Sha'ir/Swordsage Build Help

[Alistaroc]

So I'm looking to make a Sha'ir and Swordsage gish, probably using Jade Phoenix Mage(it looks like a good idea), and the only real restriction is that one of the feats needs to be Leadership. LA buyoff, two flaws, any source, not too much cheese.

The general concept is a warrior-Mage of the desert and his Sphinx companion. Any help is appreciated.

[avr]

With a couple of flaws you're relatively feat-rich; needing cha for casting, physical abilities to fight, and ideally a little wisdom for the applicable swordsage abilities you're hard up for stats. That means you want to do without some str (not dump entirely!) and use shadow blade.

Something like Swordsage 1 / Sha'ir 5 / JPM 10 is the easiest way to do this. Feats might go
1: Shadow Blade
Human: Adaptive Style
Flaw 1: Extra Readied Maneuver
Flaw 2: Improved Initiative?
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Leadership

If you can delay Leadership until level 9 then Shadow Trickster is a good 6th level feat for you; or Practiced Spellcaster. You can't take either with your starting feats unfortunately.

[Alistaroc]

Okay, so I'm looking at Swordsage 1/Sha'ir 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 10, and maybe finishing it off with Abjurant Champion 5/ Swordsage +1, that way I have 16th level casting, CL 20, and IL 15.
Any other ideas on maximizing CL or IL/maneuvers?
I could swap out Swordsage +1 for Sha'ir +1, to get 9th level spells, but I then go down to knowing a single 6th level maneuver, losing an 8th level maneuver and stance. And tbh I'm not sure if it's worth it, as I'm aiming for a gish rather than full caster.

Thoughts?

[torrasque666]

Can't get into JPM before 7th, as it requires 9 ranks in Concentration.

[Alistaroc]

Can't get into JPM before 7th, as it requires 9 ranks in Concentration.
Woops, forgot that part.
Sha'ir 5/Swordsage 2/JPM 10/X 3 then I suppose.
Any ideas for X? I guess Sha'ir +3 might work, but a PrC could be nice too.

[Xerlith]

First of all, why Swordsage? Is there a particular set of maneuvers you're decided on? JPM's best are the Devoted Spirit ones, since most of the Desert Wind is better off replicated and outdone by the spells available. The Swordsage also boasts the worst maneuver recovery, which is even more limiting for a caster, who's better off, well, casting a spell than effectively wasting a turn on doing nothing.

My take on this concept: Battle Dancer 1/Sha'ir4/Crusader1/Spellsword1/JPM4/Abjurant Champion 4/JPM+5

Why? Battle Dancer grants the Charisma to AC, which should dovetail nicely with Sha'ir. Buying Slippers of Battledancing means that as long as you stick to Standard Action maneuvers (or use some kind of Swift action movement), you'll be keying your AC, To-hit and damage off Charisma. Crusader recovery mechanism means you'll never have to spend an action on it. Ever.

The level staggering means you'll be able to grab the highest (IL 15@20th, meaning a 8lvl maneuver) level maneuvers possible. This setup robs you from the true fullcaster experience (Meaning, no 9th at 20th. I don't particularily mind them, but some do prefer to have the infinite cosmic power at their fingertips) though.

With that setup, you can safely put 14 into Strength and leave it at it, as long as you obtain/craft the Slippers ASAP.

Feats I'd take:

Any flaw (Shaky?): Blind-Fight.
Flaw #2: Extend Spell.
Human: Power Attack. Grab it early, you have the feats.
1st: Improved Initiative. Never bad.
3rd: Combat Casting. Required for AbjChamp.
6th: Leadership. Why not grab it early.
9th: Quicken Spell.
12th: Arcane strike. Optional, since it may be redundant with Arcane Wrath. Free action and it stacks, so it may be up your alley. Stack on Pearls of Power to fuel it.
15th: Persistent Spell, probably.
18th: Dunno. Really.

Spell choice, standard Gish issue:

1st level: Shield (AbjChamp!), Mage Armor (Good for the beginning), Fist of Stone. Oh man, Fist of Stone.
2nd level: Wraithstrike, Whirling Blade, Heroics, Luminous Armor (AbjChamp!!), Alter Self, Bull's Strength early on.
3rd level: Greater Magic Weapon. Keen Edge. Vampiric Touch (if you intend to get the Bloodstone weapon enhancement)

All of the Bite of the Were- (Rat, Tiger, Boar, Bear) are awesome. +16 enhancement to strength as just one of the bonuses?

