Magelord prc

[nintendoh]

So i was messing around online and found the magelord prestige.

What does everyone think? I like the capstone but I'm not wizard person. Can we do anything useful and fun with this?

[ComaVision]

I think you should remove that link before you get in trouble for it.

I also think the class is fine. You'll need to dip something to qualify for it but once in it doesn't lose any more spellcasting so it can't be that bad a choice.

[darksolitaire]

I think there was errata somewhere that said that it was supposed to only require level 4 spells to enter, so that the intended rogue 2/wizard 7 can finish the class before epic levels. It's pretty nice class for ray casters. Spontaneous conversion of spells is good for added versatility, but gaining evasion from class levels is painful for full casters.

[nintendoh]

Removed... Why would i get in trouble. I read the faqs but that was a long time ago and life tends to remove information from your brain. Would this couple with abjurant champ and mage killer well maybe.

[Amphetryon]

I think there was errata somewhere that said that it was supposed to only require level 4 spells to enter, so that the intended rogue 2/wizard 7 can finish the class before epic levels. It's pretty nice class for ray casters. Spontaneous conversion of spells is good for added versatility, but gaining evasion from class levels is painful for full casters.
If you can use Flaws to snag the Planar Touchstone Feat, Illumian Wizard 7/Loredelver 3/Magelord 10 is viable, if tight on the Skills.

[nintendoh]

Would i take the uncanny forethough feat

[ComaVision]

Removed... Why would i get in trouble.

It was linking the copyrighted content. I haven't read the forum rules but I've gathered pretty quickly that it's a no-no lol

[ShurikVch]

It was linking the copyrighted content. I haven't read the forum rules but I've gathered pretty quickly that it's a no-no lolExcept WotC themselves give free access to it. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2)

[daremetoidareyo]

could work on a master spelltheif build

[ComaVision]

Except WotC themselves give free access to it. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2)

Touche but the rest of the formerly linked site is not as innocent.

[Chronos]

It's also a really boring class. You get a little bit of sneak attack and a little bit of spell mastery, plus (eventually) a little bit of extra flexibility with your mastered spells. What about this says "magelord"? You're less magey than a straight wizard, due to losing two levels to pick up evasion (and nothing the class gets come close to making up for that), you're not lordy at all, and an extra 3d6 (and nothing else) isn't really enough to justify the splash of rogue you took.

It looks like what happened was, there was a character in one of the Forgotten Realms books who had a little bit of sneakiness who got kicked out of mage school, studied more and got to decent levels, and started calling himself a magelord, and some overly-literal game developer thought that meant that he had to build a custom prestige class just for that character, instead of just calling him a multiclassed rogue/wizard or maybe Arcane Trickster.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

It's been a long while since I looked at it, but even without the "unofficial" errata, you can enter it with Unseen Seer to help meet the Sneak Attack requirements.

[Chronos]

It advances Sneak Attack but doesn't require it. The roguish prerequisite is evasion, not sneak attack.

[Kraken]

Those entry requirements are just painful. Even just the feats give me pause. But let's assume for a minute the class only requires spell mastery and signature spell, as those are the only things tied into magelord's class abilities. Even then, you're just not getting much. The extra spontaneity is kinda cool, but uncanny forethought has already been mentioned, and it's way better, because it doesn't limit you to mastered spells. Also, magelord's capstone doesn't actually grant you any new abilities, because the writer and editors obviously didn't know that clerics can apply metamagic to their spontaneous spells right out of the box. Because the level 3 ability of magelords is based off of cleric spontaneous casting mechanics, it makes their capstone redundant. One thing that's kinda cool is that magelord has some skills on its list that you don't often see in wizard prestige classes.

Unfortunately for magelord, it exists in the same game system as unseen seer. An unseen seer with uncanny forethought leaves the magelord far in the dust while fulfilling the same approximate party roles and themes. You'd need to give the magelord some serious buffs to make it worthwhile, all things considered.

