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Amiria
2007-06-06, 04:05 AM
Ok, I've ordered the book and it arrived yesterday ! I didn't expect it to be here so fast in Germany. :smallsmile: Anyone else ? Opinions ?

I never played the old D20 Star Wars RPG before, only a few sessions of the old Westend Games RPG. I also never played D20 Modern or Future so I'm quite confused about all the unknown stuff. But it seems to be a good system, easier and more streamlined (compared to D&D).

The square format is ... cuddly. The layout is a bit confusing but still ok, the artwork is good. There is an index, but it isn't very extensive.

Plenty of races, only 5 base classes but they are very customizable with oodles of feats and different talent trees. There are a dozen prestige classes.

The vehicle section is definitely too small, although it of course covers material from all the movies and the time of the Yuuzhan Vong wars (I didn't read those books so far). There are no A-Wings, B-Wings or TIE Bombers, and the only two capital ships are the Correlian Corvette and the Imperial I-class Star Destroyer. So I expect that they'll release a splatbook with additional vehicles and equipment.

The Galactic Gazeteer is only basic, bare bones information. So there there I also expect a splatbook with more information.

----------

Specific question, since I try to get into the system by making a 4th level Twi'lek Jedi:

The Jedi base class gets the lowest base class skills (2+Int). They are also the only class with Use the Force as a class skill. However, every Jedi will take the Force Sensitivity feat to be able to use the Use the Force skill. And with that they'll get Use the Force as a class skill anyway.

So a Jedi doesn't have to take Use the Force as one of his base skills but can rather take it with the Force sensitivity feat and so virtually bumps up his skills to 3+Int. Is this right ?

Jimbob
2007-06-06, 04:23 AM
I will start off by saying I love starwars D20. I have DMed for over a year with 5 players and we all loved it, there are so many things you can do and you can really get into your characters.

There is a vehicle splat book, but I dont have my books on me so I cant tell you the name. the only thing that it is 3.0 not 3.5.

You can easily change the square format. We use the square ince by ince table matt and we had no problems what so ever. There are many more reference books with more races in, or you can download the SRD which contains most of the other books.

And to answere your question. I thought a jedi got the Force sensitivity feat for free? But I might be wrong. But I defo knwo it does not increase the amount of skills you get. It just opens up the different types of force skills you can use, either dark side or light side. Hope that helps. But if im wrong then I am sorry (for any one who is going to prove me wrong):smalltongue:

Kiero
2007-06-06, 07:19 AM
I'll have a browse of the book when I'm in the comic shop picking up Flashpoint at the weekend.

Given there are "only" 5 classes, the game is built with the understanding that there will be a lot of multiclassing.

Zincorium
2007-06-06, 08:37 AM
I'll have a browse of the book when I'm in the comic shop picking up Flashpoint at the weekend.

Given there are "only" 5 classes, the game is built with the understanding that there will be a lot of multiclassing.

I really didn't get that, if you've played D20 Modern at all, the talent tree system they've stated as a major component of the class system should be pretty familiar. However, it's what they're saying that it represents is where the real differentiation will come in. Yeah, you only have five classes, but you can play the same class multiple ways that while similar are also distinct and blendable. That'll actually add a lot more life to the system overall, and if they're doing it the same way that d20 modern did, there won't be nearly as many dead levels.


Personally, I'm just waiting for my copy to get here so I can see what's up for myself. Chances are slim I'll be able to play much right now, but I'd at least like to learn the system.

Theodoxus
2007-06-06, 09:31 AM
I think by 'square format' he means the book, which is, oddly, square. Very squat.

I looked it over at my local gaming shop, with the intention of buying it - but the $40 price for such a small book made me halt in my tracks.

I'll pick it up if I get into a game, but for now, I'm giving it a pass.

The J Pizzel
2007-06-06, 09:48 AM
I've had it for two days now and we played a skimish last night. I made a Soldier and the DM/player made a Jedi. We loved it. The first and foremost problem we have is that it uses a different pattern then DnD (not that that's wrong, it's just not what we're used to). DnD uses a -2, -4 progression. Saga uses a -2,-5,-10 progression...takes a little getting used too. The multiple base attacks being gone is different. But they make up for it with escalating damage based on level and new feats such as double attack, triple attack, deadeye, and the duel weapon mastery tree. The weapons are extremely basic and combat is so streamlined, we honestly felt we were forgetting stuff in our little skirmish. For those who've played KotoR, you'll recognize some feats and stuff from there. One thing I like'd right off the bat was the different attack options. Once you get some feats under your belt, there's lot of different attacks one can do, and trust me, you get a metric ton of feats in this game. I don't mean, grapple or disarm or trip, I mean attacks with your weapon. The autofire and burst fire is extremely easier then SWd20. All in all, I'm extremely happy with the changes. The only thing we haven't touched yet is vehicle combat, although it looks easy as well. And now, a word on talents:

Talents are (IMO) the coolest thing I've ever seen. There pretty much class ablilities that you get to choose. In DnD one has 40 classes where two or three are slightly different due to class abilities (ex. ranger and scout), and you have to choose which one is right for you based on those abilities and fluff. Now, you pick a basic idea and choose the talents (class abilities) you want. Combine those with an @$$load of feats and you honestly have a lot of options.

So far, I'm not real impressed with the Force powers (although Jedi are still pretty cool). There aren't many force powers to choose from (though I'm sure a supplement will take care of that in no time) and you only get a few anyway. They're treated like maneuvers from ToB. You get them every encounter, expend during the fighting, and meditate to get them back afterward. The "force" talent trees are pretty cool though.

Character creations is extremely easy and fast. The new Fort/Ref/Will defense is a little odd, but we're getting used to it. The threshold thing is just annoying to keep up with, but it's pretty cool. The game really utilizes the swift action. There are craploads of things you can do with swift actions to improve you game. Aim, autofire, brace your gun, recover. All in all, so far, I give it a stong 8 out of 10.

I've got a pretty good understanding of the rules already (I've been reading it at the office, lunch breaks, and home for two days now) so if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask.

Amiria
2007-06-06, 12:13 PM
I think by 'square format' he means the book, which is, oddly, square. Very squat.

Indeed, that's what I tried to express.

@ Jimbob: No, Jedi don't get the Force Sensitivity feat for free, which is odd since they get Use the Force as a class skill but can't use it without the feat.

@ jpbooth: What's your opinion to my question in the first post ?

LongVin
2007-06-06, 12:52 PM
I'm confused how they are using force points in the game. You get 5 force points a level plus half your level. Now everyone gets force points and can use them(which I think is BS) and unless I read it wrong, every time you use the force it takes up a force point.

So that means at level ten a Jedi can only use the force ten times?

Amiria
2007-06-06, 12:57 PM
You get those 5+ force points at every level anew (the unused from your last level disappear). There are also a feat that gives you extra force points per level and some force talent that lets you regain one more force points.

Yes, everyone can use force points, and everyone with the Force Sensitivity feat can use the Use the Force skill. But only the true force classes (Jedi, Jedi Knight, Sith Apprentice, Force Adept, etc) can use the force for the cool Jedi stuff.

The J Pizzel
2007-06-06, 01:01 PM
Hey dear, you do get Force Sensitivity for free. It's in the starting feats for Jedi. Page 39 right next to the woman in the pictures elbow under starting feats. So you still only get to be trained in 2+int modifier. Also, keep in mind a having a class skill, and being trained in a class skill is separate. "Use the Force" is a class skill yes, but you have to select it as a trained skill to get the +5 bonus and to be able to use certain benefits of the skill. Taking the feat "Force Sensitivity" make the "'Use the Force" skill a class skill for other characters, the ones who don't start with it. Hope this helps. Let me know if you have any more quesions.

jp

Closet_Skeleton
2007-06-06, 01:02 PM
The autofire and burst fire is extremely easier then SWd20. All in all, I'm extremely happy with the changes. The only thing we haven't touched yet is vehicle combat, although it looks easy as well. And now, a word on talents:

Talents are (IMO) the coolest thing I've ever seen. There pretty much class ablilities that you get to choose. In DnD one has 40 classes where two or three are slightly different due to class abilities (ex. ranger and scout), and you have to choose which one is right for you based on those abilities and fluff. Now, you pick a basic idea and choose the talents (class abilities) you want.

Those are both taken from d20 modern. Everyone hates the d20 modern autofire and burstfire rules but I honestly like them. Apart from how evasion makes you eventually immune to autofire.

I'm thinking of buying this. I might be getting a bit of money if I pass my exams so I could spend that.

I think force points are actually like action points and have nothing to do with force powers. I'm just guessing from the fact that Urban Arcana's action point system was apparently adapted from d20 Starwars and you get them at level up.

Amiria
2007-06-06, 01:04 PM
Uups, you're right, thanks. Where did I have my eyes ? Now everything makes sense again.


I think force points are actually like action points and have nothing to do with force powers. I'm just guessing from the fact that Urban Arcana's action point system was apparently adapted from d20 Starwars and you get them at level up.

Yes, they are mostly like action points.

The J Pizzel
2007-06-06, 01:06 PM
On Force Points:

Everyone get FP to represent the idea of "fate" and "the force" working through even people who normally wouldn't know it. Using a force point for non-jedi is simply rolling a d6 and adding the result to a previous roll for extra help. Also, you can spend a FP to stop from dying. And yes, you get new FP's every level.

For jedi - not all force power require you to use a FP. However, most have an option that if you do spend a FP, you can get some extra cool stuff on your power. For example: force disarm allows you to use a "use the force" check instead of an attack roll to disarm someone. You can use a FP to destroy the weapon if you'd like.

@Amiria Actually anyone can use the force powers. All you have to do is take the "Force Sensitivity" feat. Then take the "Force Training" feat. That lets you learn 1+wis mod force powers. Bottom of page 95 under "Force Powers" for reference.

jp

Pokemaster
2007-06-06, 01:50 PM
Force Points don't really offer much besides a 1d6 boost to your d20 checks for most people, but if you decide to specialize in Force-using prestige classes, they become a lot more useful, since they're required to activate most of their abilities.

What I like most about Saga is that it's very friendly towards Force users and multiclassing. Under the old set of rules, Force powers were considered skills, so Force-using classes had about 30-40 class skills depending on which rulebooks you had available, so you either had a character who was weak with a lot of Force powers, or a character who was strong with a very limited number of Force powers. Plus, most of the Force skills were only class skills for Force-using classes, so if you wanted to multiclass, you'd inevitably lag behind pure Force users (kinda like multiclassing a Wizard into a Fighter).

In Saga, the Force was condensed enough that you could create a character who is extremely powerful in the Force without sacrificing too much of your other skills, and multiclassing has no penalties to it. If you wanted to make a Jedi who used a quarterstaff exlusively, you could make a level 7 Soldier and then pick up the Jedi Knight Prestige Class and all it would cost you would be the Feat slots for Force Sensitive and Weapon Proficiency (lightsaber) (which your GM would probably drop) to meet the requirements. If you wanted to make a Jedi general, you could easily take a few levels of Noble and officer and pick up some abilities that would boost your troops.

In the unlikely event that you don't want to play a Jedi, the other four classes are much, much better than they were under the old rules. The Soldier and Scoundrel were pretty much direct ports of the Fighter and Rogue classes, the Scout was kind of a cross between the Ranger and the Barbarian and the Noble was only useful for its few minor buffs. Now, Soldiers are much, much more customizable depending on what kind of Soldier you want (armored Mandalorian shock trooper versus light Echani martial artists for example), Scoundrels have a more science fiction feel to them, Scouts are still similar to Rangers and Barbarians, but they're also the only class left that can cover primitive cultures like Ewoks and Sandpeople, so I can see where that comes from. The Noble still has a bunch of minor buffs available, but they also have talents that can set them apart, so you could use the class to make diplomats, military officers or heirs to a massive mercantile empire.

These rules are just so awesome. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I did, in fact, mean Force Points in the first paragraph.

The J Pizzel
2007-06-06, 01:58 PM
Couldn't have said it better my self. I love the new rules. We're playing again tonight. I'm gonna get so burnt out if I don't stop. hehe.

jp

Amiria
2007-06-06, 02:28 PM
Force Powers don't really offer much besides a 1d6 boost to your d20 checks for most people, but if you decide to specialize in Force-using prestige classes, they become a lot more useful, since they're required to activate most of their abilities.

Force Points, not Force Powers. Force Powers are the true Jedi-like stuff.

I'm not so sure if it is a good idea to give all heroes such easy access to force powers (just Force Sensitivity and Force Training feats necessary). It would be a weird campaign if there are no Jedi players but all the characters from the soldier to the noble can still force choke people and play jedi mind-tricks and communcicate telepathically across the galaxy.

The J Pizzel
2007-06-06, 02:59 PM
Yeah, I thought it was kinda weird as well. I would think you'd have to have some levels in Jedi or something use force powers. Oh well. If I have a player playing a soldier or something and takes the Force Sensitivity and Force Training feats to get some force powers, I'll simply make him role-play that out.

Kiero
2007-06-06, 08:16 PM
Yeah, I thought it was kinda weird as well. I would think you'd have to have some levels in Jedi or something use force powers. Oh well. If I have a player playing a soldier or something and takes the Force Sensitivity and Force Training feats to get some force powers, I'll simply make him role-play that out.

