Idle hands

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm making a monk character and since I will be fighting unarmed, I have nothing occupying my hands. Put simply: what are some inexpensive, easy options I could use to make use of my free hands? It feels like a waste to not use them for something when for any other character having a free hand is precious enough to make a glove of storing attractive.

Besides holding the torch/lantern, I figured I could use a reach tripping weapon despite being non-proficient with it, just to make AoO trips (-4 to hit against touch AC? no big deal) from outside most foes' reach so they can't AoO me for lacking the Imp. Trip feat (yet).

But are there any other options I could look into that are on the cheap side? If it requires a magic item or especially a feat, I'm not interested.

[Crake]

gloves with contact poison on them?

[Berenger]

Become your groups walking, talking Robe of Useful Items (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Robe_of_Useful_Items) by juggling all these items around while walking amongst your enemies and killing them with roundhouse kicks.

Or a crossbow.

[Uncle Pine]

Eggshell grenades? Sprayers filled with aboleth mucus?

[Rubik]

Carry a guisarme and make AoO trip attacks. No, you're not proficient, but you're making touch attacks, not regular attacks, so it evens out.

Or get a sandblaster and use it for AoE ranged attacks, no proficiency necessary. (It's in the MMIII, pg 58.)

[Edenbeast]

I'm making a monk character and since I will be fighting unarmed, I have nothing occupying my hands. Put simply: what are some inexpensive, easy options I could use to make use of my free hands? It feels like a waste to not use them for something when for any other character having a free hand is precious enough to make a glove of storing attractive.

Besides holding the torch/lantern, I figured I could use a reach tripping weapon despite being non-proficient with it, just to make AoO trips (-4 to hit against touch AC? no big deal) from outside most foes' reach so they can't AoO me for lacking the Imp. Trip feat (yet).

But are there any other options I could look into that are on the cheap side? If it requires a magic item or especially a feat, I'm not interested.

I'd rather stick with monk weapons. You're allowed to use monk weapons with flurry of blows, and you can attack with either monk weapons or unarmed strike interchangably. That means you can wield two sai's or nunchakus for disarming your opponent, two kama's to trip them, or shuriken for ranged attacks. So you can just make all unarmed strikes, or use your first two attacks to disarm the opponent and the remaining for unarmed strikes.
Not usable with flurry of blows, but good ranged options: handaxes, daggers or a light crossbow.

[Âmesang]

I've seen a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNXKuwhhC1c) of a Russian dance troupe including one doing some sort of somersault/butterfly kicks whilst playing an accordion.

Is there any way to multi class monk with bard?

[Uncle Pine]

I've seen a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNXKuwhhC1c) of a Russian dance troupe including one doing some sort of somersault/butterfly kicks whilst playing an accordion.

Is there any way to multi class monk with bard?

Dragon Compendium has the Battle Dancer base class.

[StreamOfTheSky]

gloves with contact poison on them?

As usual with poison, that just doesn't seem worth the cost per use. Also, until I have poison immunity, that seems a bit dangerous.


Eggshell grenades? Sprayers filled with aboleth mucus?

Not really familiar w/ these.


Carry a guisarme and make AoO trip attacks. No, you're not proficient, but you're making touch attacks, not regular attacks, so it evens out.

Or get a sandblaster and use it for AoE ranged attacks, no proficiency necessary. (It's in the MMIII, pg 58.)

Yeah, the reach trip weapon was what I assumed I'd be doing. Kusari-gama would actually be the best option since that only takes 1 hand and I'm not using the weapon to do damage anyway. But another player made a dual-wielding kusari-gama tripper, so he'd probably think I was copying him. :smallsmile:

As for sand blaster....the base ability seems pretty mediocre, and the methods to capitalize on its features I've found (posted by you) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19849506&postcount=8) seems like the kinds of things my DM would frown upon. Also, it needs 5 lbs of sand per shot, that just seems impractical to carry around.

That thread did point out the Scorpion Claw, though. +4 grapple checks regardless of proficiency, that's nice.