[ShurikVch]

No need to dip in Rogue or any other class.
Entomanothropy (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a) with Ectoplasmic Vermin gives you Evasion as a racial ability.
It's LA +2, but, unlike the extra class levels, you can just buy it off.
And even if LA buyoff disallowed, you can be afflicted Entomanothrope, and remove affliction later

Also, magelord's capstone doesn't actually grant you any new abilities, because the writer and editors obviously didn't know that clerics can apply metamagic to their spontaneous spells right out of the box.How? :smallconfused:

[Kraken]

The relevant rule is sneakily hidden in the metamagic feat info section. Viewable on the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats), presumably it'd be in the feats chapter within the PHB. I assume the reason this isn't well known is that, in addition to it not being in the cleric's spellcasting rules where one would think it'd be at least mentioned, there's not much reason to make use of this. You'd never cast a maximized cure light wounds, you'd just cast cure critical instead. Once you get 5th level slots you might consider an empowered cure serious instead, but that's a pretty dubious use of your highest level spell slots, and you're starting to get to the point where the cure line is outliving its usefulness anyway.

[ShurikVch]

The relevant rule is sneakily hidden in the metamagic feat info section. Viewable on the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats), presumably it'd be in the feats chapter within the PHB. I assume the reason this isn't well known is that, in addition to it not being in the cleric's spellcasting rules where one would think it'd be at least mentioned, there's not much reason to make use of this. You'd never cast a maximized cure light wounds, you'd just cast cure critical instead. Once you get 5th level slots you might consider an empowered cure serious instead, but that's a pretty dubious use of your highest level spell slots, and you're starting to get to the point where the cure line is outliving its usefulness anyway.Since capstone don't refer to Cleric ability, maybe you will be able to apply metamagic without longer casting time?

[Ellowryn]

Do note that you can get into Magelord without losing any caster levels if you grab at least 2 levels in Divine Oracle. All it requires is 8 ranks in K Religion and a visit to the Frog Gods Fane (for a free Skill Focus (K Religion) feat), well that and requiring you to wear some really funky pants but you are a wizard so you can really wear whatever you want.

That said, it is not a bad class. Its not very good compared to powerhouses like Incantatrix and ISFV but you do not need to lose any caster levels and the limited amount of spontaneity really does help.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Divine Oracle gives Prescient Sense, not evasion. Prescient Sense is mechanically very similar to evasion but definitely not the same and has a different name anyways.

[Pluto!]

The class is bad. Unseen Seer and Spellwarp Sniper with Uncanny Forethought basically do the same thing, but better.

[Ellowryn]

Divine Oracle gives Prescient Sense, not evasion. Prescient Sense is mechanically very similar to evasion but definitely not the same and has a different name anyways.

Prescient Sense (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, if a divine oracle makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally inflicts half damage on a successful save (such as a red dragon’s fiery breath or a fireball spell), she instead takes no damage, since her prescience allowed her to get out of the way faster. This form of evasion works no matter what armor the divine oracle wears, unlike the evasion ability used by monks and rogues.

Says it is a form of evasion, so there is no reason not to use it as such.

[torrasque666]

Prescient Sense (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, if a divine oracle makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally inflicts half damage on a successful save (such as a red dragon’s fiery breath or a fireball spell), she instead takes no damage, since her prescience allowed her to get out of the way faster. This form of evasion works no matter what armor the divine oracle wears, unlike the evasion ability used by monks and rogues.

Says it is a form of evasion, so there is no reason not to use it as such.
Except that without saying that it fulfills requirements for "evasion" it doesn't. Just like if Desert Wind Dodge didn't have the line about allowing it to satisfy requirements for "Dodge", it wouldn't.

[Ellowryn]

Except that without saying that it fulfills requirements for "evasion" it doesn't. Just like if Desert Wind Dodge didn't have the line about allowing it to satisfy requirements for "Dodge", it wouldn't.

So, despite specifically stating that it is a form of evasion and going on about how it was only slightly different from the evasion ability that monks and rogues have by being usable in any armor, it isn't evasion?

