Anarchic Creature - a stupendously horrendous template?

[SangoProduction]

It's a +5 LA template. Yeah, that alone....
Anyway, and it gets, omg, wait for it...1 Fast Healing by ECL 9. Oh and worst of all (oh the humanity!), they can deal all of 1 point of damage per HD to any lawful creature....as part of an attack...once per day. But look! Sonic resistance...5. Because it makes sense...?
So, it's a lesser version of Half-Fiend...but costs an extra LA. I mean, come on! At least Half-Fiend has stuff at first level. Anarchic just allows you to look like a retarded half orc (dark vision, yay!) for 9 levels.

[Necroticplague]

Yep, most templates are garbage. More news at 11.

[SangoProduction]

Yep, most templates are garbage. More news at 11.

From what I've seen, this is on an entirely different scale than than most. Half-Fiend is considered garbage because of level (thus caster level) loss, and has nothing for casters. But at least it gives something, and it's cooler than what martial characters would get in as many levels.

This doesn't even do that.

[DrMotives]

Unless that template was reprinted in another book after Manual of the Planes, it doesn't give any ECL value at all. Just a CR value, which maxes out at CR+2

[xyianth]

Unless that template was reprinted in another book after Manual of the Planes, it doesn't give any ECL value at all. Just a CR value, which maxes out at CR+2

Planar Handbook, LA +5 is correct. It is hilariously overpriced.

[SangoProduction]

Unless that template was reprinted in another book after Manual of the Planes, it doesn't give any ECL value at all. Just a CR value, which maxes out at CR+2

Just googled it, after seeing a spell in another forum. I got in trouble for linking something that wasn't explicitly open gaming license, but it should be the first result.

[DrMotives]

Wow, my bad. I had looked in the errata files, but didn't realize it was reprinted in Planar Handbook. Since the good & evil versions are both ECL +2, I really can't see why Law & Chaos are +4 & 5 respectively. I suggest rule 0, and knock those down to something reasonable.

[Chronos]

Well, the lawful one does have that mindlink thing where none are surprised unless they all are-- That's kind of handy, and unlike anything Celestial or Fiendish get. But anarchic doesn't really get you anything more than them.

[ericgrau]

<Looks it up incrediously> Wow, that really is bad. Why in the world would they nearly copy celestial or fiendish then say "Hey, LA 2 is too little, ours should be LA 5". Not "LA 2 is already pushing it a little maybe it should even be LA 1" or "Hey let's only up it to 3 to be safe". But, no, "Hey, let's crank it all the way up to 5 cuz, reasons"?

[SangoProduction]

<Looks it up incrediously> Wow, that really is bad. Why in the world would they nearly copy celestial or fiendish then say "Hey, LA 2 is too little, ours should be LA 5". Not "LA 2 is already pushing it a little maybe it should even be LA 1" or "Hey let's only up it to 3 to be safe". But, no, "Hey, let's crank it all the way up to 5 cuz, reasons"?

Yeah man. That was my exact reaction, more or less.

[ericgrau]

It's interesting that their CR remains unchanged in spite of the borked LA. So at least you can't get extra experience from them. Maybe the LA has to do with this line:
"They are also called the Unfinished, and some say they were first drafts, abandoned to the roiling planes of chaos by forgotten creators."
Abandoned first draft indeed... apparently never updated. <Ahem>

Maybe they're trying to make it clear that if you want to play an unfinished creature it is required that you suck.

[Rubik]

Yes, the LA is horrible.

Luckily, adding it onto one's familiar, animal companion, special mount, or psicrystal (if you're an erudite) via the Planar Familiar spell, means you get anarchic at the cost of a hired cleric's spell slot and 500 xp.

Also, onto all of your thralls and believers if you're a thrallherd...

[SangoProduction]

Yes, the LA is horrible.

Luckily, adding it onto one's familiar, animal companion, special mount, or psicrystal (if you're an erudite) via the Planar Familiar spell, means you get anarchic at the cost of a hired cleric's spell slot and 500 xp.

