5e Bladesinger In Melee

[DracoKnight]

So, the other day, a couple of the other DMs and I started a campaign where we are all players with a rotating DM. On top of that we all decided that we would be Wizards (we belonged to a Mage's College, but got sent on their "study abroad" program) at level 5. (We said that an Arcana Cleric would count as a Wizard, but none of us wanted healing, because we decided it would be more fun/a bigger challenge) We have a Rock Gnome Conjurer, a Half-Elf Diviner, a Forest Gnome Illusionist, an Air Genasi Necromancer, and I'm playing a Feral Tiefling (winged) Bladesinger. The point of this game is purely for sh*ts-and-giggles to see how badly we can break the game by RAW, and just to have a ton of fun while doing so.

Our very first combat was against 4 Animated Armors and a Gargoyle all refluffed into statues that had been carved by this elder Dwarf-Wizard we were supposed to check in with, so that the College would know if we were still alive. I was able to charge right into melee and do just fine. I didn't get hit by any melee attacks, but the DM of the night gave them a "death burst" ability, and I took damage from that, but I got just about all of my HP back on our short rest by expending two of my hit dice.

I will keep the forum updated on how a Bladesinger fares in melee, but for my first time experience, it seems doable. It's not as tanky as a fighter or a barbarian, but it almost doesn't have to be. Not at this level, anyways. Most of the damage a Bladesinger will be taking is from saves, which I proved, and admittedly it was no Fireball, but a Fireball is going to hurt whether you're a Bladesinger or a normal Wizard. And you don't have to be in melee to get hit by a Fireball.

[Gignere]

So, the other day, a couple of the other DMs and I started a campaign where we are all players with a rotating DM. On top of that we all decided that we would be Wizards (we belonged to a Mage's College, but got sent on their "study abroad" program) at level 5. (We said that an Arcana Cleric would count as a Wizard, but none of us wanted healing, because we decided it would be more fun/a bigger challenge) We have a Conjurer, a Diviner, an Illusionist, a Necromancer, and I'm playing a Bladesinger. The point of this game is purely for sh*ts-and-giggles to see how badly we can break the game by RAW, and just to have a ton of fun while doing so.

Our very first combat was against 4 Animated Armors and a Gargoyle all refluffed into statues that had been carved by this elder Dwarf-Wizard we were supposed to check in with, so that the College would know if we were still alive. I was able to charge right into melee and do just fine. I didn't get hit by any melee attacks, but the DM of the night gave them a "death burst" ability, and I took damage from that, but I got just about all of my HP back on our short rest by expending two of my hit dice.

I will keep the forum updated on how a Bladesinger fares in melee, but for my first time experience, it seems doable. It's not as tanky as a fighter or a barbarian, but it almost doesn't have to be. Not at this level, anyways. Most of the damage a Bladesinger will be taking is from saves, which I proved, and admittedly it was no Fireball, but a Fireball is going to hurt whether you're a Bladesinger or a normal Wizard. And you don't have to be in melee to get hit by a Fireball.

A party of Level 5 and you are fighting CR 1 and CR 2 creatures and you are posting how you steam rolled them?

[Tanarii]

A party of Level 5 and you are fighting CR 1 and CR 2 creatures and you are posting how you steam rolled them?

4*Animated Armor + 1* Garygogyle = 2500 adjusted xp.

The medium encounter threshold for 4* 5th level characters is 2000 adjusted xp.

[DracoKnight]

A party of Level 5 and you are fighting CR 1 and CR 2 creatures and you are posting how you steam rolled them?

I realize that it was lower CRs, (it was way too easy, in fact. Although, their combined XP budget makes them almost on par with a CR 5) but the other Wizards were taking much higher damage. I was posting more about how the bladesinger can be in melee, and to let the forum know that I will keep them posted on this experiment of mine.

[DracoKnight]

4*Animated Armor + 1* Garygogyle = 2500 adjusted xp.

The medium encounter threshold for 4* 5th level characters is 2000 adjusted xp.

Okay, then my math was off. So it was definitely a Hard encounter then. It seemed like we still blew through it. But we are a group of Wizards with all of the utility/versatility that implies.

[DracoKnight]

And our second encounter was comprised of 5 air elementals trying to kill us.

[Tanarii]

Okay, then my math waos off. So it was definitely a Hard encounter then. It seemed like we still blew through it. But we are a group of Wizards with all of the utility/versatility that implies.
No it was medium. You go down to the nearest threshold. Unless the DMG rules are different from the publicly available per. That's what I used just now.

It's possible to get through a medium encounter without needing healing other than HD on a SR. That's what "One or more of them might need to use healing resources" means. You may or may not need to expend additional healing resources. They're supposed to burn a few spell slots, and some of your HD.


And our second encounter was comprised of 5 air elementals trying to kill us.
That's 18,000 adj-xp. Comparing to a deadly threshold of 5500, that's a 3xDeadly encounter.

[DracoKnight]

No it was medium. You go down to the nearest threshold. Unless the DMG rules are different from the publicly available per. That's what I used just now.

It's possible to get through a medium encounter without needing healing other than HD on a SR. That's what "One or more of them might need to use healing resources" means. You may or may not need to expend additional healing resources. They're supposed to burn a few spell slots, and some of your HD.

Okay, yeah, it was a Medium encounter. The Air Elementals were definitely deadly, though.

[Corran]

Very interesting thread. Please keep us posted.

[DracoKnight]

That's 18,000 adj-xp. Comparing to a deadly threshold of 5500, that's a 3xDeadly encounter.

It's only 9000XP. Could you clarify what you mean by adjusted xp?

[DracoKnight]

Very interesting thread. Please keep us posted.

I will :D

That's partially why I wanted to play a Bladesinger - to take things out of the realm of theorycrafting, and into the world of real play.

[Rajah]

I'm playing a Bladesinger in AL next week, so I am interested in how this goes as well. Though Inam going rogue 2 to start to get skills, sneak attack, and cunning action (to save spell slots instead of burning them on damage reduction all the time) and then going straight Bladesinger.

[DanyBallon]

What kind of Bladesinger are you playing? The traditionnal longsword user, or a more optimized Dex build?

[Tanarii]

It's only 9000XP. Could you clarify what you mean by adjusted xp?
Cr 5 = 1800 Xp
x5 creature = 9000 Xp (awarded)
x2 for 3-6 creatures = 18,000 xp (adjusted, for determining difficulty)

[DracoKnight]

x2 for 3-6 creatures = 18,000 xp (adjusted, for determining difficulty)

Where does this come from?

[DracoKnight]

What kind of Bladesinger are you playing? The traditionnal longsword user, or a more optimized Dex build?

Dex build. Everyone in my campaign started with one uncommon magic item, and I had a +1 Finesse Longsword. Everyone is super-optimized, since we're trying to see how much we can push the system towards breaking, by RAW.

[Tanarii]

Where does this come from?I was looking at Dungeon Master's Basic Rules v0.3 pg 56

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules

[DracoKnight]

I was looking at Dungeon Master's Basic Rules v0.3 pg 56

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/basicrules

Thank you very much. This was something that my group was unaware of. Wow. . . we've been getting way less XP than we should have.

[Malifice]

Where does this come from?

The DMG.

That should have been a TPK. Is your DM allowing you long rests between encounters?

[Tanarii]

Thank you very much. This was something that my group was unaware of. Wow. . . we've been getting way less XP than we should have.It doesn't give you more xp. It is a tool to judge the potential difficulty of encounters, and anticipate how often the players will need a long rest.

[DracoKnight]

The DMG.

That should have been a TPK. Is your DM allowing you long rests between encounters?

1 long rest per day.

[Knaight]

Thank you very much. This was something that my group was unaware of. Wow. . . we've been getting way less XP than we should have.


It doesn't give you more xp. It is a tool to judge the potential difficulty of encounters, and anticipate how often the players will need a long rest.

RAW agrees with Tanarii on this one. With that said, I suspect that is relatively heavily houseruled, if only because that XP split makes even less sense than the rest of the experience rules in setting.

[Zman]

Thank you very much. This was something that my group was unaware of. Wow. . . we've been getting way less XP than we should have.

No, that adjusted XP value is Bly for determining how difficult an encounter will be. XP awards are still the same.

[Malifice]

1 long rest per day.

Yeah, but how many encounters between long rests?

[DracoKnight]

Yeah, but how many encounters between long rests?

6 encounters/day, 2 short rests/day, 2 encounters/rest

Fairly standard.

Those elementals kicked our @$$es though, after 3 rounds we were all bloodied and most of us had spent our 3rd level spell slots on Fireballs, except for me. I had one 3rd level slot left, the elementals were at 60 hit points, so I decided to cast a 3rd level Sleep, and rolled for (in front of the DM) 61 hit points, and we put the elementals to sleep and the DM let us kill them in their sleep. My party was very happy to no longer be fighting the elementals.

[Malifice]

6 encounters/day, 2 short rests/day, 2 encounters/rest

Fairly standard.

Those elementals kicked our @$$es though, after 3 rounds we were all bloodied and most of us had spent our 3rd level spell slots on Fireballs, except for me. I had one 3rd level slot left, the elementals were at 60 hit points, so I decided to cast a 3rd level Sleep, and rolled for (in front of the DM) 61 hit points, and we put the elementals to sleep and the DM let us kill them in their sleep. My party was very happy to no longer be fighting the elementals.

Yeah, you should all be dead.

Air elemental: Condition Immunities: Exhaustion, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, prone, restrained, unconscious

From the Sleep spell:

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake.

Your spell doesnt work, and they proceed to kill you.

[DracoKnight]

Yeah, you should all be dead.

Air elemental: Condition Immunities: Exhaustion, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, poisoned, prone, restrained, unconscious

From the Sleep spell:

Starting with the creature that has the lowest current hit points, each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake.

Your spell doesnt work, and they proceed to kill you.

By RAW, yes. But the DM has spoken. It's more like he was using 5 Air Elemental statblocks to represent one giant creature anyways. He removed a couple of the immunities.

[Malifice]

By RAW, yes. But the DM has spoken. It's more like he was using 5 Air Elemental statblocks to represent one giant creature anyways. He removed a couple of the immunities.

Sounds like he removed a lot to reduce the challenge. Removing immunities, houseruling auto death when asleep etc.