Scorpion Claw (Sandstorm):
Gives you a +4 bonus to grapple checks. Interestingly, you get the bonus even if you're not proficient with the claws, so that's nifty. The downside is your hand is essentially replaced with a scorpion claw. (Oh, who am I kidding, that's totally an upside. So badass!)

But the book says they come in pairs. Is there any support that you only need 1 for the grapple bonus?

[Curmudgeon]

Your best attack routine is Flurry of Blows, which means you can't make more than a 5' adjustment (or 10' if you've trained with a Sparring Dummy of the Master). The only ranged weapon you can integrate into a Flurry of Blows is a shuriken, so carry one of those in each hand. If your melee opponent drops partway through your full attack, you then have a couple of attacks you can make at range even if you don't have Quick Draw.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Your best attack routine is Flurry of Blows, which means you can't make more than a 5' adjustment (or 10' if you've trained with a Sparring Dummy of the Master). The only ranged weapon you can integrate into a Flurry of Blows is a shuriken, so carry one of those in each hand. If your melee opponent drops partway through your full attack, you then have a couple of attacks you can make at range even if you don't have Quick Draw.

I thought shuriken were treated as ammunition, and thus were already a free action to draw?

[Rubik]

I prefer taking the Throw Anything feat or adding the throwing enhancement to my unarmed strikes. Shoulder-checking someone from across the room is always handy, and you can still flurry with your unarmed strikes, even when throwing your body around.

[Âmesang]

Unarmed warforged kensai with throwing/returning enhancements = ROCKET PUNCH!!

[Rubik]

Unarmed warforged kensai with throwing/returning enhancements = ROCKET PUNCH!!Congrats, you've just torn your own hand off, and it ain't growing back.

[Inevitability]

Congrats, you've just torn your own hand off, and it ain't growing back.

Human Heritage (I blame the BoEF) + Troll-Blooded?

"SO WHAT IF I RIPPED MY OWN HAND OFF? I CAN MAKE ANOTHER!"

[Rubik]

Are there any weapons out there that grant claw attacks? Wield them and take the Beast Strike feat to add your claw damage to your unarmed strike damage. Alternately, go psychic warrior with Tashalatora and take Claws of the Beast as a power known.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Are there any weapons out there that grant claw attacks? Wield them and take the Beast Strike feat to add your claw damage to your unarmed strike damage. Alternately, go psychic warrior with Tashalatora and take Claws of the Beast as a power known.

I'm playing a race that comes with claws and a bite already, actually. Plan to chain them onto flurry w/ Multiattack feat. I would not take Beast Strike, though. Seems OP to me and the DM is a player in my game and I shot the feat down for his character, so I'm not going to ask him to allow it. Granted in his case it was in combo w/ Eldritch Claws or whatever it's called.

[Rubik]

I'm playing a race that comes with claws and a bite already, actually. Plan to chain them onto flurry w/ Multiattack feat. I would not take Beast Strike, though. Seems OP to me and the DM is a player in my game and I shot the feat down for his character, so I'm not going to ask him to allow it. Granted in his case it was in combo w/ Eldritch Claws or whatever it's called.If you can manage it, I would take Human Blooded (count as Humanoid (Human) and human skill points) and Jotunbruud. Then take two+ levels of dungeoncrasher fighter and work towards Knockback, Knock Down, and Improved Trip, then upgrade your unarmed strikes as hard as possible for reach and throwing, and push toward the highest bull rush bonuses you can get.

[Curmudgeon]

I thought shuriken were treated as ammunition, and thus were already a free action to draw?
They're treated as ammunition; that part is correct. However, only ammunition for bows is a free action to draw.
Ammunition

Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them (see Masterwork Weapons), and what happens to them after they are thrown.

[StreamOfTheSky]

They're treated as ammunition; that part is correct. However, only ammunition for bows is a free action to draw.

Yeah....that's pretty stupid RAW and clearly not the intent (intent being bows are the only projectile weapon that can be LOADED as a free action). It also means that the bolded part here: "Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them and what happens to them after they are thrown. "
Means literally nothing, which is obviously not right.

