Lycanthropy + Psicrystal = Lycrystal?

[Rubik]

Let's say you're a psion with a psicrystal and a psychoactive skin of proteus for always-on Metamorphosis at ML 7, which means you can let your psicrystal turn into very nearly whatever it wants that's at or less then 7 HD.

Let's also say you tell that same psicrystal to use the psychoactive skin (pskin?) to become a humanoid of its choice and send it on a mission; it chooses a halfling. It's supposed to update you regularly, with the command that if, for whatever reason, it cannot contact you, to keep going on with the mission to the best of its ability. Unfortunately, you get knocked up out for a few days, and it's the end of the lunar month, very close to a full moon.

Your humanoid-typed psicrystal gets chewed up by a were-bat, but it survives without problems. It does, however, fail its saves against lycanthropy, meaning it is now a werebat. Bats are Diminutive animals, large enough to infect a halfling, but small enough to remain viable for a Tiny psicrystal. You ordered your psicrystal to remain in its form if at all possible, and it takes your word literally, and remains humanoid long enough for the curse to become permanent.

What happens to the psicrystal once it reverts to its psicrystal form? It's possible to add templates to creatures that don't qualify by adding other templates, which may render previous templates invalid, but since they were added when they did qualify, they keep the template. Would the same situation occur here?

[khadgar567]

Let's say you're a psion with a psicrystal and a psychoactive skin of proteus for always-on Metamorphosis at ML 7, which means you can let your psicrystal turn into very nearly whatever it wants that's at or less then 7 HD.

Let's also say you tell that same psicrystal to use the psychoactive skin (pskin?) to become a humanoid of its choice and send it on a mission; it chooses a halfling. It's supposed to update you regularly, with the command that if, for whatever reason, it cannot contact you, to keep going on with the mission to the best of its ability. Unfortunately, you get knocked up out for a few days, and it's the end of the lunar month, very close to a full moon.

Your humanoid-typed psicrystal gets chewed up by a were-bat, but it survives without problems. It does, however, fail its saves against lycanthropy, meaning it is now a werebat. Bats are Diminutive animals, large enough to infect a halfling, but small enough to remain viable for a Tiny psicrystal. You ordered your psicrystal to remain in its form if at all possible, and it takes your word literally, and remains humanoid long enough for the curse to become permanent.

What happens to the psicrystal once it reverts to its psicrystal form? It's possible to add templates to creatures that don't qualify by adding other templates, which may render previous templates invalid, but since they were added when they did qualify, they keep the template. Would the same situation occur here?
one slightly insane dm realy want to see how it goes

[ben-zayb]

Isn't that the top TO for Planar Binding / Planar Ally / Spirit Binding anyway? Although Wu Jens naturally have the edge in this type of abuse, because it's easier to template stack towards a Ghost than towards an outsider.

[Rubik]

Isn't that the top TO for Planar Binding / Planar Ally / Spirit Binding anyway? Although Wu Jens naturally have the edge in this type of abuse, because it's easier to template stack towards a Ghost than towards an outsider....Are you sure you posted in the right thread? Because I don't think that post made any sense.

[ben-zayb]

...Are you sure you posted in the right thread? Because I don't think that post made any sense.

Chaining/stacking templates to meet template Type/Subtype reqs

EDIT: Oops, I thought you were asking if it's legal.

Yeah, I suppose that would work, otherwise some templates self-disqualify. You qualified once, you get the template, and then never look back

[Rubik]

Chaining/stacking templates to meet template Type/Subtype reqsThat was just a side-note, to denote that template stacking works, so this should, too.

What other templates can we push onto a psicrystal? Would the Planar Familiar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a) spell work for celestial, fiendish, anarchic, and/or axiomatic?

[khadgar567]

That was just a side-note, to denote that template stacking works, so this should, too.

What other templates can we push onto a psicrystal? Would the Planar Familiar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20011020a) spell work for celestial, fiendish, anarchic, and/or axiomatic?

meet bob the psycic and his half fiend were-chihuahua psicrystal
lol damnit

[Crake]

Well, technically, even if it becomes permament, it's still a disease. When the psicrystal goes back to being a construct, it becomes immune to diseases, and should lose the template.

That said, if I were looking for a fun way to rule it, and since it's TECHNICALLY a supernatural disease/curse, and should persist beyond just that, I would say that the crystal retains the curse, but it only affects the psicrystal while it's in humanoid form, essentially meaning any time it changes into a humanoid form, it also gains the lycanthrope template.

