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Kami2awa
2015-11-28, 03:54 AM
I read a lot on this and other forums about "Batman wizards"; wizards who, with appropriate spell preparation, are prepared (or can be prepared) to beat just about anything.

However, this is the internet, where conjecture is king and anecdote is data. I'm wondering if anyone has encountered a PC wizard in an actual game (not a hypothetical build) who does this.

If so, did it work? And did they overshadow the other PCs? Was it an enjoyable game for the others? And was it enjoyable for Batman's player themselves?

Inevitability
2015-11-28, 09:10 AM
You might want to move this to the 3.5 subforum.

Florian
2015-11-29, 08:51 AM
I haven't seen this kind of Wizard so far.

Âmesang
2015-11-29, 09:10 AM
That's actually my mindset for my sorceress character. With so "few" spells known (and with no real insight on how the party's bard and necromancer decided on their spells), I loaded her up with a lot of utility: fly, greater teleport, protection from energy, greater dispel magic, Rary's interplanar telepathic bond, limited wish, prestige classing into archmage, etc., etc. After all, anyone can do damage — I wanted her to do the things no one else (or at least relatively few) in the party could… mostly just to make sure she's useful and "doing her part."

Even her few offensive spells are ones that have (or will have) more utility: disintegrate for portions of large areas, cone of cold (at least when she gains "mastery of elements" and "mastery of shaping"), and, yes, even obtaining polymorph any object down the line for its ability to replicate half-a-dozen other spells. I'll be the first to admit it's all very cookie-cutter, but even her backstory and goals is to become the living embodiment of sorcery/magic to prove she's superior to her wizardly kin, so I'd want her to be as well-rounded as possible and, well…

…to be prepared. :smalltongue:

AMFV
2015-11-29, 10:44 PM
You might want to move this to the 3.5 subforum.

Why? The idea of a Wizard who can solve all party problems exists in several editions of D&D, in NWoD, and several other games. Heck, in Mutants and Masterminds a "Batman Wizard" concept would literally likely be Batman (or anybody with sufficient abuse of the variable power.

To answer the OP. I have seen this sort of thing, it tends to be the sort of wizard I play. Basically the way I avoid causing problems is by limiting the number of encounters I solve, or contribute the majority of a solution to. If there are four encounters in an adventuring day, I try not to solve outright more than one of them.

As a DM, I tend to build a few encounters into each session geared to specific players, to allow them to have their moment in the spotlight. So if there's a batman wizard, I create a scenario specifically geared to require a number of niche spells, if there's a power attacking charge fighter, I create an encounter where there's a big pile of HP for them to charge. And I try to balance these with encounters that work for the whole party.

Exediron
2015-11-30, 12:31 AM
I've only seen one attempt, and it didn't work very well for the player.

The core issue is that batman is like a particularly esoteric theoretical physics problem; beautiful in concept and demonstration, but totally useless in a real world situation. The entire idea hinges on the ability of the player to correctly anticipate every contingency, and predictably enough the player I saw attempt to play a batman wizard wasn't able to do so. As a result at least half of the spells he memorized each day finished the day unused and unhelpful, and his utility to the party didn't last nearly as long as he imagined it would. Worse, the adventure we were engaged in didn't feature many (any, to my memory) opportunities to loot scrolls or otherwise increase his spell selection, so he also fell well short of the theoretical ideal of knowing every spell.

AMFV
2015-11-30, 12:42 AM
I've only seen one attempt, and it didn't work very well for the player.

The core issue is that batman is like a particularly esoteric theoretical physics problem; beautiful in concept and demonstration, but totally useless in a real world situation. The entire idea hinges on the ability of the player to correctly anticipate every contingency, and predictably enough the player I saw attempt to play a batman wizard wasn't able to do so. As a result at least half of the spells he memorized each day finished the day unused and unhelpful, and his utility to the party didn't last nearly as long as he imagined it would. Worse, the adventure we were engaged in didn't feature many (any, to my memory) opportunities to loot scrolls or otherwise increase his spell selection, so he also fell well short of the theoretical ideal of knowing every spell.