[torrasque666]

So, despite specifically stating that it is a form of evasion and going on about how it was only slightly different from the evasion ability that monks and rogues have by being usable in any armor, it isn't evasion?
By RAW, yes. As it is an ability that is not "Evasion" it would need some line stating that it satisfies those requirements.

[Amphetryon]

So, despite specifically stating that it is a form of evasion and going on about how it was only slightly different from the evasion ability that monks and rogues have by being usable in any armor, it isn't evasion?

Don't forget the fact that it's bad and boring, despite being a full casting Wizard + extras, on the grounds that something else (published later, in a different supplement) has MOAR POWER.

[Quertus]

Just borrow a ring of evasion from some other party member / NPC. "Slaughtering those orcs was fun, but I feel like I'm about to level - can I see your ring for a minute?"

[ZamielVanWeber]

Just borrow a ring of evasion from some other party member / NPC. "Slaughtering those orcs was fun, but I feel like I'm about to level - can I see your ring for a minute?"

Magelord specifies the evasion must be a class feature or a racial trait.

[Anlashok]

By RAW, yes. As it is an ability that is not "Evasion" it would need some line stating that it satisfies those requirements.

Doesn't the line that explicitly says that it's a form of evasion qualify as saying it's a form of evasion?

[torrasque666]

Doesn't the line that explicitly says that it's a form of evasion qualify as saying it's a form of evasion?
It doesn't contain language saying that it satisfies requirements of "Evasion" which is what it would need to qualify. Saying its a form of evasion isn't enough, by RAW. Personally, i think it would be a fair houserule to allow it to work, but by RAW it doesn't explicitly qualify.

For example, despite being incredibly similar to, and stacking with, Sneak Attack (the same level of similarity that Prescient Sense shares with Evasion), Sudden Strike doesn't qualify for things requiring Sneak Attack. At least, it wouldn't if it weren't for the sidebar on page 8 of Complete Adventurer stating that it does.

[Quertus]

Magelord specifies the evasion must be a class feature or a racial trait.

Ah. Thanks.

[Ellowryn]

It doesn't contain language saying that it satisfies requirements of "Evasion" which is what it would need to qualify. Saying its a form of evasion isn't enough, by RAW. Personally, i think it would be a fair houserule to allow it to work, but by RAW it doesn't explicitly qualify.

For example, despite being incredibly similar to, and stacking with, Sneak Attack (the same level of similarity that Prescient Sense shares with Evasion), Sudden Strike doesn't qualify for things requiring Sneak Attack. At least, it wouldn't if it weren't for the sidebar on page 8 of Complete Adventurer stating that it does.

Except that it specifically says it is a type of evasion, which means that for all rules regarding evasion it is a valid target except where it specifically denotes it is different. I could see where if they had given it the ability of evasion without ever adding anything in it linking it to evasion then it would not qualify, but the line " This form of evasion works no matter what armor the divine oracle wears, unlike the evasion ability used by monks and rogues" means that it is evasion even if it not named as such.

[Pluto!]

Don't forget the fact that it's bad and boring, despite being a full casting Wizard + extras, on the grounds that something else (published later, in a different supplement) has MOAR POWER.
It's a Wizard, but with the opportunity cost of 2 noncasting levels and 6 feats (though to be fair, Imp Init isn't bad) in exchange for a conditional +3d6 on a certain flavor of blasting. I'd stick with "bad."

Its better-known competition in Unseen Seer, Spellwarp Sniper and Arcane Trickster all make the exchange a more even deal.

The interesting angle it has going for it is the Spell Mastery thing. That has uses with Uncanny Forethought and Signature Spell and synergizes with that Illusionist ACF fro UA. Those uses would be more interesting if Uncanny Forethought didn't also have that last clause about working with non-Mastered spells at a slight CL hit. With that clause, the Magelord as a class becomes kind of obsolete.

[Kraken]

Since capstone don't refer to Cleric ability, maybe you will be able to apply metamagic without longer casting time?

