Prehensile Hair Hexcrafter Magus: How Viable?

[Amphetryon]

This is for a Kingmaker Adventure Path campaign. The concept is a Grimspawn Tiefling who takes the Claws ACF and, pending DM approval, the Tusked Racial Trait. Based on the availability of a Bite Attack ACF for Tieflings and the fact that this would be a secondary attack, this seems likely to pass muster with the DM in question. He also has the Vestigial Wings and Scaled Skin ACFs, though the latter is fluffed as particularly dense fur that also gives him the Cold Resistance 5 of the ACF that meshes with his Frostbite focus. At 4th Level, if I'm reading the Hexcrafter correctly, he snags the Prehensile Hair Hex.

I believe this gives him 2 Claw Attacks as primary, and a Bite and Hair Attack as secondary, with the Hair natively having Reach and the Claws potentially having Reach due to Long Arm. Is that correct?

Does he keep the Magus Arcana he gains at 3rd level, before he gets access to the Hex, does the Hex he gains at 4th level replace his 3rd level Magus Arcana, or is he forced to wait until 6th level to gain the Hair Attack? There's room for each interpretation as I read the text and table.

Assuming the above is kosher, what would folks recommend for this Character's build, going forward? As it may be relevant, I rolled fairly silly stats for this Character, adjusted by Race as follows:
STR 15 DEX 15 CON 15 INT 17 WIS 13 CHA 11.

[Psyren]

I believe this gives him 2 Claw Attacks as primary, and a Bite and Hair Attack as secondary, with the Hair natively having Reach and the Claws potentially having Reach due to Long Arm. Is that correct?

Yep



Does he keep the Magus Arcana he gains at 3rd level, before he gets access to the Hex, does the Hex he gains at 4th level replace his 3rd level Magus Arcana, or is he forced to wait until 6th level to gain the Hair Attack? There's room for each interpretation as I read the text and table.

You actually get the "Hex Arcana" ability right at the very start, so yes, you can replace your 3rd-level arcana with a hex if you want. It's a bit confusing since they list "Hex Magus" (a 4th-level ability) first and archetypes usually list the abilities in chronological order, but Hex Arcana has no minimum level if you read it closely.


Assuming the above is kosher, what would folks recommend for this Character's build, going forward? As it may be relevant, I rolled fairly silly stats for this Character, adjusted by Race as follows:
STR 15 DEX 15 CON 15 INT 17 WIS 13 CHA 11.

Since you're not a sorcerer, I recommend dumping Fiendish Sorcery. On a magus, I would replace it with Prehensile Tail, which gives you an extra limb to hold things like metamagic rods.

For more general build advice like spell/feat/gear selection, one of the Magus handbooks should have you covered.

[Amphetryon]

Yep



You actually get the "Hex Arcana" ability right at the very start, so yes, you can replace your 3rd-level arcana with a hex if you want. It's a bit confusing since they list "Hex Magus" (a 4th-level ability) first and archetypes usually list the abilities in chronological order, but Hex Arcana has no minimum level if you read it closely.

The part that gives me the most pause here is this:


At 4th level, the hexcrafter magus gains access to a small number of witch’s hexes. That reads as if there's no granted access to the hexes prior to this level.

[Psyren]

You're right - but since the ability with no minimum states you can pick any hex in place of a magus arcana, nothing is stopping you from doing so. As written though, it seems that you wouldn't be able to treat your magus level as a witch level for that hex until 4.

If you want a RAW-unimpeachable way of getting a hex in place of your third-level arcana, just pick a normal arcana at 3 and then retrain into a hex after you hit 4th.

[upho]

I believe this gives him 2 Claw Attacks as primary, and a Bite and Hair Attack as secondary, with the Hair natively having Reach and the Claws potentially having Reach due to Long Arm. Is that correct?The Tusked trait doesn't say anything about the bite attack losing the default primary tag, only that it takes a -5 if used as part of a full attack. So RAW, this means for example that the bite receives the damage bonuses appropriate to that of a primary attack (full Str and PA bonuses even if used as part of a full attack), and that the penalty when used as part of a full attack cannot be reduced by the Multiattack feat (which only affects secondary attacks). Hard to tell whether the bite was actually intended to be secondary or not, but considering that the trait's wording differs from that of every other option that grants a natural attack, I'd be inclined to go with the RAW. Or more likely, house rule it into functioning as either a primary or a secondary attack in all respects.