Typically a good batman involves having at least some ability to predict what comes next. Scrying or divination, in D&D (and others) is key to it. My solution is usually to have three or four separate "standard" lists, that I prepare for a specific expected scenario (this would be in D&D and equivalents), like a "dungeon" list or a "heavy combat" list, then I typically leave a few slots open to fill with situational spells as situations where they would be useful. As soon as I get divination I use it to figure out which list would be optimal for any given situation.

JoeJ
2015-11-30, 02:56 AM
I've never seen anybody play a Batman wizard. It would be extremely difficult to do unless you're playing a game like M&M that lets players pull off one-time power stunts.

BootStrapTommy
2015-11-30, 03:02 AM
A fellow called Treantmonk has guides to building "God Wizards" out there on the internet.

The 3.5 guide is based on his personal anecdote. Supposedly, his party thought he was totally useless. An observation he claims is incorrect, based on the fact that his Batman wizard's presence corresponded to a noted decrease in party deaths in what was an otherwise high mortality campaign.

Personally, I've never experienced one.

Faily
2015-11-30, 09:05 AM
Closest thing I've been myself was a Transmuter Wizard/Sorcerer/Ultimate Magus I played in Red Hand of Doom and the homebrew sequel the GM ran for us. Apart from the divine spells that the Favoured Soul covered, she almost every time had the right tools for the job.

Chapter 1: Knowledge: Architecture and Engineering to spot the weakness in the Skull Gorge Bridge, and the right spell to apply enough damage to topple the entire thing. See Invisibility+Glitterdust to deal with an invisible flying green dragon.
Chapter 2: Mass Fly and Invisibility to give a stealthy approach to the sunken city.
Chapter 3: Ghost Touch Armor for the fighters to deal with incorporeal enemies, as well as Mass Darkvision to avoid having to use light-source in the dark place. Good Search to find all the secret doors in the Ghost Lord's Lair.
Chapter 4: Scry to learn of Abithriax. Dispel Magic on Abithriax as well as Mass Resist Energy to combat him. Cast Web in the "Streets of Blood"-scene and thus had to do nothing else the rest of that encounter. Dimension Door to quickly catch up with the would-be assassin. Evard's Black Tentacles to take out the general's posse so the Favoured Soul could get his wish to go one-on-one with him.
Chapter 5: Featherfall in the combat against the blue dragon. Mass Fly and enough blasting power to get through to the end fight asap.


In the sequel, there was an entire ambush-event negated because of the right spell (fun fact: Leomund's Tiny Hut is a Force-spell... making it rather difficult for ghosts to ambush the sleeping party XD), a hole in our ship emergency-mended with a Wall of Ice, a rather fast voyage on the sea because of the right spells to give us favourable wind as much as possible, Waterbreathing at the ready for when we suddenly had to jump into an underground river, and another ambush foiled because of Teleport.

I would say the only things she weren't prepared for was too much damage to herself... or Fortitude saves. :smallbiggrin: Oh, so many failed Fortitude saves against Petrification.

Douche
2015-11-30, 10:50 AM
I've only seen one attempt, and it didn't work very well for the player.

The core issue is that batman is like a particularly esoteric theoretical physics problem; beautiful in concept and demonstration, but totally useless in a real world situation. The entire idea hinges on the ability of the player to correctly anticipate every contingency, and predictably enough the player I saw attempt to play a batman wizard wasn't able to do so. As a result at least half of the spells he memorized each day finished the day unused and unhelpful, and his utility to the party didn't last nearly as long as he imagined it would. Worse, the adventure we were engaged in didn't feature many (any, to my memory) opportunities to loot scrolls or otherwise increase his spell selection, so he also fell well short of the theoretical ideal of knowing every spell.

That's probably because he didn't have an opportunity to study his opponent. Batman doesn't need to study random thugs, and he didn't have to "blow his big spells" on them, cuz he just punches them into submission.