Don't see anything wrong with it, myself. The Force Traditions aren't the only way of using the Force, so why should you have to have Jedi levels to have powers? Might be a more efficient route, but this sounds much more flexible.

SpiderBrigade
2007-06-06, 08:27 PM
Yeah, I mean the canon is full of people who for whatever reason are just finding out that they have potential to use the Force, right? The fact that most of them then go on to be Jedi is mostly about plot. What if Leia were so repulsed by the monstrous evil of Vader that she in no way would want to be a Jedi? She'd still have some potential to tap into the Force, just without all that useful training.

Pokemaster
2007-06-06, 08:29 PM
I don't think it's going to be much of a problem. If you're not planning on picking up Force-using prestige classes at some point, then you probably won't have enough resources to spend on the Force to make it worth it, and if you do plan on picking up one of the prestige classes, then you're basically just making a Force adept.

jkdjr25
2007-06-06, 10:40 PM
I haven't seen the book yet and I'm not entirely sure I'll be buying it. I kept trying to like the D20 Star Wars books but, for me anyways, they never really held a candle to the WEG D6 version. The older version always seemed more cinematic to me in that I didn't have to gear a character to do a particular thing from level one.

If I wanted to run across the room, up a table, jump through the air while firing my pistols I just had a higher target number; I didn't need to have acrobatic charge, leap attack and x ranks in jump and tumble.

Just personal taste I suppose.

Amiria
2007-06-07, 12:32 PM
I tried to get around the low skill points of the Jedi by starting with one level in another class - taking Force Sensitivity as a first-level feat - and then going into Jedi, taking lightsaber proficiency as the single multi-class feat. But it is a very double-edged sword.

You get more skills (3 or 4 with my favorite choice, the Scoundrel and the Scout), some ranged weapon proficiencies and one talent, but in most cases you lose BAB and hit points, you always lose one feat that you could have used for Force Training or something similar and you simply lag one level behind of a single-class Jedi.

I'd probably do it with a human Jedi character but with a non-human the lost feat really hurts. Especially since Force Training isn't on the Jedi Bonus Feat list, they must buy it with their level feats (1, 3, 6, etc).

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-08, 02:56 AM
Meh, I'd say that with the Skill Groups sytem, Jedi aren't really that hard-pressed for skills. Since you get +1 to 2 different attributes at each 4-level interval now, there's no excuse to not have 12 Intelligence, easy. If you're a human, that's 4 class skills for a Jedi already. Use the Force, Acrobatics, Initiative, and one more to suit taste and you've got yourself a pretty typical combat Jedi.

Love the new streamlined vehicle/starship combat rules. Took the best stuff from Hero's Guide and reworked the basic mechanic to something that could feasibly be done in the mind's eye (without a few battle grids and 2 pounds of miniatures).

Reading over everything, I was somewhat concerned that Jedi have kind of taken a step-ahead of the other classes in terms of power. Reading that a Jedi can crush your weapon using Force Disarm bothered me; thankfully I realized that since it follows the rules for standard disarming to determine success, so the odds are stacked against success versus someone of your own level (or close). However, being able to block/parry any form of attack as a reaction is a pretty powerful ability that only the fiercest of soldiers (or of course another Jedi) could hope to overcome. Also with a wise selection of Jedi talents and Knight talents could pretty much guarantee you a free +6 to your Reflex defense. At least the old days of free increases to Lightsabre damage are gone. Also, a couple of new weapons balance out the playing field when it comes to sheer power (heavy blaster rifle, anyone?).

Sadly, in a complete contradiction to myself I actually approve of the upgrade Dark Siders have received. Getting Force Choke's damage to be based on your skill roll = Vader ACTUALLY being able to kill his officers quickly as he did in the movies. Force Lightning also gets a significant upgrade from the ol' "3d8 damage and your skill check determines save DC".

I guess the Jedi aren't super-overpowered though - I have to balance them against the rest of the new rules. I mean come on, who doesn't see the "Extra Second Wind" feat as being problematic?

Really, I think that I'm overreacting this early on. The big thing that I've noticed is that although several things APPEAR to be overpowered, I think it's more due to game mechanic-inflation. The entire game is centered around fewer high-score numbers, as opposed to several varying-score numbers in the old system.

Despite me casting a wary eye towards the strength of Force users, all in all I like reading the new changes and hope they make for a more cinematic, exciting gameplay. And although I'll never play a Wookie in my life, it's about damned time they received a racial bonus to Constitution! Justice is served!

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-08, 10:40 AM
Picked up the book last week, but only had time to look at it yesterday. I must say, I'm quite impressed! I loved the talent system in d20 Modern, and it's great here. It's a good way to lower the amount of base classes, but still have alot of variety between them.

I also like how the Force powers took a Tome of Battle route: they're all available once per encounter (though there are ways to get them back). As the above poster mentioned, it's good that Force Grip and Force Lightning got a boost (they were somewhat weak in the previous version).

The whole second wind rule allows for more 'heroic' fights, since goons can't use it, but enemies with regular class levels can. I also makes cleave useful, since high level mooks don't have high HP.

prufock
2007-06-08, 11:50 AM
I've played in a couple Star Wars d20 games, and I'm currently GMing one. We've enjoyed it, and we haven't had any major problems with the mechanics - though like any game, we apply quite a few house rules.

Is there anything improved in this book to the extent that it would justify spending the 35+ bucks to buy it? In the end I know it's a personal preference, but how does this stack up against the previous version?

Holocron Coder
2007-06-08, 12:34 PM
Bought the book myself yesterday and, IMO, it is a vast improvement over the last version. If you like the format of ToB or d20 Modern, you'll definitely appreciate the new Saga Edition.

Can't wait to think up a game to DM in this edition :)

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-08, 12:35 PM
I've played in a couple Star Wars d20 games, and I'm currently GMing one. We've enjoyed it, and we haven't had any major problems with the mechanics - though like any game, we apply quite a few house rules.

Is there anything improved in this book to the extent that it would justify spending the 35+ bucks to buy it? In the end I know it's a personal preference, but how does this stack up against the previous version?

I believe this version changes so many things that even if you DON'T like one or two new rules, the rest will still overwhelmingly win you over.

The Force:
If you like having Force users in your games, buying Sagas is pretty much the best thing you could do. Using Force powers/abilities was completely revamped from Revised Core, and it's more realistic and useful now.

Armor:
Armor: vastly underused item in Star Wars d20. In Sagas, it can be useful. Its potential is greatest at the lowest levels, but it can at least be fairly useful well up to level 12 or 13. Rather than giving DR as the old armor rules did, new armor adds to your Reflex Defense (think of it as deflecting shots) and Fortitude Defense (think of it as absorbing the impact). As you gain higher levels your Reflex Defense would be higher unarmored, but that Fortitude Defense is always useful. Anything that bumps up that damage threshold is a winner to me! More on that in the next paragraph. If you're a soldier who specializes in armor, however, armor becomes INSANELY USEFUL! Yes, Boba Fett is a monster in the new rules. Don't you love it?! I know I do.

Combat/Death:
I also think the new combat makes for more believable fights. In the old rules (and in D&D for that matter), your character is assumed to be perfectly fine until reaching 0 hp. Maximum efficiency until death. With the new rules, you can suffer temporary negative conditions pretty frequently. You recover from those conditions pretty quickly - they're just a fun handicap to have in a heated battle.

If character death (or NPC death, for that matter) has been a major problem for you and your players, Sagas is also a winner. The only way to "die" is either A. be on the business-end of a coup de grace or B. be reduced to 0 HP (there is no "less" anymore) by an attack that exceeds your characters "damage threshold". Damage threshold is a minimum numerical amount of damage you can take in one hit and be affected by a negative condition (this threshold increases with levels and there are feats that boost it). Even if you ARE hit with an attack that should kill you (except for coup de grace), you can spend a Force Point as a reaction to simply drop you to 0hp and make you unconscious. It's possible to die from lack of stabilization (I'm oversimplifying that, but bear with me), so surgery is STILL a life-saver if you've been hurt really bad.

Differences in power based on level:
Speaking of which, Sagas also makes you get more "bang" for each level than the old rules. Your character level (or 1/2 your character level) is applied to practically EVERYTHING. Now, if you take a level 6 soldier and a level 10 soldier, took away all their gear, and had them duke it out, the level 10 would OBLITERATE the 6 rather than having a 20-round long war of attrition that the level 9 would slowly win.

However, there's still a chance of being brought down by hordes of stinky-level opponents, though! A roll of 20 is now a Crit, no confirmation required. So high level characters are still warmachines on legs, but they can be killed if they try to take on too many weaker foes.

The rules for autofiring weapons are a lot easier (and more interesting, if you ask me). There are a few new weapons that let your typical non-Jedi character put out good damage as well. Character customization is easier than ever with the talent system. You don't even NEED the archetypes from Hero's Guide anymore to build exactly what you want.

All in all, Sagas edition is, by my opinion, a really good purchase. Keep an eye on all of those hokey religions and ancient weapons, though, as they may outshine other PCs of equal class level in several instances.

The J Pizzel
2007-06-08, 01:51 PM
I've expressed by fondness for the game in an earlier post. But let me reiterate my enthusiasm for this game. This game "beats the living ****t" out of the Revised d20. The Jedi are balanced with the other classes. Spealized Jedi come in the form of talent trees and PrC's, not base classes. Starship combat is (to everyone's liking) vastly improved from the original. You can go from starship fighting to hero fighting every round and not get confused. Droids are a playable option now, and a damn good one at that. Force powers are downright awesome and the way they've been implemented (the yse the ToB method) depict the movies beautifully. I just can't tell you how pleased I am with the new book. Nobles are actually worth a damn with thier awesome talent trees. The "Use the Force" check allows you to to basic force stuff while not making one overly powerful (that's what Force Powers are for). We all bought the original d20 and couldn't stand it. Me and the other GM had a few doubts about this one, but now we can't wait to start playing. So worth the 40 bucks.

pizzel

prufock
2007-06-08, 02:09 PM
Thanks guys! If my funds allow it, I'll likely pick up the Saga edition, even though I DO like the Revised d20 edition.

MaxMahem
2007-06-09, 12:46 AM
Reading over everything, I was somewhat concerned that Jedi have kind of taken a step-ahead of the other classes in terms of power. Reading that a Jedi can crush your weapon using Force Disarm bothered me; thankfully I realized that since it follows the rules for standard disarming to determine success, so the odds are stacked against success versus someone of your own level (or close). However, being able to block/parry any form of attack as a reaction is a pretty powerful ability that only the fiercest of soldiers (or of course another Jedi) could hope to overcome. Also with a wise selection of Jedi talents and Knight talents could pretty much guarantee you a free +6 to your Reflex defense. At least the old days of free increases to Lightsabre damage are gone. Also, a couple of new weapons balance out the playing field when it comes to sheer power (heavy blaster rifle, anyone?).

I mostly agree with you're statements, Jedi are much more balanced compared to other classes then they were, but are still probably marginally the most powerful combat class in the game, at least if you build one focused that way. The only class that come close is the Soldier going forward towards Gunslinger or Elite Soldier (probably both). A high level Jedi will probably be slightly more deadly in melee combat, then a high level soldier/gunslinger will be in ranged combat. The soldier will probably have an advantage in versatility in terms of skills/feats while the jedi will have his force powers to slightly counter that.

All that said, I belive it is possible to build a totaly non-jedi build that can rival them in melee power, behold the unstopable (well for lvl 3 at least) KT-421

KT-241 CL 3
Medium 5th Degree Droid Soldier 3
Destiny 2; Force 5
Init +8; Senses low-light vision; Perception +4
Languages Basic, Binary (does not use)

Defenses Ref 16 (flat-footed 14), Fort 19, Will 14
hp 41; Threshold 19

Speed 6 squares
Melee unarmed +7 (1d4+5)
Melee lightsaber +8 (2d8+12) or
Melee lightsaber +8 (3d8+12) with Mighty Swing
Ranged by weapon +5 (rarely uses)
Base Atk +3; Grp +7
Atk Options Mighty Swing

Abilities Str 19, Dex 14, Con -, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 6
Talents Weapon Specilization (lightsaber), Melee Smash
Feats Mighty Swing, Weapon Focus (lightsaber), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (lightsaber), Soldier Bonus Feats
Skills Initiative +8, Jump +10 (may take 10, may reroll and take better result), Knowledge (the force) +0, Perception +4, Use the Force -
Systems walking locomotion, 2 hand appendages, locked acess, improved sensors, commlink, jump servos, vocabulator, heuristic processor, secondary battery
Possessions "Jedi robes", lightsaber, utility belt

KT-241 suffers from the delusion that he is a jedi, and really it's probably best not to argue with him on the subject.

In comparison to Jedi of equal level KT-241 is probably slightly superior. He is down one feat in comparison (due to weapon prof for lightsaber), but has Melee Smash to compensate. He is lower on HP, but higher on stats (and immunities) due to being a droid. He is low on skills, but any Jedi with stats close to his are likely to be even worse off. As he advances he will probably go for devastating attack and stunning attack on offence, likely exceding a Jedi's options, and will take the armor talents for defense (where he may end up behind).