5 x CR 5 elementals is an adjusted difficulty of 18,000xp. Which just adds up to a deadly encounter for 5 x 11th level PC's.

5 X elementals should have wiped the floor with lower level PC's.

[Tanarii]

If it was run as a single creature with damage equal to an air elemental, a single action, but 5x hit points, wouldn't even be worth 9000 Xp (ie one elemental x5). It'd need its own recalculated CR, probably a lot lower than that.

Then on top of that its difficulty multiplier would only be one, not two.

So I can see it coming in somewhere between deadly (5500 xp) and 1.5 deadly (9000 xp) if that's how it was run.

(Not trying to put down your encounter, or the DM. Just trying to figure out how you survived a seemingly impossible encounter. ;) )

[Dalebert]

You keep saying "by RAW". I don't think that word means what you think it means. ;) You can't play a tiefling blade singer by RAW.

[DracoKnight]

You keep saying "by RAW". I don't think that word means what you think it means. ;) You can't play a tiefling blade singer by RAW.

Technically you can since in the Rules As Written for the Bladesinger, it says that the DM can wave the elf restriction on the Bladesinger.

[Zman]

Technically you can since in the Rules As Written for the Bladesinger, it says that the DM can wave the elf restriction on the Bladesinger.

Technically the DM is given permission and can do whatever they want, but that doesn't make it RAW. :smallwink:

[DracoKnight]

Technically the DM is given permission and can do whatever they want, but that doesn't make it RAW. :smallwink:

But it literally said in the book, that the restriction in by no means universal, but you're not wrong :smallwink:

[Zman]

But it literally said in the book, that the restriction in by no means universal, but you're not wrong :smallwink:

It actually says "Restriction :Elves Only" Followed by a Paragraph that says "Only elves and half-elves can choose the bladesinger arcane tradition. In the world of Faerfln, elves closely guard the secrets of bladesinging."

Then in a following paragraph it says the DM can remove that restriction which is actually redundant as the DM allready had permission to make any such changes to any classes they see fit.

It amounts to you cannot assume you can be a Bladesinger in any game, for instance if you were playing in an Adventure League you absolutely could not and would have to be an Elf for Half Elf as per RAW. A DM can ok it, just like a DM can ok any houserule, homebrew, etc.

[Dalebert]

Then in a following paragraph it says the DM can remove that restriction which is actually redundant as the DM allready had permission to make any such changes to any classes they see fit.


Of course. The DM can make any house rules they want. But it's not RAW. That makes the term meaningless if you decree any house rule to be RAW.

[Gignere]

The other RAW besides Elementals falling asleep and Tiefling BS is the +1 finesse longsword. That is so RAW:smallwink:

[Theodoxus]

The other RAW besides Elementals falling asleep and Tiefling BS is the +1 finesse longsword. That is so RAW:smallwink:

LOL - I was thinking the same thing... I mean, if you're gonna test RAW, test RAW. Don't homebrew some crap, claim it's RAW and that the BS is so great in melee when anyone else, playing AL, for instance - won't have anywhere near the same experience.

In fact, go play strict AL with your bladesinger, if you want to know how it really is - and then come back and report THAT experience. It'll be a 180, I'm sure.

[DracoKnight]

The other RAW besides Elementals falling asleep and Tiefling BS is the +1 finesse longsword. That is so RAW:smallwink:

We all started off with an uncommon magic item. I believe I stated that.

[DracoKnight]

LOL - I was thinking the same thing... I mean, if you're gonna test RAW, test RAW. Don't homebrew some crap, claim it's RAW and that the BS is so great in melee when anyone else, playing AL, for instance - won't have anywhere near the same experience.

In fact, go play strict AL with your bladesinger, if you want to know how it really is - and then come back and report THAT experience. It'll be a 180, I'm sure.

I'm playing a strict AL bladesinger and it's been a lot the same - minus the magic sword.

[Gignere]

We all started off with an uncommon magic item. I believe I stated that.

WTF do you know what RAW stand for? Hint: It is not the +1 that is the issue.

[Dalebert]

Dude... please... Just stop tossing around terms like "strict" and "RAW" so flippantly. Lordy. We are waaaay past that now.

On a slight side-note, I'm a strict vegan. I eat meat sometimes though.

[Malifice]

Dude... please... Just stop tossing around terms like "strict" and "RAW" so flippantly. Lordy. We are waaaay past that now.

On a slight side-note, I'm a strict vegan. I eat meat sometimes though.

I had a friend describe himself as an 'Agnostic theist'.

That the inconsistency of that statement wasnt immediately apparent surprised me.

[DracoKnight]

I'm playing a strict AL bladesinger and it's been a lot the same - minus the magic sword.


Dude... please... Just stop tossing around terms like "strict" and "RAW" so flippantly. Lordy. We are waaaay past that now.

On a slight side-note, I'm a strict vegan. I eat meat sometimes though.

Let me clarify: there is a second game that I'm playing in - and I'm a High-Elf Bladesinger.

[DracoKnight]

WTF do you know what RAW stand for? Hint: It is not the +1 that is the issue.

I do, and I don't appreciate this. If you don't like that a *magical* sword could be finessed, please see your way out of this thread. No one made you read it.

And if we're looking at what's available by RAW, it's exactly equal to a +1 rapier, since I can't use the Versatile property and Bladesong, the two are incompatible. I liked the visual of a longsword over a rapier and my group read the rules on bladesingers using a melee weapon two-handed, and okayed it.


Dude... please... Just stop tossing around terms like "strict" and "RAW" so flippantly. Lordy. We are waaaay past that now.

On a slight side-note, I'm a strict vegan. I eat meat sometimes though.

Is this really necessary? I said that I was *also* playing a strict AL bladesinger, not that *this* was it :P

[Requiemforlust]

Dude... please... Just stop tossing around terms like "strict" and "RAW" so flippantly. Lordy. We are waaaay past that now.

On a slight side-note, I'm a strict vegan. I eat meat sometimes though.


WTF do you know what RAW stand for? Hint: It is not the +1 that is the issue.

I'm with DracoKnight on this. Both of you can go **** yourselves. I'm pretty sure that insulting people's intelligence is against forum rules somewhere.


I'm playing a strict AL bladesinger and it's been a lot the same - minus the magic sword.


I do, and I don't appreciate this. If you don't like that a *magical* sword could be finessed, please see your way out of this thread. No one made you read it.

And if we're looking at what's available by RAW, it's exactly equal to a +1 rapier, since I can't use the Versatile property and Bladesong, the two are incompatible. I liked the visual of a longsword over a rapier and my group read the rules on bladesingers using a melee weapon two-handed, and okayed it.



Is this really necessary? I said that I was *also* playing a strict AL bladesinger, not that *this* was it :P

Actually you said that you are "playing a strict AL bladesinger . . ." If I'm going to defend you, the least you can do is not be sloppy when you're trying to back yourself up. You do go on to say "and it's been a lot the same" but you're missing the "also", so it might not be clear right away.

[Gignere]

I'm with DracoKnight on this. Both of you can go **** yourselves. I'm pretty sure that insulting people's intelligence is against forum rules somewhere.





Actually you said that you are "playing a strict AL bladesinger . . ." If I'm going to defend you, the least you can do is not be sloppy when you're trying to back yourself up. You do go on to say "and it's been a lot the same" but you're missing the "also", so it might not be clear right away.

The only one trying to insult our intelligence is the OP. You can't post in a thread and claim your group is trying to test the limits of the BS by RAW(rules as written) and immediately give various examples that breaks RAW right off the bat. Especially the certain wipe with the 5 elementals, which was just one giant home brew monster that the DM called an elemental.

So right there OP should say ok we should have wiped and our test is inconclusive whether the BS is effective as melee frontline based on RAW. Especially since what saved their bacon from the home brew monster wasn't the BS melee. Yet he still claims the RAW effectiveness of the BS's melee abilities.

[DracoKnight]

The only one trying to insult our intelligence is the OP. You can't post in a thread and claim your group is trying to test the limits of the BS by RAW(rules as written) and immediately give various examples that breaks RAW right off the bat. Especially the certain wipe with the 5 elementals, which was just one giant home brew monster that the DM called an elemental.

So right there OP should say ok we should have wiped and our test is inconclusive whether the BS is effective as melee frontline based on RAW. Especially since what saved their bacon from the home brew monster wasn't the BS melee. Yet he still claims the RAW effectiveness of the BS's melee abilities.

This wasn't a one shot, it's a campaign. And we're trying to break the game with wizards in general - not the bladesinger. We were going straight RAW for character creation - no homebrew, or other houserules my group usually plays with, minus the lift of the bladesinger restriction. For our purposes RAW doesn't matter when it comes to monsters.

[Zman]

This wasn't a one shot, it's a campaign. And we're trying to break the game with wizards in general - not the bladesinger. We were going straight RAW for character creation - no homebrew, or other houserules my group usually plays with, minus the lift of the bladesinger restriction. For our purposes RAW doesn't matter when it comes to monsters.

You aren't playing strict RAW with a BS if you didn't make it past character creation without house rules and DM hand waving.

A wizards trying to break the game campaign is really a terrible tested for Bs melee as it isn't even close to a normal game.

Makes the whole thread kind of pointless IMO.

[Dalebert]

Let me clarify: there is a second game that I'm playing in - and I'm a High-Elf Bladesinger.

I hadn't caught that. In my defense, a lot of people apparently didn't. So that is the "strict RAW" game you're referring to? In that one, I assume you don't have a finesse longsword?

EDIT: I just re-read the OP and you very clearly refer to your tiefling bladesinger game with "by RAW". I remain confused.


I do, and I don't appreciate this. If you don't like that a *magical* sword could be finessed, please see your way out of this thread. No one made you read it.

And if we're looking at what's available by RAW, it's exactly equal to a +1 rapier, since I can't use the Versatile property and Bladesong, the two are incompatible. I liked the visual of a longsword over a rapier and my group read the rules on bladesingers using a melee weapon two-handed, and okayed it.

Not exactly. Even mechanically it's not. A rapier would require you to use your one extra weapon proficiency on rapiers, presumably before you have any idea what magic items are going to drop during play. And you certainly wouldn't be voting on what magic items dropped. That's strictly the purview of the DM. You can't tailor an item to a character as you could in 3.x, or rather tailor your character with magic items as was often done since crafting of items is definitely an optional rule and not RAW. So it's somewhat mechanically significant that you have a finesse magic weapon you can use that does a d8 instead of a d6; not hugely but somewhat. It's relevant is all I'm saying.