[ShurikVch]

What other templates can we push onto a psicrystal?In theory, any template from this list may be applied to Psicrystal which Type was temporary changed to Humanoid:Air Element Creature
Anarchic Creature
Axiomatic Creature
Blooded One
Celestial Creature
Chameleon Creature
Chosen of Bane
Cold Element Creature
Corrupted by the Abyss
Corrupted Creature
Curst
Dark Creature
Dread Warrior
Dust Stuffed
Earth Element Creature
Elder Eidolon
Entropic Creature
Faerzress-Infused Creature
Feral
Fiendish Creature
Fire Element Creature
Gravetouched Ghoul
Gravewight
Half-Elemental
Half-Farspawn
Half-Illithid
Hivenest Monster
Imix-Blooded
Madborn
Monster of Legend
Monstrous Vampire
Mulhorandi Divine Minion
Mummified Creature
Mummy, Greater
Paragon Creature
Pennaggolan
Petitioner
Phantom
Pseudonatural Creature
Pseudonatural Creature, Epic
Quorbred Creature
Reptilian Creature
Revenant
Sanctified Creature
Sepulchral Thief
Shade
Shadow Creature
Shadow-walker
Spellwarped Creature
Vampire
Vecna-Blooded
Water Element Creature
Wight
Wood Element Creature
Yuan-ti

[Rubik]

In theory, any template from this list may be applied to Psicrystal which Type was temporary changed to Humanoid:Air Element Creature
Anarchic Creature
Axiomatic Creature
Blooded One
Celestial Creature
Chameleon Creature
Chosen of Bane
Cold Element Creature
Corrupted by the Abyss
Corrupted Creature
Curst
Dark Creature
Dread Warrior
Dust Stuffed
Earth Element Creature
Elder Eidolon
Entropic Creature
Faerzress-Infused Creature
Feral
Fiendish Creature
Fire Element Creature
Gravetouched Ghoul
Gravewight
Half-Elemental
Half-Farspawn
Half-Illithid
Hivenest Monster
Imix-Blooded
Madborn
Monster of Legend
Monstrous Vampire
Mulhorandi Divine Minion
Mummified Creature
Mummy, Greater
Paragon Creature
Pennaggolan
Petitioner
Phantom
Pseudonatural Creature
Pseudonatural Creature, Epic
Quorbred Creature
Reptilian Creature
Revenant
Sanctified Creature
Sepulchral Thief
Shade
Shadow Creature
Shadow-walker
Spellwarped Creature
Vampire
Vecna-Blooded
Water Element Creature
Wight
Wood Element Creature
Yuan-tiI don't think the question is "which templates are applied to a human?" so much as "which templates can be acquired and applied after the fact?"

[ShurikVch]

I don't think the question is "which templates are applied to a human?" so much as "which templates can be acquired and applied after the fact?"Technically, - any.
Check Major Rituals in Savage Species.
Besides it, Nar Fiendbond may give it Half-Fiend template, and Shrouds of the Unholy (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) - any Undead template

[unseenmage]

Well, technically, even if it becomes permament, it's still a disease. When the psicrystal goes back to being a construct, it becomes immune to diseases, and should lose the template.

That said, if I were looking for a fun way to rule it, and since it's TECHNICALLY a supernatural disease/curse, and should persist beyond just that, I would say that the crystal retains the curse, but it only affects the psicrystal while it's in humanoid form, essentially meaning any time it changes into a humanoid form, it also gains the lycanthrope template.

I know for a fact that spells do not work this way so there is precedent for the effect persisting after the type change.

For example, the Greater Humanoid Essence spell can also be used to temporarily make the Psicrystal into a Humanoid. This change makes it count as a living thing, makes it susceptible to mind affecting and diseases too. All simply due to the type change. Meaning you can hit the Construct with Telepathic Bond (as an example of a mind affecting spell) while it is a Humanoid.

The Telepathic Bond will be retained after the construct turns back into a Construct.
Why?
Because if spells became inviolate simply due to a change of creature type then the Greater Humanoid Essence spell would cease to function itself as soon as it took effect if type change negated spells.

Now this being a mystical disease it is new territory but as was stated in the OP templates are not feats, they don't care how they got where they are, they just do the thing they do and keep on keeping on.

The real danger here is using spells to buff and change a base creature before applying templates. If temporary magical changes persist in template application then why not Bull's Strength before Incarnate Construct so the resultant creature's Str is higher? Why not Gorillon Arms on the resultant Humanoid before building an Effigy of that?
The above are just crude examples of course but trust me that it gets real weird real fast.

Because I delved into this facet of template stacking purely from the angle of Effigy/Elder Eidolon construction I used the workaround that any spell which would cease to function if the creature died couldn't be carried over into Constructs made of that creature.