On the whole though it looks fairly balanced to me. Soldiers and Jedi's can both be devestating in combat, but they have to sacrifice some of their potential flexibility to do so.

Dervag
2007-06-09, 03:59 AM
Those are both taken from d20 modern. Everyone hates the d20 modern autofire and burstfire rules but I honestly like them. Apart from how evasion makes you eventually immune to autofire.Standard movie convention, that. If someone hoses down an area with a submachine gun, they practically never hit an important character


All that said, I belive it is possible to build a totaly non-jedi build that can rival them in melee power, behold the unstopable (well for lvl 3 at least) KT-421

KT-241 CL 3
Medium 5th Degree Droid Soldier 3
Destiny 2; Force 5
Init +8; Senses low-light vision; Perception +4
Languages Basic, Binary (does not use)

Defenses Ref 16 (flat-footed 14), Fort 19, Will 14
hp 41; Threshold 19

Speed 6 squares
Melee unarmed +7 (1d4+5)
Melee lightsaber +8 (2d8+12) or
Melee lightsaber +8 (3d8+12) with Mighty Swing
Ranged by weapon +5 (rarely uses)
Base Atk +3; Grp +7
Atk Options Mighty Swing

Abilities Str 19, Dex 14, Con -, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 6
Talents Weapon Specilization (lightsaber), Melee Smash
Feats Mighty Swing, Weapon Focus (lightsaber), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (lightsaber), Soldier Bonus Feats
Skills Initiative +8, Jump +10 (may take 10, may reroll and take better result), Knowledge (the force) +0, Perception +4, Use the Force -
Systems walking locomotion, 2 hand appendages, locked acess, improved sensors, commlink, jump servos, vocabulator, heuristic processor, secondary battery
Possessions "Jedi robes", lightsaber, utility belt

KT-241 suffers from the delusion that he is a jedi, and really it's probably best not to argue with him on the subject.

In comparison to Jedi of equal level KT-241 is probably slightly superior. He is down one feat in comparison (due to weapon prof for lightsaber), but has Melee Smash to compensate. He is lower on HP, but higher on stats (and immunities) due to being a droid. He is low on skills, but any Jedi with stats close to his are likely to be even worse off. As he advances he will probably go for devastating attack and stunning attack on offence, likely exceding a Jedi's options, and will take the armor talents for defense (where he may end up behind).

On the whole though it looks fairly balanced to me. Soldiers and Jedi's can both be devestating in combat, but they have to sacrifice some of their potential flexibility to do so.And now we have a prototype General Grievous, too! Good job.

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-09, 05:18 PM
I mostly agree with you're statements, Jedi are much more balanced compared to other classes then they were, but are still probably marginally the most powerful combat class in the game, at least if you build one focused that way. The only class that come close is the Soldier going forward towards Gunslinger or Elite Soldier (probably both). A high level Jedi will probably be slightly more deadly in melee combat, then a high level soldier/gunslinger will be in ranged combat. The soldier will probably have an advantage in versatility in terms of skills/feats while the jedi will have his force powers to slightly counter that.


Meh, some people may not be interested in me voicing my opinion about the lack of balance of Jedi. I'll put my comments in a Spoiler, and leave a summary out at the end of my post for those less-interested. :smallsmile:

You won't ever have to worry about me arguing that you can build a character to beat a Jedi in combat (I can be quite the munchkin if I put my mind to it, but I try really hard not to be). However, that Droid would still be beaten by a level 3 Jedi with 16 Wisdom, Skill Focus (Use the Force), and the Block talent. His/her average Use the Force check to block your one attack would be a +9, which is slightly better than the droid's +8 to hit. Then he/she would be free to attack back while you don't have the luxury of an opposed roll to negate his/her hit. My main complaint is that a Jedi can do pretty much anything as well (or better) than anyone else. There are talents that allow you to use your Use the Force check in place of:

1. Persuasion
2. Initiative
3. Piloting
4. Having to have defense (via Block and Deflect)
5. Perception

Granted, you have to learn 7 talents before being capable of doing all of those things with a simple Use the Force check, but my point remains the same. Having a character with Skill Focus (Use the Force) and this smattering of talents will still be a formidable combatant at worst, while being an awe-inspiring expert at each of those things listed.

Before anyone says "Jedi need that, because they only get 2 + Int skills", I'd like to respond by saying that they don't NEED that many skills - Use the Force, combined with the various Force Techniques they can learn, negate the need Treat Injury (they can heal), Jump (they can use Surge), or Deception (Mind Trick).

In all honesty, I'm not saying that it's wrong for Jedi to be better than the other classes. They're freaking Jedi, for crying out loud! Didn't someone in a movie or game say "Through the Force, all things are possible"? I just don't like the fact that the other classes are presumably "equal" to them. If they just included the disclaimer "Hey, Jedi are kind of a bit better than the others so try to keep them balanced" I would be pacified. I guess I just feel that Jedi are kind of maligning the other classes in the eyes of the players, because there is no need to play any class than Jedi in most circumstances unless you simply prefer the flavor. They'll rue the day that they need someone with Mechanics or Use Computer, though!

Recapping:
Jedi are good fighters.
Jedi can perform or emulate most skills simply using Use the Force and having a few good talent/Force power choices.
Jedi are powerful, and that's perfectly okay - just understand that they are.
Give a non-Jedi/non-Force user an ever-so-slight break every once in a while to make up for the disparity.

Ishikar
2007-06-09, 09:05 PM
Just picked up Saga Edition today and really wanna try it out. I do have to say that Jedi did get balanced out a bit and not having to spend skill points or Vitality to activate powers is very nice. As for Jabu's comments

1) Persuasion/mind trick does seem a little redundant until you realize that there's extends of using the force. You can sway emotions without flat out forcing you will.

2, 4 and 5) That's all Jedi combat meditation type activities. It's powerful but taking those talents bypasses other very useful talents.

3) Piloting with Use the Force skill checks strikes me as straight out of the book Courtship of Princess Leia. If you haven't read it basically at the end Luke operates every function of the Millenium Falcon including flying through a pitch black satellite system taking it down before breaking the grasp of one of the last imperial warlords.

As for healing with the force, there's a force trance for your own healing and Vital Transfer for others which deals half the damage to you that it heals. The other two are fair comments but to be fair about surge you could just use move object on yourself and fly by using a chain of standard actions.

Jedi have always been a powerful and cool type of class but you have to realize that they have lost a few of their edges from d20 revised. Also they tend to have low fortitude defenses because they have no proficiency in armor. Also with the loss of blaster pistol proficiency they are weaker outside of melee combat. Of course there are ways around that but it's still tricky.

Another thing I noticed is that Jedi's don't get Force training on their bonus feat list so the number of powers they'll have on average is lower so they can't force strike with imputiny anymore. Also the dropping the automatic dark side points is useful. Force striking someone about to push a button that'll blow up an entire ship is a good use of the force but in d20 it's an automatic dark side point, it always struck me as a little odd.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2007-06-09, 09:09 PM
I hope this game is more balanced, especially at higher levels. The whole whomever crits first gets an autokill beyond 12th level or so, makes the game not very fun.

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-09, 09:47 PM
Nope, it's no longer that easy to beat somebody. At high levels, the best you can hope for from a crit is taking about 1/4 of their health and knocking them one step down the condition track.

Beleriphon
2007-06-09, 10:18 PM
Recapping:
Jedi are good fighters.
Jedi can perform or emulate most skills simply using Use the Force and having a few good talent/Force power choices.
Jedi are powerful, and that's perfectly okay - just understand that they are.
Give a non-Jedi/non-Force user an ever-so-slight break every once in a while to make up for the disparity.

Your problem occurs in that you only get 10 talents. So you've spent 7 of the 10 that you get to do what you claim, and you don't have any prestige classes either. So you could make Use the Force checks for all kinds of stuff, if you don't particularly care to do anything other than be able to use the Force in place of other skills. Its all about trade-offs with Jedi, which I think is cool.

Attilargh
2007-06-10, 07:12 AM
Also the dropping the automatic dark side points is useful. Force striking someone about to push a button that'll blow up an entire ship is a good use of the force but in d20 it's an automatic dark side point, it always struck me as a little odd.
Actually, the errata had already removed the automatic DSP from a couple of Force Powers, Force Strike included.

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-10, 11:15 AM
Your problem occurs in that you only get 10 talents. So you've spent 7 of the 10 that you get to do what you claim, and you don't have any prestige classes either. So you could make Use the Force checks for all kinds of stuff, if you don't particularly care to do anything other than be able to use the Force in place of other skills. Its all about trade-offs with Jedi, which I think is cool.

You can get 11, actually. There's nothing preventing you from taking a prestige class. In fact, to get 11 you would start taking Jedi Knight at an even-numbered level and nab a talent that you otherwise wouldn't have if you remained in one class all the way. And you STILL have a boat-load of feats that you can choose at your leisure to do "anything other than be able to use the Force in place of skills", AND once you hit Jedi Knight you start racking up plenty of Force techniques. With all those bonus feats you can be a combat master AND have plenty of force powers from taking Force Training over and over.

So you could STILL have Use the Force apply to most skills, STILL be as good of a combatant as anyone else (better than most but soldier), STILL have a plethora of Force powers, and have a few Force techniques just to make yourself even more fearsome.

Amiria
2007-06-10, 01:21 PM
By the way, there are quite some errors in the book. Look at the errata thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=858368) over at WotC. They'll issue an errata and want to fix things in the second printing. Grmbl.

Matthew
2007-06-10, 05:41 PM
Getting shot of the 'Full Attack' nonesense has got to be a great move. That's one thing that really annoys me in D&D 3.x and I would gladly see the back of.

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-11, 02:00 AM
I think the only thing I'm really aching for in the errata is a revision of some of the weapon stats. The link that Amiria provided has several good points. I noticed the carbine one myself, but the others (grenade launchers, repeaters, etc.) were all very important issues. The rest were good observations, but I could live without them if I was forced to. :smallsmile:

doorknobdeity
2007-06-12, 06:38 AM
A bit off-topic:
Though I like Star Wars, I don't think I'd want to run a game in the universe. That said, I would like to run a space-opera/space fantasy game, and I'm not quite satisfied with d20 modern and its expansions. How easy would it be to sort of "genericize" the game rules-- e.g. turning Jedi into psychics, blasters into laser guns, etc?

The J Pizzel
2007-06-12, 08:08 AM
I think it'd be pretty easy. We were thinking of using Saga as base ideas for a small Firefly setting one night. Just for fun (we know there's a game out already, we just don't have it). When and if we ever do it, I'll let ya know how it goes.

pizzel

Diggorian
2007-06-12, 12:07 PM
A bit off-topic:
Though I like Star Wars, I don't think I'd want to run a game in the universe. That said, I would like to run a space-opera/space fantasy game, and I'm not quite satisfied with d20 modern and its expansions. How easy would it be to sort of "genericize" the game rules-- e.g. turning Jedi into psychics, blasters into laser guns, etc?

Definately. Fluff defines a setting, dont reference anything from Star Wars and it's not Star Wars. You could make it actual science fiction by incorporating the implications of high technology, as opposed to space opera (which is essentially fantasy in space).

On topic, I cut my GM teeth on Star Wars RPG's but since I'm running a D&D game now I can wait until the second printing for them to work out the inevitable kinks.

TheThan
2007-06-12, 01:23 PM
I've been wondering when this was going to come out. guess I'll have to go and pick up my copy.

Zaldrak
2007-06-12, 02:04 PM
Also the dropping the automatic dark side points is useful. Force striking someone about to push a button that'll blow up an entire ship is a good use of the force but in d20 it's an automatic dark side point, it always struck me as a little odd.

So, how are Dark Side Points given now?

Dark Knight Renee
2007-06-12, 02:11 PM
Personally, I was opposed to the DS Points in general, so I hope that they're either gone now or incredibly well designed. And preferably still a ditch-able mechanic, unlike, say, D&D Alignment.

The J Pizzel
2007-06-13, 09:05 AM
Dark Side points are mainly up to the GM's discretion. However, usuing a Force Power with the "Dark Side" distription next to it rewards an immediate DS point. There's only two Force Powers with it, Dark Rage and Force Lightning. There's also Force Grip, but for some reason it's not a "Dark Side" power. We were thinking of house ruling it a Dark Side power then remembered that Luke used it on the Gamorean Gaurds in Jaba's palace in Return of the Jedi. He used it simply as a deterenat, not lethally. In that respect it's no different than Force Slam (or more commonly known as Force Push). So we decided that we'd keep it as a non-Dark Side power. Other than that, DS points are given out at the GM's disretion. There's a few paragraphs stating some raw guidlines. Blatantly committing an evil act (with or without the use of the force) is a DS point. Doing something out of pure anger (I guess GM's and Players disrection here) get you a DS point. In your example, about the guy pushing the button, my GM wouldn't give a DS point unless you used a Force Power with the "Side Descriptor" on it. So if you used Force Lightning on him, yes, you'd get a DS point. If you used Force Slam or Force Thrust, no, you wouldn't get a DS point. Hope this helped.

jp

OH - you also get DS points equal to your Wis. score before you go Dark Side.

Kiero
2007-06-13, 09:18 AM
For anyone interested, there's a whole bunch of example characters (10th level) for SAGA (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47413).