I'm fairly sure the spell specifically says "You can not use this spell on another's companion creature." or something along the lines of that.

[Rubik]

I'm fairly sure the spell specifically says "You can not use this spell on another's companion creature." or something along the lines of that.Then buy a scroll.

Note that it's a cleric-only spell, and clerics don't get class-granted companions.

[SangoProduction]

Then buy a scroll.

Note that it's a cleric-only spell, and clerics don't get class-granted companions.

That's a decent work around.

Then it was probably intended for multi-classing clerics.

[ericgrau]

It is odd on how clear the spell is on saying, "Hey, to use this spell go get a class with a companion as a class feature".

But then you can just UMD scroll it or limited wish it or Mystic Wanderer PrC or Nar Demonbinde PrC. And it's way better.

[Chronos]

I'm pretty sure that some official content arises from powergamers wanting to pull one over on their DM, so they go write a book (or web article), get it published, and then point to it and say to their DM "See? Official! You have to let me use it!". A spell that's only usable to an optimizer seems like exactly the sort of thing you'd expect from such a designer.

[Rubik]

I'm pretty sure that some official content arises from powergamers wanting to pull one over on their DM, so they go write a book (or web article), get it published, and then point to it and say to their DM "See? Official! You have to let me use it!". A spell that's only usable to an optimizer seems like exactly the sort of thing you'd expect from such a designer.Or some (read: many) of the designers couldn't buy a clue if they were on Wheel of Fortune.

[SangoProduction]

Or some (read: many) of the designers couldn't buy a clue if they were on Wheel of Fortune.

Pretty much this.

[Dusk Raven]

I think it's possible for a pure Cleric to get a familiar, at least, possibly even an animal companion. But I don't remember how so it's probably obscure.

The LA+5 template is still attrocious, though. I wonder if the designers though Fast Healing was a lot better than it was. Granted, FH1 is good for an ally, since after a fight you can just wait for them to heal instead of using spells or potions on them. It's more or less useless in combat, though. Either the fights are too short, or they're long and against creatures that deal more in a single turn than you'll heal in the whole fight. Or, alternatively, creatures against whom hit point damage is the least of your concerns...

[Killer Angel]

Planar Handbook, LA +5 is correct. It is hilariously overpriced.

Real anarchists don't care about rules. They'll have the template without paying for it.

[Esprit15]

The LA+5 template is still attrocious, though. I wonder if the designers though Fast Healing was a lot better than it was.
Given that in the DMG they also said that physical stat increases were more powerful than mental stat increases, I'm inclined to believe that their sense of balance early on was a little shakey.

[Bullet06320]

<Looks it up incrediously> Wow, that really is bad. Why in the world would they nearly copy celestial or fiendish then say "Hey, LA 2 is too little, ours should be LA 5". Not "LA 2 is already pushing it a little maybe it should even be LA 1" or "Hey let's only up it to 3 to be safe". But, no, "Hey, let's crank it all the way up to 5 cuz, reasons"?

well on the number pad on my keyboard the 5 is above to 2, so im gonna say typo?
at least that way when we rule 0 it we have a plausible explanation most can live with, lol

[xyianth]

Or some (read: many) of the designers couldn't buy a clue if they were on Wheel of Fortune.

Still going to go with this as the real reason. :smallcool:

[ShurikVch]

I agree, +5 is too much, but, maybe, it's because of this? -
—Immunity to polymorph and petrification.

[Zancloufer]

Most LA in the game is too much. Though having a look at the entire stat block:

>Darkvision: Nothing special here.
>DR 5/Magic after level 12: Absolutely useless. Everything at that level is either magic, and/or doing 4x + that damage anyway.
>Resistance 5 to all elements: Not bad. Solid, almost OP, at level 1, though it peters off later on.
>Smite Law: It's the Smite ability. It's little better than a cheap stocking stuffer.
>Fast Healing: 1 at level 4, 3 at 8, and 5 at 12+. Okay, useful AND scales with level. Never have to heal between battles from HP damage again.
>Immunity to Polymorph and Petrification: This is kind of a double edged sword. No being turned to stone is great, but the immunity to polymorph not so much. If taken at RAW, it's a NERF (IE: The 4th level spell that requires a WILLING participant), though to more reasonable one being it can't have it's shape changed at all depends on class. Yes you can't go werewolf on someone, or get turned into a chair, but if your a caster you can't shape-change, alter-self, etc.

Overall, maybe LA 1 at best. The Darkvision and Resistance is the only thing useful at first, and while the Resistance is nasty at level one, by the time it starts to peter off you get fast healing. If your a non-caster it's solid, and MIGHT be worth LA 2 if your really paranoid about being turned into a chair, but as a Druid or Wizard it's almost worth negative LA.

[ShurikVch]

but the immunity to polymorph not so much. If taken at RAW, it's a NERF (IE: The 4th level spell that requires a WILLING participant)By the RAW, Polymorph is a "4th level spell that requires a WILLING participant"; Polymorph is Transmutation sub-school, and also any spell whose effect is based on either Alter Self or Polymorph

[ericgrau]

Given that in the DMG they also said that physical stat increases were more powerful than mental stat increases, I'm inclined to believe that their sense of balance early on was a little shakey.
Casters don't actually need mental stats that much. Most good spells don't rely on saves and even if some do it doesn't apply to every attack you do unlike strength. Plus a caster can benefit from con and dex. For a non-caster cha and int do next to nothing, just some minor help with skills which you can replace in other ways. Wis helps with will saves and that's about it; which is kinda nice but another +1 or +2 to a single save is pretty mediocre. I would actually say con > dex ~> str (not for casters, sure, but it's just that huge on everyone else and even clerics) > int > wis > cha. For a caster you move your mental stat to the top of the list but everything else stays in the same order, even the other mental stats. And for some casters I'm not so sure their mental stat should be above con. For a few I'm not so sure it should even be above dex. For a super optimized caster dex may even top the list simply for initiative.

[Dusk Raven]

>Immunity to Polymorph and Petrification: This is kind of a double edged sword. No being turned to stone is great, but the immunity to polymorph not so much. If taken at RAW, it's a NERF (IE: The 4th level spell that requires a WILLING participant), though to more reasonable one being it can't have it's shape changed at all depends on class. Yes you can't go werewolf on someone, or get turned into a chair, but if your a caster you can't shape-change, alter-self, etc.

Overall, maybe LA 1 at best. The Darkvision and Resistance is the only thing useful at first, and while the Resistance is nasty at level one, by the time it starts to peter off you get fast healing. If your a non-caster it's solid, and MIGHT be worth LA 2 if your really paranoid about being turned into a chair, but as a Druid or Wizard it's almost worth negative LA.

I was curious, so I looked up Liches. While Liches are immune to polymorph, it's stated that they can use polymorph on themselves. I suppose the Anarchic template has no such exception?


Casters don't actually need mental stats that much. Most good spells don't rely on saves and even if some do it doesn't apply to every attack you do unlike strength. Plus a caster can benefit from con and dex. For a non-caster cha and int do next to nothing, just some minor help with skills which you can replace in other ways. Wis helps with will saves and that's about it; which is kinda nice but another +1 or +2 to a single save is pretty mediocre. I would actually say con > dex ~> str (not for casters, sure, but it's just that huge on everyone else and even clerics) > int > wis > cha. For a caster you move your mental stat to the top of the list but everything else stays in the same order, even the other mental stats. And for some casters I'm not so sure their mental stat should be above con. For a few I'm not so sure it should even be above dex. For a super optimized caster dex may even top the list simply for initiative.

Actually, casters need a minimum in their spellcasting stat to cast spells. Cantrips/orisons need 10, 4th-level spells need 14, etc, so if you ever intend to cast 9th-level spells you will need 19 in that stat at some point. I suppose you could get away with having a lower-than-max stat in your spellcasting ability, which leads to some interesting roleplaying possibilities, but then you won't have much of a safety buffer, if at all, before you start losing spellcasting ability should an enemy damage that stat. Also, bonus spells. I think those are useful.

I can see why the devs thought physical stats are more important than mental ones, because on average, they are. Physical stats are useful to pretty much everyone, while a Fighter doesn't care about most mental stats. Still, I like to have some reasonable number in my physical stats no matter what, for various reasons. Also, I like to have at least a 10 in STR, because I like to be able to carry my own stuff without getting encumbered. Especially if I'm a Wizard, because then I'll be using a crossbow and that stuff's heavy. I've had Wizards struggle to carry their weapon and the clothes on their back...

[SangoProduction]

Fairly sure you can willingly let down your immunities.

[ericgrau]

I was curious, so I looked up Liches. While Liches are immune to polymorph, it's stated that they can use polymorph on themselves. I suppose the Anarchic template has no such exception?



Actually, casters need a minimum in their spellcasting stat to cast spells. Cantrips/orisons need 10, 4th-level spells need 14, etc, so if you ever intend to cast 9th-level spells you will need 19 in that stat at some point. I suppose you could get away with having a lower-than-max stat in your spellcasting ability, which leads to some interesting roleplaying possibilities, but then you won't have much of a safety buffer, if at all, before you start losing spellcasting ability should an enemy damage that stat. Also, bonus spells. I think those are useful.

I can see why the devs thought physical stats are more important than mental ones, because on average, they are. Physical stats are useful to pretty much everyone, while a Fighter doesn't care about most mental stats. Still, I like to have some reasonable number in my physical stats no matter what, for various reasons. Also, I like to have at least a 10 in STR, because I like to be able to carry my own stuff without getting encumbered. Especially if I'm a Wizard, because then I'll be using a crossbow and that stuff's heavy. I've had Wizards struggle to carry their weapon and the clothes on their back...
They do need a minimum mental stat, but it isn't that hard to get. 19 is a lot less than the 36+ you can end up with if you really want. The middle ground is pretty easy to obtain without pumping your mentals that hard at all, leaving plenty of buffer. And most importantly mentals are certainly weak as a racial ability. Even 1 LA makes it hard to justify it on a caster. You don't need any racially at all and any that you do get is so weak it's hard to pay any LA at all for it.

I think I played a "medium/low-ish caster stat" caster once or twice before and it was so unimportant I forgot that I was doing it and it wasn't a defining character trait at all. I don't tend to pick many spells that rely on saves anyway, not even on my high mental stat casters. Even if I take something like web it's still nice when enemies pass their save.

Btw by RAW you don't have to track the weight of your clothes. Probably for the best, or I'm sure we'd see a lot of naked optimizing wizards and this isn't an all-adult game.

[Dusk Raven]

Fairly sure you can willingly let down your immunities.

There was a discussion about that on this very board. The consensus, or at least the opinion of the OP, was that being able to let down your immunities was silly - imagine a fire elemental letting down its fire immunity! I know you can lower your spell resistance and choose to fail saving throws, but immunities, I think, are there to stay.

[Duke of Urrel]

Fairly sure you can willingly let down your immunities.


There was a discussion about that on this very board. The consensus, or at least the opinion of the OP, was that being able to let down your immunities was silly - imagine a fire elemental letting down its fire immunity! I know you can lower your spell resistance and choose to fail saving throws, but immunities, I think, are there to stay.

I believe you can willingly suppress your immunities. The following text from the SRD's Magic Overview (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow) supports this notion.


A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.

The boldface text is mine. On page 177 of the Player's Handbook v. 3.5 (2nd printing, 2012), there's a phrase added in parentheses between "magic" and "can" in the boldface text above: "for example, an elf's resistance to sleep effects."

If an elf can suppress her resistance to sleep effects, then I believe an anarchic creature should be able to suppress its resistance to polymorph effects.