If it was a big bad or some important henchmen, or even just a boss monster, though, he should be able to know how to prepare himself to counter it. That might become metagaming, as he would probably peek in the monster manual to know what abilities a certain monster would have ahead of time, but if the DM gave him enough of an opportunity to study the opponent and gave him the info he needed without the player having to cheat by looking it up, then it is feasible.

Furthermore, Batman usually didn't have "time to prepare" before fighting every single villain. He'd often get his butt kicked and escape with his life, or the villain would get away with the diamond without taking the gamble of trying to finish him off. In D&D, on the other hand, we usually kill the bad guys on the first try, or get killed.

Joe the Rat
2015-11-30, 11:34 AM
That's actually a good analysis, at least of Batman proper. He doesn't prepare for everything, he prepares for what he knows he's against, and things he always needs to watch out for. And having contingency plans for high-risk situations (a rogue Martian, for example).

At least that's modern Batman. Batman Wizard is more based on Silver Age Batman, who was more prone to have just the right thing every time*. Sodium Hydroxide tablets to neutralize the acid pool (note: not actually enough NaOH). Shark repellent in a helicopter. A mask beneath the cowl. That kind of nonsense. Sometimes this isn't items, but training. Secret Tibetan "stop breathing for a while" techniques. Blindfighting. Escape artistry. But even then, half the time that ridiculous just-right item was dependent on studying clues ahead of time (Detective is sort of his thing). Toxic gas residue? Hints of an bayside base? bring a rebreather.

But all of this misses the other trait - the ability to improvise with the tools on hand. Making costumes out of signal chutes. Smashing the chandelier to get broken glass to cut through a net. Talking your opponents into shooting vases off your head to get those sharp shards. Most ridiculous deathtraps are defeated through ingenuity, not fortuitous pocket-stuffing. This really is what makes Bat-Caster work. Not having 1,001 scrolls and potions, but having 15 tools, and a way to use those tools to cover any situation. This is where it falls to the player. This is actually the closest I've seen to a Batman Wizard - the guy who has a few basic or highly versatile spells on hand, and finds ways to use them to solve problems - especially by using them in unusual or unintended ways. This type is actually a bit more awesome to see in action, as "tools on hand" often includes the other characters. (Contingency for a telepathic shapechanger? A shapechanger immune to telepathy.)

* - the MEGS DC Heroes game actually had a way to simulate this trait - the Omni-Gadget. It's a one-shot undefined item that turns out to be exactly what you need (or think you need) in a given situation. For 3.5 Batwizard, you have Alacritous Cogitation.

Florian
2015-11-30, 11:46 AM
Jupp. But that still relies on the player, his system mastery, knowledge and most of all, creativity. Possibly add tactical acumen to the mix. In a sense, even more important, knowing your gm and beating him on every point mentioned.

Guys like us, who hang out in communities like this one, do have that. But most average gamers never find their way here or are interested enough to kneel deep into system mastery.

LudicSavant
2015-11-30, 11:53 AM
Ingredients needed for seeing "Batman Wizards" in real play:
1) A player, playing a wizard, who is good at anticipation, improvisation, and valuation.
2) A DM who does not pull punches and presents challenges dangerous enough for such a player to have an incentive to actually try.

Get these things together in 3.5e and you'll have Batman Wizards. They work very well.

DigoDragon
2015-11-30, 11:58 AM
The few "Batman Wizards" I've seen (and by few, I mean like... 2-3) tend to be the more creative players who are good at picking up clues and coming up with ideas on the fly to get out of bad situations. Being prepared helps sure, but creativity will save a player when they find a situation they don't have a prepared plan for. Out of the few I've had in my campaigns, only one has survived to the end. Eventually every Batman meets their Bane. :smallwink:

Amphetryon
2015-11-30, 01:29 PM
I've seen this done in 3.X more than once, with some variety of Divination-savvy Wizard and genre-savvy Player making the game go into Easy Mode for everyone else at the table.

Curiously, I've seen something akin to this in an old game of Tales From the Floating Vagabond, as well, where one of the Players used The Trenchcoat Effect, with the help of a cooperating fellow Player and amused GM.