Bladelock vs Blastlock

[Anderlith]

It was hard to optimize the bladelock & with eldrich blast it was hard to outpace the blastlock's effectiveness. Now with SCAG out & new melee cantrips how does it stack up?

[PoeticDwarf]

The bladelock becomes better, but it still is just way better to be a blastlock.

I mean, you can have more damage as bladelock, but you have to be MAD and you have often less to hit.

The cantrips especially works for eldritch knight and for arcane trickster.

[Tanarii]

Str Bladelock (Greatsword pact weapon) is already on par with a blasterlock until level 17. Even after 17 for a PAM build. But you're really going to suffer in the AC department unless you MC for Heavy Armor, and if you do you're delaying your warlock progression. You can make up for that in a variety of ways: at-will Mage Armor, at-will False Life, Armor or Agathys and other defensive spells (some at the cost of concentration/Hex), Dark One's Blessing.

IMO Dex/rapier Bladelock isn't really a melee build. It's just wanting a non-Warcaster OA that's decent. OTOH Elves (or MC for weapon prof) can pull of TWF Dex shortsword, and it's actually on par with Greatsword since it adds another hex damage die.

[Malifice]

The bladelock becomes better, but it still is just way better to be a blastlock.

I mean, you can have more damage as bladelock, but you have to be MAD and you have often less to hit.

Are magic items in your game? If so, then this isnt true.

[Waazraath]

Are magic items in your game? If so, then this isnt true.

What´s funny: most people seem to assume point buy or fixed stats. When you simply roll for ability scores (still the default!) you have some classes that are most viable with a high roll. Was like that in older editions (remember a paladin with rediculous prereqs, including charisma 17), and still is.

[Tanarii]

What´s funny: most people seem to assume point buy or fixed stats. When you simply roll for ability scores (still the default!) you have some classes that are most viable with a high roll. Was like that in older editions (remember a paladin with rediculous prereqs, including charisma 17), and still is.the difference then was that the class you were getting into was more powerful than other classes.

Whereas in 5e, some classes and builds can take advantage of multiple high rolls, whereas others can't as easily.

[Waazraath]

the difference then was that the class you were getting into was more powerful than other classes.

Whereas in 5e, some classes and builds can take advantage of multiple high rolls, whereas others can't as easily.

Dunno... also in 3.5, when you were lucky with your roll's, you could build a monk that stayed competitive until at least mid levels, while with average rolls, this wasn't possible (played one once with 18 str, 16 dex & wis, & 15 con; that pretty much compensated the abysmal chasis for quite some levels)

[Tanarii]

For sure, in fact for a long time I thought 3e Monks were overpowered for exactly that reason. And it's the reason I switched to point buy in my games. Well, that and running AL more often. My point was 5e SAD & MAD classes/builds are mostly balanced, with point buy. Unlike 1e/2e, which had preseason and intentional imbalance. Or 3e which just had imbalance. In 5e MAD classes mostly just can take advantage of higher stats.

I think the Bladelock problem with 5e comes from an incorrect assumption: that by default, bladelocks are supposed to be primary melee attackers, or GISH. Pact of the Blade is supposed to add a decent melee option, not necessarily make it the go to attack with spells/cantrips becoming utility.

Basically, Bladelock, like Valor Bard & Bladesinger, is designed to add melee utility. People instead try to optimize it as a melee primary. So people think it's less effective at its 'thing'.

[Rummy]

I think that bladelock is a great primary melee provided you start with a level of fighter. The SCAG cantrips really take the sting out of mutlticlassing because cantrips come online based on character level. From what I've seen, bladelock is more effective in combat at lower levels. My character is a Variant human who took Heavy Armor Master and Fighter at level one. The DR 3 combos great with all the fiend THP. Also, starting every fight with 8 THP from fiendish vigor really helps. The blastlock is generally inferior to the hunter ranger or archer fighter at low levels. Of course, fireball changes that at level five, but my bladelock gets fireball at character level 6. Then I can action surge two fireballs when I take another level of fighter at character level seven (assuming that it isn't the first fight when I cast my eight hour hex).

[Tanarii]

I think that bladelock is a great primary melee provided you start with a level of fighter. At which point he isn't a Bladelock, but a multiclassed Fighter/Bladelock. That was my point. If you want them to be primary melee, you have to optimize them as such. Usually by multiclassing.

[Rummy]

Right. That's sort of my point. Bladelock is tailor made for mutlticlassing.

[Tanarii]

At the cost of delaying access to his primary offense. Yes you can turn a Bladelock into an effective GISH by multiclassing. Or more accurately, you turn a Fighter into a GISH by multiclassing into a warlock. But without it the Bladelock isn't really one. He's a primary caster with utility melee.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Seems like the Tomelock does the Bladelock's shtick pretty well with the use of Shillelagh and the SCAG cantrips. Since use of the SCAG cantrips specifically does not use an Attack action, Bladelocks cannot benefit from SCAG cantrips and Thirsting Blade jointly, meaning a Tomelock can stay competitive with a Bladelock in damage until Lifedrinker comes online, using only cantrips to do so, at which point the Tomelock simply becomes a Blastlock (if they haven't already), since they're already three iteratives in on Eldritch Blast anyway.

[Corran]

I think that the SCAG cantrips just offer some alternative utility to the bladelock, since I think he will be better off using thirsting blade along with GWM (or whatever feat he chose to supplement his attacks) when he is fighting a single opponent.