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-13, 10:31 AM
One new addition I like is how autofiring weapons work. If you have the feat, you can increase dice damage against one target, instead of just spraying a 10x10 area and allowing a reflex save. (In d20 Modern, getting the 'advanced personal firearms' feat just allowed you to spray a 10x10 area without penalty)

Attilargh
2007-06-13, 10:40 AM
That would be the Burst Fire feat from Modern. So Saga lets a character spray the 10 feet square by default? Schweet. :smallbiggrin:

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-13, 10:47 AM
That would be the Burst Fire feat from Modern. So Saga lets a character spray the 10 feet square by default? Schweet. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, that's the one. And if you take the feat (forget its name...), you can take a penalty on your attack (I think it's -5) and deal +2 dice damage. They explain that anyone can spray an area with an auto weapon, but with the some expertise (taking the feat), they can concentrate the burst to single targets.

The J Pizzel
2007-06-13, 11:15 AM
Remember that Autofire gives a -5 penalty alone. Burst Fire feat allows you to target one person at a -5 penalty (Borat: Very nice!!!). But don't forget to brace it so you can drop the penalty to a -2. Which now just makes it a little better than Rapid Shot (-2 for +1 dice of damage). The difference lies in wether or not you can brace for the autofire. Dwell on this, I will.

pizzel

Sir_Rosh
2007-06-13, 11:29 AM
Has anyone found the starting funds that characters receive at 1st level?

Can't seem to find them...

Amiria
2007-06-13, 12:45 PM
Has anyone found the starting funds that characters receive at 1st level?

Can't seem to find them...

It is the last entry for each base class, after the bonus feats. I.e., for the Scoundrel it is at the bottom of page 47.

Zaldrak
2007-06-13, 01:00 PM
Dark Side points are mainly up to the GM's discretion. However, usuing a Force Power with the "Dark Side" distription next to it rewards an immediate DS point. There's only two Force Powers with it, Dark Rage and Force Lightning. There's also Force Grip, but for some reason it's not a "Dark Side" power. We were thinking of house ruling it a Dark Side power then remembered that Luke used it on the Gamorean Gaurds in Jaba's palace in Return of the Jedi. He used it simply as a deterenat, not lethally. In that respect it's no different than Force Slam (or more commonly known as Force Push). So we decided that we'd keep it as a non-Dark Side power. Other than that, DS points are given out at the GM's disretion. There's a few paragraphs stating some raw guidlines. Blatantly committing an evil act (with or without the use of the force) is a DS point. Doing something out of pure anger (I guess GM's and Players disrection here) get you a DS point. In your example, about the guy pushing the button, my GM wouldn't give a DS point unless you used a Force Power with the "Side Descriptor" on it. So if you used Force Lightning on him, yes, you'd get a DS point. If you used Force Slam or Force Thrust, no, you wouldn't get a DS point. Hope this helped.

jp

OH - you also get DS points equal to your Wis. score before you go Dark Side.


That seems almost the same as the old edition to me.

LeeMon
2007-06-13, 02:59 PM
That seems almost the same as the old edition to me.

Two changes I noticed:

Only powers that actively channel aggression are automatic Dark Side points (Lightning, Rage); Force abilities that harm someone are no longer automatically up for consideration for a Dark Side Point just because they harm someone. (In other words, using Force Grip is no more or less dark side than shooting someone, under the same situational context.)

In addition, remaining a Dark Side character does not impose any penalties to your ability scores. You no longer have to save at every character level. If your GM permits Dark Side characters (i.e. doesn't take over the character when you go dark), you can freely continue playing without being any less effective. (You can't boost your Use the Force check on a Light Side power if you have but a single Dark Side Point, but that appears to be the only drawback.)

clarkcd
2007-06-13, 03:01 PM
KT-241


The real question is why isn't he at his post? :smalltongue:

I have my copy on order from Amazon and it should arrive hopefully this weekend or the beginning of next week. From perusing it at my local bookstore it looked like quite a few things have been improved upon and balanced. Gone are the days of the 8d8 lightsaber wielding jedi completely obliterating anyone who wasn't a jedi. Blasters actually have a use now!

MaxMahem
2007-06-13, 03:31 PM
The real question is why isn't he at his post? :smalltongue:

I have my copy on order from Amazon and it should arrive hopefully this weekend or the beginning of next week. From perusing it at my local bookstore it looked like quite a few things have been improved upon and balanced. Gone are the days of the 8d8 lightsaber wielding jedi completely obliterating anyone who wasn't a jedi. Blasters actually have a use now!

I was wondering if anyone would catch the anagram of his name.

But what you say is very true. KT-241's previous incarnation under the RCR ruleset had just that problem. While he was a near-indestructible tank with DR and very high hitpoints (nearly twice that of the other PCs) he was considerably more proficient at ranged combat with his repeating blaster than he was with his lightsaber. Lacking levels in Jedi (he was straight soldier) there was no way for him to match there combat abilities in melee combat (despite a build more focused on it), and frankly his power in ranged combat was not great either, especially in comparison to the Jedi's.

Now, KT-241 is easily on the level if not superior to most Jedi in melee combat, especially if those Jedi have not focused on combat to the degree he has.

clarkcd
2007-06-13, 11:20 PM
For me the two big selling points of the new system are:

1) Multiclassing doesn't gimp force users.

The reason for this is that the skill Use the Force (UTF) is a class skill for anyone who is force sensitive. Every force ability is based off this skill, therefore as long as you have access to the ability (which almost everyone does) then you can be just as good at it as a single classed Jedi. What this means is you can build characters that are fun and make sense role play wise without gimping yourself.

2) At high levels characters who don't play Jedi (or to a lesser extent force users in general) have their place in the game.

The reason for this is the much shorter skill list for Jedi, which means that you might actually NEED other characters plus the absolutely fun abilities that the other classes get to compete with the Jedi. In addition to this is the toning down of the Jedi as mentioned above. Sure they still kick ass at wielding a saber and using the force but they aren't the end all be all of the Star Wars game. For me that means the higher levels are going to be even MORE fun than before.

With my book arriving *crosses fingers* Friday I should have much more to say then.

clarkcd
2007-06-15, 12:53 PM
So I got the book yesterday and after mostly converting my RCR character to SAGA here are some thoughts.

1) I wasn't sure how I'd feel about how skills work now but I have to say I like them. The removal of skill points was foreign to me but with the way all skills increase as level increase and you can use almost every skill untrained you're going to get better at everything but not as good as someone who is trained. Plus you don't have access to all the options a trained person has which I like as well. Then you throw in skill focus and it really differentiates between those who are untrained, those who are trained and those who are dedicated.

2) Feats, Talents, Techniques, Secrets... I know each list gets shorter than the previous but it seems to me that there are too many lists that basically do all the same thing. I'm good with Feats and Talents because they are different enough in their abilities that they should be separate. Techniques and Secrets, however, just seem like Talents. Would it be that unbalanced if instead of techniques and secrets the PrCs who have access to them instead gain talents? Then turning the Techniques and Secrets into Talent trees accessible to only those PrCs?

3)I'm not sure if Double/Triple Attack and Dual Weapon Mastery I/II/III are balanced versus each other. 1 extra attack at a -5 or 2 extra attacks at a -10 which can be offset with talents. To be as effective as possible with 3 total attacks you need 2 feats and 5 talents which the earliest you can collect them all is level 16. Compare that to the DWM chain. 1 extra attack at a -5, then at a -2 and finally at no cost. All that for 3 feats and no talents which you can collect by level 11. You do less damage overall but you become more effective more quickly plus the biggest thing, IMO, is the lack of talents necessary. In SAGA those are the most precious commodity a character has. Now if you combine both of those paths it can be quite scary...

4) The instant boost to HP at 1st level is awesome. So is the lack of fragility to characters. In a world without resurrect characters need to be a bit more hardy. RCR characters were so fragile that every combat was scary and characters ended up being timid if they wanted to live. I imagine SAGA will cure that and characters will act more heroic because there is much less chance of dying when a character reaches zero HP.

I'm sure I have more thoughts but those are the main ones I've had rolling around over the last half day or so.

Amiria
2007-06-15, 04:17 PM
2) Feats, Talents, Techniques, Secrets...

Yes, I also think that they all this special lists aren't neccesary. Techniques and Secrets are very much like Talents and changing them to Talents wouldn't be a bad thing. It adds a bit more flexibility to the Force-PrCs, but imo it doesn't make them more powerful. Techniques and Secrets are very good, you must have a very specialized character that he would take another Talent over them.


3)I'm not sure if Double/Triple Attack and Dual Weapon Mastery I/II/III are balanced versus each other...

It isn't balanced, imo. I made a Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 5 for fun and my original intention was to use only one lightsaber. But those penalties are pretty harsh and you can only reduce them with precious talents (which I already needed for Shii-Cho and Soresu). So I went for the Dual Weapon Mastery feat tree. One feat more and one attack less, but more precise attacks and no talents neccessary.

I'm not sure how to change it. My first thought is to take away those penalty-reducing talents and maybe even Triple Attack for two new feats that reduce Dual Attack penalties.

Or reduce the penalties autmatically depending on BAB.

By the way, General Griveous has both Dual Weapon Mastery (II) and Triple Attack. But he doesn't have access to the DUelist talent tree and so his attack penalties with Dual and Triple Attack are pretty hefty.

Enzario
2007-06-15, 04:43 PM
Also in this new version, even if you get EXTREMELY lucky (read: four 20's in a row), as a jedi you will not be able to sit there and block all day. Penalties are associated with blocking depending on how many times in the previous round and the current one you have already used blocking. Also, autofire is only reduced to half damage if it's blocked. Finally, an explanation of how five troopers were able to take down whats-his-name in episode III.

Amiria
2007-06-15, 04:52 PM
That's why I built my Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 5 with Shii-Cho and Soresu. It reduces the penalties for blocking/deflecting multiple attacks and if you fail a roll you can reroll it once.

Also for fluff reasons. I believe that practicers of Form III are the least suspectible of falling to the Dark Side.

clarkcd
2007-06-15, 05:59 PM
It isn't balanced, imo. I made a Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 5 for fun and my original intention was to use only one lightsaber. But those penalties are pretty harsh and you can only reduce them with precious talents (which I already needed for Shii-Cho and Soresu). So I went for the Dual Weapon Mastery feat tree. One feat more and one attack less, but more precise attacks and no talents neccessary.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. Since I'm not GMing the current campaign any changes will have to wait until I do. Until then I'll either stick with rapid strike for my consular style jedi or if I make a guardian style jedi use two lightsabers or a double lightsaber.

On a random note: Too many talents... not enough levels...

Matthew
2007-06-15, 06:07 PM
One thing about this system concerns me a little, from what I have heard so far. It looks like the Reflex Defence controls most of the defence, but is there no Parry/Block mechanic for Melee?

clarkcd
2007-06-15, 08:22 PM
It's just like all the other D20 games where blocking/parrying is considered part of your defense. D20 modern uses that, D&D uses that, SW RCR uses that, I'm sure M&M uses it.

That said there are some talents that allow you to block/parry attacks that would normally hit you to either reduce the damage you take or negate it entirely.

Matthew
2007-06-15, 08:25 PM
Well, all the other D20 Games, except for Conan D20! Okay, that's what I was interested in, so there are some Feats that just stack with Reflex Defence.

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-15, 09:28 PM
Ignoring the Jedi's Block/Parry stuff, you can still Fight Defensively or use "Melee Defense" (read - Combat Expertise) to increase your Reflex Defense. The ol' Full Defense Action is still in there somewhere as well, I want to believe. I generally regarded manuevers like them to be mostly parries with an occasional counterattack.

Amiria
2007-06-16, 12:35 PM
I thought more about this Dual Weapon Mastery vs. Dual/Triple Attack imbalance.

How about that everyone can make a second attack at BAB 6 (with a -10 penalty) and a third attack at BAB 11 (with a -15 penalty). And then we have three sequenced feats (Multiattack Proficiency I/II/III*, available at level 6, 9, and 12) which reduce the penalties to -5/-2/0 (for the 2nd attack) and -10/-7/-5 (for the 3rd attack).

Balanced ? If not, how could it be balanced ? I still toy with the idea of getting rid of the third attack altogether ... if it makes balance easier.

* = Yes, like the talents, but the talents won't exist anymore in this variant.

Old_el_Paso
2007-06-16, 12:44 PM
Only 5 classes? What exactly is this new book? Are they starting over?

Matthew
2007-06-16, 12:52 PM
I thought more about this Dual Weapon Mastery vs. Dual/Triple Attack imbalance.

How about that everyone can make a second attack at BAB 6 (with a -10 penalty) and a third attack at BAB 11 (with a -15 penalty). And then we have three sequenced feats (Multiattack Proficiency I/II/III*, available at level 6, 9, and 12) which reduce the penalties to -5/-2/0 (for the 2nd attack) and -10/-7/-5 (for the 3rd attack).

Balanced ? If not, how could it be balanced ? I still toy with the idea of getting rid of the third attack altogether ... if it makes balance easier.

* = Yes, like the talents, but the talents won't exist anymore in this variant.
Huh? I thought they had gotten rid of that Iterative Attack nonsense, why would you want to reintroduce it? I'm confused.