[Vogonjeltz]

I had a friend describe himself as an 'Agnostic theist'.

That the inconsistency of that statement wasnt immediately apparent surprised me.

So...an agnostic, but really really really wishes they could firmly call themselves a theist?


EDIT: I just re-read the OP and you very clearly refer to your tiefling bladesinger game with "by RAW". I remain confused.

I disagree with his conclusion that it's RAW, as it is not actually a rule per se, but he was justifying it by the text in the Bladesinger entry that indicates a DM can (of course) wave the racial requirement. So, if you accept his parameters, his reasoning is fine on that point.

The larger problem is, as has been mentioned, that there are far too many non-standard variants in play here to reach any kind of meaningful conclusion and the actual capabilities of the Bladesinger didn't seem to be particularly beneficial over any other Wizard school.

[Dalebert]

Anyone else feeling like the bladesinger is extremely front-heavy? Their best things seem to come at 2nd. Two attacks is nice enough but not that great once you're a 6th level wizard and have stronger cantrips and more spells. The other stuff seems kind of disappointing as well compared to what other wizards are getting. Meanwhile. compare what bladesingers get at 2nd to any other 2nd level wizard archetype abilities and it's amazing.

[Gignere]

Anyone else feeling like the bladesinger is extremely front-heavy? Their best things seem to come at 2nd. Two attacks is nice enough but not that great once you're a 6th level wizard and have stronger cantrips and more spells. The other stuff seems kind of disappointing as well compared to what other wizards are getting. Meanwhile. compare what bladesingers get at 2nd to any other 2nd level wizard archetype abilities and it's amazing.

About as frontloaded as the diviner. They have to do that for the BS because they are trying to make melee less of a suicide for the wizard chassis. I mean who cares if you become a melee God at level 11 if you need to play like any other wizard for 10 levels.

[DracoKnight]

The larger problem is, as has been mentioned, that there are far too many non-standard variants in play here to reach any kind of meaningful conclusion and the actual capabilities of the Bladesinger didn't seem to be particularly beneficial over any other Wizard school.

The Feral Tiefling (variant I'm using) has +2 Dex, +1 Int just like the high elf. . . so how are we not seeing the actual capabilities? Is it literally JUST BECAUSE it's not an elf? It's essentially the same statblock with a different skin, and one less Wizard cantrip.

[DracoKnight]

Not exactly. Even mechanically it's not. A rapier would require you to use your one extra weapon proficiency on rapiers, presumably before you have any idea what magic items are going to drop during play. And you certainly wouldn't be voting on what magic items dropped. That's strictly the purview of the DM. You can't tailor an item to a character as you could in 3.x, or rather tailor your character with magic items as was often done since crafting of items is definitely an optional rule and not RAW. So it's somewhat mechanically significant that you have a finesse magic weapon you can use that does a d8 instead of a d6; not hugely but somewhat. It's relevant is all I'm saying.

I used my free weapon proficiency from the Bladesinger to pick up longswords. Since Tieflings don't get racial weapons.

[Requiemforlust]

Any updates on how Bladesingers do in melee?

[DracoKnight]

Any updates on how Bladesingers do in melee?

Nope. My group hasn't met in about 3 weeks. Which is a horrible sorrow...but it's Christmas break - we all went home :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm with DracoKnight on this. Both of you can go **** yourselves. I'm pretty sure that insulting people's intelligence is against forum rules somewhere.
If you can link to that, it might also be useful in a few dozen other threads.

(PS: I just Ctrl+f'd the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)and found that intelligence is a word not found on that page. I thus find it difficult to support that insulting someone's intelligence is against the forum rules ... not that I'd recommend it in any case).

[Requiemforlust]

If you can link to that, it might also be useful in a few dozen other threads.

(PS: I just Ctrl+f'd the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)and found that intelligence is a word not found on that page. I thus find it difficult to support that insulting someone's intelligence is against the forum rules ... not that I'd recommend it in any case).

My mistake. I thought I'd read it somewhere in the rules. Oh well... *sigh* regardless...it's impolite, and manners maketh man.

[MaxWilson]

If you can link to that, it might also be useful in a few dozen other threads.

(PS: I just Ctrl+f'd the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)and found that intelligence is a word not found on that page. I thus find it difficult to support that insulting someone's intelligence is against the forum rules ... not that I'd recommend it in any case).

You might be thinking of this:


Specific things you cannot do on this message board that might be allowed elsewhere:
...
Posts that while directed at another's post content are inherently insulting to the poster, such as, "Your comment is moronic/insane/nonsensical."

So, insulting people's intelligence is forbidden.

RE: Bladesingers, I have a Forest Gnome Rogue 1 right now who is planning on going Rogue 2/Bladesinger X eventually, mostly for the visuals of not having to wear armor. From a pure power standpoint, a Rogue 2/Necromancer X would be obviously superior (AC is mostly redundant when you already have Cunning Action to hide every round; and Necromancers have a fantastic concentration/action economy) but a Necromancer wouldn't fit the concept or the party. But yes, Bladesinging as a tradition is somewhat front-loaded. That doesn't mean that Bladesingers are front-loaded, since wizards are obviously not front-loaded, and I'm looking forward to someday Shapechanging into a AC 25 Ancient White Dragon with Cunning Action, Song of Defense, and an extra +5 on all bite/claw/tail attacks.

[maxmcgloin]

78% of all DM's start their first campaign in a tavern. If you're among the 22% who didn't, copy and paste this into your signature and tell us where you DID begin.

The party started out in a haunted house, which had been cursed by the demon lord who had caused the party-wipe of their last characters.

My Homebrew


78% of my real life adventures began in a tavern. ;)

[Bellberith]

Just came here to say my experience with bladesinger so far from level 3 to level 9 has been fantastic.

Have been a player in a Princes of the Apocalypse game and i have to say the Bladesinger really stands out as an overwhelming melee class. With Absorb elements and a high dex, AoE does little to me. While in melee combat i always have Blur and Bladesong active. Depending on which point in the game we are talking about i have had anywhere between 21-23 AC and the enemies take disadvantage while attacking me. With shield it increases by another 5. Large clusters of enemies get destroyed with fireball or other AoEs. If it is only a handful my Melee prowess is more than enough.

Honestly, throughout the entire game i haven't gotten hit through my AC + Shield + Blur by an attack roll of any sort. The only enemies who could (sacred stone monks with tremorsense) happened to be very weak and were easy to deal with. The only damage i take is through AoE attacks, and even that is minimized due to dex save and/or absorb elements, or a counterspell depending on how many casters there are in the encounter.

So in my experience, they are a bit overpowered for the low level - early mid level games. I feel like an Eldritch Knight that can spam spells while having much more utility and survive-ability.

Edit: Actually, i feel like levels i have used it with are so unchallenging i might need to switch it up to feel like i am in danger again during encounters. (DM has been running the module on hard mode by increasing the difficulty of every encounter, we are appropriate level with appropriate gear handed out by the module alone.)

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Princes of the Apocalypse
Bladesinger
Absorb elements

Wouldn't that be illegal in AL? Absorb Elements is from EE, Bladesinger is from FR. Can't use both together

[Bellberith]

Wouldn't that be illegal in AL? Absorb Elements is from EE, Bladesinger is from FR. Can't use both together

I'm not in AL. also, why would someone not be able to use a spell in a different book if they are a wizard? So all the races / archetypes from SCAG are completely locked out of an entire spell list? Likewise for EE to SCAG. No eldritch knight goliaths i guess. Considering the melee cantrips are the best thing to ever happen to EK. IMO that is a stupid rule.

Now, aside from that, the number of times i actually had to use absorb elements i can count on one hand, because generally i save my reaction for shield or counterspell. Not having the spell wouldn't change much for me anyway.

[HoarsHalberd]

If you can link to that, it might also be useful in a few dozen other threads.

(PS: I just Ctrl+f'd the forum rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)and found that intelligence is a word not found on that page. I thus find it difficult to support that insulting someone's intelligence is against the forum rules ... not that I'd recommend it in any case).

In my early days I was drawn into a heated debate with someone who refused to listen and was given a warning: "Doing this turns into attacking the poster instead of their points." Attacking the poster, like the quoted individuals have been doing, is not allowed.

[Dalebert]

Wouldn't that be illegal in AL? Absorb Elements is from EE, Bladesinger is from FR. Can't use both together

Actually wizards have a loophole. If they can find the spell in a book or on a scroll, they can copy it. It seems really unfair to other casters. It seems to me that if a sorcerer comes across the spell, like having it used against them or seeing an ally use it, they should be able to choose it later.

[Bellberith]

Actually wizards have a loophole. If they can find the spell in a book or on a scroll, they can copy it. It seems really unfair to other casters. It seems to me that if a sorcerer comes across the spell, like having it used against them or seeing an ally use it, they should be able to choose it later.

This makes the rule even more stupid.

However, my experience with the Bladesinger remains the same. The archetype seems to one of the most overwhelming in terms of power for at the very least levels 3 to 9.

[Jigawatts]

Just came here to say my experience with bladesinger so far from level 3 to level 9 has been fantastic.

Have been a player in a Princes of the Apocalypse game and i have to say the Bladesinger really stands out as an overwhelming melee class. With Absorb elements and a high dex, AoE does little to me. While in melee combat i always have Blur and Bladesong active. Depending on which point in the game we are talking about i have had anywhere between 21-23 AC and the enemies take disadvantage while attacking me. With shield it increases by another 5. Large clusters of enemies get destroyed with fireball or other AoEs. If it is only a handful my Melee prowess is more than enough.

Honestly, throughout the entire game i haven't gotten hit through my AC + Shield + Blur by an attack roll of any sort. The only enemies who could (sacred stone monks with tremorsense) happened to be very weak and were easy to deal with. The only damage i take is through AoE attacks, and even that is minimized due to dex save and/or absorb elements, or a counterspell depending on how many casters there are in the encounter.

So in my experience, they are a bit overpowered for the low level - early mid level games. I feel like an Eldritch Knight that can spam spells while having much more utility and survive-ability.

Edit: Actually, i feel like levels i have used it with are so unchallenging i might need to switch it up to feel like i am in danger again during encounters. (DM has been running the module on hard mode by increasing the difficulty of every encounter, we are appropriate level with appropriate gear handed out by the module alone.)