[Alistaroc]

First of all, why Swordsage? Is there a particular set of maneuvers you're decided on? JPM's best are the Devoted Spirit ones, since most of the Desert Wind is better off replicated and outdone by the spells available. The Swordsage also boasts the worst maneuver recovery, which is even more limiting for a caster, who's better off, well, casting a spell than effectively wasting a turn on doing nothing.

My take on this concept: Battle Dancer 1/Sha'ir4/Crusader1/Spellsword1/JPM4/Abjurant Champion 4/JPM+5

Why? Battle Dancer grants the Charisma to AC, which should dovetail nicely with Sha'ir. Buying Slippers of Battledancing means that as long as you stick to Standard Action maneuvers (or use some kind of Swift action movement), you'll be keying your AC, To-hit and damage off Charisma. Crusader recovery mechanism means you'll never have to spend an action on it. Ever.

The level staggering means you'll be able to grab the highest (IL 15@20th, meaning a 8lvl maneuver) level maneuvers possible. This setup robs you from the true fullcaster experience (Meaning, no 9th at 20th. I don't particularily mind them, but some do prefer to have the infinite cosmic power at their fingertips) though.

With that setup, you can safely put 14 into Strength and leave it at it, as long as you obtain/craft the Slippers ASAP.

Feats I'd take:

Any flaw (Shaky?): Blind-Fight.
Human: Power Attack. Grab it early, you have the feats.
1st: Improved Initiative. Never bad.
3rd: Extend Spell. Always useful.
6th: Leadership. Why not grab it early.
9th: Combat Casting. Required for AbjChamp.
12th: Arcane strike. Optional, since it may be redundant with Arcane Wrath. Free action and it stacks, so it may be up your alley. Stack on Pearls of Power to fuel it.
15th: Quicken Spell
18th: Dunno. If your game went on that long, you probably have an idea what you want.
Tbh Desert Wind seemed nice for a pseudo-blasty desert-feeling gish, that was the whole reasoning behind Swordsage.
I know I'd slot Practiced Spellcaster in there somewhere, seeing as how I lose 4 caster levels from Battle Dancer, Crusader, and JPM.

And what are your thoughts on Zhentarim Skymage? It'd be give me the Sphinx companion I want, without Leadership, but it seems quite abusable, and so I'm hesitant to put it in.
Books are not comfortable when applied to the cranium at high velocities.

[Grod_The_Giant]

And what are your thoughts on Zhentarim Skymage? It'd be give me the Sphinx companion I want, without Leadership, but it seems quite abusable, and so I'm hesitant to put it in.
Books are not comfortable when applied to the cranium at high velocities.
I don't see any issue with the PrC-- Leadership is considerably more cheesy, generally speaking. You get a mount, Share Spells, a few mediocre bonus feats, and not much else. Looks nicely balanced for a gish.

[Alistaroc]

I don't see any issue with the PrC-- Leadership is considerably more cheesy, generally speaking. You get a mount, Share Spells, a few mediocre bonus feats, and not much else. Looks nicely balanced for a gish.
That's what I thought

If you bring the skymage to a table, you're asking for a book to the head. Full caster progression, ridiculous mount, ridiculous abilities, yup, that'd get you at least 4 or 5 books to the head at the moment someone sees it.
But apparently not???



I was thinking that maybe rather than the mount being based on HD, it could be based on ECL. That'd slow progression, but allow templates.
Do you think that's a decent trade off? I'm going for a Gynopshinx mount, but with some templates they get really fun.
Fire-Souled Half-Fey Saint Gynosphinx has 31 Charisma and 23 Wisdom. :smallbiggrin:

[Alistaroc]

You may want to swap Improved Initiative for Practiced Spellcaster then. Or Quicken Spell. Your choice. Anyway - I wouldn't go Zhentarim Skymage. You have the feat to spare, and with the Zhentarim you waste a feat for Iron Will (unless you use Otyugh Hole, which has the distinct smell of a dairy product) and most probably Mounted Combat, and the benefits you get from it are, well, worse for the build than what you'd get from the JPM or AbjChamp levels.