Amiria
2007-06-16, 01:06 PM
You can get the Dual Attack and Triple Attack feats which give you more attacks on a full attack - with harsh penalties. You can reduce these penalties with a talent (which you must take multiple times to really get rid of the penalties).

The problem is, that under the RAW, multiple attacks (okay, two) are easier to get with two-weapon fighting via the Dual Weapon Mastery feat tree. It only costs three feats to have two attacks without penalty.

The same two attacks without penalties with only one weapon costs one feats and 2,5 talents (which you also can only take later than the Dual Weapon Mastery stuff).

And talents are more worth then feats. The Dual Weapon Mastery guy gets his two attacks and can do with his talents whatever he likes but the Dual/Triple Attack guy must burn all his high level talent slots on Multiattack Proficiency talent to reduce the penalties.

So I thought to get rid of the Dual and Triple Attack feats and bring "iterative" attacks back again - with really big penalties. And then (since you now have free feat slots) make feats that reduce the penalties - and these feats replace the penalty-reducing talents - and this means that the single weapon guy can also use his talent slots freely like the two weapon guy.


Only 5 classes? What exactly is this new book? Are they starting over?

Yes, it is all new. The system has changed quite a bit, but it is still D20. I didn't play the old version but from what I've seen, Saga is is more balanced and it is simpler.

Read more here: Official Previews (1-8) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/SagaPreview8)

and Jedi Counseling 100-104 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/jedicouncilarchive)

and this thread, and the many threads at the WotC boards.

Matthew
2007-06-16, 01:17 PM
I see. That's really the same problem that existed under (A)D&D 2.x. It wouldn't be much of a big deal in D&D because of the Power Attack mechanic, but I don't know if Star Wars Saga Edition has an equivalent benefit for using a Light Sabre / Vibro Blade / Whatever Two Handed. Then, of course, there is the fact that a guy with Two Weapons doesn't have a free hand to do anythig else...

I'm not familiar with Sage, but ditching Iterative Attacks and improving Two Weapon Fighting sound like good ideas to me. I presume you still hav to use a Full Attack Action to gain the Multi Attack benefit?

Amiria
2007-06-16, 01:22 PM
Power Attack is still there, and it the same as in D&D. However, when fighting with two weapons, you get your full strength bonus for the off-hand weapon.

Yes, multiple attacks are only possible with a full-round action.

clarkcd
2007-06-16, 01:26 PM
I don't know if Star Wars Saga Edition has an equivalent benefit for using a Light Sabre / Vibro Blade / Whatever Two Handed.

In SAGA a character wielding a weapon in two hands gains double his strength modifier (or dex modifier if he's using a lightsaber with the Ataru style. However in SAGA edition there's no penalty to damage on your off hand for wielding two weapons. Either way it balances.


I'm not familiar with Sage, but ditching Iterative Attacks and improving Two Weapon Fighting sound like good ideas to me. I presume you still hav to use a Full Attack Action to gain the Multi Attack benefit?

In fact the only way a character can take a full attack action is if he has two weapons or the double/triple attack feat(s). Otherwise most characters just use an attack action.

Matthew
2007-06-16, 04:00 PM
Thanks for clearing that up guys. Sounds balanced to me. In fact, it sounds like they stole all my ideas... (not that they were very original to begin with!). The more I hear about Saga with regard to this sort of thing, the better I like it.

Beleriphon
2007-06-16, 08:14 PM
We were thinking of house ruling it a Dark Side power then remembered that Luke used it on the Gamorean Gaurds in Jaba's palace in Return of the Jedi. He used it simply as a deterenat, not lethally. In that respect it's no different than Force Slam (or more commonly known as Force Push).

While the wording of the power is a bit vague about what you can target I'd say it would be fair to assume that crushing an opponent's weapon would be a pretty valid use of Force Grip.

Jades
2007-06-17, 12:00 AM
Y'all are sooo gonna hate me for this...

I'm unimpressed by the book. In fact, I consider it a step backwards from d20. I shudder when I think of D&D4.0 being fashioned after this system. (Granted, i've just briefly looked through the book)

As one of my friends put it, most of the book is old hat. The Damage Save that they use isn't new. It was taken from Thief World, and while I house-ruled it into my D&D games, the fact that Wizard is using it doesn't really impress me. Sure, I like it, but meh, it isn't enough to make me like the system.

The Damage Bonus that people keep touting, now that's an outright joke. 1/2 of your level. Gee wilikers! A noble gets the same damage bonus as a soldier! Wheee! I'd rather my soldier have more attacks than the damage bonus.

Five classes, I don't mind. I like True 20, so there's the basic class progression for ya. Feats and talents. Same as D20 Modern, if'n memory serves. Old hat. Not new. Not impressive enough.

Lets talk base attack bonus. Some character types just shouldn't be good with weapons. From what I saw, nobody has a poor base attack bonus. You either get +20 at level 20, or +15.

Skills... I completely and utterly despise this system. With the "trained' system for skills, you make it difficult to build your character as a reaction to storyline. I've had two people explain it two different ways, and I've liked neither. If I'm playing a soldier who isn't stealthy, but want to pick up some stealth abilities, I need to take a feat to get new "trained" abilities. The other way its been described, I need to multiclass, and then take a feat.

This is where d20 shines through, the skill system. Here we have what is pretty much the biggest new thing for the system, and I think that it ruins d20. On a scale of 1 to 10, I dislike this system so much that putting it at a one would place THACO at 10 - merely because I can't go higher.

Now, I'm sure that there are plenty of redeeming factors in the system, but I'm not a fan. If I believed that it was just going to be Star Wars that used this system, I'd be fine. But no, this will replace the D&D that we all love. There isn't enough new stuff to come out with a new edition, we don't need a new edition, and since this is going to be the new edition, I think it will be the worst edition.

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-17, 02:04 AM
Now, I'm sure that there are plenty of redeeming factors in the system, but I'm not a fan. If I believed that it was just going to be Star Wars that used this system, I'd be fine. But no, this will replace the D&D that we all love. There isn't enough new stuff to come out with a new edition, we don't need a new edition, and since this is going to be the new edition, I think it will be the worst edition.

That may be a slight overreaction. Colloquially speaking, the newly-released mechanics for both Star Wars and D&D are generally somewhat related, but never exact replicas. I do expect that Wizards will take this opportunity to create another Unearthed Arcana-esque book that will include rules for converting a select few aspects of D&D into a similar mechanic later, but I doubt they'll use the new Star Wars rules as a staple for future D&D editions. D20 Modern, however, may be in for some familiar-looking changes. It has frequently shared more in common with the Star Wars rules of the time than D&D ever has.

As for the other criticisms, most are pretty fair. I liked the old skill system better as well - it rewarded players who were willing to drop a few ranks into cross-class skills "just in case". You had to make a conscious effort to be a balanced character. However, I do like having your character level be a direct modifier to most of your skills/abilities/etc., though. It does a pretty good job of representing the fact that a level 5 soldier and a level 10 soldier are much more different than simply a better BAB and more health/hit points/whatever. As for the comments about BAB, I've pretty much agreed with that since I first read the Revised Star Wars rules. No one had 1/2 BAB progression then, either. I guess the game designers didn't feel that any class received enough potent abilities to warrant giving them poor BAB to balance themselves. I think the advent of a 2/3 BAB progression would actually help the game out quite a bit. It has "Noble" written all over it! :smallwink:

I personally don't mind if they brought back older concepts/mechanics from other games. I've never played these games, and the fact that they're being "mainstreamed" by Star Wars brings them to a whole new audience. I'm a member of the whole new audience, so whether or not the concept is new, it's still certainly new to me and plenty of others.

But again, I highly doubt that this system will ever be largely incorporated into D&D. There are too many imposing obstacles between the two systems. D&D weapons don't do enough damage to EVER get over the Damage Threshold, armor is much more commonplace than it is in Star Wars, and it would be nigh-impossible to convert the entire D&D magic system into anything that could resemble the new Star Wars mechanic. Also, magical items would grant too many bonuses that in the Star Wars system come entirely from your character level. Monsters and their huge stockpile of special abilities would also be a nightmare to create new rules for. Why bother trying to completely rework EVERYTHING that they have ever built, when they can keep pumping out perfectly useless expansion books every month? Complete NPC, anyone? :smallamused:

Matthew
2007-06-17, 06:05 PM
I dunno. A lot of the stuff they are doing seems like a really good idea. BAB progression has always bugged me anyway. It'd be nice for that to go Skill Based.

Jades
2007-06-18, 02:23 PM
"Why bother trying to completely rework EVERYTHING that they have ever built, when they can keep pumping out perfectly useless expansion books every month? Complete NPC, anyone? "

Why pump out useless books when you can change the system and make it so people need to buy the same books that they already have? You're already paying the writers to write...

SpiderBrigade
2007-06-18, 03:31 PM
Why pump out useless books when you can change the system and make it so people need to buy the same books that they already have? You're already paying the writers to write...Bigger gamble.

You have to convince the people who have spent hundreds of dollars acquiring all the splatbooks for your existing system that your new system is so much better that they need to start from scratch.

For instance, the change from AD&D to 3rd edition was a sizable leap. A lot of things were changed, and the new system was being sold as a big improvement. There are still people who play 2d edition, but many, many gamers either switched over, or were just starting and picked up 3.0

Compare that to the 3.5 change. I know of many people who still use 3.0 rules because re-buying the (limited!) number of books and supplements was too much to ask for the level of change to the game.

Pendragonx
2007-06-18, 04:23 PM
I have the new SAGA edition and I can say I'm very much enthused about the whole thing. I like the changes (especially after reading a bunch of clarifications on the Wizard's board: errata, etc..) and I think it makes the game feel a lot more like Star Wars movies (which I believe was their intent). Hopefully our game goes well. The way they implement "classes" is a bit of a new feeling for me - according to the book it sounds a lot "looser" than I previously would say a 'class' would be.

Jades
2007-06-18, 11:13 PM
Bigger gamble.

You have to convince the people who have spent hundreds of dollars acquiring all the splatbooks for your existing system that your new system is so much better that they need to start from scratch.

For instance, the change from AD&D to 3rd edition was a sizable leap. A lot of things were changed, and the new system was being sold as a big improvement. There are still people who play 2d edition, but many, many gamers either switched over, or were just starting and picked up 3.0

Compare that to the 3.5 change. I know of many people who still use 3.0 rules because re-buying the (limited!) number of books and supplements was too much to ask for the level of change to the game.

Oh, it is a bigger gamble. But that's why you put out a feeler game first. Star Wars players are a smaller, but representative group of Role Players. Plus, they're dedicated, they'll buy a new Star Wars book the way one of my friend will buy a new Runequest book, or I'd buy another Quest For Glory game.

So, Wizards puts out Star Wars Saga Edition, and it generates a lot of hype. On ENWorld, there's threads dedicated to "if this is what D&D4.0 looks like, I'm hooked!" If the community at large embraces this book, it will undoubtedly influence Wizards to made D&D4.0 based off of it.

This is their big test on the changes they're making. And, in my opinion, all of their new changes, suck. Give me skill points, give me a poor base attack bonus.

Beleriphon
2007-06-19, 09:15 AM
I have the new SAGA edition and I can say I'm very much enthused about the whole thing. I like the changes (especially after reading a bunch of clarifications on the Wizard's board: errata, etc..) and I think it makes the game feel a lot more like Star Wars movies (which I believe was their intent). Hopefully our game goes well. The way they implement "classes" is a bit of a new feeling for me - according to the book it sounds a lot "looser" than I previously would say a 'class' would be.

The classes are really just ways of containing thematically linked ability packages in the form of talents. So if you want to be good at wearing armour then you take soldier levels, if you want to be good at hacking computers as well you take some scoundrel. If you want to be good hacking people to little charred bits with a lightsaber you take Jedi levels.

Pendragonx
2007-06-19, 08:19 PM
The classes are really just ways of containing thematically linked ability packages in the form of talents. So if you want to be good at wearing armour then you take soldier levels, if you want to be good at hacking computers as well you take some scoundrel. If you want to be good hacking people to little charred bits with a lightsaber you take Jedi levels.

Indeed. Especially when you can take Jedi 'class' levels and not belong to the Jedi order.. or even USE The Force! it takes some getting use to.. but I think it's kinda neat actually :)

p.s. ..apparently we're M:TG enemies! O_O eek

MaxMahem
2007-06-20, 12:05 AM
Yes, I also think that they all this special lists aren't neccesary. Techniques and Secrets are very much like Talents and changing them to Talents wouldn't be a bad thing. It adds a bit more flexibility to the Force-PrCs, but imo it doesn't make them more powerful. Techniques and Secrets are very good, you must have a very specialized character that he would take another Talent over them.
Meh, I just look at as different talent list or class specific feats you can draw from.


It isn't balanced, imo. I made a Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 5 for fun and my original intention was to use only one lightsaber. But those penalties are pretty harsh and you can only reduce them with precious talents (which I already needed for Shii-Cho and Soresu). So I went for the Dual Weapon Mastery feat tree. One feat more and one attack less, but more precise attacks and no talents neccessary.
Dual weapons and double/triple-attack are more for quickly taking out groups of mooks then as main attack options (not that they can't double as that). With level now directly factored in to damage, iterative attacks are no longer as necessary to deal enough damage to drop that big baddie. Against an equal or higher level opponent you are likely going to need all your BAB to get past his reflex defense anyways.