[atemu1234]

one slightly insane dm realy want to see how it goes

Same, really. Though I crossed the line for 'slightly' a ways back.

[ShurikVch]

For example, the Greater Humanoid Essence spell can also be used to temporarily make the Psicrystal into a Humanoid. This change makes it count as a living thingSmall correction: despite Greater Humanoid Essence indeed can temporarily make the Psicrystal into a Humanoid, it don't make it a "living thing"
D&D Glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_living&alpha=):
living

Any creature with a Constitution score is a living creature. Constructs and undead are not living creatures.
Source: MM3Psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm):
Con Ø (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#constitution)

[unseenmage]

Small correction: despite Greater Humanoid Essence indeed can temporarily make the Psicrystal into a Humanoid, it don't make it a "living thing"
D&D Glossary (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_living&alpha=):Psicrystal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/psicrystal.htm):

Except that all humanoids are living. On mobile so can't quote right now but as per the last time I asked about this specific things in the RAW Q&A thread they count as living.

Even part of what you quoted was referring to creature type as the determining factor.

[ShurikVch]

Except that all humanoids are living. On mobile so can't quote right nowSo I will wait, because I pretty sure there is no such rule

Even part of what you quoted was referring to creature type as the determining factor.No. It very specifically referred to Con score.
Types, which were mentioned as example, don't contradicting, but rather emphasing it - neither Undead, nor "normal" Constructs have Con score

[Stegyre]

RAW problems I am seeing:

Let's say you're a psion with a psicrystal and a psychoactive skin of proteus for always-on Metamorphosis at ML 7, which means you can let your psicrystal turn into very nearly whatever it wants that's at or less then 7 HD.
No. Share powers is only for "powers you manifest on yourself (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm#psicrystals)." A Skin of Proteus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus) does not allow you to manifest Metamorphosis; it " affects the wearer as the metamorphosis power."

Solution: be a 7th level Egoist (or some other psionic character who gets Metamorphosis by means of Expanded Knowledge or (personal favorite) Psychic Chirurgery.

Alternative solution: just give the skin to your psicrystal. As a construct, it is a D&D "creature," and I don't think any rule bars it from using the "skin," itself. Because of the duration and range problems (below), this is probably the best solution.


Let's also say you tell that same psicrystal to use the psychoactive skin (pskin?) to become a humanoid of its choice and send it on a mission; it chooses a halfling. It's supposed to update you regularly, with the command that if, for whatever reason, it cannot contact you, to keep going on with the mission to the best of its ability. Unfortunately, you get knocked up out for a few days, and it's the end of the lunar month, very close to a full moon.

Wait: you just sent it away? As soon as it is not within 5' of you, it loses the Metamorphosis benefit: "If the power has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the psicrystal if it moves farther than 5 feet away, and will not affect the psicrystal again, even if it returns to its owner before the duration expires."

Solution: new mission is to guard and protect you while you are "knocked out."


Your humanoid-typed psicrystal gets chewed up by a were-bat, but it survives without problems. It does, however, fail its saves against lycanthropy, meaning it is now a werebat. Bats are Diminutive animals, large enough to infect a halfling, but small enough to remain viable for a Tiny psicrystal. You ordered your psicrystal to remain in its form if at all possible, and it takes your word literally, and remains humanoid long enough for the curse to become permanent.
A: That's an incredibly long duration. (Since you cannot use the skin, this is a problem.)

B: Once it transforms, it becomes an "NPC," which technically, it already is, but in this instance, having lost all knowledge of its own identity -- and your orders -- it almost certainly wanders out of the 5' range and loses metamorphosis.

Solution: it's wearing the Skin, itself, as discussed above.


What happens to the psicrystal once it reverts to its psicrystal form? It's possible to add templates to creatures that don't qualify by adding other templates, which may render previous templates invalid, but since they were added when they did qualify, they keep the template. Would the same situation occur here?
That's an invalid example: this is not a case of template stacking, as metamorphosis is not a template.
The spell example, offered by unseenmage, is likewise invalid: it's not a spell.
These things may be useful analogies for how it should work, but they are not RAW.
Rules Compendium is a little help: "[C]reatures can be immune to disease according to their description or type." (RC at 46) As the psicrystal is immune to lycanthropy in its native type, that would seem to imply it loses the lycanthropy template as soon as it turns back. As there is no mechanism for regaining the template by changing back to an eligible type, the template would be permanently lost. I think this is how I would rule it as a DM -- but the RAW is pretty thin.

I think that's all I've got.

[Rubik]

RAW problems I am seeing:

No. Share powers is only for "powers you manifest on yourself (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm#psicrystals)." A Skin of Proteus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#skinofProteus) does not allow you to manifest Metamorphosis; it " affects the wearer as the metamorphosis power."