That'd be a good way to actually make it useful. It'd take a long time to come online, but that much spontaneous metamagic without an increased casting time would be pretty unique as a class feature, the only other ways to reduce spontaneous metamgic casting time all have daily limits as far as I'm aware.

[A_S]

That'd be a good way to actually make it useful. It'd take a long time to come online, but that much spontaneous metamagic without an increased casting time would be pretty unique as a class feature, the only other ways to reduce spontaneous metamgic casting time all have daily limits as far as I'm aware.
Rapid Metamagic (CM) lets you modify spontaneous spells without affecting the casting time all day for one feat, available at level 9.

Worth a quick note: You can finish Magelord pre-epic without any cheese by using Combat Medic. It's still bad, but you can do it.

[Kraken]

Huh. I guess the capstone could let you quicken them? Or would that work already with rapid metamagic? Quicken specifically calls out spontaneous casting in an annoying way that makes it unclear how these would interact.

[ShurikVch]

You need Evasion only for a moment, right?
Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) into Ectoplasmic Vermin will give you Evasion as a racial ability.

[Chronos]

If you're using Shapechange to qualify, then you can't get in until level 18. I don't think this is a solution to the real problem.


Quoth Amphetryon:

Don't forget the fact that it's bad and boring, despite being a full casting Wizard + extras, on the grounds that something else (published later, in a different supplement) has MOAR POWER.
You misunderstand. Unseen Seer has moar power, but so does Arcane Trickster, a core class, which itself isn't even all that great. It's only full casting if you jump through some hoops to get in without losing caster levels, and even if you count Divine Oracle, by that time you've got enough other PrCs available that it pales in comparison to those, too.

And the charge of "boring" has nothing to do with its power level. It has to do with the fact that the class gives you only two new things, neither one of which is a big deal, and which have no synergy or relation with each other. Compare it to alienist, for instance: That's another prestige class which isn't very powerful, as full-casting PrCs go, but nobody ever said it was boring. It lets you summon Otherworldly Things that Should Not Be, and it gives you abilities appropriate to Otherworldly Things that Should Not Be, and eventually even turns you into an Otherworldly Thing that Should Not Be. The abilities make a big difference to your character, and they fit well together.

[Kraken]

Really, the two biggest offenders are the capstone not doing anything and the wretched pre reqs. If you just got rid of all the pre reqs except for spell mastery and some skill requirements to basically allow entry at level 6, then it'd be boring and weak, but at least it'd be playable.

[ShurikVch]

If you're using Shapechange to qualify, then you can't get in until level 18. I don't think this is a solution to the real problem.O RLY?
How expensive is scroll of Shapechange?
How much need you pay somebody to cast 9th level spell?

[Amphetryon]

Really, the two biggest offenders are the capstone not doing anything and the wretched pre reqs. If you just got rid of all the pre reqs except for spell mastery and some skill requirements to basically allow entry at level 6, then it'd be boring and weak, but at least it'd be playable.

My emphasis. It's unplayable as written? Really? It gets you more than a Wizard 20, and can be entered two different ways that we've listed so far without losing a single caster level (3 depending on how your DM rules Divine Oracle's pseudo-Evasion).

Is a Wizard 20 unplayable? Why, or why not? What makes this full-casting PrC unplayable, compared to Wizard 20?

[Pluto!]

O RLY?
How expensive is scroll of Shapechange?
How much need you pay somebody to cast 9th level spell?
Personal range

[ExLibrisMortis]

My emphasis. It's unplayable as written? Really? It gets you more than a Wizard 20, and can be entered two different ways that we've listed so far without losing a single caster level (3 depending on how your DM rules Divine Oracle's pseudo-Evasion).

Is a Wizard 20 unplayable? Why, or why not? What makes this full-casting PrC unplayable, compared to Wizard 20?
"Playable" means "I can design a character that - given all options - has a reason to take this PrC, and then play that character as being of that PrC", or something like that. It's pretty subjective, and it comes down to the power level of an option compared to options that are similar in fluff and function. Things that are very nearly unplayable might just be called unplayable, too, as per hyperboles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole).