Of course, their is one HUGE advantage to using double/triple attack over dual weapons, you can add twice your strength bonus to damage (instead of 1.5 like in D&D). For a big strong character like my KT-241 this can be huge (+10 points of damage from strength at level 4).

---

After further analysis (and one play session) my only gripe is that a Jedi with Skill Specialization (Use the Force) is just two good. There are talents that let a Jedi substitute Use the Force for just about everything, from reflex defense (block, deflect), to pilot, to perception, ect... Kind of overpowered that they can spend just one feat to effectively get skill focus in just about anything.

Even worse is that Use the Force isn't properly scaled vrs most non-skill mechanics. For example, a Jedi trained and with Skill focus in Use the Force has a bonus of 1d20+10+stat+1/2 lvl. While a soldiers attack bonus is only 1d20+lvl+stat. Assuming equal stat bonus for melee attack and Use the Force, the Soldiers attack bonus doesn't catch up to a Jedi's block/deflect skill untill lvl 19! At level 1 the Jedi's block skill would be 9 points higher. Similar situation exists when you match Use the Force vrs a characters various defenses (Force Disarm, Force Grip, Force Slam, ect...).

Without skill focus, a Jedi's bonus starts out slightly superior, but slowly loses it's advantage. This is balanced by the fact that a character can only use it one or twice per encounter.

The fix I am working on is to only allow Skill Focus (Use the Force) to Jedi Masters or possibly Jedi Knights (or other appropriate prestige classes). Thoughts?

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-21, 05:37 PM
After further analysis (and one play session) my only gripe is that a Jedi with Skill Specialization (Use the Force) is just two good. There are talents that let a Jedi substitute Use the Force for just about everything, from reflex defense (block, deflect), to pilot, to perception, ect... Kind of overpowered that they can spend just one feat to effectively get skill focus in just about anything.

Even worse is that Use the Force isn't properly scaled vrs most non-skill mechanics. For example, a Jedi trained and with Skill focus in Use the Force has a bonus of 1d20+10+stat+1/2 lvl. While a soldiers attack bonus is only 1d20+lvl+stat. Assuming equal stat bonus for melee attack and Use the Force, the Soldiers attack bonus doesn't catch up to a Jedi's block/deflect skill untill lvl 19! At level 1 the Jedi's block skill would be 9 points higher. Similar situation exists when you match Use the Force vrs a characters various defenses (Force Disarm, Force Grip, Force Slam, ect...).

Without skill focus, a Jedi's bonus starts out slightly superior, but slowly loses it's advantage. This is balanced by the fact that a character can only use it one or twice per encounter.

The fix I am working on is to only allow Skill Focus (Use the Force) to Jedi Masters or possibly Jedi Knights (or other appropriate prestige classes). Thoughts?


Welcome to the club! (See my first post on page 2 of this thread). :smallwink:

Mikal
2007-06-22, 06:20 AM
Meh, I just look at as different talent list or class specific feats you can draw from.


Dual weapons and double/triple-attack are more for quickly taking out groups of mooks then as main attack options (not that they can't double as that). With level now directly factored in to damage, iterative attacks are no longer as necessary to deal enough damage to drop that big baddie. Against an equal or higher level opponent you are likely going to need all your BAB to get past his reflex defense anyways.

Of course, their is one HUGE advantage to using double/triple attack over dual weapons, you can add twice your strength bonus to damage (instead of 1.5 like in D&D). For a big strong character like my KT-241 this can be huge (+10 points of damage from strength at level 4).

---

After further analysis (and one play session) my only gripe is that a Jedi with Skill Specialization (Use the Force) is just two good. There are talents that let a Jedi substitute Use the Force for just about everything, from reflex defense (block, deflect), to pilot, to perception, ect... Kind of overpowered that they can spend just one feat to effectively get skill focus in just about anything.

Even worse is that Use the Force isn't properly scaled vrs most non-skill mechanics. For example, a Jedi trained and with Skill focus in Use the Force has a bonus of 1d20+10+stat+1/2 lvl. While a soldiers attack bonus is only 1d20+lvl+stat. Assuming equal stat bonus for melee attack and Use the Force, the Soldiers attack bonus doesn't catch up to a Jedi's block/deflect skill untill lvl 19! At level 1 the Jedi's block skill would be 9 points higher. Similar situation exists when you match Use the Force vrs a characters various defenses (Force Disarm, Force Grip, Force Slam, ect...).

Without skill focus, a Jedi's bonus starts out slightly superior, but slowly loses it's advantage. This is balanced by the fact that a character can only use it one or twice per encounter.

The fix I am working on is to only allow Skill Focus (Use the Force) to Jedi Masters or possibly Jedi Knights (or other appropriate prestige classes). Thoughts?

Except you forget to mention that the Jedi gains a CUMULATIVE -5 penalty to his UtF checks for each block/deflect check they make.
Thus, yes, in a one on one battle verses an enemy with NO attacks beyond their base, the Jedi will almost always shine.
But when the Soldier starts dual striking/double/triple attacking with multiattack prof talents that UtF roll starts sucking.... FAST.

If anything, this seems to fit the SW feel VERY well: Jedi shine one on one, but when swarmed with numbers or lots of attacks, they falter and fall.
Which is how it should be, since said Jedi is using both a feat AND a talent to be able to deflect/block those attacks, and talents are precious things.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-22, 07:44 AM
Except you forget to mention that the Jedi gains a CUMULATIVE -5 penalty to his UtF checks for each block/deflect check they make.
Thus, yes, in a one on one battle verses an enemy with NO attacks beyond their base, the Jedi will almost always shine.
But when the Soldier starts dual striking/double/triple attacking with multiattack prof talents that UtF roll starts sucking.... FAST.

If anything, this seems to fit the SW feel VERY well: Jedi shine one on one, but when swarmed with numbers or lots of attacks, they falter and fall.
Which is how it should be, since said Jedi is using both a feat AND a talent to be able to deflect/block those attacks, and talents are precious things.

Also, don't you need to make a 'Use the Force' check equal to the other guy's attack? Since your UTF skill advances at 1/2 CL + 5 + Cha modifier, it's not always a sure deal that they'll be blocking.

Here's a rules question:

(Hypothetical)Suppose Kelrin Redstar is a level 2 Noble who decides to take the 'Force Sensitive' feat as his 3rd level feat. 'Use the force' is now a class skill. However, he will not be trained in UTF until he either:
A) Increases his Int modifier by +1 and selects UTF as his new 'trained' skill
or
B) Takes the 'Skill Training' feat at his earliest convenience, selecting UTF as his new trained class skill.
So even though he has the FS feat, he won't be able to benefit from the UTF skill until either A) or B) happens.
Is this correct?

EDIT (Extra credit bonus question!!): Also, since skill are chosen before feats, if I take 'Force Sensitive' as my 1st level feat, I won't be able to pick it as one of my trained skills at first level, unless I'm human and select 'Skill Training' as my second 1st level feat..... right?

MaxMahem
2007-06-22, 07:51 AM
Except you forget to mention that the Jedi gains a CUMULATIVE -5 penalty to his UtF checks for each block/deflect check they make.
Thus, yes, in a one on one battle verses an enemy with NO attacks beyond their base, the Jedi will almost always shine.
But when the Soldier starts dual striking/double/triple attacking with multiattack prof talents that UtF roll starts sucking.... FAST.

If anything, this seems to fit the SW feel VERY well: Jedi shine one on one, but when swarmed with numbers or lots of attacks, they falter and fall.
Which is how it should be, since said Jedi is using both a feat AND a talent to be able to deflect/block those attacks, and talents are precious things.

I didn't forget the -5 penalty, it actually doesn't slow a Jedi down that much at all. First off, unless a Soldier has invested heavily in that multi-fire talent they are going to be suffering a -5 or -10 penalty with each of those extra attacks, which puts them further behind the Jedi on the first attacks, and only breaking even with the current situation on latter attacks (ie he's still at a disadvantage). And of course, there is a talent that allows a Jedi to decrease the penalty for multiple blocks as well.

Second, the imbalance is MUCH worse at low levels. A Jedi can easily start of at level one with Skill Focus UtF, and Block or Deflect. As I pointed out earlier at this point his modifier is likely to be 9 points higher than the soldiers (and 10 greater then all other classes). You're not even eligible for the multi-attack feats till much later. The advantage lasts until the very highest levels, only a soldier who focus very heavily on attack (with weapon focus and the like) will pass is sooner.

Third, as I pointed out before similar situations exists when you compare UtF vrs a characters defenses. This is slightly harder to calculate as there are more variables involved (like the class bonus to defense), but again at low levels Skill Focus UtF is going to have a much higher modifier (like 7 to 9 points higher) then a characters defense. Heck its considerably higher then the Jedi's own attack bonus.

----

There are several solutions, but to me denying skill-focus UtF until higher levels seems like the best option, as it will be less dominate up there. Block/Deflect are certainly the wost offenders, since they are usable more-or-less at will. Making them cost a move action on you're next turn like in earlier editions might also work as a fix. The other force powers are slightly balanced by the 1 per encounter limitation, however I still see them as far to dominate at low levels. The skill aspect doesn't bother me as much due to it's relatively high talent cost.


Welcome to the club! (See my first post on page 2 of this thread).
Sorry man, you were right and I was wrong, it took a session in game for me to see that.

Mikal
2007-06-22, 07:51 AM
Also, don't you need to make a 'Use the Force' check equal to the other guy's attack? Since your UTF skill advances at 1/2 CL + 5 + Cha modifier, it's not always a sure deal that they'll be blocking.

Here's a rules question:

(Hypothetical)Suppose Kelrin Redstar is a level 2 Noble who decides to take the 'Force Sensitive' feat as his 3rd level feat. 'Use the force' is now a class skill. However, he will not be trained in UTF until he either:
A) Increases his Int modifier by +1 and selects UTF as his new 'trained' skill
or
B) Takes the 'Skill Training' feat at his earliest convenience, selecting UTF as his new trained class skill.
So even though he has the FS feat, he won't be able to benefit from the UTF skill until either A) or B) happens.
Is this correct?


Incorrect. UtF requires force sensitive and is not fully trained only.
Like many skills in Saga, being trained gives you additional benefits.
For example, some applications of UtF without force powers via force training such as "move light object" and force trance require you to be trained.
Others such as "search your feelings" and telepathy do not.

And you don't need to be trained in UtF to use any force powers picked up via the Force Training Feat.


EDIT (Extra credit bonus question!!): Also, since skill are chosen before feats, if I take 'Force Sensitive' as my 1st level feat, I won't be able to pick it as one of my trained skills at first level, unless I'm human and select 'Skill Training' as my second 1st level feat..... right?

Incorrect. Your first level feats would be chosen at the same time as your class. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to choose feats with a pre-req of +1 BaB at first level unless they were class bonus feats.

Mikal
2007-06-22, 08:02 AM
I didn't forget the -5 penalty, it actually doesn't slow a Jedi down that much at all. First off, unless a Soldier has invested heavily in that multi-fire talent they are going to be suffering a -5 or -10 penalty with each of those extra attacks, which puts them further behind the Jedi on the first attacks, and only breaking even with the current situation on latter attacks (ie he's still at a disadvantage).

If a person is taking the feats to multi-attack, odds are they're taking the talents to drop or negate those penalties. As I stated.



And of course, there is a talent that allows a Jedi to decrease the penalty for multiple blocks as well.

Decrease, not negate, like the soldier can. In fact, a soldier can get up to 4 attacks at no penalty at higher levels if they so chose, while the Jedi will continue to get negatives on his UtF for each of those attacks.


Second, the imbalance is MUCH worse at low levels. A Jedi can easily start of at level one with Skill Focus UtF, and Block or Deflect. As I pointed out earlier at this point his modifier is likely to be 9 points higher than the soldiers (and 10 greater then all other classes). You're not even eligible for the multi-attack feats till much later. The advantage lasts until the very highest levels, only a soldier who focus very heavily on attack (with weapon focus and the like) will pass is sooner.

Which is why at low levels if he blocks you go to range. If he deflects you go to melee. Or use autofire. Or have more then one person banging away at him.


Third, as I pointed out before similar situations exists when you compare UtF vrs a characters defenses. This is slightly harder to calculate as there are more variables involved (like the class bonus to defense), but again at low levels Skill Focus UtF is going to have a much higher modifier (like 7 to 9 points higher) then a characters defense. Heck its considerably higher then the Jedi's own attack bonus.

As it should be, since a) the defense remains relatively static and b) the UtF works for maybe one or two attacks before degrading into crap.

The point you seemed to miss in my earlier post was that, yes, one on one with single attacks going back and forth, the Jedi WILL win 9 times out of 10... which fits the movies.
When said Jedi starts facing more then one person... or a being with several attacks.... or hell... AUTOFIRE... that block/deflect isn't nearly as effective.
Which, if anyone is going to face a Jedi, will probably be the preferred tactic.
Unless you're an idiot with a death wish who wants to go toe to toe one attack at a time.
In which case you deserve what you get.
Long story short... block/deflect fit the SW style very well, and aren't broken when you look at it from a much wider perspective then "Old school RCR stand and trade full attacks all the live long day"


There are several solutions, but to me denying skill-focus UtF until higher levels seems like the best option, as it will be less dominate up there. Block/Deflect are certainly the wost offenders, since they are usable more-or-less at will. Making them cost a move action on you're next turn like in earlier editions might also work as a fix. The other force powers are slightly balanced by the 1 per encounter limitation, however I still see them as far to dominate at low levels. The skill aspect doesn't bother me as much due to it's relatively high talent cost.