Solution: be a 7th level Egoist (or some other psionic character who gets Metamorphosis by means of Expanded Knowledge or (personal favorite) Psychic Chirurgery.

Alternative solution: just give the skin to your psicrystal. As a construct, it is a D&D "creature," and I don't think any rule bars it from using the "skin," itself. Because of the duration and range problems (below), this is probably the best solution.Why are you telling me something that's already part of what you're quoting? Have the psicrystal wear the skin.


Wait: you just sent it away? As soon as it is not within 5' of you, it loses the Metamorphosis benefit: "If the power has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the psicrystal if it moves farther than 5 feet away, and will not affect the psicrystal again, even if it returns to its owner before the duration expires."No. It's wearing the skin, so it doesn't lose anything.


Solution: new mission is to guard and protect you while you are "knocked out."It's already well away and acting on its master's commands.


A: That's an incredibly long duration. (Since you cannot use the skin, this is a problem.)The psicrystal is fully capable of using the skin, as you pointed out to someone who was already doing that exact thing in the post you're responding to.


B: Once it transforms, it becomes an "NPC," which technically, it already is, but in this instance, having lost all knowledge of its own identity -- and your orders -- it almost certainly wanders out of the 5' range and loses metamorphosis....whut. Why would it become an NPC just because it's using Metamorphosis? A psicrystal only exists because it is part of you, and it keeps its granted abilities no matter the form, because that's YOUR ability, not the psicrystal's, which you're still giving to it while it's transformed. It retains its own mind and purpose, because Metamorphosis doesn't override any of that.


Solution: it's wearing the Skin, itself, as discussed above.Yeah. Just like what I was referring to in the first post.


That's an invalid example: this is not a case of template stacking, as metamorphosis is not a template.
The spell example, offered by unseenmage, is likewise invalid: it's not a spell.
These things may be useful analogies for how it should work, but they are not RAW.
Rules Compendium is a little help: "[C]reatures can be immune to disease according to their description or type." (RC at 46) As the psicrystal is immune to lycanthropy in its native type, that would seem to imply it loses the lycanthropy template as soon as it turns back. As there is no mechanism for regaining the template by changing back to an eligible type, the template would be permanently lost. I think this is how I would rule it as a DM -- but the RAW is pretty thin.You can still be affected by something you're immune to if you weren't immune when you were affected by it. For instance, Dominate Person prior to Polymorphing into a hydra.


I think that's all I've got.It's what I had before you proceeded to "correct" me with exactly what I was saying in the beginning.

[Stegyre]

Why are you telling me something that's already part of what you're quoting? Have the psicrystal wear the skin.
You're right. That was a reading failure and erroneous assumption on my part.


...whut. Why would it become an NPC just because it's using Metamorphosis? A psicrystal only exists because it is part of you, and it keeps its granted abilities no matter the form, because that's YOUR ability, not the psicrystal's, which you're still giving to it while it's transformed. It retains its own mind and purpose, because Metamorphosis doesn't override any of that.
"When a character contracts lycanthropy through a lycanthrope’s bite (see above), no symptoms appear until the first night of the next full moon. On that night, the afflicted character involuntarily assumes animal form and forgets his or her own identity, temporarily becoming an NPC." From the SRD entry on Lycanthropes. However, this point was only raised on the premise that the psicrystal needed to remain within the 5' range to share powers, so it is moot.


You can still be affected by something you're immune to if you weren't immune when you were affected by it. For instance, Dominate Person prior to Polymorphing into a hydra.
You have a RAW source for this? Certain spells and other effects expressly continue even when suppressed (such as by an AMF or a protection from X spell, but these examples are called out in the text.

I still come back to my original conclusion that changing back to the original type, which is immune to the disease, breaks the curse.

But that said, I don't think RAW demands that conclusion: I don't think RAW clearly addresses the issue.

[unseenmage]

So I will wait, because I pretty sure there is no such rule
No. It very specifically referred to Con score.
Types, which were mentioned as example, don't contradicting, but rather emphasing it - neither Undead, nor "normal" Constructs have Con score

Here's the relevant RAW Q&A question (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15539181&postcount=668) and answer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15539602&postcount=669) for what its worth.

At the bottom of the Humanoid type is the evidence for all Humanoids being living things,


Humanoids breathe, eat, and sleep.


Yes it isn't clear cut but the idea that all humanoids mystically require food, drink, and breath seems much stranger to me than the idea that only Constructs affected by Greater Humanoid Essence can have no Con and still be alive.

In either case we're deep into DM fiat territory due to a poorly worded spell.