IMO really, really not worth it. Not to mention if used as a 1-level dip, the mount's HD never exceed 2+Cha mod. Which is a lot worse than the Leadership's HD-2.
Hmm, well with Zhentarim it's a HD limit, while with Leadership it's an ECL limit.
Tbh my only grief with Zhentarim is that it doesn't provide for any form of advancement or templating.

[Xerlith]

You may want to swap Improved Initiative for Practiced Spellcaster then. Or Quicken Spell. Your choice. Anyway - I wouldn't go Zhentarim Skymage. You have the feat to spare, and with the Zhentarim you waste a feat for Iron Will (unless you use Otyugh Hole, which has the distinct smell of a dairy product) and most probably Mounted Combat, and the benefits you get from it are, well, worse for the build than what you'd get from the JPM or AbjChamp levels.

IMO really, really not worth it. Not to mention if used as a 1-level dip, the mount's HD never exceed 2+Cha mod. Which is a lot worse than the Leadership's HD-2, not counting heavy cheese.

A quick rehash of the class abilities:

Requirements:
2 feats plain lost for entry (3 if not using AbjChamp in a build).
+3 BAB lost overall.
15 skill ranks. 13 if not counting the nonexistent in 3.5 Scry.

Benefits:
Bonus Scrolls - a dead class feature for a Sha'ir. A Wizard would be overjoyed, that's for sure, just from this ability.
Flying Mount - That's half a feat to a feat. Depends on how cheesed up you Charisma is. Leadership/Wild Cohort does the same.
Craft Wand - One feat back. Decent. But not really, because... If you have Leadership, you can have a cohort/follower take this.
Flying Feat - Another feat back. The requirement feats paid off, but the list does nothing to you. Flyby Attack would be awesome - if it was applied to you. To the mount? Pointless.
Spell Focus - Are you a blaster/battlefield controller? No. The feat does next to nothing for you.
Skill Focus - Eh. No. You have spells.
Share Spells - Nah. If it worked for adjacent spaces, you could have fun with it. As is, meh.
Enlarge spell - Are you a blaster/battlefield controller? Same as Spell Focus.

Overall, the class has zero synergy with your build. At best, it evens out. I'd go as far as say it drags you down, because every level taken in Zhentarim Skymage is a level you could take in the AbjChamp (Free quickened spells, +2AC/level, Full BAB, d10HD to say the least) or Jade Phoenix Mage (BAB, class features, free quickened spell 1/encounter, etc etc).

EDIT: How did this... Okay. This post is lower than its reply now. Not going to question this phenomenon.

[Alistaroc]

Stuff
Alright, fair point.
Then that leads me to one final question. How should I attempt to Balance Leadership, to get it more likely to be approved by a DM? Getting rid of followers seems a given, but I'm not sure what else.

[Grod_The_Giant]

That's what I thought

But apparently not???
Yeah, that guy is either seeing something I'm not, or he's basing his evaluation on a seriously low optimization level.


I was thinking that maybe rather than the mount being based on HD, it could be based on ECL.
That's not bad. I personally like using CR for such things, because it avoids the whole "high HD/CR on brute monsters and low HD/CR on caster monsters" issue. It would also deal with template stacking :smallwink:

[thorr-kan]

Alright, fair point.
Then that leads me to one final question. How should I attempt to Balance Leadership, to get it more likely to be approved by a DM? Getting rid of followers seems a given, but I'm not sure what else.
Tap the Sidekick feat from the d20 Past.

[Alistaroc]

Tap the Sidekick feat from the d20 Past.
I already stated I'd be removing the followers from Leadership for this build. :smalltongue:

But any houserules or anything that people have used to balance this feat?

[Alistaroc]

That's not bad. I personally like using CR for such things, because it avoids the whole "high HD/CR on brute monsters and low HD/CR on caster monsters" issue. It would also deal with template stacking :smallwink:
What about for Leadership? It would get a Gynosphinx 4 levels earlier... and I'm not sure that's such a good idea. Idk though.

[Grod_The_Giant]

What about for Leadership? It would get a Gynosphinx 4 levels earlier
How so? That's actually a rare case where HD=CR. Leadership would get it at level 10 either way.

Any way you look at it, it's definitely a "what's right for your group" sort of thing.

[Alistaroc]

How so? That's actually a rare case where HD=CR. Leadership would get it at level 10 either way.

Any way you look at it, it's definitely a "what's right for your group" sort of thing.
Leadership uses ECL, meaning the ECL 12 Gynosphinx only becomes available at Level 14.