Would you mind going into detail on your offensive melee capabilities. It seems clear cut that the Bladesinger is set up to be a defensive powerhouse, but I'm curious how they do at offense.

[WMO?]

From Sleep spell description:

...each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake...

Your DM's call to ignore this (if they knew it) and the elementals' immunities (if they knew them) and allow you guys to finish them off is one I might not make, although I can see the Rule of Cool motivation and reasoning for doing so after that excellent Sleep roll on your part.

I like the idea of this thread a lot, because number-crunching and theory-crafting are usually only as useful as the theorist's imagination can stretch, and gamers get their characters and builds into some crazy things that no one would anticipate. This could be a great trend, people reporting the player experience and efficacy of their builds. Of course, its all very subjective, and dependent on the other party members and GM how encounters go, but you do get a sense of the build over time that has objective meaning, as Bellberith reported.

Two thing you could do to improve your reporting and make your stories even more informative:
- Provide more context, like how you got into the encounter (diplomacy beforehand? ambush? random wilderness encounter), what the terrain was like, whether your party made any preparations or strategies in advance, whether the DM played the enemies with intelligence from your perspective
- Some advanced/specific numbers: number of rounds of combat (including any surprise rounds), spell slots spent, encounter difficulty (learning the Adjusted Encounter XP rules from the DMG or Basic Rules would be very useful to you, even though they don't get your character more XP), number of rests previous, number and type of combats previous, etc.

Hope people don't flame too much, this is a valiant effort and a good idea! Let's not kill it with hair-splitting or touchiness about terminology, as much as that is Our Thing.

[DracoKnight]

From Sleep spell description:

...each creature affected by this spell falls unconscious until the spell ends, the sleeper takes damage, or someone uses an action to shake or slap the sleeper awake...

Your DM's call to ignore this (if they knew it) and the elementals' immunities (if they knew them) and allow you guys to finish them off is one I might not make, although I can see the Rule of Cool motivation and reasoning for doing so after that excellent Sleep roll on your part.

I don't know if the DM knew it or not, but it happened, our group has moved on. (We're a group that likes to stick to RAW for spell and ability text, but if someone screws up one time, it's not a huge deal).


I like the idea of this thread a lot, because number-crunching and theory-crafting are usually only as useful as the theorist's imagination can stretch, and gamers get their characters and builds into some crazy things that no one would anticipate. This could be a great trend, people reporting the player experience and efficacy of their builds. Of course, its all very subjective, and dependent on the other party members and GM how encounters go, but you do get a sense of the build over time that has objective meaning, as Bellberith reported.

I'm glad that this thread could be of some use :smallsmile:


Two thing you could do to improve your reporting and make your stories even more informative:
- Provide more context, like how you got into the encounter (diplomacy beforehand? ambush? random wilderness encounter), what the terrain was like, whether your party made any preparations or strategies in advance, whether the DM played the enemies with intelligence from your perspective
- Some advanced/specific numbers: number of rounds of combat (including any surprise rounds), spell slots spent, encounter difficulty (learning the Adjusted Encounter XP rules from the DMG or Basic Rules would be very useful to you, even though they don't get your character more XP), number of rests previous, number and type of combats previous, etc.

I will take all of this into consideration after our next session, which will hopefully be sometime in the next week :smallsmile:


Hope people don't flame too much, this is a valiant effort and a good idea! Let's not kill it with hair-splitting or touchiness about terminology, as much as that is Our Thing.

Thank you, I will be reporting again, when I have more to report :smallbiggrin:

[Bellberith]

Would you mind going into detail on your offensive melee capabilities. It seems clear cut that the Bladesinger is set up to be a defensive powerhouse, but I'm curious how they do at offense.

Well, because i was so tanky, i wasn't afraid of being in the thick of it. My damage was very good since at lower levels i was using Green-Flame Blade, and when it got buffed at level 5 it made up for not having a second attack since it became stronger itself.

Most enemies had between 9-45hp throughout the module so far, they all died within a few hits, especially once i got going at 5th level it was easier for me to kill additional targets after my first one because Green-Flame Blade always weakened the second target by a fair amount. When i got my second attack it honestly didn't change my DPR very much, Green-Flame Blade was my go-to for 2 targets, and attacking twice was better for one. I never had to worry about focus fire since i was so tanky they couldn't hit me, so i could just focus on whatever killed them the fastest to conserve buff time.

At no point did i have inferior damage to the Fighter or Rogue in melee combat. And ranged combat (didn't do often) i would just use firebolt. If there were a cluster of enemies a fireball swiftly took care of them.

There are spells i use in case i feel threatened by enemy casters like hold person or maximillian's earthen grasp, to take them out of the fight. And if a few enemies are weakened Sleep is really nice. Finish the fight and walk around getting crits on the sleeping fools.

Overall i can safely say that even while be the tankiest in the group, i have the most utility in the group being a full wizard, and i also put out the most damage by a good margin. ESPECIALLY after i picked up Tinderstrike.... It is a legendary dagger that is a +2 weapon and deals an additional 2d6 damage on hit. Swapped out my Rapier for that. Since the Princes of the Apocalypse module is open-ended with random encounters as you go, the Eternal Flame Temple was actually the second temple we went to destroy. The first being Black Earth Temple. Just the way our game developed.


Edit: For the additional information asked for by WMO?... Most encounters once we got started were straightforward. We allied ourselves with the feathergale knights at first and our primary enemies were the earth and fire cults so we didn't use any infiltration tactics with them. We wanted those two cults dead so we did kick in the door style. Rivergard keep we had to take out somewhere in between because they wouldn't stop attacking us. That was a stealth mission.

As for duration of encounters... Depending on what your definition of encounter is, could be a long time or a short time. Some Temples and Outposts were fairly long, but the individual fights never lasted more than a few rounds. My buffs could go through 2 - 5 separate fights before i had to cast them again. If the fights ever looked like it would be a pain to fight as many as there were, i would cast fireball or another AoE. If there were only a few of them we would hack them down and keep moving. With the Alert feat i was the pointman for entering any place.

Even though it sounds like im casting spells left and right, i was actually fairly conservative. I didn't need to cast spells that often because even without shield, the chances for enemies to hit my AC with disadv were slim. The only time i felt a dent in my spell slots was when fighting other casters. Counterspell for anything dangerous being cast at us, and hold person to take them out of the fight if the situation wasn't looking good. I would promptly run over to the paralyzed caster and critcritcritcritcrit till he was dead.

Our group would short rest when i had expended both of my Bladesongs. So i could get them both back and a few spells with arcane recovery. (This is one of the things i don't like about Bladesinger, the party revolves rests and most play around you because if played correctly, you will be the vanguard, the damage dealer, and the utility master. Unless there are other wizards to help take this burden.)

To be completely honest, as i said in my earlier post, Bladesinger seems a little broken (OP) for the levels i been able to play it so far.

[Dalebert]

Would you mind going into detail on your offensive melee capabilities. It seems clear cut that the Bladesinger is set up to be a defensive powerhouse, but I'm curious how they do at offense.

Their spells. When you have bladesong and blur up, you get nigh impossible to hit. I know this from personal experience. Creatures literally gave up on opportunity attacks against my character because it was a total waste of their reaction.

Move in. Cast Booming Blade. Move back out. Scoff at them if they're stupid enough to waste their reaction trying to hit you, or just Shield if needed. Now taunt them to close with you or anyone else. I can't recall ever having used Shield yet while bladesinging and for sure not while blurred. Bladesong plus Blur may as well be the Mobile feat and then some.

[Bellberith]

Their spells. When you have bladesong and blur up, you get nigh impossible to hit. I know this from personal experience. Creatures literally gave up on opportunity attacks against my character because it was a total waste of their reaction.

Move in. Cast Booming Blade. Move back out. Scoff at them if they're stupid enough to waste their reaction trying to hit you, or just Shield if needed. Now taunt them to close with you or anyone else. I can't recall ever having used Shield yet while bladesinging and for sure not while blurred. Bladesong plus Blur may as well be the Mobile feat and then some.

Yep, exactly this, except i found Green-Flame Blade more DPR vs 2 targets and extra attack is more DPR vs a single target.

Edit: Almost forgot to mention higher level buffs like greater invis are fantastic with Bladesinger.

[DracoKnight]

So last night we finally got the chance to play again...there were 5 of us - all level 5 - and we fought and killed (in order of encounter) 1 Bandit Captain + 5 Bandits, 4 Azer, 15 Kuo-Toa, 1 Horned Devil, and 1 Adult Red Dragon. The last two SHOULD have killed us. Honestly, if I wasn't Bladesinging + having blur cast, it could have been a TPK in either fight. The horned devil went down in 3 rounds, and none of us dropped. Basically, I got in his face and spammed booming blade so that he wouldn't go after the party, while the hit him with higher DPR spells.

The fight against the Adult Red Dragon was a lot more challenging, and in the second round 4 of us got dropped after dealing...I think it was 120 damage to it in the first round. After everyone got dropped, I dropped blur and cast haste that I could get multiple attacks per round. One of the other wizards succeed on two of his death saves and crit succeeded on his final save, so he popped back up with 1 HP. He used his last spell slot to enlarge me, and I grabbed the horned devil's pitchfork (which was also a dragonslayer) and started doling out damage using that and my sword. 4 rounds later, and the dragon was dead (the wizard who cast enlarge was attacking via ray of frost). It was a grueling night, and one of our number died (two crit-failed death saves), the DM announced that we had done well, and he honestly hadn't been pulling his punches (and he hadn't. Legendary Actions are a b!tch).

In a plot twist, the horned devil was also supposed to be an RP encounter - it was keeping the dragon imprisoned. So had we not killed it, the night would have been fine.

Our party consists of:

Forest Gnome Illusionist Wizard
Rock Gnome Conjuration Wizard (now dead)
Air Genasi Necromancer Wizard
Half-Drow Diviner Wizard
Tiefling Bladesinger Wizard (me)

Again, I'll keep everyone posted on how the Bladesinger does in melee, but last night...I was kicking serious ass.

[Malifice]

The horned devil went down in 3 rounds, and none of us dropped. Basically, I got in his face and spammed booming blade so that he wouldn't go after the party, while the hit him with higher DPR spells.

Why on earth would a Horned devil care about 9 (2d8) points of thunder damage from a 5th level booming blade cantrip?