[FocusWolf413]

You should probably use a quarterstaff instead of unarmes strikes to get 1.5x str to damage.

[Curmudgeon]

Means literally nothing, which is obviously not right.
Have you not yet noticed that your leg is being pulled? That quote was from Player's Handbook page 113 (the Equipment chapter, an obvious place to look for rules about ammunition). But there's also this, from page 142 (the Combat chapter):
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
I do have a point to make here. To add to the annoyance about the ammunition action information not being in the obvious place, that statement about free action drawing is only in the MOVE ACTIONS section of the Combat chapter. There is also a FREE ACTIONS section in the chapter, but there's no mention of ammunition there. So, looking in all the right places for information about drawing ammunition will lead you to the incorrect conclusion: that only ammunition for bows is free to draw. You have to know which wrong place in the book holds the answer.

Your recall was good for the facts themselves, but not good enough to find RAW support for what you remembered. This rules issue comes up about as often as the random targeting when firing into melee, and the answer is just about as obscurely located. So I've picked up some odd habits, including memorizing page numbers of important rules, and learning how to bypass difficult rules entirely. Holding shuriken so you don't need to draw them is one such odd habit, though the initial reason for doing so was because you can get wielding-only magical enhancements (like Eager for +2 to initiative) for 1/50th the normal price when applied to shuriken.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Have you not yet noticed that your leg is being pulled? That quote was from Player's Handbook page 113 (the Equipment chapter, an obvious place to look for rules about ammunition). But there's also this, from page 142 (the Combat chapter):
I do have a point to make here. To add to the annoyance about the ammunition action information not being in the obvious place, that statement about free action drawing is only in the MOVE ACTIONS section of the Combat chapter. There is also a FREE ACTIONS section in the chapter, but there's no mention of ammunition there. So, looking in all the right places for information about drawing ammunition will lead you to the incorrect conclusion: that only ammunition for bows is free to draw. You have to know which wrong place in the book holds the answer.

Your recall was good for the facts themselves, but not good enough to find RAW support for what you remembered. This rules issue comes up about as often as the random targeting when firing into melee, and the answer is just about as obscurely located. So I've picked up some odd habits, including memorizing page numbers of important rules, and learning how to bypass difficult rules entirely. Holding shuriken so you don't need to draw them is one such odd habit, though the initial reason for doing so was because you can get wielding-only magical enhancements (like Eager for +2 to initiative) for 1/50th the normal price when applied to shuriken.

Umm....ok. :smalleek:

I feel like this thread's gone wildly off the tracks. I was asking for some options to do stuff w/ my free hands, and now its all build advice and...that mess.

I think I've settled on scorpion claw + kusari-gama combo, in any case.

[PallentisLunam]

Besides holding the torch/lantern, I figured I could use a reach tripping weapon despite being non-proficient with it, just to make AoO trips (-4 to hit against touch AC? no big deal) from outside most foes' reach so they can't AoO me for lacking the Imp. Trip feat (yet).

Actually, you don't need a reach weapon to avoid AoOs for tripping. You only provoke for tripping while unarmed

[StreamOfTheSky]

Actually, you don't need a reach weapon to avoid AoOs for tripping. You only provoke for tripping while unarmed

Ah, right I forgot that. Never understood why IUS didn't remove the AoO for tripping unarmed, considering trip weapons avoid it.

[PallentisLunam]

Ah, right I forgot that. Never understood why IUS didn't remove the AoO for tripping unarmed, considering trip weapons avoid it.

Well tripping unarmed is actually not the greatest strategy anyways because unarmed strikes are considered light weapons which impose a -4 to the opposed rolls. As a monk you can go with a reach weapon and improved trip to get BAB+STR+4(Two handed bonus)+4(Improved trip) and potentially +4 for a size up to large which also increases your UAS damage. You might still want a reach weapon because it will allow you to trip as an AoO and improved trip gives you free attacks on successful trips. Even wielding a 2 handed reach weapon you can flurry with your feet, elbows, face, whatever.