The fact that it takes -5 to each roll after the first is more then balancing enough, once you stop looking at it narrowly.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-22, 08:14 AM
Incorrect. UtF requires force sensitive and is not fully trained only.
Like many skills in Saga, being trained gives you additional benefits.
For example, some applications of UtF without force powers via force training such as "move light object" and force trance require you to be trained.
Others such as "search your feelings" and telepathy do not.

And you don't need to be trained in UtF to use any force powers picked up via the Force Training Feat.

Ah, that makes more sense. I was a little overwhelmed by the new skill rules (though I think I like Saga progression more than regular D&D, since you get so many bonus feats, it's not bad at all taking 'skill training').



Incorrect. Your first level feats would be chosen at the same time as your class. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to choose feats with a pre-req of +1 BaB at first level unless they were class bonus feats.

So between skills and feats, you can pick your feats first at Char creation? I'm used the D&D formula of level gaining: Level in your class => Apply Hit Point increase, BaB bonus, save bonus, class abilities - Choose skill points allocation - choose feat (if applicable at 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc... level).

Mikal
2007-06-22, 08:18 AM
Ah, that makes more sense. I was a little overwhelmed by the new skill rules (though I think I like Saga progression more than regular D&D, since you get so many bonus feats, it's not bad at all taking 'skill training').

Indeed. lot's of customization possible.





So between skills and feats, you can pick your feats first at Char creation? I'm used the D&D formula of level gaining: Level in your class => Apply Hit Point increase, BaB bonus, save bonus, class abilities - Choose skill points allocation - choose feat (if applicable at 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc... level).

When it comes to character creation, yeah, you can. Afterwards, of course, it follows the standard formula... though technically even if you didn't, the Saga edition is about retroactively: i.e. if you want to make one of your trained skills as a skill you dont have yet, you can.
Akin to being able to choose a feat you dont have the pre-reqs for, but not being able to use the feat until those pre-reqs are met.
Which is the example Sarli used in a similar discussion

Tormsskull
2007-06-22, 12:08 PM
I think I'm going to have to pick this book up sometime soon. Quick question, someone earlier in the thread said that force powers can only be used 1x/encounter, did I get that right? No more pouring out the Force Lightning over and over with my Emperor-wannabe-BBEG?

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-22, 01:01 PM
I think I'm going to have to pick this book up sometime soon. Quick question, someone earlier in the thread said that force powers can only be used 1x/encounter, did I get that right? No more pouring out the Force Lightning over and over with my Emperor-wannabe-BBEG?

Well, yes and no. Typically, you get to pick Widom mod + 1 force powers and every encounter you use them once (though I believe you can pick the same power multiple times) when you take the 'Force Training' feat. However, there are ways to get more force for your buck:
- If you get a nat. 20 on any 'Use the Force' check on a power, you can use the power again in the encounter (I can't remember if it's just the one power or all powers, though).
- I think you can spend force points (work like action points in d20 Modern) to regain the use of powers in an encounter.
- You can take the 'Force Training' feat multiple times, theoretically taking the same power multiple times.

There may be other ways, but this is all I can think of off the top of my head.

Attilargh
2007-06-22, 01:38 PM
- If you get a nat. 20 on any 'Use the Force' check on a power, you can use the power again in the encounter (I can't remember if it's just the one power or all powers, though).
Actually, you recover all used Force Powers by the end of your turn on a natural 20. Maybe you're thinking of the talent Telekinetic Power, which lets you use a telekinetic power immediately again on a natural 20?

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-22, 01:50 PM
Actually, you recover all used Force Powers by the end of your turn on a natural 20. Maybe you're thinking of the talent Telekinetic Power, which lets you use a telekinetic power immediately again on a natural 20?

That's probably it... In fact, I was reading up that talent yesterday.

So yeah, crit a UTF skill check on a force training power, and you get them back.

MaxMahem
2007-06-22, 04:48 PM
If a person is taking the feats to multi-attack, odds are they're taking the talents to drop or negate those penalties. As I stated.

Decrease, not negate, like the soldier can. In fact, a soldier can get up to 4 attacks at no penalty at higher levels if they so chose, while the Jedi will continue to get negatives on his UtF for each of those attacks.
Fine, but this takes 5 "precious talents" half the total he will ever get, and a good chunk of his feats as well. It costs the jedi a mere feat and a talent. And this still does nothing for our power low-level fighter.


Which is why at low levels if he blocks you go to range. If he deflects you go to melee. Or use autofire. Or have more then one person banging away at him.
Unless he is level 3 and has both block and deflect, in which case you are truly boned. Your average attack will probably only average someplace around 15, while his skill focused UtF will average someplace around ~23. 8 points higher. You are at a substantial disadvantage.

For that matter even if you are another Jedi, and haven't taken block and Skill Focus UtF you are also likely way behind. You're attack bonus is no better than the soldiers, and so the other Jedi is likely to wipe the floor with you. The point is that this combination is so much more potent than any other combination at its level, that a Jedi with it dominates far to much in combat. A soldier with a similar focus on combat should stand at least a decent chance vrs a Jedi at low levels, not get totally owned as would likely happen.


As it should be, since a) the defense remains relatively static and b) the UtF works for maybe one or two attacks before degrading into crap.
I'm not sure what you mean by defenses remaining static, defense scale just like everything else in saga, the problem is that with a +10 bonus at lvl 1, even the slower scaling UtF skill is far to dominate at low levels. There should be at least some chance of failure, not a 10-15% chance at best. This is especially true since a Jedi can cherry pick his attack to target a characters weakest save.


The point you seemed to miss in my earlier post was that, yes, one on one with single attacks going back and forth, the Jedi WILL win 9 times out of 10... which fits the movies.
When said Jedi starts facing more then one person... or a being with several attacks.... or hell... AUTOFIRE... that block/deflect isn't nearly as effective.
Which, if anyone is going to face a Jedi, will probably be the preferred tactic.
Unless you're an idiot with a death wish who wants to go toe to toe one attack at a time.
In which case you deserve what you get.
Long story short... block/deflect fit the SW style very well, and aren't broken when you look at it from a much wider perspective then "Old school RCR stand and trade full attacks all the live long day"
It make work fine in the movies, but on the table top such dominance by one classes is generally inappropriate. Other PC combat classes should be able to realistically challenge the Jedi at low levels, not have to go 3 on 1 on him. I've got no problem with a Jedi (or anybody else) owning mooks, but another PC class should be able to stand against them.


The fact that it takes -5 to each roll after the first is more then balancing enough, once you stop looking at it narrowly.
Well the best solution I have come up with is to limit Skill Focus UtF until higher levels, where the +5 bonus it grants is no longer so overwhelming.

Exarch
2007-06-22, 05:53 PM
I have to agree that Jedi are still far too superior to anything else at low levels.

We recently ran into a Sith apprentice who had two levels on us. Mind you, this is just after I decimated a squad of Stormy-equivalent lackeys with Autofire and regular shots. I start shooting at the Sith...I get something like a 25 to hit by rolling a 18 or whatever, something high. The DM nods, rolls a 9, and declares that the Sith deflects my shot. Well, fine, whatever, I have proficiency with my Vibrobayonet also. Next turn, I charge and get something like a 24 (+3 Str, +2 charge, +3 Level), again the DM rolls a dice and declares the Sith parries. So, now what do my 3 Jedi buddies do? Force Choke, Force Thrust (or is it Push?) and Force STFU...he's dead. It's fine and fun to kill lackeys like they're nothing, any PC can do that. But whenever there's a boss battle, I'd like to be able to do something, not just play meat shield.

A bit later, we were being attacked by Tuskegan Raiders, and my Jedi-esq buddies decided to collapse a sand dune on the raiders. Well, between the three of them (1 attempting to move it, the other two assisting), they managed to (the highest the chart goes up to is Colossal and it was pretty decently below what they rolled) collapse it and kill them all. All I had been able to do was Autofire into a few of them, and due to the penalties on that and range, I wasn't able to kill crap. They, on the other hand, wiped out basically a whole war party.

Training giving a base +5, and then Skill Focus giving an additional +5 is way too good at first level. Skill Focus should have some sort of minimium level requirement when it pertains to "Use the Force".

Edit: In case you're wondering, I'm playing as a Soldier. Talents are the one where my damage counts as 5 points higher for Threshold and something else. Weapons are a blaster rifle, vibro-bayonet, grenades (which are also very good), and a light repeating blaster for giggles.

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-22, 10:52 PM
The point you seemed to miss in my earlier post was that, yes, one on one with single attacks going back and forth, the Jedi WILL win 9 times out of 10... which fits the movies.
When said Jedi starts facing more then one person... or a being with several attacks.... or hell... AUTOFIRE... that block/deflect isn't nearly as effective.
Which, if anyone is going to face a Jedi, will probably be the preferred tactic.
Unless you're an idiot with a death wish who wants to go toe to toe one attack at a time.
In which case you deserve what you get.
Long story short... block/deflect fit the SW style very well, and aren't broken when you look at it from a much wider perspective then "Old school RCR stand and trade full attacks all the live long day"

The fact that it takes -5 to each roll after the first is more then balancing enough, once you stop looking at it narrowly.

Uhh, I'm sorry that it seems like we're teaming up against you Mikal, but I've really got to question your logic here. I don't think saying "Man, you get your tail whooped if you're outnumbered 3 to 1!" is a legitimate balancing factor. ANYONE gets their tail kicked when they're outnumbered. Classes that aren't Jedi are more prone to being defeated in such a situation, anyways. Losing a -5 each time isn't a penalty-enough to keep the Jedi from blocking any number of multiple attacks from one target. If he's being double OR triple teamed, he may have a harder time to block/parry but he still has his Reflex Defense to fall back on, and that's all that any non-Jedi character starts out with. So by having a Jedi be double-teamed, we've made him/her have to face the same challenges that every other character in the game must face in every situation.

I agree with MaxMahem in that Skill Focus: Use the Force should be limited until a certain higher level. I think that would pretty much relax many of my tensions/complaints about Jedi.


I think I'm going to have to pick this book up sometime soon. Quick question, someone earlier in the thread said that force powers can only be used 1x/encounter, did I get that right? No more pouring out the Force Lightning over and over with my Emperor-wannabe-BBEG?

Sounds like you're looking for the Control talent called "Force Focus"! As a full-round action, you can make a DC 15 Use the Force check to regain one Force Power you've already used that encounter. You can't just Uzi people down with Force Lightning anymore, but every other round ain't too shabby!



Sorry man, you were right and I was wrong, it took a session in game for me to see that.

Bah, nobody is right or wrong. Jedi could have an ability that lets them kill anyone they want for free, but saying that they are or are not balanced is still technically a matter of opinion. I still believe that Jedi shouldn't HAVE to be balanced against the other classes (as they're freaking Jedi, and nothing in the movies makes us believe that any class should be able to compete with them), but that the rules should just clearly state "Hey, Jedi and Sith are in a league of their own, so don't hold them on equal footing with other classes". Then each individual GM can make their own houserules in an attempt to keep games evenly matched. That's just my opinion, and unless Wizards releases an errata saying that exact same thing, I'll never really be "right".

But by golly, I'm already convinced that I am. :smallsmile:

Attilargh
2007-06-23, 11:04 AM
Ah, motivation!

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y103/AttilaTheBum/Jedimotivator.jpg

Move along, nothing to see here.

TheGreatJabu
2007-06-24, 10:14 AM
Hehe! That pretty much sums it up for me. Vader knew what he was talking about when he said the ability to destroy a planet was insignificant. If Luke Skywalker had shot a proton torpedo at a Sith Lord, IT could have survived. :smallwink:

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-25, 07:47 AM
I was crunching some numbers with regards to 'Use the Force' and 'Skill Focus: UTF', and it's true that at lower levels, it makes a heck-of a bigger difference than at lower levels. However, at the higher levels, it's not nearly as 'auto-block' or 'auto-deflect'.

At level 20, a jedi with Skill focus: UTF will have +20 to his skill, plus charisma mod (probably 18 at that point), for about 24 (give or take, depending on the individual jedi... a twi'lek seems better built to block at higher levels). Now take a soldier: his BaB is +20, plus his str (likely 18 at that point), plus any weapon focus feats, which likely give +25 to +26 BaB (possibly 2 attacks at +24 if built that way) - this doesn't really factor in any PrCs. At this stage, the Jedi's ability to block is dependant on how high the Soldier rolled, and if the soldier gets off a second attack, the soldier has a 5 difference in his favor to hit the Jedi. So, not counting heavy optimization, they seem to even out at the higher levels.

At low levels, the Jedi gets quite the advantage. At level 5, he can get a UTF skill of 12+charisma mod (probably 14-16 at that point) for about a +14 to +15 bonus. A level 5 soldier can't even hope to get that high an attack bonus....