There is no reason to take wizard 20, just none. Playing a wizard 20 is a shortcut, not a commitment to being a 'full wizard' (that'd be something like Wizard/Master Specialist/Archmage, in my opinion).

There are very few reasons to take Magelord. You get stuff, yes: a better skill list, including Bluff, Intimidate, Hide, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot and Tumble. You get four locked-in bonus feats, 3d6 sneak attack, and a good reflex save, though you lose your good will save. It's a small plus overall, but compare to an Arcane Trickster.

An Arcane Trickster gets more skills - all those a Magelord gets, minus Intimidate, and 18 more, including Diplomacy, Disguise and Listen - and +2 skill points per level. You get a good will save and a good reflex save. You get 5d6 sneak attack, and two funny class features - they're not super strong, but they do things. Overall, you're getting as much as a Magelord, you're not picking from an obscure sourcebook, and you're not dealing with annoying fluff requirements.

The entry requirements are much more harsh on the Magelord: can't enter until level 10, you need four feats, 10.000 gp (at level 10, you have 49.000 gp WBL), and you need Evasion instead of SA, so Assassin's Stance won't help (and Martial Study + Martial Stance are much better feats than WF(ray) and Spell Mastery/Signature Spell).

We're not even getting into Unseen Seers, or persistant hunter's eye Incantatrices, or Halruaan Elder Dweomerkeepers.

So here's the bottom line: for any character that uses Magelord levels, there is a more optimized build that fits the exact same fluff and crunch restrictions (barring an outright ban on non-Magelord levels, obviously), without Magelord levels.

[Chambers]

I remember fiddling around with the Magelord at one time or aanother and as I recall the most interesting thing to do was to just take the Spell Mastery feat as many times as possible. Due to the Magelords ability to spontaneously cast his Mastered Spells, you can end up with more Mastered Spells than a Sorcerer has spells known.

So, the basic point of the Magelord is to make a Wizard that is a better Sorcerer than the Sorcerer.

[ShurikVch]

Personal range1) There are tricks around it, such as Spellguard of Silverymoon
2) Scroll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) still cost under 4000 gp

[Kraken]

My emphasis. It's unplayable as written? Really? It gets you more than a Wizard 20, and can be entered two different ways that we've listed so far without losing a single caster level (3 depending on how your DM rules Divine Oracle's pseudo-Evasion).

Is a Wizard 20 unplayable? Why, or why not? What makes this full-casting PrC unplayable, compared to Wizard 20?

More than wizard 20? I suppose that depends on how much you value its abilities and entry taxes, but I'd would say you come out with less than wizard 20, due to the entry taxes and lackluster class abilities. Wizard 5, 10, 15, and 20 (depending on where you place magelord in a build) at least give you feats (or a cleric domain power of your choice, per Complete Champion), but by replacing 10 levels with magelord, you lose 2 feats and additionally are forced to redirect 4 of your other feats slots. I like improved initiative, but the other 3 are trash unless you were going for uncanny forethought with spell mastery. A net loss of 4-5 feats, from my perspective. Even if we were in a world where unseen seer, uncanny forethought, spontaneous divination, and all the other, better, ways to replicate magelord's niche didn't exist, I'll take those 4-5 feats over the 3d6 sneak attack and spontaneity with mastered spells any day.

[Amphetryon]

"Playable" means "I can design a character that - given all options - has a reason to take this PrC, and then play that character as being of that PrC"

Please highlight the relevant previous passage - or appropriately linked article - where this particular definition of "unplayable" was given, particularly as pertains to the discussion at hand.

I ask because the definitions I find at Oxford English Dictionary are different than the above:


Not able to be played or played on

and


(Of music) too difficult or bad to perform

as well as


(Of a sports pitch) too poor to play on in the English (as opposed to American-English) version.

I find no definition of "unplayable" in the PHb, except as pertains to stats below a certain threshold, where a re-roll is allowed, so I'm curious as to where exactly you found the particular gaming-centric definition you put in quotes, above. Because, as far as standard usage is concerned, 'unplayable' and 'better options exist to represent a given PC concept' are pretty far from synonyms, unless everything shy of Pun-Pun is 'unplayable.'