If the weird RAW feels off and your DM doesn't agree to house rule it, I'd recommend getting the (non-weird) bite via the "Claw or Maw" ACF and claws via the Fiendish Heritage feat, or that you buy a Helm of the Mammoth Lord later instead. Regardless, I suggest you and your DM carefully consider whether having three attacks at 1st level is balanced for your game (it generally isn't IME, but there are mitigating factors in this case), and, if your game is intended to continue beyond 10th level or so, how you're going to increase the number of attacks in your full attack (besides perhaps dips into otherwise unsuitable classes, the only reasonably accessible option I can think of would be buying and attaching a Fleshwarped Scorpion's Whip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/fleshwarped-scorpion-s-tail), granting you a primary sting attack). In most games, you'd probably be better off relying on polymorph spells, which means your bite and claw attacks would be wasted.


Assuming the above is kosher, what would folks recommend for this Character's build, going forward? As it may be relevant, I rolled fairly silly stats for this Character, adjusted by Race as follows:
STR 15 DEX 15 CON 15 INT 17 WIS 13 CHA 11.This depends largely on what your intended combat role is and the starting and expected end level of the campaign. Though generally speaking, since you have a reach attack and the magus has native access to size-increasing and debuffing touch spells, I think you have a good set-up for a melee control and debuff build. I'd probably first look at trip and/or action-efficient demoralization options (= Improved/Greater Trip, Bruising Intellect trait, Cornugon Smash and maybe also Intimidating Prowess and/or Soulless Gaze (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/soulless-gaze-damnation) plus Fiendskin (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/damnation-feats/fiendskin-damnation) if fits with your character concept and the campaign). If you're opting for damage, Feral Combat Training (claws) and a 2-level dip into Master of Many Styles monk for "free" IUS, Dragon Style and Dragon Ferocity might be worth considering.

[Amphetryon]

We intend to play through the entire adventure path, to my knowledge.

[upho]

Aight, so we're talking level 1 - 15+. I'm not very experienced with magus builds, but I think the general idea of what you've mentioned in the OP would work OK, and I believe a frostbite focus could be great with accurate natural attacks. But I suggest you change a few things that have poor mechanical benefits/synergies, and at least consider alternative options for a few other things:

Tusked trait - Not only does it have weird and somewhat murky RAW, but you cannot make the bite attack it grants when taking the spell combat full round action unless you also get the Natural Spell Combat (bite) arcana, and not at all when you're polymorphed. On top of that, other traits such as for example Reactionary, Magical Knack or Metamagic Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/metamagic-master) (frostbite Rime Spell FTW!) are all likely to serve you a lot better.
Prehensile Tail ACF - Replaces the useless Fiendish Sorcery and allows you to easily switch and use stuff like metamagic rods and scrolls without affecting your spell combat capacity. Most importantly, you get a trendy tail you can wag when you're happy or keep between your legs when sad! And you get it completely for free! :smallbiggrin:
Scaled Skin ACF - I'd recommend you keep Fiendish Resistance since the monstrous physique line of spells (which you're likely to use frequently) gives you a better non-stacking natural armor bonus, and Fiendish Resistance is likely to be more valuable for you anyways. You can still fluff the resistances into (flame-resistant) fur of course!
Grimspawn - The Int bonus is great of course, but the Wis penalty isn't exactly ideal and Str 17 and Dex 13 would be preferable to Str 15 and Dex 15. So if your character concept doesn't otherwise hinge on having daemon relatives, you could instead go for an oni-spawn (+2 Str/Wis, -2 Cha) and perhaps get the Fiendish Heritage feat for +2 Int if you can make room for it in your 1st level feat slot.

Here's a quick 15th level outline of a natural attack oni-spawn "superscary frost debuffer" with some of the above changes and a level 1-15 feat and hex/arcana progression:

Str 26*, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 22*, Wis 15, Cha 9
*Includes +6 from belt/headband.
Alternate Racial Traits Maw or Claw (claws), Prehensile Tail
Traits Bruising Intellect, Metamagic Master (frostbite)

1 Intimidating Prowess
3 Enforcer; Prehensile Hair hex
4 Flight hex
5 Fiendskin, Soulless Gaze
6 Misfortune hex
7 Rime Spell
9 Combat Expertise; Accurate Strike
11 Greater Trip, Improved Trip
12 Familiar (Something granting a +4 bonus to initiative. A snow hare to go with the cold theme perhaps?)
13 Dimensional Agility
15 Combat Reflexes Maneuver Mastery (trip)

[Amphetryon]