The fight against the Adult Red Dragon was a lot more challenging, and in the second round 4 of us got dropped after dealing...I think it was 120 damage to it in the first round. After everyone got dropped, I dropped blur and cast haste that I could get multiple attacks per round.

Why is an Adult red dragon fighting you in melee?

How on earth did you survive:

Frightful Presence. Each creature of the dragon's choice that is within 120 feet of the dragon and aware of it must succeed on a DC 19 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature's saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to the dragon's Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours.

Fire Breath (Recharge 5-6). The dragon exhales fire in a 60-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a DC 21 Dexterity saving throw, taking 63 (18d6) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

Your party of 5th level PCs passed a DC 19 Wisdom save and a DC 21 Dex save?


Our party consists of:

Forest Gnome Illusionist Wizard
Rock Gnome Conjuration Wizard (now dead)
Air Genasi Necromancer Wizard
Half-Drow Diviner Wizard
Tiefling Bladesinger Wizard (me)


All long rest based classes. The 5 minute adventuring day is alive and well at your table I see.

How did a party of 5 wizards pass the DC 21 Dex saves against its fire breath? Thats... 63 fire damage on an average roll, every third round on average. Your average 5th level wizard has like 32 hit points even assuming a Con of 14.

I suppose you could have all spammed protection from elements (fire) if you had advance warning or initiative (which grants you all resistance) and the Tiefling gets it out of the box, but you're not all passing DC 21 Dex saves as wizards (unless you all roll natural 20's pretty much). Even with resistance, the DC 16+ Con saves to keep any concentration spells running (like protection from elements) is going to suck.

It has three legendary resistances to soak anything you can dish at it before its first turn.

And even assuming melee, it first uses a wing attack (DC 22 Dex save) to automatically knock you prone and deal 15 (2d6+8) damage, and then (with advantage) attacks three times at +14. It deals 19 (2d10 + 8) piercing damage plus 7 (2d6) fire on the first attack and 15 (2d6 + 8) slashing damage on attacks two and three. Assuming a bling dex and int on your bladesinger, shield spell and mage armor, the dragon needs a 10 to hit you. Most likely at advantage.

The Horned devils pitchfork you're using (I assume it was statted as a versatile trident, because if it was 2 handed you cant use it and bladesong at the same time) isnt a finesse weapon, and youre almost certainly attacking at disadvantage (from fear) vs AC 19 at +3 or +4 max.

Congrats on the win mate, but I'm not sure your DM was playing either monster well.

On round 1 (if it loses initiative) it uses wing attack to knock any adjacent PCs prone and then flies away 60' up as part of the same action on its first legendary action after the first PCs turn. When its turn comes around it then uses frightful presence and breathes via a massive AoE cone attack likely killing everyone in this party. It relies on its legendary saves, AC 19, 250+ HP, and flight to stay out of range and torches you all again in a round or two.

Once youre down to a single PC or two left, it uses a legendary action after whichever PC has a turn immediately before its next action to fly down, and then immediately uses its turn after this action to rip the still standing PC to shreds (PC 1 makes a stabilisation check, then the dragon flies down 60' and ends its legendary action... and then its the dragons turn to attack PC 2). Assuming the PC survives this, after his turn ends it tail slaps him for one action, then knocks him prone with a wing buffet for 2 more legendary actions, possibly tail slaps him again (each legendary action following on from a downed PCs stabilisation check) and then full attacks (or breathes) on its turn... all before that PC can act again.

[Safety Sword]

Stuff

I'm glad someone said it.

Dragons are pretty awesome when played at their potential.

[Dalebert]

I suppose you could have all spammed protection from elements (fire) if you had advance warning or initiative (which grants you all resistance) and the Tiefling gets it out of the box, but you're not all passing DC 21 Dex saves as wizards (unless you all roll natural 20's pretty much). Even with resistance, the DC 16+ Con saves to keep any concentration spells running (like protection from elements) is going to suck.

Maybe Absord Elements? Most of my characters who can, always have it prepared, particularly my BS since casters tend to go after him when they realize their melees can't hit him. It's a life-saver.

Just remembered an epic moment with my BS in early levels. He was blurred and ignoring melee while closing with the spellcaster who was hanging back. Spellcaster kept spamming Shatter. I kept spamming Absorb Elements. I think I soaked three of them before falling to zero at his feet. So disappointing! He closed with the rest of my party at that point. I rolled a nat20 on a death save and got back up with one hit point. Immediately got up and finished him off with an arrow to the back of the head. It felt downright cinematic!

[DireSickFish]

I think his DM is doing a lot of homebrewing or using monster unoptimally to use the monsters he wants to use instead of trying to shoehorn something else in because what he wants to use doesn't fit the CR. There's noting wrong with that and it sounds like his group is having fun taking down these challenges. But it's not a great test on how the Bladesinger hold up in melee.

[Gtdead]

I understand how you can survive against the Dragon in melee through BS and Blur. But it's evident that the DM doesn't play the monsters to their full potential.

For once, Frightful Presence should completely cripple your party. Offensive disadvantage is a bitch and the Dragon can take two steps backwards waiting for his breath to recharge while you can't get closer to him, and your attack rolls have 20-25% chance to hit.

Surviving one Breath Attack is doable. Surviving 2 is downright impossible and I doubt that you had enough spellslots to spam lightning bolts and shatters like there is no tommorow, which would be pretty much the only way to kill so fast.

The fork's damage is 2d8+Str. I don't really see the point of using it. I'm assuming that it was a homebrewed version, and didn't require attunment. But in any case, if the encounter played as it should, it would be inconsequencial since the fear condition would prevent you from moving in range to use it. You could try to throw it or a friend adjascent to you would have to forcefully shove you with an athletics check.

I'm not trying to diminish your accomplishments in game, but it's a known fact that most white room melee simulations favor the player character. No one is surprised that the monsters can't hit your Blur+BS+Shield Wizard. The point is what happens when the Monsters have tactics and synergies.

My Paladin 2/UDL Lock 1/Drac Sorcerer x build without any magic items at all, has more than 50% chance to solo the Tarrasque in melee if it doesn't swallow me. But the simple fact is that he will swallow me and I can't do much about it other than fly away.

[Malifice]

I understand how you can survive against the Dragon in melee through BS and Blur.

I dont.

Assuming stats of Str 8, Con 13, Int 16, Dex 18, Wis 12, Cha 8 (this includes Elf and +2 Dex at 4th) mage armor cast, and bladesong active:

AC 20 (25 with shield). Hit Points 27

Round 1: Legendary action (wing) - no attack roll needed, DC 22 Dex or be knocked down and take 15 damage, Legendary action (tail), dragons turn (claw, claw, bite, frightful presence) your turn. All attacks at +14 - with blur cancelled by the disadvantage from being knocked over with the wing attack (unless the Bladesinger is making DC 22 Dex saves with any regularity).

Even with shield, blur, bladesong and mage armor the dragon needs an 11+ to hit. It gets 4 attacks, meaning at least two attacks should hit (plus the wing). Average damage:

Bite. 26
Claw. 15
Tail. 17
Wing 15

The Bladesinger dies horribly (but bravely) on round 1, probably killed by the wing + tail legendary action (leaving the dragon free to toast the PCs on its actual turn).

[treecko]

malifice stuff


I'm almost sure at this point that the DM is adjusting the stats of pretty much every monster the party faces, which makes this hard to compare to. I mean, an adult dragon can kill a party of 5th level wizards will just breath alone, no AC will save you from that.

I found Bellberith's report informative. Personally I think bladesinger is quite strong although I'll admit I've never played with one. My reason is it gains the wizard an absurd amount of survivability that no other wizard can reproduce for no drawback. Absorb elements seems essential, as save spells are the bane of high AC but low HP fellows like the bladesinger, but those spells would chew through a regular wizard just as much as a bladesinger. To whoever was asking why absorb elements and bladesinger can't be used together, the reason is AL play allows only one non-PHB book. However, it is still RAW legal.

[Gignere]

I'm almost sure at this point that the DM is adjusting the stats of pretty much every monster the party faces, which makes this hard to compare to. I mean, an adult dragon can kill a party of 5th level wizards will just breath alone, no AC will save you from that.

I found Bellberith's report informative. Personally I think bladesinger is quite strong although I'll admit I've never played with one. My reason is it gains the wizard an absurd amount of survivability that no other wizard can reproduce for no drawback. Absorb elements seems essential, as save spells are the bane of high AC but low HP fellows like the bladesinger, but those spells would chew through a regular wizard just as much as a bladesinger. To whoever was asking why absorb elements and bladesinger can't be used together, the reason is AL play allows only one non-PHB book. However, it is still RAW legal.

I think it depends on the DM, I had a favored soul sorcerer with a staff of defense, with +1 breastplate, gauntlets of ogre power and a shield in my game so basically permanently blade singing and he was the first character to kick the bucket. I just sent a zombie beholder against the party, random disintegration ray, randomly rolled who he targetted and a failed save means bye bye FS sorcerer, any other character would have probably survived but d6 hit dice is rough.

[treecko]

I think it depends on the DM, I had a favored soul sorcerer with a staff of defense, with +1 breastplate, gauntlets of ogre power and a shield in my game so basically permanently blade singing and he was the first character to kick the bucket. I just sent a zombie beholder against the party, random disintegration ray, randomly rolled who he targetted and a failed save means bye bye FS sorcerer, any other character would have probably survived but d6 hit dice is rough.


save spells are the bane of high AC but low HP fellows like the bladesinger, but those spells would chew through a regular wizard just as much as a bladesinger.

Basically what I said. Their low HP means they are far more vulnerable to save abilities, even though their armor class is high. Most monsters, thankfully for the bladesinger, have normal attacks rather than effects like disintegration ray. However, a DM that chose to could easily put in a higher percentage of monsters with such abilities and make the bladesinger weaker. My argument is that the bladesinger is stronger than a normal wizard because a normal wizard would be just as screwed as the bladesinger against that disintegration ray, but a bladesinger can survive much better against melee attacks.

Where a bladesinger falls behind is on saves. Not just for damage, but the MADness of the 'singer causes the stats it doesn't focus on to fall behind. This makes them weak to mind effects in wisdom saves, and prone effects in strength saves. They can also be banished more easily, but that's what counterspell is for. As malifice mentioned, prone effects are a great way to stop their blur, or just give advantage to get past their armor. Save damage that isn't absorb element-able is really good, like the disintegration ray you mentioned.