[Troacctid]

You have to give the class some credit: spontaneously casting any of your mastered spells is very good.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Please highlight the relevant previous passage - or appropriately linked article - where this particular definition of "unplayable" was given, particularly as pertains to the discussion at hand.

I ask because the definitions I find at Oxford English Dictionary are different than the above:

and

as well as

in the English (as opposed to American-English) version.

I find no definition of "unplayable" in the PHb, except as pertains to stats below a certain threshold, where a re-roll is allowed, so I'm curious as to where exactly you found the particular gaming-centric definition you put in quotes, above. Because, as far as standard usage is concerned, 'unplayable' and 'better options exist to represent a given PC concept' are pretty far from synonyms, unless everything shy of Pun-Pun is 'unplayable.'
Now you're just being uncooperative for the sake of being uncooperative. My definition of 'unplayable' is not adequately sourced, therefore you refuse to consider my analysis of the Magelord class? Really.

The stats below a certain threshold are a perfect example of what unplayable is. The game does not break down if you roll six eights. There's just (almost) no reason an adventurer would ever be that guy with eights in all scores, just like an adventurer would not be that guy with Magelord levels.

[Ellowryn]

Now you're just being uncooperative for the sake of being uncooperative. My definition of 'unplayable' is not adequately sourced, therefore you refuse to consider my analysis of the Magelord class? Really.

The stats below a certain threshold are a perfect example of what unplayable is. The game does not break down if you roll six eights. There's just (almost) no reason an adventurer would ever be that guy with eights in all scores, just like an adventurer would not be that guy with Magelord levels.

I agree he was being snarky, but i think you are too harsh in your assessment of the PrC. Can you cast 9th level spells at minimum CL20 as a Magelord, of course you can. Can you as a wizard 20 with an 8 in Int, only if you have access to a +5 tome and a +6 headband (and thats only at level 20). Yes most of the feats are crappy but to be fair what makes wizards T1 has nothing to do with feats, so a wizard with spell mastery 7 times is still broken good.

[atemu1234]

I agree he was being snarky, but i think you are too harsh in your assessment of the PrC. Can you cast 9th level spells at minimum CL20 as a Magelord, of course you can. Can you as a wizard 20 with an 8 in Int, only if you have access to a +5 tome and a +6 headband (and thats only at level 20). Yes most of the feats are crappy but to be fair what makes wizards T1 has nothing to do with feats, so a wizard with spell mastery 7 times is still broken good.

A wizard is broken good if played so. A blaster-wizard is not played brokenly, it's the basic expectation of the game.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think you are too harsh in your assessment of the PrC. Can you cast 9th level spells at minimum CL20 as a Magelord, of course you can.
A common fallacy: "You're still t1 if you do x, so x must be good". Not so. There are still different power levels and different builds within t1.

Classes, including prestige classes, are not rated according to the tier of a specific build (in this case, a wizard/magelord). They are rated according to the relative power level of the various possible builds for a given amount of optimization. In the case of the Magelord, you remain in your tier, but you are a (slightly) weaker t1 than the Arcane Tricksters or Master Specialists of this world, let alone the Incantatrices, Dweomerkeepers and Shadowcrafters.

It's not the tier difference that makes it a relatively bad PrC, though. If you want to play a certain type of character, the tier won't stop you (the power level of the campaign might, of course). The Magelord occupies two niches: a limited-spontaneous prepared caster, and a sneaky roguish (ray)caster. It's pretty bad at both of them, with the Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer about, with Spontaneous Divination about, the Dweomerkeeper's Mantle of Spells and the Halruaan Elder's bonus signature spells, and of course Uncanny Forethought. In addition, the two niches are both somewhat less optimal for a full caster, which does nothing to compensate for the lack of good class features.

[Ellowryn]

A wizard is broken good if played so. A blaster-wizard is not played brokenly, it's the basic expectation of the game.