Edit:And if you roll badly you can drop the weapon. You can't drop your arm, leg, face, whatever.

[Rubik]

Well tripping unarmed is actually not the greatest strategy anyways because unarmed strikes are considered light weapons which impose a -4 to the opposed rolls. As a monk you can go with a two handed weapon and improved trip to get BAB+STR+4(Two handed bonus)+4(Improved trip) and potentially +4 for a size up to large which also increases your UAS damage. You might still want a reach weapon anyways to trip as an AoO and improved trip gives you free attacks on successful trips. Even wielding a 2 handed reach weapon you can flurry with your feet, elbows, face, whatever.Bonuses and penalties for weapon sizes are only for disarming and sundering attempts.

[PallentisLunam]

Bonuses and penalties for weapon sizes are only for disarming and sundering attempts.

Ahh, so they are. However the rest of the post still stands

[Curmudgeon]

Never understood why IUS didn't remove the AoO for tripping unarmed, considering trip weapons avoid it.
The feat does do so; it's just not stated explicitly.
Making a Trip Attack
Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

Benefit: You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed.
Improved Unarmed Strike makes it so that you normally do not provoke AoOs when striking unarmed. Unarmed Trip attacks provoke as normal for unarmed attacks: i.e., not at all, once you have IUS.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The feat does do so; it's just not stated explicitly.

Improved Unarmed Strike makes it so that you normally do not provoke AoOs when striking unarmed. Unarmed Trip attacks provoke as normal for unarmed attacks: i.e., not at all, once you have IUS.

Interesting. That's how I feel it should be concluded, but pretty much every DM I've ever had has not agreed. And I did actually ask about this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?276407-Trip-question-that-s-bothered-me-for-years) years ago, had to do some google searching to find it.

Someone pointed out a counter-argument that was pretty convincing, though:

I see where you are going with this and while there has been a lot of speculation about interpretation, none of that is not necessary. I have a direct answer to your question from the horse's mouth. Trip attacks are addressed in this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060307a) by the man himself, Skip Williams. But there is one paragraph in particular that answers your question and dilemma very specifically.


"The rules don't come right out and say it, but you use your melee touch attack to get a purchase on your foe (so you can throw, push, or pull him down). The melee touch attack provokes an attack of opportunity from your foe." -- excerpt from Rules of the Game Article by Skip Williams

The intent here is revealed in full. To get the leverage over your foe enough to actually trip they require a melee touch - not a melee attack.

The confusion comes from the pairing of the statement make a melee touch attack and then equating unarmed strikes...which by definition are not melee touches at all. No where do the rules state either in improved trip or trip attack that you can make a melee attack (unarmed or otherwise) to start the trip. In fact, it explicitly states that it must be a melee touch.

This to me seems very similar to why creatures need Improved Grab to land a melee attack and start a grapple instead of a melee touch.

However, there is no such option for tripping. Your options include using a weapon to make the melee touch which is a workaround for the sole purpose of avoiding the AoO. Or taking the feat which is the other explicit work around. The Improved Unarmed Strike feat does not allow you start a grapple without provoking an attack of opportunity even though you are considered armed b/c a melee touch is not "unarmed strike" it is just a melee touch which is its own creature entirely.

[PallentisLunam]

Well unfortunately the writers' intents are often not reflected in the actual rules. I think in this case the counter to the counter is that the language "as normal for unarmed attacks" is present in the entry for trips and not for grapples. Therefore IUS actually does remove the AoO for unarmed trip attempts and not for grapple attempts regardless of Mr. William's opinion on the matter or his original intent.

[Curmudgeon]

No where do the rules state either in improved trip or trip attack that you can make a melee attack (unarmed or otherwise) to start the trip.
The problem with this main point of the counter-argument is that it's irrelevant. The provocation is stated to be "as normal for unarmed attacks", not just as normal for unarmed touch attacks. We're not concerned with the mechanism for how a Trip is started here except for whether that provokes an AoO. And for purposes of provoking, the "touch" subset of such attacks doesn't get any mention.