Your point about the DM effecting the bladesingers power is legit, as the 'singer is very strong against certain enemy types but weak against others, however overall most monsters are of a type the bladesinger is good against. This changes at high levels, I guess, but they're still a full wizard.

I still stand behind my point that they're better than other wizards.

[Malifice]

I found Bellberith's report informative. Personally I think bladesinger is quite strong although I'll admit I've never played with one. My reason is it gains the wizard an absurd amount of survivability that no other wizard can reproduce for no drawback.

The only survivability it grants is a solid AC (until high levels when you can blow spell slots to absorb damage as a reaction - which competes with your shield spells). Effectively a +3-5 to AC. And there is a drawback; you lose (for example) the Diviners ability to 2-3 times a day have an oppenent autofail a save, or any of the other nifty abilities the other wizard archetypes grant.

Underneath that solid AC is a wizards hit points, and bad Con, Dex and Str saves. One natural 20, and you drop. Its a one trick pony.

Its melee damage is weak (even with GFB/ BB) meaning its not even an effective glass cannon. The only way to mitigate this is via a 2 level dip into paladin for smite (which requires a Str and Cha - two traditional dump stats - of 13+). In a standard 6-8 encounter adventuring day, youre going to struggle to have the slots to spam shield, smites and absorb elements, plus use mage armor and blur and mirror image, and still have the slots left over to do your job as the party wizard and actually blow stuff up, or drop enemies with SoS effects.

Youre running around with a good AC spamming melee cantrips for piddling damage, and wasting your spell slots to avoid getting creamed, with the first attack that hits you, dropping you.

Its best use is as a 2 level dip for an Elven Eldritch knight.

If I was worried about AC, I would simply take my first level in Fighter (and the next 19 in Diviner) and rock around in plate and a shield and the defense F/S for AC 21 (26 with shield). As a bonus I also get Con save proficiency, and I'm one level away from action surge (fireball + fireball + diviner autofail saves or a million other effective combos). A level in cleric also works (also adds bless and cure wounds to your arsenal). Or simply play a dwarf.


Absorb elements seems essential, as save spells are the bane of high AC but low HP fellows like the bladesinger, but those spells would chew through a regular wizard just as much as a bladesinger.

But the regular wizard is at the back of the party, not in melee spamming cantrips and needing to rely on shield, blur and mirror image to avoid getting hit. He also isnt using his one reaction to save himself from melee attacks via shield. He's the evoker, dropping a fireball onto the encounter and ignoring his companions in the blast radius, or the diviner locking down the BBEG with an autofail SoS spell.

[treecko]

The only survivability it grants is a solid AC (until high levels when you can blow spell slots to absorb damage as a reaction - which competes with your shield spells). Effectively a +3-5 to AC. And there is a drawback; you lose (for example) the Diviners ability to 2-3 times a day have an oppenent autofail a save, or any of the other nifty abilities the other wizard archetypes grant.

Underneath that solid AC is a wizards hit points, and bad Con, Dex and Str saves. One natural 20, and you drop. Its a one trick pony.

Its melee damage is weak (even with GFB/ BB) meaning its not even an effective glass cannon. The only way to mitigate this is via a 2 level dip into paladin for smite (which requires a Str and Cha - two traditional dump stats - of 13+). In a standard 6-8 encounter adventuring day, youre going to struggle to have the slots to spam shield, smites and absorb elements, plus use mage armor and blur and mirror image, and still have the slots left over to do your job as the party wizard and actually blow stuff up, or drop enemies with SoS effects.

Its best use is as a 2 level dip for an Elven Eldritch knight.

If I was worried about AC, I would simply take my first level in Fighter (and the next 19 in Diviner) and rock around in fullplate and a shield and the defense F/S for AC 21 (26 with shield). As a bonus I also get Con save proficiency.



But the regular wizard is at the back of the party, not in melee spamming cantrips and needing to rely on shield, blur and mirror image to avoid getting hit. He also isnt using his one reaction to save himself from melee attacks via shield. He's the evoker, dropping a fireball onto the encounter and ignoring his companions in the blast radius, or the diviner locking down the BBEG with an autofail SoS spell.


I'd argue that a solid AC is one of the best defenses in the game, right after bearbarian rage. While you have low hit points and bad saves so does every other wizard. You don't have to be in melee combat to bladesing, it gives other strong advantages too. Extra movement to kite, a decent plus to concentration, the extra to escape a lot of movement hindering effects (adv. on acrobatics) is just gravy. This makes them possibly the best buffing wizard, as well as tankier than any other wizard if you decide to play them backline. I don't think other archytypes can compete with that. The diviner is probably a second best, but they only get their ability 2 times a day, for all the 6-8 encounters. 2 bladesongs per short rest means it's up almost every fight, which gives more consistent power. While auto fails are really nice, an unconscious wizard is a useless wizard.

Blur will take away almost any chance of them hitting you, much less critting. This could be considered a waste of spell slots, but plenty of wizards take it anyway, Treatmonk in his wizard guide rates it the second hightest tier, and it scales especially well with bladesinger because high AC makes disadvantage better and concntration bonuses means it's probably not dropping. Their cantrip damage is less good than a fighter, but better than a wizard spamming fire bolt or frost ray, which the divination wizard or evocation wizard will be using as their default attack.

Fighter 1 is a good dip for any wizard.

I'd argue that the bladesinger makes a better backliner than the other wizard above because of more consistently up power. In addition, having played wizards in the past, I have been knocked out so many times and been forced to use countless spell slots on shield regardless of my positioning. Shield is one of the wizards best spells, for any focus. While the evoker has her high points, when she's casting AoE, that's just damage. Divination has to rely on the luck of the portent dice and those are heavily limited. Enemies will get to the backline if they're at all smart or have any form of range, bladesinger has the best way of stopping themselves from being destroyed. They are also the best at buffs overall, a niche that other wizard can't fill as well.

[Malifice]

I'd argue that a solid AC is one of the best defenses in the game, right after bearbarian rage.

I disagree. And in any event, I can grab an equal or higher AC in many other ways that dont require me to sacrifice my (evoker/ abjurerer/ conjurerer/ diviner) Wizard stuff, or blow spells like candy in melee.


While you have low hit points and bad saves so does every other wizard.

And every other wizard is going to be at the back of the party with the fighters/ barbarians/ rogues/ paladins and even clerics in between him and the enemy.


You don't have to be in melee combat to bladesing, it gives other strong advantages too. Extra movement to kite, a decent plus to concentration, the extra to escape a lot of movement hindering effects (adv. on acrobatics) is just gravy. This makes them possibly the best buffing wizard, as well as tankier than any other wizard if you decide to play them backline.

If buffing is what you want, play a sorcerer, If tanking is what you want play an abjurerer (or a barbarian or moon druid).


Blur will take away almost any chance of them hitting you, much less critting.

Blur isnt a bladesinger only spell. A fighter 1/ Wizard X can do the same thing (with a higher AC, and proficiency in con saves off the bat 24/7). Also, blur lasts a minute and uses your concentration slot.


This could be considered a waste of spell slots,

Even at 5th level, spamming mage armor, mirror image, blur and 2 x shield spells in an encounter, and thats 2 x 2nds, and 3 x 1sts youve expended. You've blown through half your load in a single encounter.


Their cantrip damage is less good than a fighter, but better than a wizard spamming fire bolt or frost ray, which the divination wizard or evocation wizard will be using as their default attack.

If you really want your wizard running around in melee with 20-30 HP at 5th level, to deal a 12 (2d8+3) damage cantrip (with 1d8+3 damage splash) instead of sitting back out of harms way, and spamming a 2d10+3 firebolt, or using those 1st and 2nd level slots on attack spells instead of shield/ blur/ mirror image, go for it.

Compare it to what a 5th level martial PC packing a greatsword and GWM is dishing out at this level (30+ per round). Heck even your Rogue is dealing 21 (5d6+4) damage, and using his reaction to halve incoming damage, and his bonus action to run away before getting hit.


I'd argue that the bladesinger makes a better backliner than the other wizard above because of more consistently up power.

It doesnt get any offensive power. It gets (effectively) a high AC, slightly better manouverability and a decent con save. It has to chew through its offensive power (spell slots) to maintain its one trick (high AC, hard to hit).


In addition, having played wizards in the past, I have been knocked out so many times and been forced to use countless spell slots on shield regardless of my positioning. Shield is one of the wizards best spells, for any focus. While the evoker has her high points, when she's casting AoE, that's just damage.

Fireball is a game changer. God wizards should be at the back playing God and not up the front trying to emulate a fighter, poorly.

I do have time for a 2 level dip on a EK Fighter though.


Divination has to rely on the luck of the portent dice and those are heavily limited. Enemies will get to the backline if they're at all smart or have any form of range, bladesinger has the best way of stopping themselves from being destroyed.

The Evoker has a great way to stop being destroyed in melee. He drops a fireball at his feet.

Give me two wizards, both 5th level. A bladesinger vs an evoker. The bladesinger better find a way to kill the evoker by round two, because thats how long it'll take for the bladesinger to die.

Ive seen bladesingers played, and theyre a one trick pony. They're hard to hit, but go down like tissue papaer when it happens. They burn a lot of resources to avoid this happening (shield, blur, mirror image) just to deliver low damage at will cantrips.

As you point out, the best way to play them is to play like a wizard (avoid melee) and just use the boost to AC to stay alive. I see to many people try to play them as fighters, and it doesnt work.

[Longcat]

Hmm, my experience with the Bladesinger has been rather mediocre.

Been playing one from Lvl 3 (Fighter1/Bladesinger2) to Lvl 9 (Fighter1/Bladesinger8) now, sticking to RAW (High Elf) with Dueling fighting style. Starting stats are Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8. I used a Rapier until I acquired a Scimitar of Speed.

Your damage is way behind anyone with Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter unless you go for a hand crossbow build yourself, and while the AC is nice, your generally mediocre saves and below average HP means you're toast vs anyone not relying on attack rolls. Counterspell can alleviate this to some degree, but not against multiple casters. We had a fight against 4 Helmed Horrors and 2 Flameskulls at Level 6, and the latter two both opened with fireballs.