Well, yes, but what i was trying to get at is a wizard with full casting progression and nothing but crappy feats is still a wizard.

[atemu1234]

Well, yes, but what i was trying to get at is a wizard with full casting progression and nothing but crappy feats is still a wizard.

And we should meddle not in their affairs.

[Anthrowhale]

Spelldancer 2 grants evasion without compromising spell advancement.

[Ellowryn]

A common fallacy: "You're still t1 if you do x, so x must be good". Not so. There are still different power levels and different builds within t1.

Classes, including prestige classes, are not rated according to the tier of a specific build (in this case, a wizard/magelord). They are rated according to the relative power level of the various possible builds for a given amount of optimization. In the case of the Magelord, you remain in your tier, but you are a (slightly) weaker t1 than the Arcane Tricksters or Master Specialists of this world, let alone the Incantatrices, Dweomerkeepers and Shadowcrafters.

It's not the tier difference that makes it a relatively bad PrC, though. If you want to play a certain type of character, the tier won't stop you (the power level of the campaign might, of course). The Magelord occupies two niches: a limited-spontaneous prepared caster, and a sneaky roguish (ray)caster. It's pretty bad at both of them, with the Arcane Trickster and Unseen Seer about, with Spontaneous Divination about, the Dweomerkeeper's Mantle of Spells and the Halruaan Elder's bonus signature spells, and of course Uncanny Forethought. In addition, the two niches are both somewhat less optimal for a full caster, which does nothing to compensate for the lack of good class features.

I think i failed to get the crux of my argument across, so my bad. What i was trying to say is that Magelord is not a bad PrC, but neither is it a good one either. It gives you full caster progression while not requiring you to give up caster progression to enter, therefore it is not a BAD PrC. Acolyte of the Skin is a BAD PrC for example. However as you pointed out it doesn't really give you anything good in exchange for taking the class, nothing that can't be replicated with fewer feats, therefore it is not a GOOD PrC. Incantatrices, Dweomerkeepers and Shadowcrafters are examples of GOOD PrC's.

Ultimately it is a flavor PrC that will neither hurt you to take nor help you.

[Kraken]

It takes more than full caster progression to make something "not bad." If magelord had no entry requirements except spell mastery and 8 ranks in spellcraft (or whatever 'after 5th level' barrier you want), it'd be more than not bad, it'd be a decent prestige class that'd probably pop up as a recommendation with some level of regularity, though it'd still basically be a 9 level class even in that situation, due to the dysfunctional capstone. On the other hand, if in addition it required you to take toughness five times, it'd be clearly terrible. The reality is obviously somewhere in between, but it's still definitely on the side of having a considerably higher price than it's worth (or more simply, "bad"). Especially when you add the fact that spelldancer and combat medic, the only two clearly legal options posted so far which don't lose caster levels and can finish the class pre-epic, have hefty entry requirements of their own.

[Ellowryn]

So you believe that any PrC that does not improve the class taking it is bad? Thats a very arbitrary distinction, as i would rate Magelord head and shoulders above PrC's like the aforementioned Acolyte of the Skin but far below Incantratrix.

Personally i find that PrC's tend to fall into 4 categories: Good, Average, Bad, and Not Applicable. Obviously which class is trying to take a PrC determines which category it falls into.

[Chronos]

Any PrC that doesn't improve the class taking it in some way is bad. A PrC shouldn't be an across-the-board improvement (and it's sad just how many are, especially for casters), but it needs to at least offer something.

[Kraken]

So you believe that any PrC that does not improve the class taking it is bad? Thats a very arbitrary distinction...

That's a pretty big leap from what I actually said. It's just a simple analysis of the cost and benefits on my part. If you get more than the cost of entry from class abilities, that's at least good, possibly awesome. If the trade is a little good, even, or a little bad, that'd probably make something okay. But if the costs far outweigh the benefits, that's at least bad, maybe worse. And while it's ultimately subjective, it should be obvious by now that I think magelord is bad. There's definitely worse, but that's not really much of a defense. The piece at the top of the pile is still crap.