Aight, so we're talking level 1 - 15+. I'm not very experienced with magus builds, but I think the general idea of what you've mentioned in the OP would work OK, and I believe a frostbite focus could be great with accurate natural attacks. But I suggest you change a few things that have poor mechanical benefits/synergies, and at least consider alternative options for a few other things:

Tusked trait - Not only does it have weird and somewhat murky RAW, but you cannot make the bite attack it grants when taking the spell combat full round action unless you also get the Natural Spell Combat (bite) arcana, and not at all when you're polymorphed. On top of that, other traits such as for example Reactionary, Magical Knack or Metamagic Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/metamagic-master) (frostbite Rime Spell FTW!) are all likely to serve you a lot better.
Prehensile Tail ACF - Replaces the useless Fiendish Sorcery and allows you to easily switch and use stuff like metamagic rods and scrolls without affecting your spell combat capacity. Most importantly, you get a trendy tail you can wag when you're happy or keep between your legs when sad! And you get it completely for free! :smallbiggrin:
Scaled Skin ACF - I'd recommend you keep Fiendish Resistance since the monstrous physique line of spells (which you're likely to use frequently) gives you a better non-stacking natural armor bonus, and Fiendish Resistance is likely to be more valuable for you anyways. You can still fluff the resistances into (flame-resistant) fur of course!
Grimspawn - The Int bonus is great of course, but the Wis penalty isn't exactly ideal and Str 17 and Dex 13 would be preferable to Str 15 and Dex 15. So if your character concept doesn't otherwise hinge on having daemon relatives, you could instead go for an oni-spawn (+2 Str/Wis, -2 Cha) and perhaps get the Fiendish Heritage feat for +2 Int if you can make room for it in your 1st level feat slot.

Here's a quick 15th level outline of a natural attack oni-spawn "superscary frost debuffer" with some of the above changes and a level 1-15 feat and hex/arcana progression:

Str 26*, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 22*, Wis 15, Cha 9
*Includes +6 from belt/headband.
Alternate Racial Traits Maw or Claw (claws), Prehensile Tail
Traits Bruising Intellect, Metamagic Master (frostbite)

1 Intimidating Prowess
3 Enforcer; Prehensile Hair hex
4 Flight hex
5 Fiendskin, Soulless Gaze
6 Misfortune hex
7 Rime Spell
9 Combat Expertise; Accurate Strike
11 Greater Trip, Improved Trip
12 Familiar (Something granting a +4 bonus to initiative. A snow hare to go with the cold theme perhaps?)
13 Dimensional Agility
15 Combat Reflexes Maneuver Mastery (trip)


1. The 1st Level Character is in play at this point, so changes to the extant build are not happening, though I appreciate the concerns. We don't generally play with retraining rules, either. Given that the -2 WIS still leaves me with a 13 in that Stat, it's not particularly painful, especially with a good Will progression and - in all likelihood - a Familiar in his future for Alertness. I deliberately avoided the Prehensile Tail ACF to keep from making it seem entirely a Min/Max exercise (and to keep with a weird 'X-Men's Beast meets Medusa' theme in physicality).

2. As he progresses, the Character will be aiming to mutate further to add more Natural Attacks to the routine, if possible, as he's the group's primary melee combatant and damage dealer

3. Partially due to concerns about keeping the PC at power levels that are both appropriate to the rest of the party and manageable by the DM, I avoided the Prehensile Tail ACF and took the Additional Traits Feat at 1st level, so that my Traits are Tusked (retains STR to Damage as if two-handed, but is a secondary attack for all other purposes, per DM), Reactionary, Lessons of [Faith] (the 1/day reroll of a Saving Throw), and Signature Spell (Frostbite).

4. The DM is getting back to me, possibly as early as the 29th - though that's neither a guarantee nor an attempt to exert pressure on him - on how he is reading the rather poorly written Hexcrafter's Hex acquisition schedule, so planning the Hexes' timing is potentially at-odds with what will end up viable.

[Kurald Galain]

Note that prehensile hair requires a standard action to activate. If you want the ability permanently, you'd have to dip into White Haired Witch for one level.

I share the interpretation that a hexcrafter can only take hexes at level 4 and above, although I agree the wording is somewhat murky. I suggest taking the Flight hex at level 5, it is really great on a melee character. Other good choices include Misfortune and Healing, noting that a Magus shouldn't be spending move actions on the cackle hex.

Also, there's a Magus guide in my sig, if you hadn't seen it yet.