Meanwhile, our Vengeance Paladin got an animated shield and +1 Fullplate, so he has the same AC as the Bladesinger during Bladesong with Mage Armor active. He has vastly higher DPR and Nova potential (we are allowing GWF to re-roll divine smite), better HP and vastly better saving throws.

Overall, I feel like Bladesingers are not viable melee damage dealers if Great Weapon Master is on the table, unless the Bladesinger starts abusing the **** out of AoE, Summon Elemental and Animate Object. At which point the character is no longer melee, really. If it was strictly about optimization, the best way to play a Bladesinger is to play them as a backline caster with AC boost. Which is strong, but not really what I signed up for.

I'm actually considering ditching the Bladesinger and playing a martial character that can take advantage of Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter, as they seem to be the new baseline of viability.

[Malifice]

Hmm, my experience with the Bladesinger has been rather mediocre.

Been playing one from Lvl 3 (Fighter1/Bladesinger2) to Lvl 9 (Fighter1/Bladesinger8) now, sticking to RAW (High Elf) with Dueling fighting style. Starting stats are Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8. I used a Rapier until I acquired a Scimitar of Speed.

Your damage is way behind anyone with Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter unless you go for a hand crossbow build yourself, and while the AC is nice, your generally mediocre saves and below average HP means you're toast vs anyone not relying on attack rolls. Counterspell can alleviate this to some degree, but not against multiple casters. We had a fight against 4 Helmed Horrors and 2 Flameskulls at Level 6, and the latter two both opened with fireballs.

Meanwhile, our Vengeance Paladin got an animated shield and +1 Fullplate, so he has the same AC as the Bladesinger during Bladesong with Mage Armor active. He has vastly higher DPR and Nova potential (we are allowing GWF to re-roll divine smite), better HP and vastly better saving throws.

Overall, I feel like Bladesingers are not viable melee damage dealers if Great Weapon Master is on the table, unless the Bladesinger starts abusing the **** out of AoE, Summon Elemental and Animate Object. At which point the character is no longer melee, really. If it was strictly about optimization, the best way to play a Bladesinger is to play them as a backline caster with AC boost. Which is strong, but not really what I signed up for.

I'm actually considering ditching the Bladesinger and playing a martial character that can take advantage of Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter, as they seem to be the new baseline of viability.

I was gonna say, if your Cha and Str werent so crap, dip Paladin yourself (for divine smite).

Your other option is to take Fighter through to 3rd for BM dice and action surge.

If I was going to toy with a Bladesinger, I'd go a Half Elf (S 13, D 16, C 10, I 14, W 10, Ch 14) and dip 2 levels of Paladin.

Maybe your DM will allow a retcon?

[Longcat]

I was gonna say, if your Cha and Str werent so crap, dip Paladin yourself (for divine smite).

Your other option is to take Fighter through to 3rd for BM dice and action surge.

If I was going to toy with a Bladesinger, I'd go a Half Elf (S 13, D 16, C 10, I 14, W 10, Ch 14) and dip 2 levels of Paladin.

Maybe your DM will allow a retcon?

I've been abroad for the last two months, missing the last ~6 sessions or so, with my character being physically away from the group. As such, the current time is ideal for a retcon or a character swap.

The Paladin multiclass looks interesting, but Con 10 looks super fragile.

[Malifice]

I've been abroad for the last two months, missing the last ~6 sessions or so, with my character being physically away from the group. As such, the current time is ideal for a retcon or a character swap.

The Paladin multiclass looks interesting, but Con 10 looks super fragile.

It is. Perhaps try - Half Elf Fighter 1/ Paladin 2/ Bladesinger 6 (S 13, D 15(16), C 10, I 13(14), W 10, Ch 12(14)) with the warcaster feat. Defence fighting style from Fighter means your AC stays the same as it is at present (you keep duelling from Paladin), and you've got 4th level slots still.

HP are a massive problem. You'll have 46 HP (currently you should have 60). You'll also have Fighter second wind, Lay on Hands and cure light wounds as a back up resource. I'd be tempted to use one of those 4th level slots on false life (for an extra 1d4+19 HP), or probably better yet, to combo vampiric touch + [bonus action] 2 attacks + smites if needed from the scimitar.

With a 3rd level slot, your vampiric touches deal 3d6 necrotic (4d6 with a 4th level slot) and give you 1/2 the damage in Temp HP. You'll have enough to spam 1/ encounter on a 6 encounter day. Slap them with the touch, and then belt them twice with the scimitar (blowing a smite or two if needed).

Another option is to ditch Fighter 1 for Fiend Warlock 1 (your cha supports it now) for a single level dip for Armor of Agathys and Hellish rebuke. Spam Armor of Agathys with a 4th level slot and get 20 temp HP (and rebound damage) and collect 3 temp HP on each kill you make (it helps). A few hellish rebukes wil make your DM stop attacking you.

You'll also the [attack] + [scimitar] option for 4 x smite nova.

If you go this way, I'd take 1 more of fighter for next level (for action surge = 6 attack + smite nova), then off into Bladesinger to 10th (when you can mitigate damage with the bladesinger ability) and then probably keep going with bladesinger for 9th level spells.

Increase Int at BS 8, 12, 16 (it adds to AC, Con saves, spell DCs). Get yourself a girdle of giant strength for the melee side, and some +X light armor for the defensive side. A Periapt of health [Con 19] works wonders too.

[Longcat]

It is. Perhaps try - Half Elf Fighter 1/ Paladin 2/ Bladesinger 6 (S 13, D 15(16), C 10, I 13(14), W 10, Ch 12(14)) with the warcaster feat. Defence fighting style from Fighter means your AC stays the same as it is at present (you keep duelling from Paladin), and you've got 4th level slots still.

HP are a massive problem. You'll have 46 HP (currently you should have 60). You'll also have Fighter second wind, Lay on Hands and cure light wounds as a back up resource. I'd be tempted to use one of those 4th level slots on false life (for an extra 1d4+19 HP), or probably better yet, to combo vampiric touch + [bonus action] 2 attacks + smites if needed from the scimitar.

With a 3rd level slot, your vampiric touches deal 3d6 necrotic (4d6 with a 4th level slot) and give you 1/2 the damage in Temp HP. You'll have enough to spam 1/ encounter on a 6 encounter day. Slap them with the touch, and then belt them twice with the scimitar (blowing a smite or two if needed).

Another option is to ditch Fighter 1 for Fiend Warlock 1 (your cha supports it now) for a single level dip for Armor of Agathys and Hellish rebuke. Spam Armor of Agathys with a 4th level slot and get 20 temp HP (and rebound damage) and collect 3 temp HP on each kill you make (it helps). A few hellish rebukes wil make your DM stop attacking you.

You'll also the [attack] + [scimitar] option for 4 x smite nova.

If you go this way, I'd take 1 more of fighter for next level (for action surge = 6 attack + smite nova), then off into Bladesinger to 10th (when you can mitigate damage with the bladesinger ability) and then probably keep going with bladesinger for 9th level spells.

Increase Int at BS 8, 12, 16 (it adds to AC, Con saves, spell DCs). Get yourself a girdle of giant strength for the melee side, and some +X light armor for the defensive side. A Periapt of health [Con 19] works wonders too.

Unfortunately, no "set stat to X" items for our game. Even if they did drop, chances are they'd go to our Paladin or Barbarian first. Our party composition, besides me, is:
-Vuman Vengeance Paladin
-Dwarf Bear Totem Barbarian
-Vuman Life Cleric
-Vuman Dragon Sorcerer

With the Sorcerer throwing twinned Haste/Greater Invisibility on the Barbarian and Paladin, it has become incredibly tough to compete with them in terms of damage. The theoretically better AC doesn't matter as much as almost half of the opponents have non-AC attacks. I just feel like given our party composition and optimization level, the Bladesinger is not cutting it.

I'm thinking of re-rolling to a ranged character, either Warlock2/Lore Bard X, Fighter1/Bard X or Ranger5/Rogue X.

[treecko]

I disagree. And in any event, I can grab an equal or higher AC in many other ways that dont require me to sacrifice my (evoker/ abjurerer/ conjurerer/ diviner) Wizard stuff, or blow spells like candy in melee.

I think the bladesinger can be thought as the equivalent of starting fighter, but giving up a subclass instead of a level. Both get increased armor class and bonuses to concentration, and a few other benefits. You may not get the other subclass goodies but you won't be behind in wizard levels. If you don't think it's worth it, thats fine but I think the tradeoff is good.

And every other wizard is going to be at the back of the party with the fighters/ barbarians/ rogues/ paladins and even clerics in between him and the enemy.

and so is the bladesinger, if you're playing her right. I never said the singer is good in melee combat, just that they can do it better than other wizards, which they would only want to do if they were out of/unwilling to use spell slots and needed more damage than a ranged cantrip.

If buffing is what you want, play a sorcerer, If tanking is what you want play an abjurerer (or a barbarian or moon druid).

Concentration is a very important mechanic for a wizard. A subclass that makes it very easy to keep concentration seems pretty good by me. Buffing is one example, but losong concentration is very lame and singers are the only class that are are to prevent that in two ways.

Blur isnt a bladesinger only spell. A fighter 1/ Wizard X can do the same thing (with a higher AC, and proficiency in con saves off the bat 24/7). Also, blur lasts a minute and uses your concentration slot.

See my first response

Even at 5th level, spamming mage armor, mirror image, blur and 2 x shield spells in an encounter, and thats 2 x 2nds, and 3 x 1sts youve expended. You've blown through half your load in a single encounter.

If you're playing it wrong and want to go melee like a fighter. The bladesinger will never be better than a fighter/barb/paladin, and the difference only increases with stuff like GWM. If it was really needed they could tank for a while against an attack roll based enemy, but yes that will burn spell slots that could be better spent.

If you really want your wizard running around in melee with 20-30 HP at 5th level, to deal a 12 (2d8+3) damage cantrip (with 1d8+3 damage splash) instead of sitting back out of harms way, and spamming a 2d10+3 firebolt, or using those 1st and 2nd level slots on attack spells instead of shield/ blur/ mirror image, go for it.

GFB is really a last ditch option. Leaving the back line is always dangerous, but in most stuff I've DMed or played in, attacks to the backline are common enough that even wizards need to have solid defenses or they get picked off.

Compare it to what a 5th level martial PC packing a greatsword and GWM is dishing out at this level (30+ per round). Heck even your Rogue is dealing 21 (5d6+4) damage, and using his reaction to halve incoming damage, and his bonus action to run away before getting hit.

Oh certainly. But they can't cast fireball/fear/fly. Granted other wizards can as well but you;re not playing the singer for damage, it's for defenses.

It doesnt get any offensive power. It gets (effectively) a high AC, slightly better manouverability and a decent con save. It has to chew through its offensive power (spell slots) to maintain its one trick (high AC, hard to hit).

If you're on the backline, bladesinging should get you AC that other wizards need to burn shield to get. If com compare a bladesinger to another wizard, once an actually smart enemy with ranged attacked and flanks get behind, the singer will be saving spell slots because they need less defense buffs to stay alive. A dead wizard is a useless wizard.

Fireball is a game changer. God wizards should be at the back playing God and not up the front trying to emulate a fighter, poorly.

Fireball and thunderwave are why the evoker is good :biggrin: When I first read the evoker, I though "just aim." After playing many casters, I now think "damn this is good".

I do have time for a 2 level dip on a EK Fighter though.

Same. It's a fun build.

The Evoker has a great way to stop being destroyed in melee. He drops a fireball at his feet.

Misty step and thunderwave are great ways to avoid this. And if an evoker is surrounded, how is he not already dead? Granted, this is a good trick that only the evoker can pull off.

Give me two wizards, both 5th level. A bladesinger vs an evoker. The bladesinger better find a way to kill the evoker by round two, because thats how long it'll take for the bladesinger to die.

Uh, same way the evoker will try to kill her: with wizard spells. And I think we both know pvp is not a good measure of how a class will work out in game. Sculpt spell is also useless in a 1v1 so it's not the like evoker has any advantage. Do you assume the evoker is going to be casting fireball while the singer uses GFB?

Ive seen bladesingers played, and theyre a one trick pony. They're hard to hit, but go down like tissue papaer when it happens. They burn a lot of resources to avoid this happening (shield, blur, mirror image) just to deliver low damage at will cantrips.

You've seen singers played wrong

As you point out, the best way to play them is to play like a wizard (avoid melee) and just use the boost to AC to stay alive. I see to many people try to play them as fighters, and it doesnt work.

I think we're in agreement here. I find them a good way to boost AC, concentration, and mobility, which is almost always up unlike other wizards like the diviner. If you think using a level of fighter is better, go for it.


Honestly the bladesinger is so deceptive. A wizard that is viable in melee would be broken beyond belief. Can you imagine a class with fighter-like DRP and full spellcasting? (cough warlock)

Wizards in your campaign must have it so much easier than the ones I play/DM. In curse of strahd, I lost track of the amount of times my character has gone unconscious because it was too high. That's with shield and staying the the back. (conjurer btw). In games I run, wizards constanly cast spells like blink to stay alive because my monsters often ways of attacking them, and will target them if the scrawny guy in robes seems like a better target than the fighter wrapped up in more metal than a sherman tank.

[Gignere]

Honestly the bladesinger is so deceptive. A wizard that is viable in melee would be broken beyond belief. Can you imagine a class with fighter-like DRP and full spellcasting? (cough warlock)

Wizards in your campaign must have it so much easier than the ones I play/DM. In curse of strahd, I lost track of the amount of times my character has gone unconscious because it was too high. That's with shield and staying the the back. (conjurer btw). In games I run, wizards constanly cast spells like blink to stay alive because my monsters often ways of attacking them, and will target them if the scrawny guy in robes seems like a better target than the fighter wrapped up in more metal than a sherman tank.

The biggest problem with the bladesinger and the favored soul is that they start believing themselves as a frontline melee, because so many encounters their high ACs save them but the encounters that their high AC doesn't do jack they don't realize it and continue tanking. I have played a diviner and I have went 5 games in a row without even getting attacked once because my actions are always cast get out of LoS asap or other crazy positioning to save my bacon. If I played a blade singer in the same way this means the extra ac is useless, and I don't even have a casting benefit to make up for it.

[Rand84]

In currently playing a high elf Fighter 1/ Bladesinger 4 in Curse of Strahd and he's working just fine in melee I took the Duelling fighting style for the static bonus to my melee cantrips I picked up the mobile feat at wizard 4 for 50ft movement whilst Bladesinging and a free disengage. I play like a skirmisher using my movement to flit in and out of combat and striking with Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade. My go-to concentration spell is Blur with that Mage Armour and Bladrsong enemies are trying to hit me at AC 20 with disadvantage which can be boosted to 25 with shield when needed (which is pretty rarely) my other combat spells consist of close range AoE's like thunderwave and burning hands the only ranged spell/cantrip I have is fire-bolt. My contingency plan for being surrounded is Sword Burst followed my a misty step to get the hell outta dodge. And I can confidently say Bladesingers can stand up to melee combat just fine the 1 level dip at level 1 is helpful but I don't feel it's mandatory by any stretch of the imagination proficiency in CON saves and the bonus from Bladesinging is immense and 6 levels in I am yet to lose concentration in combat. Next level gets me Haste that will grant me +2 AC another attack so I can BB and then attack and 100ft movement to move out of range forcing enemies to dash to close on me wasting their action!

Over all I'm more than happy with Bladesingers in melee

[Night Eternal]

Draco knight

thanks for this tread its interesting to hear how a blade singer play. Whether rules are adjusted or not.

[treecko]

In currently playing a high elf Fighter 1/ Bladesinger 4 in Curse of Strahd and he's working just fine in melee I took the Duelling fighting style for the static bonus to my melee cantrips I picked up the mobile feat at wizard 4 for 50ft movement whilst Bladesinging and a free disengage. I play like a skirmisher using my movement to flit in and out of combat and striking with Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade. My go-to concentration spell is Blur with that Mage Armour and Bladrsong enemies are trying to hit me at AC 20 with disadvantage which can be boosted to 25 with shield when needed (which is pretty rarely) my other combat spells consist of close range AoE's like thunderwave and burning hands the only ranged spell/cantrip I have is fire-bolt. My contingency plan for being surrounded is Sword Burst followed my a misty step to get the hell outta dodge. And I can confidently say Bladesingers can stand up to melee combat just fine the 1 level dip at level 1 is helpful but I don't feel it's mandatory by any stretch of the imagination proficiency in CON saves and the bonus from Bladesinging is immense and 6 levels in I am yet to lose concentration in combat. Next level gets me Haste that will grant me +2 AC another attack so I can BB and then attack and 100ft movement to move out of range forcing enemies to dash to close on me wasting their action!

Over all I'm more than happy with Bladesingers in melee

Thanks for sharing your experience. What else you have in the party? You're certainly slippery and hard to hit, although I'm more interested in how much damage you can put out. I'm also curious about how many enemies you've faced with save attacks and AoE spells, where the singers low health and poor wisdom save start to be felt.

[Rand84]

Thanks for sharing your experience. What else you have in the party? You're certainly slippery and hard to hit, although I'm more interested in how much damage you can put out. I'm also curious about how many enemies you've faced with save attacks and AoE spells, where the singers low health and poor wisdom save start to be felt.

Our party consists of a War Cleric, a Land Druid, an Oathbreaker Paladin, an Arcane Trickester, a Warlock (I think she's a Tomblock) Great old one, and an Evocation Wizard. The Cleric and the Paladin tend to hold the line with the Casters behind and me and the rogue raiding the flanks. Due to the low magic of the setting the the only real magic wielding enemies we have come up against are Druids and I did get hit with a few AoE restraint spells (I can't remember the name of the spell off the top of my head but they targeted Stength saves) but it was simply a case of misty stepping out of the effected area. My Damge is by no means ground breaking I'm attacking with advantage due to my owl familiar using booming blade I do 2d8+3(DEX mod)+2(Duelling) with an additional 2d8 of the target moves which is actually pretty often thanks to being able to kite due to the mobile feat and the party warlock casting dissionate whispers next level this will go up by a further 1d8+3(DEX mod)+2(Duelling) from my extra Haste attack

[kcio83]

I'm playing a Eladrin Bladesinger at level 8. The party is a Paladin OoV, Sorlock and a Bard. Until now we're doing a good job. I like to use mirror image (no concentration) and Flaming Sphere (concentration) and attack with BB. Since I've WarCaster, it's a no win for the enemy. Stay and take Flaming Sphere (leve 3) damage, or BB if move and AoO (also BB). So, the Bladesinger it's not so far from the Sorlock or even the Paladin. Some times it's even better than both (although the Paladin is the great Cannon of the party).
The damage it's usually BB (2d8+Dex) + Flaming Sphere (bonus action: 3d6) + Flaming Sphere (3d6) or BB (2d8) + AoO (2d8+Dex + 2d8). When the Sorlock cast Haste in the Paladin, he does easily more damage then I, otherwise, it's almost the same.

[Rand84]

I'm playing a Eladrin Bladesinger at level 8. The party is a Paladin OoV, Sorlock and a Bard. Until now we're doing a good job. I like to use mirror image (no concentration) and Flaming Sphere (concentration) and attack with BB. Since I've WarCaster, it's a no win for the enemy. Stay and take Flaming Sphere (leve 3) damage, or BB if move and AoO (also BB). So, the Bladesinger it's not so far from the Sorlock or even the Paladin. Some times it's even better than both (although the Paladin is the great Cannon of the party).
The damage it's usually BB (2d8+Dex) + Flaming Sphere (bonus action: 3d6) + Flaming Sphere (3d6) or BB (2d8) + AoO (2d8+Dex + 2d8). When the Sorlock cast Haste in the Paladin, he does easily more damage then I, otherwise, it's almost the same.

Do you not find that most of your images from mirror image are destroyed by attacks that wouldn't hit your AC anyway as they don't benefit from the bonus to AC from Mage Armour or Bladesinging??

[Petrocorus]

I had a friend describe himself as an 'Agnostic theist'.

That the inconsistency of that statement wasnt immediately apparent surprised me.
This is not inconsistent.


Wouldn't that be illegal in AL? Absorb Elements is from EE, Bladesinger is from FR. Can't use both together

Why?

[RickAllison]

This is not inconsistent.



Why?

AL rules state that (as of the current season) you can use either SCAG or EEPC, but you cannot use both together. This is to ensure that you don't have three different books to go through for your character so speed is maintained. Or maybe it is to limit any potential power creep until more testing can be done for the rules. Or something like that.