So at that point, it depends on the GM whether to allow Skill Focus: UTF 'till a later level, or just leave it as is. I can definately see how this makes lower levels easier for Jedi, unless you swarm him with some lower level enemies.

Beleriphon
2007-06-25, 08:14 AM
So at that point, it depends on the GM whether to allow Skill Focus: UTF 'till a later level, or just leave it as is. I can definately see how this makes lower levels easier for Jedi, unless you swarm him with some lower level enemies.

Keep in mind that by level three you're already several options ahead of the stormtrooper like mooks you'll be likely to face in combat. So in combat a Jedi's deflect is easily defeated by one or two enemies firing at him, or combining fire on one Jedi character to boost a single enemies attack bonus to astronomically high levels. Also, as ruled you can deflect critical hits, provided that you can roll UtF well enough to get better than 20+attack bonus, no easy feat.

I really don't see a problem with Skill Focus: UtF anymore than I see an issue with Skill Focus: Acorbatics, or SKill Focus: Stealth. The character used a feat to get a really high UtF check that they don't need to be that high at low levels. In effect they've maxed out their skill excepting 1/2 level bonuses. I think its perfectly valid, since thats one less thing they can do at a low level.

The way some people are talking makes it sound like the designers didn't take this into consideration. I mean really, its an obvious design decision that seems to work for the game. If where hideously broken then I don't really expect we'd have seen it at all. Have faith and play the game as written before making any judgment calls.

Attilargh
2007-06-25, 08:23 AM
At low levels, the Jedi gets quite the advantage. At level 5, he can get a UTF skill of 12+charisma mod (probably 14-16 at that point) for about a +14 to +15 bonus. A level 5 soldier can't even hope to get that high an attack bonus....
Base Attack +5, Strength 16, Powerful Charge, Weapon Focus aaand... Hrm, the book ran out of feats. Well, anyway, that's an attack bonus of 13 on a charge.

If the Soldier took a level of Scoundrel or Jedi and trained Acrobatics, that'd be a +4 or +5 more (respectively) with Acrobatic Strike. The Scoundrel Talent Skrimisher would give another +1, which means that a tumbling almost-Soldier could get an attack bonus of 18 on a charge.

That, however, is a whole lotta feats. Easier to just buy a grenade and chuck it at the silly Jeedai.

SpikeFightwicky
2007-06-25, 08:56 AM
Keep in mind that by level three you're already several options ahead of the stormtrooper like mooks you'll be likely to face in combat. So in combat a Jedi's deflect is easily defeated by one or two enemies firing at him, or combining fire on one Jedi character to boost a single enemies attack bonus to astronomically high levels. Also, as ruled you can deflect critical hits, provided that you can roll UtF well enough to get better than 20+attack bonus, no easy feat.

I really don't see a problem with Skill Focus: UtF anymore than I see an issue with Skill Focus: Acorbatics, or SKill Focus: Stealth. The character used a feat to get a really high UtF check that they don't need to be that high at low levels. In effect they've maxed out their skill excepting 1/2 level bonuses. I think its perfectly valid, since thats one less thing they can do at a low level.

The way some people are talking makes it sound like the designers didn't take this into consideration. I mean really, its an obvious design decision that seems to work for the game. If where hideously broken then I don't really expect we'd have seen it at all. Have faith and play the game as written before making any judgment calls.

I haven't played the game yet, so I have no idea how it plays out in practice as opposed to on paper. I'm not making 'judgement calls', I'm making an observation based on the RAW, and I never said 'If I start a game, I'm banning Skill Focus: Use the Force!!! Those designers suck at balance!!'. I'm sure that for all the 'deflecting' a jedi can do, a soldier can either just get his AC up high enough to not get hit that often, or deal alot more damage than the jedi, who has 2 talents spoken for. Besides, you can just get 5 battle droids and play the odds that one will eventually hit, or pepper the area with an auto-weapon.


That, however, is a whole lotta feats. Easier to just buy a grenade and chuck it at the silly Jeedai.

Razor bugs seem to work great. Was anyone else disapointed with the amphistaff? It should have some higher than average hardness and be resistant to lightsabers, and I thought that 'spear mode' would deal more damage than a simple spear. I recall reading that the tip was extremely sharp and able to easily bite into metal.

Roog
2007-06-25, 09:10 AM
Bah, nobody is right or wrong. Jedi could have an ability that lets them kill anyone they want for free, but saying that they are or are not balanced is still technically a matter of opinion. I still believe that Jedi shouldn't HAVE to be balanced against the other classes (as they're freaking Jedi, and nothing in the movies makes us believe that any class should be able to compete with them), but that the rules should just clearly state "Hey, Jedi and Sith are in a league of their own, so don't hold them on equal footing with other classes". Then each individual GM can make their own houserules in an attempt to keep games evenly matched. That's just my opinion, and unless Wizards releases an errata saying that exact same thing, I'll never really be "right".

But by golly, I'm already convinced that I am. :smallsmile:

(I don't have the rules yet - hopefull I'll pick them up soon.)

Youy are right that Jedi do not have to be ballanced, but if they are then it will make my life as a GM (and player) much easier. If I want the Jedi to be "in a league of their own" then they can be 2 or 5 or N levels higher than everyone else - that way the situation is obvious to everyone.

(And if non-Jedi players complain then I can simple tell them "Sorry, you are just not cool enough to take the spotlight away from the Jedi".)

MaxMahem
2007-06-26, 12:17 AM
Keep in mind that by level three you're already several options ahead of the stormtrooper like mooks you'll be likely to face in combat. So in combat a Jedi's deflect is easily defeated by one or two enemies firing at him, or combining fire on one Jedi character to boost a single enemies attack bonus to astronomically high levels. Also, as ruled you can deflect critical hits, provided that you can roll UtF well enough to get better than 20+attack bonus, no easy feat.
As TheGreatJabu said, the fact that a Jedi can be defeated when taken on 3 on 1 still doesn't balance him in respect to other characters. A soldier or scout would similarly be at a disadvantage when facing these greater numbers. Furthermore, when taking these challenges on at low levels the Jedi's UtF skill is superior enough to give him an almost certain win vrs the first attack (likely 9 points or so higher), an advantage on the second (4 points higher), and only drop slightly bellow 50% on his third (1 point lower). And as TheGreatJabu also pointed out, he's got his reflex defense to fall back on after that, which is all any other class has to start out with.

Even for crits, a typical lvl 1 Jedi would have reasonable chances to deflect a crit from a CR 1 baddy (or even another PC). UtF at lvl 1 = 5 trained +5 skill focus + 2 ability +1d20 = 22 avg. Stormtrooper attack on critical hit +24, so he would deflect in 40% of the time! And you're average stormtrooper is actualy probably better than you're average lvl 1 PC (in attack bonus at least) with a +3 BAB and Weapon Focus.


I really don't see a problem with Skill Focus: UtF anymore than I see an issue with Skill Focus: Acorbatics, or SKill Focus: Stealth. The character used a feat to get a really high UtF check that they don't need to be that high at low levels. In effect they've maxed out their skill excepting 1/2 level bonuses. I think its perfectly valid, since thats one less thing they can do at a low level.
The biggest problem with Skill Focus: UtF is that it can be applied, with the appropriate talents, to vrs virtually every other stat in the game, some of which were obviously not scaled to compare with skill checks. Block and deflect are the most obvious examples, but the various force powers let you compare it to defenses which are generally not scaled to match as well.

In this way it is different than most application of other skills which are generally matched with DCs appropriate for the skill (Swim, Jump, Treat Injury, ect...) or matched vrs other skills which scale at the same rate (Stealth, Pilot) or they take heavy penalties when compared to a characters defense (deception, persuasion). Block/Deflect with UtF are different in this way, and there unlimited usage combined with there comparison to attack bonus (which scales differently) is certainly the worst offense.


The way some people are talking makes it sound like the designers didn't take this into consideration. I mean really, its an obvious design decision that seems to work for the game. If where hideously broken then I don't really expect we'd have seen it at all. Have faith and play the game as written before making any judgment calls.
Firstly, I was originally in you're camp. TheGreatJabu tried to point this out to me earlier, but I ignored it. My first couple game session changed my mind however. My character (KT-421) is about as melee combat focused as a character can get at his level (4) even more so than a Jedi could be due to the Brawler Combat tree. His strength is outstanding, and he has practically every attack boosting option available to him at this level. However, the party's Jedi block bonus is far higher then his attack bonus, at the cost of only one talent and one feat. In play this imbalance has very much come to light.

Also, the designers are far from perfect. If any book should prove this Saga is it which is chock full of typos and other obvious errors. For that matter, if the previous designers of the RCR (or the first Star Wars D20 game before that, or the d6 version before that), why then was there the need for saga?

I find it quite possible that the designers never considered the implications of Skill Focus UtF when combined with block and other talents in low-level play. At high level (as I and other have pointed out) it's quite balanced. However at low-levels the math simply doesn't work out.

Beleriphon
2007-06-29, 10:06 PM
I find it quite possible that the designers never considered the implications of Skill Focus UtF when combined with block and other talents in low-level play. At high level (as I and other have pointed out) it's quite balanced. However at low-levels the math simply doesn't work out.

I fail to see how they couldn't take that in account. I built a Jedi character and its one of the first things I did. The game was play tested, so I can only assume that at some point somebody thought to combine SF: UtF and block or deflect. Seriously though, UtF is really handy, but its also not that good even with talents to use it in place of virtually every other skill since you don't get those handy extra things like rerolls, or other uses of skills that characters who took talents that actually work with said skills can do.

My comments about multiple attackers on a Jedi are perfectly valid. The way way the CL system works is the same as the CR system for D&D. Thus a group of stormtroopers against a single Jedi and three of his non-melee buddies have a really fat target sitting in front of them, and three targets that are probably using cover. Deflect is really good against one, or even two attacks per round, beyond that and the character really starts to suffer. It does nothing against area of attack effects such as grenades and is only moderately useful against autofire attacks. Additionally a group of four low level mooks, who can by the way take Double Attack, can get off eight shots per round. Thats pretty dangerous for anybody, not just Jedi, so the implication that Jedi are uberkill machines is just silly. Especailly at low level when they have few skills than everybody else and can only do a few of the classic Jedi like things. A low level Jedi character is good, but so is the soldier with a light repeating blast, or a scoundrel, or anything else. Its about trade-offs at low level and deciding what you want to be good at to start with.

TheThan
2007-07-01, 04:07 AM
[copy and paste from other thread]
I just got my copy of saga edditon today. I like a lot of what I see, however there are things that donít make sense to me and sort of bug me. But like with most RPGs you have to take the good with the bad. Or house rule the bad away.

Iím starting up a tabletop campaign soon so weíll see how it goes.

[/copy and paste]

Kiero
2007-08-19, 05:26 PM
Does anyone have any actual play they can share? Especially written up reports and the like.

Amiria
2007-08-19, 05:30 PM
Oh my ... thread. It's alive ! It's alive ! :smallbiggrin:

... uhm, sadly, I have only played a short combat encounter yet as a play test. But we have big plans for a SAGA campaign.

AnnShadow
2008-01-02, 02:13 PM
We have played 4 times now and just made level 3.

We have
Jedi (with block and deflect)
Noble2 / scout1 (for evasion)
Scout
Scoundrel/scout (evasion)/ Soldier

Jedi is a killing machine and is ALWAYS killed. The rest of us use blaster rifles/pistols and the jedi wades in and force slams/lightsabers all to pieces.

So, naturally, all the bad guys gang up on him and he dies.

course we all died last time (cept one ... DM Pity?)

Edit: also, we are playing right after episode III and jedi are actively hunted. Since one got away in the last fight, I imagine we will be hunted by the imps ... probably have to roll up new characters or abandone the mission. which is the same since the rest of the module depends on us doing the mission.

So, being a jedi has a LOT of problems if you go by the book. Once you whip out that light saber and start blocking shots you might as well roll up a new character unless you kill everyone.

Talya
2008-01-02, 03:31 PM
Jedi are a bit gimped in saga edition compared to where they were previously, and far more so than in the movies. I suppose that's necessary, as Jedi can become nearly godlike in the actual setting, leaving other classes as useless unless they gimp them a bit.

UTF focus is severely overpowered at level 1. However, UTF as a skill is way underpowered at level 20. My solution is as follows:

Skill Focus adds +1 to your skill at every odd heroic level. Therefore, Skill Focus at Level 1 would be +1, but at level 19 it would be +10. This keeps the skill more balanced vs. enemy defenses at every level.

A few things I'd house rule in saga:

Block/Deflect combined into one talent.

Additional Force Power: Reactive Telekinesis. Can be used as a reaction in combat, but otherwise much like Move Object. Used primarily for redirecting "grenades," (a very un-starwars-ish weapon to begin with.)

Also: Jedi reroll talents are very good--Soresu and Juyo, for example, roll twice and keep the higher of them. Sure, Juyo costs a force point, but most jedi knights that take it will get it back after the encounter anyway. Most non-jedi reroll talents are NOT good--they are "you may reroll, but you must keep the second roll even if it is worse..." -- which must be equalized.

Roland St. Jude
2008-01-02, 06:49 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread is about four months old and was well-beyond page 3. Please don't commit Thread Necromancy.