[Amphetryon]

Note that prehensile hair requires a standard action to activate. If you want the ability permanently, you'd have to dip into White Haired Witch for one level.

I share the interpretation that a hexcrafter can only take hexes at level 4 and above, although I agree the wording is somewhat murky. I suggest taking the Flight hex at level 5, it is really great on a melee character. Other good choices include Misfortune and Healing, noting that a Magus shouldn't be spending move actions on the cackle hex.

Also, there's a Magus guide in my sig, if you hadn't seen it yet.

I have seen it, thank you, Kurald; its advice informed several of my choices. :smallsmile:

[upho]

1. The 1st Level Character is in play at this point, so changes to the extant build are not happening, though I appreciate the concerns. We don't generally play with retraining rules, either. Given that the -2 WIS still leaves me with a 13 in that Stat, it's not particularly painful, especially with a good Will progression and - in all likelihood - a Familiar in his future for Alertness.Oh, your Wis won't be a problem, but having a main attack stat of 15 (Str) might very well be (sorry, I was a bit unclear in my last post).
I deliberately avoided the Prehensile Tail ACF to keep from making it seem entirely a Min/Max exercise (and to keep with a weird 'X-Men's Beast meets Medusa' theme in physicality).OK. But do you really think it would seem "entirely a Min/Max exercise" simply if you were to benefit from the main (mechanical) reason for being a tiefling to begin with, despite not giving optimized stat bonuses and you starting with 15 in your primary stat? That sounds a bit off, IMO, but I cannot do anything but speculate since I don't know anything about how powerful the builds of the other PCs in the party are (hint: tell me!), or with what level of tactical skill the other players play them in comparison to how you play your PC. (Sidenote: I also think you could simply refluff the tail as a part of your prehensile hair not used for attacking.)


2. As he progresses, the Character will be aiming to mutate further to add more Natural Attacks to the routine, if possible,You cannot use any natural attack with spell combat unless a) the attack is made by a "hand" (ie claw or prehensile hair) that you didn't use to cast the spell, or b) you have the Natural Spell Combat arcana corresponding to the attack in question. So it's very costly to add more attacks through means other than polymorphing into creatures with several attacks of the same type (ie claws) and maybe dipping into classes granting you even more attacks of a type you already have (claws) and the additional limbs they need (alchemist, summoner?). And as mentioned, any attacks bound to your normal physical form (not those added through items, (Su) abilities etc), such as your trait bite and racial claws, will most likely be redundant when you're polymorphed.
as he's the group's primary melee combatant and damage dealerWhoa, wait, say what? A damage dealer magus matches poorly with a 15 Str, Int 17, prehensile hair frostbite focus. Instead, you'd probably want 17 Str, Int 15, tons of added claw attacks (alchemist and/or sorc or bloodrager dip?) and a shocking grasp focus. Your OP had me believe that you weren't interested in a damage dealer, but a debuffer(/controller). And out of curiosity, why didn't you write this in the OP, or immediately after I had I even sorta asked for it in my first post ("This depends largely on what your intended combat role is..." and "you have a good set-up for a melee control and debuff build")?


3. Partially due to concerns about keeping the PC at power levels that are both appropriate to the rest of the party and manageable by the DM, I avoided the Prehensile Tail ACF and took the Additional Traits Feat at 1st level, so that my Traits are Tusked (retains STR to Damage as if two-handed, but is a secondary attack for all other purposes, per DM), Reactionary, Lessons of [Faith] (the 1/day reroll of a Saving Throw), and Signature Spell (Frostbite).Info on stuff like intended/set combat role and already chosen feats (if any) is typically pretty darn important in order for you to get actually useful advice and not waste people's time. So next time you ask for help, please take care to give such info in the OP. For this thread, I ask that you please list all relevant information you haven't already posted. I'm still missing for example info on other party members and the experience of the players (including basic mechanics like class, build type/combat role/other specialization), allowed sources (are certain Paizo options banned while Path of War is allowed, and/or maybe Psionics?), and the availability of magic items (will you have the equivalent of "magic marts" and/or treasure wishlists or random loot?).


4. The DM is getting back to me, possibly as early as the 29th - though that's neither a guarantee nor an attempt to exert pressure on him - on how he is reading the rather poorly written Hexcrafter's Hex acquisition schedule, so planning the Hexes' timing is potentially at-odds with what will end up viable.I think we should be able to get a pretty good picture of viable options/combos and an approximate build outline regardless of this detail. :smallsmile: