Help Me Crush A Nation!

[glitterbaby]

So one of my characters is one of the most intelligent humanoids on the Prime and he's looking to dismantle a nation. The nation in question is a highly militarized country based loosely on the historical Roman Empire. The country boasts a population of about 200,000 with a standing army at about 70,000. All men 17-45 are in the military and some of the older ones stay. They also have their auxiliaries and mercenaries to think of. In and around the country there are about 60,000ish stationed, two legions are abroad.

So how do we raise an army to deal with that? We're level 4 right now so Leadership is coming up next level but my character has a pretty terrible charisma so that's not going to do me much good. The party consists of a Factotumish (me), a melee brute, a Sorcerer, a smart archer, and an Alchemist (PF). We have about 25-30k depending on how the appraisal goes for a magic dagger (low magic, identify doesn't exist).

So then I'm looking for some help with this army business. How might I raise the army? How would I fund it? How would I continue to fund it? How would I handle discipline? I'm not very good at this sort of thing so really any and all help would be great. Thanks in advance!

[antoin]

What foreign powers are nearby? How powerful is this nation compared to others in the region? Does the Roman empire have established enemies? Is there controversy in high offices? Could a civil war be started (potentially)? Why do you want to crush this nation in the first place?

You are going to need most likely the sponsorship of another nation. In a low-magic world without Identify, you probably aren't getting extraplanar armies to work for you. An army big enough to take out 70000? In their home turf? Try to get 100K at your command to have a reasonably good chance of this working.

Raising the army is largely world-dependent and is based on the questions above. You are going to need a ton more money to pay them all, so unless destruction of this nation needs to happen tomorrow, you should try to do some quests, level up, and get more money before pursuing this. As far as discipline...if you can actually get this far, discipline is a minor concern in comparison.

These are my initial musings, but I have no experience playing in a military-ish campaign. This sounds really interesting to me, though. Anyone else?

[Inevitability]

Wait for everyone to starve to death. Really, having 130,000 people, many of them children, be responsible for supplying and feeding 70,000 people, while also having a normal infrastructure and culture, in a low-magic world is going to end in disaster.

A reserve force of 70,000, while hard to believe, I can accept. But a standing army? Heck no.

[frost890]

Rome fell because it grew to large to control. With all the men conscripted in to the army and set away it leaves a vacuum that has to be filled by the women and the really old. In a low magic and low tech world if you made it past 30 it would be a wish come true because of war, infection, plague, Ect.

I would start with politics. There must be someone in nobility that does not want to send their only child(son) off to war. Assassinate the council members that would oppose some of the changes you would make. Use thief guild contacts to stir up a conflict between nobles. I the Player is as smart as the character he is playing he can use the conflict to his advantage. Keep in mind without magic it can take weeks between city states. Forge documents that stir up trouble with there neighbors.

By the way if every male 17-45 is sent off to war how do you keep a population up?

[stanprollyright]

So one of my characters is one of the most intelligent humanoids on the Prime and he's looking to dismantle a nation. The nation in question is a highly militarized country based loosely on the historical Roman Empire. The country boasts a population of about 200,000 with a standing army at about 70,000. All men 17-45 are in the military and some of the older ones stay. They also have their auxiliaries and mercenaries to think of. In and around the country there are about 60,000ish stationed, two legions are abroad.

So how do we raise an army to deal with that? We're level 4 right now so Leadership is coming up next level but my character has a pretty terrible charisma so that's not going to do me much good. The party consists of a Factotumish (me), a melee brute, a Sorcerer, a smart archer, and an Alchemist (PF). We have about 25-30k depending on how the appraisal goes for a magic dagger (low magic, identify doesn't exist).

So then I'm looking for some help with this army business. How might I raise the army? How would I fund it? How would I continue to fund it? How would I handle discipline? I'm not very good at this sort of thing so really any and all help would be great. Thanks in advance!

Think like a terrorist. Steal or destroy food sources and supplies, cause panic, try to incite a civil war, get the attention of a rival nation. I don't know your alignment, but if you are nongood you can burn farms and contaminate water sources. Disrupt their trade. Assassinate leaders. Destroy infrastructure. A nation that is starving and panicked and biting its own tail isn't going to be able to fight a very effective war, or retain the loyalty of its troops.

tl;dr: Cause chaos, save up more money/gain levels, start a civil war, and buy their mercenaries out from under them.

[Âmesang]

My first thought was to summon Lü Bu, but that would probably require epic magic…

[Quertus]

Wars are won, largely, by morale. Rome usually wins the morale war. Defeat the legion? They send more. Gather an impressive army? Rome switches to guerrilla tactics. Siege Rome? The empire is huge, help will come. Sack Rome? Nobody cares, the legions keep fighting. Capture a Roman, and threaten to torture him? He breaks free, and holds his arm in the fire until it burns his hand off (true story).

Introduce them to lead plumbing, wait for insanity to take hold.


Wait for everyone to starve to death. Really, having 130,000 people, many of them children, be responsible for supplying and feeding 70,000 people, while also having a normal infrastructure and culture, in a low-magic world is going to end in disaster.

A reserve force of 70,000, while hard to believe, I can accept. But a standing army? Heck no.

RAW, 20 level 1, 10 wis peasants with 4 ranks in survival will, on average, be able to feed 18 people. This is part of why, RAW, most species are dead, having starved to death long ago. "Wait for them to starve to death" works for almost all species in d&d, even if the entire population is dedicated to gathering food.

If less skilled, less dedicated species are still around, one could handwave "superior agriculture" plus "strong society" to let this empire exist.

But, you are definitely on to something - attacking the infrastructure would be a smart move.


By the way if every male 17-45 is sent off to war how do you keep a population up?

Everyone is the child of the emperor. Or else people in that society are having children at more midevil-appropriate ages that seem odd to our modern sensibilities.

[Florian]

At level 4? Fat chance....

Best chance would be by getting some type of circle magic going (with leadership) to raise the caster level on animate dead/create undead types of spell and get some type of spawning undead going that pose a thread to the low-level opponents but still can be exterminated later on.

Then defeat the undead plague, be heroes and demand to be accepted as new rulers.

Edit: If you can, summon and bind a Nabasu demon. They spawn Ghouls and if fed enough high-level targets, they'll depart for the abyss, ceasing to be a problem.

[JBarca]

DM of this game here!


Wait for everyone to starve to death. Really, having 130,000 people, many of them children, be responsible for supplying and feeding 70,000 people, while also having a normal infrastructure and culture, in a low-magic world is going to end in disaster.

A reserve force of 70,000, while hard to believe, I can accept. But a standing army? Heck no.

A standing army that functions defensively and is therefore stationed within the nation's borders. And the answer to the supply problem: Slaves. Lots and lots of slaves. Plus one or two other factors that aren't well-known enough for me to just be throwing on here in front of my player(s?).



By the way if every male 17-45 is sent off to war how do you keep a population up?

See above. The men are almost exclusively stationed within the borders. Cities double as garrisons. Families might live in camps near fortifications on more peaceful borders. Things like that. The huge army in this case just means that the men are not doing other jobs; they're training and "on call," ready for conflict at any point. They're not just constantly fighting. That would not be sustainable, no.

Also, the "younger than a modern person" parent option is definitely true. As soon as maturity strikes, you'd better get to baby-making.

[stanprollyright]

DM of this game here!

May we direct questions to you? Specifically the stuff about rival nations or other groups that might potentially ally with a the overthrowers.


EDIT: OOH! Slaves! That's a pool of potential soldiers right there! And a good way to disrupt the means of production by freeing them en masse.

[glitterbaby]

Great suggestions thus far! The circle magic and undead apocalypse probably won't fit in the low magic setting so we'll probably hold off on that. General consensus then is to not raise an actual army but to lead a terrorist organization of sorts until the country collapses in on itself?

[stanprollyright]

General consensus then is to not raise an actual army but to lead a terrorist organization of sorts until the country collapses in on itself?

No, that could take decades. Just be a terrorist until the time is ripe and you've got more money and levels under your belt. Free the slaves, outbid the mercs, cause the general population to question their loyalty, and see if you can find a powerful sponsor. THEN march in with your new army like a hero.

[Florian]

Great suggestions thus far! The circle magic and undead apocalypse probably won't fit in the low magic setting so we'll probably hold off on that. General consensus then is to not raise an actual army but to lead a terrorist organization of sorts until the country collapses in on itself?

Depending on your tastes, pick a patron and start forming a cult to establish a secret power base of followers, that you have in your hand. If you pick an evil patron, make pretty sure to stay anonym the whole time, most of all to the members.

For example, if your setting has a god like Desna, start a cult for her amongst the slaves.
If it caters to your tastes, start a cult for Baphomet amongst higher ranking nobility and gouvernment officials. A mixture of coercipn and blackmail should do the trick.
Actually, do both at the same time.

Start a Civil War, devide and conquer, pick the winning side to support openly.

[JBarca]

May we direct questions to you? Specifically the stuff about rival nations or other groups that might potentially ally with a the overthrowers.


Sure thing.

Rival nations: There are three Dwarven nations (conveniently surrounding the borders of the nation in question) that, historically, have no gotten along well with this group. Of course, the same can be said of most places; glitterbaby's enemy here is a nation of xenophobic warmongers, so no one really like them. The other borders of the nation (non Dwarven borders) are a desert and a forest that houses the last of the Elves (who are completely isolationist).

There is a huge group of nomadic tribes a decent distance away that the nation is currently warring with. This is not a war of conquest. They routinely send up-and-coming nobles over there at the head of a small army to train new soldiers (trial by fire), train the nobles in leadership, and acquire plunder. Currently, the crown prince is leading a force against them. The problem is the distance and geographic barriers (marshes and forests) between the two.

[Florian]

So, basically surrounded by enemies, maybe potential sources for mercenary troops.

[stanprollyright]

Rival nations: There are three Dwarven nations (conveniently surrounding the borders of the nation in question) that, historically, have no gotten along well with this group. Of course, the same can be said of most places; glitterbaby's enemy here is a nation of xenophobic warmongers, so no one really like them. The other borders of the nation (non Dwarven borders) are a desert and a forest that houses the last of the Elves (who are completely isolationist).

@glitterbaby: Convincing any one or combination of these nations to give money and/or troops would be a huge boon.


There is a huge group of nomadic tribes a decent distance away that the nation is currently warring with. This is not a war of conquest. They routinely send up-and-coming nobles over there at the head of a small army to train new soldiers (trial by fire), train the nobles in leadership, and acquire plunder. Currently, the crown prince is leading a force against them. The problem is the distance and geographic barriers (marshes and forests) between the two.

For a start, follow the prince and make sure his army gets crushed. Help the barbarians any way you can and kill the prince if possible. Make sure the barbs know you helped. Then on the way back, (geography depending) I'd swing around through the dwarven nations and make a few contacts without letting on what your endgame is. Just make some friends and scope out each nation's political climate. Then head back and start freeing slaves. Make a base in the forest or marshes or somewhere difficult to march an army to and lead the newly freed slaves to be housed there temporarily. Maybe you can get the barbarians to help with this (I would assume that some, if not most, of the slaves are former barbarians). From among the slaves you create your terrorist organization and start launching more missions simultaneously. Free more slaves, destroy infrastructure, burn farms, steal weapons, ambush caravans, assassinate leaders, all that stuff. Once enough chaos has been created you go back to your dwarven nation friends and the barbarian tribes and ask for whatever assistance they can render.

[Florian]

Starting a false flag op against one of the dwarven nations could also prove quite beneficial in the long run.

[stanprollyright]

Starting a false flag op against one of the dwarven nations could also prove quite beneficial in the long run.

I was just about to say that. Raid a garrison, dress yourselves and some freed slaves up as military, and attack the neighboring nations so that they go to war.

[Âmesang]

"I've hired you to help me start a war. It's a prestigious line of work, with a long and glorious tradition!"

[Florian]

@glitterbaby & JBarca:

Some general questions:
- What's the intended time scale for this whole scenario?
- Are you only interested in crushing that nation or are there further interests?
- How role play vs. roll play should it be?
- How is your stance on using "higher zoom factor" stuff like PF downtime and kingdom rules?
- Do you integrate plausible things like seasons and their effect or longer communication times?
- How deep do you want to go into ressource management?

[Tvtyrant]

Your WBL makes this pretty easy with some luck and some scrolls. Greater invisibility scrolls gets you inside, scroll of mind rape gives you control over head general/military leader, order coup + simultaneous invasion of neighboring country. Claim that the ruler was going to allow the neighbor to enslave the population for wealth, your guy truly believes it and causes a bloody two front war.

[JBarca]

@glitterbaby & JBarca:

Some general questions:
- What's the intended time scale for this whole scenario?
Entirely up the the players.


- Are you only interested in crushing that nation or are there further interests?
See above.


- How role play vs. roll play should it be?
I much prefer role. That is, I would rather see the characters come up with a solution that isn't along the lines of "Each of us takes Leadership. Each of our cohorts takes Leadership. etc. We use our massed followers to begin a war. We roll Diplomacy checks to convince the other nations to aid us." And so on.


- How is your stance on using "higher zoom factor" stuff like PF downtime and kingdom rules?
Wholly unfamiliar with the latter, indifferent on the former, assuming you mean downtime skills? (and thus neither is implemented in this game)


- Do you integrate plausible things like seasons and their effect or longer communication times?
I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you asking if the nation in question operates like a "hive mind," ie instant information dispersed throughout its government? If so, no. If the players destroy a legion that is alone and there are no survivors, likely no one will know until they try to contact said legion. Things like that. And sure, a deep snow or heavy rain will slow things down. If I failed to answer your question, my apologies.


- How deep do you want to go into ressource management?
Not particularly. If the players start burning farms, the response will be a general weakening of the empire. People starving, peasants dying, riots and such. I won't be writing down "14 units of grain lost, four families starve..." Things like that. It'll be vague. I'll be doing my best to enact realistic and meaningful consequences for actions, but I'm not committed to creating a fully detailed and living economy for a game.



Your WBL makes this pretty easy with some luck and some scrolls. Greater invisibility scrolls gets you inside, scroll of mind rape gives you control over head general/military leader, order coup + simultaneous invasion of neighboring country. Claim that the ruler was going to allow the neighbor to enslave the population for wealth, your guy truly believes it and causes a bloody two front war.

Just to clear some things up. "Low Magic" in this setting is mostly for feel. Spellcasters are rare, magic items are rare, magic is weak. A few concrete changes that will matter for this discussion, I think: spells above 4th level basically don't exist. There are few exceptions, based somewhat closely on Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm). Mind Rape? Probably not in existence at all. There aren't magic marts, either. magic items above CL ~6 or so are considered "artifacts." Ancient relics of bygone days. If you want a magic item, you'll be doing some research to find someone who owns one, then bartering with them. Gold is great and all, but a magic item is all but priceless. It's rare that they're just bought and sold.

Many spells in the Divination school are raised a level (the info gathering ones, primarily (including Detect Magic, Augury, and the like. Divination, the spell, doesn't exist. Calling spells don't exist, except as Incantations. Noncore spells are rare and require permission to access (not likely to matter much; most of the party is Mundane-ish).

Caster Level slows down drastically at 8th level. So people with CL 9+ are incredibly rare. People with 12+ levels are legends; almost nonexistent.

I think that's most of the important stuff.

[Florian]

@JBarca:

"Downtime" and "Kingdom" are two differnt time scales with very simplified ressource mangement on both fronts, "money" and "people". The rules can be found in Ultimate Compaign as well as the PRD.

"Downtime" focuses on a month and helps with establishing smalltimish goals like establishing a trade route or a spy network.
"Kingdom" focuses on a season and handles larger scale things like raising an army and keeping them fed and equipped without going too deep into it.

These rules aim at keeping the "Character Level" free from cluttering up with the whole management stuff and also to provide simple tools to get results.
For example, instead of fiddling around with Leadership and then check any result on the individual NPC, you simply hire a team of spies or recruit some troops and use the rules to check on their progress.
That's useful as it keeps the "meta"-niveau pretty low and people can keep focused on their characters.

For example, you would roleplay scouting out the location for a base camp and gaining some early followers, mostly bandits, then use the downtime rules to establish that camp and employ the bandits, using the system to check on how things progress and develop from then on while the characters themselves are off to incite the slave rebellion, and so on.

[atemu1234]

Rome fell because its base eroded; destroy that base - in this case, farmlands upon which the military depends. Attack trade caravans carrying food from foreign nations.

The people will rise and do the job for you.

Also, you could take out the upper echelons of leadership, leaving unclear the line of succession, causing a power struggle. You could theoretically turn an organized military into a mob of warlords this way.

[Florian]

Terminally bored in office and still one hour to go, so I'll fight my ennui by creating a small roadmap for a conflict.

Suggested reading: The Prince, The Art of War.
Rules used: Core (3,5 or PF), Ultimate Campaign.

Preparation:
- Level up a bit to gain crucial skills, like Profession (Soldier), Knowledge (Nature, Nobility, History, Local), Perform (Oratory)
- Sell the dagger for Capital, 10K in gp, the rest evenly in Goods, Influence, Labor, Magic.
- Take Leadership, but don't chose any followers or a cohort right now.

Phase 1 - Spring:
Travel to the woods between the target kingdom and the nomad lands. Explore them, get to know the locals, especially bandits and brigands and befriend them.
Map the area, taking special note on trade routes and where the army passes.
(Depending on the setting, look of for interesting monster lairs, especially higher CR ones)

Summer:
Have a Large Bandit Camp built and recruit a Scirmisher Team. While this is on the way, go scouting for your first cohort, because you'll need someone trustworthy to oversee this part of the operation. Also, talk to merchants, traders and travellers, and get an update on the overall situation.

Autumn:
Happy raiding time. The skirmishers set out to work, raiding and plundering harvesting operations, mainly to shore up your stockades for winter. You go out and target your first higher priority targets, like the richer merchants and try your luck at fighting an outpost commander. Sack some uniforms, banners and some such. End this season with the skirmishers back in camp (supervised by the cohort) and you being in residence in one of the dwarven capitals.

Winter:
Ah, the time for socializing, deal making, contracts and backstabbing. Hit the social circles, try to gain some contacts or connections. Main issue is to find out who has the deepest pockets and the deepest grudge against the target kingdom and get solid info on them. We finish up this season by investing some of our remaining Capital in establishing a spy ring to monitor the dwarves for us.

Spring:
Finally roads are free again to travel and we'll do that a lot this year. First stop is home, where we outfit out skirmishers with the stolen livery and set them to work, raiding the weakest holding of the dwarf with the deepest grudge. Meanwhile, we head of to the capital of the target kingdom, to get a feeling about the political lay of the land and establish our second spy ring.

Summer:
Damn, that's hot out there. Brutal work conditions. Time to get in touch with the local slave population, heating things up far enough to simmer, not enough to cook. Recruit some hirelings here, taking half of the with us, leaving the rest in place.
If time (and setting) permits, we should try to get some blackmail on lower-tier movers and shackers going.

Autumn:
Back at home, we recall our skirmishers and set out to recruit a Soldier Team. Gotta go for that harvest, merchants and outposts again. After that, back to the dwarves.

Winter:
Time for some talks with the poor dwarven victims. Gotta work on that grudge, man. We need some military aid and it must definetelly be dwarves. Before we leave again for the next season, we leave behind a little surprise in the form of a thieves guild, with one of our ex-slaves in charge.

Phase 2 - Spring:
This will be a busy year, as we have to create a two-fronts situation now and prepare the situation for further eskalation. Back at home, we redeploy our skirmishers to help funnel freed slaves towards the nomads, set our soldiers towards protecting and coercing nearby farming communities and set our new dwarven allies towards raiding the target kingdom.

Summer:
Back in the enemy capital, we now have two critical tasks to perform. It's time to incite the slave population further, from simmer to a boil, while giving those slaves who are not fit for a rebellion and would perish the chance to escape via our controlled countryside. Next, we must coerce our blackmailees into engineering to hold back some of the troops of the kingdom, keeping them frustrated and pent up.
Well, we must get in touch with those soldiers, right, rubbing it under their noses that there's trouble brewing and their commanders are holding them back. Time to establish a Hidden Cult with them (In name only).

Autumn:
Harvest time again. A little bit different this time, as we already have quite a bit of it going into our pockets. Our regular soldiers must protect this, while the dwarves divert the enemy to and possibly over the borders to the dwarven kingdom.
We play headhunters again with enemy commanders, then we prepare to visit our nomad neighbours.

Winter:
Surprise, surprise, the freed slaves are trickling back home right now and tales of their blight have already spread. Our job this winter is to convince the nomad leaders to help their enslaved breathren and offer a big gift by showing them where exactly the enemy soldiers we help holding back will not bother them. Enjoy the shishkebab and yak mead. Oh, don't forget, they have to stay away from our territory.

Spring - Summer - Autumn:
This will be a mammut task, occupying most of our time. We must work with the slave population, convincing them not only to rise up for freedom, but for equal rights and to aim at occupying the land and industrie they were forced to work.
At the same time, we must deepen the divide between the soldiers of the target nation, sowing suspicion between the pent up soldiers and the gouvernment.

Winter:
Back again with the dwarves, talking politics with our friend any ally, grudge dwarf.
Remember the thieves guild we set up earlier? Now it's their chance to do their part, sabotaging the holdings and food stockpiles with abbandon. This year will end with fireworks.

Phase 3 - Spring:
We should have enough political clout and resources to muster a number of nomad, dwarf and human troops now and we should do this. With the nomads being ready for action, we finally incite the overdue slave rebellion.
When this is going, we must work on the pent up soldiers and convince them that the situation is to be blamed on their leaders and they must rise up in arms against the gouvernment first if the want to get a grip on the whole situation.

Summer:
Finally, war .....

[Flickerdart]

Get some Huns, or maybe Mongols. Magyars will do in a pinch. Really, any power of the "stampeding horsemen of doom" variety.

As for 20 peasants feeding 18 people, that's why most peasants are farmers and not hunter-gatherers.

[JBarca]

@JBarca:

"Downtime" and "Kingdom" are...
I'll take a look. Likely won't be implementing anything new, though. But I am curious.


War.
Oh.


Get some Huns, or maybe Mongols. Magyars will do in a pinch. Really, any power of the "stampeding horsemen of doom" variety.

As for 20 peasants feeding 18 people, that's why most peasants are farmers and not hunter-gatherers.
Well, the "barbarian tribes to the east" are, in fact, loosely based on the Mongols, complete with nomadic tendencies and plenty of horses.

[atemu1234]

I'll take a look. Likely won't be implementing anything new, though. But I am curious.


Oh.


Well, the "barbarian tribes to the east" are, in fact, loosely based on the Mongols, complete with nomadic tendencies and plenty of horses.

True, but they'd be warriors or even barbarians. Most certainly not commoners.

[JBarca]

True, but they'd be warriors or even barbarians. Most certainly not commoners.

That comment was in response to the suggestion of bringing in a nomadic, cavalry-based raiding force, not the "can they feed themselves?" remarks.

[glitterbaby]

Oh my Florian.. That is.. A novel. Thank you for that, I'll definitely have to use it.

I really do like the idea of helping the mongols wreck stuff up. The initial motivation in wanting to crush this nation was because how much my character grew annoyed with the racism and xenophobia. Getting destroyed by fellow humans would really help in that, I'd think.

[Cwymbran-San]

As for weakening the garrisons, an especially dishonorable (but very efficient) tactic is poisoning their water supply. The absence of magic to create water on the fly makes this viable. No need to buy or craft poisons, a bucket of dead animals (rats in particular) in a well could do it.
Also, when targeting their food supply, remember that pigs burn quite well (lots of fat). Set them on fire (tar? pitch? easy to come by) and let them run havoc in the settlements and garrisons you want to take next. Lots of stealth work but better than to face an overwhelming enemy in the open field.

Stick to guerilla, subterfuge and manipulation, hit them where they are weak. The best defence against a smashing blow is not being there when it falls.

[Florian]

@JBarca:

The whole exercise was simply about showcasing how things can be relegated to the background and still be part of actual play, like hiring "Teams", giving them commands via Profession (Soldier) and receiving results later on.

I think the question about seasons'll be clear now, too, as in a more plausible setting they'll dictate what kind of actions are availlable then and there.

@glitterbaby:

Do that and write a campaign diary about it. I would be interested on reading how all worked out.

@Cwymbran-san:

Problem with all that stuff is, that it could be counted as being "evil" actions.

[Cwymbran-San]

[QUOTE=Florian;20140958

@Cwymbran-san:

Problem with all that stuff is, that it could be counted as being "evil" actions.[/QUOTE]

Sure thing, but we were talking about crushing a nation, wreaking havoc with ist stability, taking down soldiers, raiding farms, villages...
When you have decided to do bad things, you might as well do them properly. Waging war is nasty business, no matter which way you do it.

Disclaimer: This is in no way my personal opinion on how people should behave, i am just looking at it from your proposed perspective (Art of War, The Prince, possibly a little von Clausewitz mixed in). Hurting People is bad with a capital B.

Edit: i can simply not make this quoting work properly, my apologies...

[Florian]

Mostly, I prefer Discorsi to The Prince, as the later focus more on stop-gap meassures right now and the former is in for the long haul, with all consequences.

[Âmesang]

What with the passing holiday and all my mind immediately went to Guthrie:

"You want to know if I'm moral enough to join the army, burn women, kids, houses and villages after bein' a litterbug."

[Florian]

What with the passing holiday and all my mind immediately went to Guthrie:

"You want to know if I'm moral enough to join the army, burn women, kids, houses and villages after bein' a litterbug."

Maybe that's because of where I'm from, but I do have high moral prerequisites on professional soldiers. Anyone willing to commit such acts should be in prison, not being part of an army.

[Cwymbran-San]

Maybe that's because of where I'm from, but I do have high moral prerequisites on professional soldiers. Anyone willing to commit such acts should be in prison, not being part of an army.

Well, the objective of each and every war is to impose your will upon your opponent. What is neccessary to achieve this is very subjective, based on your will, the strength of your forces, troop morale and of course the condition of your opponent, his troops etc.pp.

Modern professional soldiers "should" not behave this way, but sadly, this is not always the case. Give a man power and see it corrupt him. A soldier fighting in a foreign country in a war he does not understand feels utterly powerless. Then he realizes, he has a weapon in hand. So he has the ultimate power, the power over life and death. If he already has killed during the fighting, he already knows how it feels like and this might compell him to do it again, depending on his education, his values etc.

Now, in any armed engagement, it is the side that acts "less" humane that is more likely to impose ist will on the opponent since he is willing/able/ready to do things the other side "just won't do".

Is it morally correct to commit those things? A heartfelt, distinctive No. Will it cause your opponent headaches, send shivers down his spine, make him angry and less likely to act rational? Most certainly yes.

War is hell, never forget that.

[Florian]

Allow me to give you another perspective on that. The view you express is heavily biased on things that are happening in our lifetime, meaning regular vs. irregular warfare and that we don't have any good answers to it so far. (I'll come back to this point a bit later, to keep this tangent at least a bit relevant to the original topic)

Both views, von Clausewitz "War is continuation of diplomacy by other means" and your expressed view of imposing your will fail in nearly all types of (armed) conflict we have seen after the end of the Cold War.

That is because we talk about vastly different goals here. Especially in the irregular vs. regular situation, one side has already reached their goal by enforcing their will on the enemy, namely starting the conflict in the first place.

Your proposal borders on meeting the enemy on equal terms or allowing the situation to degrade to a level that equals that. This may be further accentuated by how we tread our soldiers lives, especially in media coverage.

I do not have an answer for that. I can only propose to look at what we expect of police units like SWAT or GSG9, especially on being willing to sacrifize themselves for hostages, and go on from there.
The moment we lose the moral high ground, we have already lost and that has to be averted at all cost, if necessary in lifes.

Now coming back to the topic full circle, it is really easy to throw the moral high ground away, just to expedit reaching ones own goals. Yes, we do know that certain things are effective and simply work, but do we want to lower ourselfs to that level?

[Yahzi]

The country boasts a population of about 200,000 with a standing army at about 70,000. All men 17-45 are in the military and some of the older ones stay.
Who grows the food? In medieval societies at least 75% of the population had to be engaged in food production.

You don't need to do anything to disrupt this nation. They will stave to death in a few days.

EDIT: Argh! How could I have missed that Dire_Stirge said exactly the same thing? :smallredface: Anyway, what he said.

[JBarca]

Who grows the food? In medieval societies at least 75% of the population had to be engaged in food production.

You don't need to do anything to disrupt this nation. They will stave to death in a few days.

EDIT: Argh! How could I have missed that Dire_Stirge said exactly the same thing? :smallredface: Anyway, what he said.

Those population numbers are not accounting for, as I mentioned earlier, slaves. Slaves grow the food. Slaves build things. Slaves create garments, assemble materials for war, gather raw materials, mine, carry goods for trade, etc.

Yes, this means that the enslaved population far outnumbers the free population.

[Cwymbran-San]

Well, in that case...what measures are used to control these vast legions of slaves? Lack of education? That is a point your characters could help with. Educating the masses usually causes them to stir, at least thats what historically happened in many societies (and in fiction as well. Stargate, anyone?).

[JBarca]

Well, in that case...what measures are used to control these vast legions of slaves?

Fear, overwhelming brutality in the face of insurrection, fear, living conditions that aren't actually that bad, fear, protection from outsiders, and fear, primarily.

[Cwymbran-San]

That sounds pretty solid. Should take a great deal of effort do do the slave-uprising move.

What would happen if you removed the ruler of the nation? Will he/she (it?) simply be replaced or is there a level of aristocracy that will fight each other over the throne?

[Florian]

That sounds pretty solid. Should take a great deal of effort do do the slave-uprising move.

I call that a dubious move.

Most of the slaves will be commoners or experts, so basically noncombatants, and only a cold-hearted bastard will count on them beating a regular army by sheer numbers alone. The losses will be horrifying.
Sure, it can be done and it will be effective. But if I was serious about playing one of the good guys here, I wouldn't do it, not without serious backup of a real army.

[Flickerdart]

I call that a dubious move.

Most of the slaves will be commoners or experts, so basically noncombatants, and only a cold-hearted bastard will count on them beating a regular army by sheer numbers alone. The losses will be horrifying.
Sure, it can be done and it will be effective. But if I was serious about playing one of the good guys here, I wouldn't do it, not without serious backup of a real army.
Well, if they fight head-on, of course they'll lose.

Consider Napoleon's experience in Russia - serfs in occupied zones spent most of their time wrecking his supply chain rather than taking up arms in a traditional manner. Bullets stolen, wells poisoned, food spoiled, saddles slashed, messengers killed, bridges burned, officers sniped by hunters from the woods, and so on.

The slaves don't need to lift a single sword to defeat their masters.

[glitterbaby]

I call that a dubious move.

Most of the slaves will be commoners or experts, so basically noncombatants, and only a cold-hearted bastard will count on them beating a regular army by sheer numbers alone. The losses will be horrifying.
Sure, it can be done and it will be effective. But if I was serious about playing one of the good guys here, I wouldn't do it, not without serious backup of a real army.

Oh don't get me wrong we want to end the xenophobia but we're not exactly the good guys. The party consists of a knowledgeable/bard/archer, a man-child sorcerer, a ruthless zhentarim mercenary, a deranged alchemist, and finally my character, the ruthless factotum//monk/swordsage. The archer is rather Good but excuses himself through "bardic neutrality." The sorcerer is naive.

The rest of us? Well the alchemist harvests tongues of fallen enemies because he's running an experiment about how people taste. My character, while combating a terrorist organization that had abducted his sister, would remove their heads from their shoulders after killing them. The organization called themselves the Beardless (they hated dwarves and really anyone that wasn't human, they're a manifestation of everything that's wrong with the country) and so my character wanted to make a myth of himself, "they're going to be the Headless when I'm through with them!" And our merc had us kill the man we hired as a driver because he overheard the rest of the party talking about the torture my character did to get information out of some of the terrorists and he would have got us into legal trouble.

My character probably wouldn't bat an eye at taking a ton of slave casualties if it were the better option. He's all about efficiency.

[Florian]

Well, there is "efficient" and there is " efficient". The difference is between short and long term.
A failed slave revolt will cost some lives but cement the hold that nation has on the slaves even deeper. They propably won't try again because they witnesses what happened the last time.
Using the slave revolt to supplement an invading force, though, is pretty different.

[glitterbaby]

Well, there is "efficient" and there is " efficient". The difference is between short and long term.
A failed slave revolt will cost some lives but cement the hold that nation has on the slaves even deeper. They propably won't try again because they witnesses what happened the last time.
Using the slave revolt to supplement an invading force, though, is pretty different.

Another thought I just had: wouldn't being conquered by a force of not humans only serve to reinforce the anti-nothuman sentiment? Do I really want to get troop support from the dwarven nations?

[Florian]

Another thought I just had: wouldn't being conquered by a force of not humans only serve to reinforce the anti-nothuman sentiment? Do I really want to get troop support from the dwarven nations?

That _is_ a hard one.

Ok, let us go to the deep end here: Notice that, so far, I use a very moral stance on the whole thing. If I really want to eff anything up, promisse stuff, get spirits high and crush them later on, I would use as many racial foreigners as possible and blame the whole stuff on them afterwards.

"Dude, sorry you lost your balls, not our fault, the dwarves blew it..."

[antoin]

Playing in this campaign as the "deranged alchemist" that glitterbaby mentioned. Referring to the water supplies: while a great idea, the capitol is sitting on a river. Any good ways to poison a river? While this is likely impossible, any suggested ways to interfere with this (flooding, trade blockade, mass fish deaths? I dunno), could be a major help to this cause. For what it's worth, my character has outstanding Craft(Alchemy) and (Poisonmaking) skills and is capable of making virtually anything rather quickly, if those would be helpful. While he considers himself a good guy, he has no moral qualms about Poison use if used "for the right reasons." If this helps at all.

[Flickerdart]

You'd need loads of poison to make sure it doesn't get diluted into nothing. A better bet is disease; just park a huge herd of cows upstream and let them work their poopy magic.

[Quertus]

As for 20 peasants feeding 18 people, that's why most peasants are farmers and not hunter-gatherers.

RAW, they could never have survived their (historic) hunter-gatheter period to become farmers. ;) Not could most of the non-farming living creatures in the monster manuals survive RAW.

[Florian]

Playing in this campaign as the "deranged alchemist" that glitterbaby mentioned. Referring to the water supplies: while a great idea, the capitol is sitting on a river. Any good ways to poison a river? While this is likely impossible, any suggested ways to interfere with this (flooding, trade blockade, mass fish deaths? I dunno), could be a major help to this cause. For what it's worth, my character has outstanding Craft(Alchemy) and (Poisonmaking) skills and is capable of making virtually anything rather quickly, if those would be helpful. While he considers himself a good guy, he has no moral qualms about Poison use if used "for the right reasons." If this helps at all.

Time frame and acceptable losses, really.
Stuff like poisoning a well is the solution for a siege situation that needs to be cleared right now.
If you have the time and no moral qualms, you poison the food stockpiles and wait for winter to set in. In both cases, accept that you will hit more people than just your intended targets.

[Flickerdart]

RAW, they could never have survived their (historic) hunter-gatheter period to become farmers. ;) Not could most of the non-farming living creatures in the monster manuals survive RAW.
The Survival DC is only for foraging while moving at half base speed. A hunter-gatherer tribe could stop and forage, and then continue after a few days.

It's also DC 10, so almost everyone would be more than capable of foraging for themselves just by taking 10. And others, in the case of people with Self-Sufficient, Skill Focus (Survival), nonelite/elite Array, Wisdom prodigies, trained animals that know the Hunting skill set, etc.

[stanprollyright]

Time frame and acceptable losses, really.
Stuff like poisoning a well is the solution for a siege situation that needs to be cleared right now.
If you have the time and no moral qualms, you poison the food stockpiles and wait for winter to set in. In both cases, accept that you will hit more people than just your intended targets.

Poisoning/destroying food/water supplies isn't about targeted killing, it's about creating unrest and disrupting the economy. Food shortages will mainly be taken out on the slaves, which will destroy the nation's productivity and give the slaves ample motivation to revolt. Yes, some soldiers will die from disease, and get weakened by severely rationed food, and lose morale, but the real prize is that this creates good motivations for desertion. Food prices go up, which makes crime go up, which gives you cover to perform your terrorist duties while the law enforcement is dealing with all the crime. People stop trusting each other and trusting the government, which puts you in a good position to assume leadership.

[Âmesang]

You'd need loads of poison to make sure it doesn't get diluted into nothing. A better bet is disease; just park a huge herd of cows upstream and let them work their poopy magic.
Makes me wonder how feasible it would be to craft and attack with an army of manure golems.

"It was devastating…"

[Quertus]

Those population numbers are not accounting for, as I mentioned earlier, slaves. Slaves grow the food. Slaves build things. Slaves create garments, assemble materials for war, gather raw materials, mine, carry goods for trade, etc.

Yes, this means that the enslaved population far outnumbers the free population.

The slaves greatly outnumbered the free in Rome. Just don't let the slaves find out, else a large portion of the work force might die off in yet another failed slave rebellion.

Unless, off course, killing off the work force was your objective all along.

[Deadline]

Just to clear some things up. "Low Magic" in this setting is mostly for feel. Spellcasters are rare, magic items are rare, magic is weak. A few concrete changes that will matter for this discussion, I think: spells above 4th level basically don't exist. There are few exceptions, based somewhat closely on Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm). Mind Rape? Probably not in existence at all. There aren't magic marts, either. magic items above CL ~6 or so are considered "artifacts." Ancient relics of bygone days. If you want a magic item, you'll be doing some research to find someone who owns one, then bartering with them. Gold is great and all, but a magic item is all but priceless. It's rare that they're just bought and sold.

Many spells in the Divination school are raised a level (the info gathering ones, primarily (including Detect Magic, Augury, and the like. Divination, the spell, doesn't exist. Calling spells don't exist, except as Incantations. Noncore spells are rare and require permission to access (not likely to matter much; most of the party is Mundane-ish).

Caster Level slows down drastically at 8th level. So people with CL 9+ are incredibly rare. People with 12+ levels are legends; almost nonexistent.

Well, you've got a Sorcerer in the party. Do the spells Fireball and Fly exist in this setting? Because liberal applications of both will be remarkably effective in such a setting.

[glitterbaby]

Well, you've got a Sorcerer in the party. Do the spells Fireball and Fly exist in this setting? Because liberal applications of both will be remarkably effective in such a setting.

They do. The only thing is that these kinds of spells really are overrated in my opinion even in this kind of a setting. Spontaneous were given prepared spell level progression but even at level 5 they have like 3 3rd level spell slots. Three fireballs isn't really going to do a ton. In the next round all the guys drop their swords and shoot the sorc with longbows or something. Even if we only count the auto-hitting natural 20's, the sorcerer is going to drop rather quickly.

Edit: I forgot about Long range, my bad. Fly 600 feet up and then rain hell, got it.

[JBarca]

That sounds pretty solid. Should take a great deal of effort do do the slave-uprising move.

What would happen if you removed the ruler of the nation? Will he/she (it?) simply be replaced or is there a level of aristocracy that will fight each other over the throne?

Quote from the Wiki for this campaign: "government is a autocratic monarchy, supported by an oligarchic senate of 300 men. The throne, along with senate seats, is ostensibly chosen by senatorial election, but in practice the succession is almost uniformly hereditary."

The current "heir" is on campaign in the east, leading two legions against the barbarians.


Referring to the water supplies: while a great idea, the capitol is sitting on a river. Any good ways to poison a river? While this is likely impossible, any suggested ways to interfere with this (flooding, trade blockade, mass fish deaths? I dunno), could be a major help to this cause.

A while back (back when magic wasn't so weak), a Necromancer decided to mess up the city. So he just made a bunch of zombies, ordered them into the river well upstream of the city, and had them hold on to rocks and the like. Several hundred rotting corpses (and at least one or two of those Plague Blights from The Book of Bad Latin and other disease-focused Undead) later, the water was both undrinkable and devoid of fish.


The slaves greatly outnumbered the free in Rome. Just don't let the slaves find out, else a large portion of the work force might die off in yet another failed slave rebellion.

Very true.


Well, you've got a Sorcerer in the party. Do the spells Fireball and Fly exist in this setting? Because liberal applications of both will be remarkably effective in such a setting.

Yes and yes. The party just leveled up to 4, so it'll be a bit before he's got access to them. And they are incredibly powerful spells in this setting, yes. There are, though, in-game reasons that armies are still relevant despite this, though. The reason are currently unknown to the players, I believe, so I'll leave it at that for now.

[frost890]

Great suggestions thus far! The circle magic and undead apocalypse probably won't fit in the low magic setting so we'll probably hold off on that. General consensus then is to not raise an actual army but to lead a terrorist organization of sorts until the country collapses in on itself?

Two points.
First you may not need to have a lot of magic to make people think/fear you do. Look at history/folklore Examples show that if they fear you can do something it will make them act as if you CAN do it.
Second Having an open army does two things. Gives a target for them to attack, but it also gives the people someone to root for. If you can Have a puppet for the Empire to hunt. when they come up empty handed they will look foolish. Have Bards compose ballads of the mistakes. Basically you are going to run a presidential smear campaign.

Now are you trying to take over afterwords? that will determine if/when you step forward to lead the rebel force or not.

[glitterbaby]

Two points.
First you may not need to have a lot of magic to make people think/fear you do. Look at history/folklore Examples show that if they fear you can do something it will make them act as if you CAN do it.
Second Having an open army does two things. Gives a target for them to attack, but it also gives the people someone to root for. If you can Have a puppet for the Empire to hunt. when they come up empty handed they will look foolish. Have Bards compose ballads of the mistakes. Basically you are going to run a presidential smear campaign.

Now are you trying to take over afterwords? that will determine if/when you step forward to lead the rebel force or not.

Ok, makes sense. We're not trying to take over afterwards. My character wants to wipe out the racism but doesn't understand much more than force so he's trying to conquer.

[jok]

Those population numbers are not accounting for, as I mentioned earlier, slaves. Slaves grow the food. Slaves build things. Slaves create garments, assemble materials for war, gather raw materials, mine, carry goods for trade, etc.

Yes, this means that the enslaved population far outnumbers the free population.

Alright this nation sounds more like Sparta. Sparta had a whole people as slaves.
So the go to method here is to incite slave rebellion.

- Build spy netwotk in the slave society
- Hire a few mercenaries outside of country that later train and lead the army
- build hidden weapon caches
- find some culture meme in the slave peoples history or religion you can use as rallying cry
- find an outside power that is willing to supply your rebellion with food and weapons
- try to trick the nation and other outside nation into a war or atleast into a threat of war so thsat the attention is diverted

[Telonius]

Some general thoughts on this...

- This is the most powerful military in the game world, and you're (generally) talking about defeating it militarily. Don't attack the enemy where he's strongest, find out where he's weakest.
- What's the command structure like? Is there a clear line of succession?
- Are there any factions that are unhappy with their place in society?
- What does your victory condition look like? How "crushed" does this nation need to be? Are you trying to crush it for the sake of crushing it, or is there some other nation you'd like to be in ascendance?

[Platymus Pus]

So one of my characters is one of the most intelligent humanoids on the Prime and he's looking to dismantle a nation. The nation in question is a highly militarized country based loosely on the historical Roman Empire. The country boasts a population of about 200,000 with a standing army at about 70,000. All men 17-45 are in the military and some of the older ones stay. They also have their auxiliaries and mercenaries to think of. In and around the country there are about 60,000ish stationed, two legions are abroad.

So how do we raise an army to deal with that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire#Reasons
You don't raise an army to deal with it.

There is always the locate city trick

[Deadline]

Ok, makes sense. We're not trying to take over afterwards. My character wants to wipe out the racism but doesn't understand much more than force so he's trying to conquer.

You ... you know you can't militarily conquer racism, right?

[Demidos]

Sure you can. Incite the barbarians to violently invade till the current government collapses, then have the slaves and your dwarvish allies rise up and defend the empire. As the leader of the only army left standing, you can dictate who gets into power, and make sure to emphasize how valuable the dwarves were in stopping those filthy, vicious barbarians.... :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

You ... you know you can't militarily conquer racism, right?

Not with that attitude you can't.

[Deadline]

Not with that attitude you can't.

Right, what was I thinking. With a military AND a can-do attitude, you can do almost anything!

Except conquer racism. :smalltongue:

[glitterbaby]

Some general thoughts on this...

- This is the most powerful military in the game world, and you're (generally) talking about defeating it militarily. Don't attack the enemy where he's strongest, find out where he's weakest.
- What's the command structure like? Is there a clear line of succession?
- Are there any factions that are unhappy with their place in society?
- What does your victory condition look like? How "crushed" does this nation need to be? Are you trying to crush it for the sake of crushing it, or is there some other nation you'd like to be in ascendance?

I definitely wouldn't call it the most powerful military in the game world. Sure they're highly militarized to the point where the rest of their society wouldn't function without a ton of slaves but they overall population is rather low compared to the rest of the nations.


Quote from the Wiki for this campaign: "government is a autocratic monarchy, supported by an oligarchic senate of 300 men. The throne, along with senate seats, is ostensibly chosen by senatorial election, but in practice the succession is almost uniformly hereditary."

The current "heir" is on campaign in the east, leading two legions against the barbarians.

Quote from Jbarca (the DM of this game) earlier in the thread. And finally, I'm mostly just looking to crush it for the sake of crushing it. Nobody likes the country and most would rather it not exist/be very weak.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire#Reasons
You don't raise an army to deal with it.

There is always the locate city trick

I really like crippling the nation with a lot of suggestions people have offered. As far as the locate city trick, it's a low-magic campaign so that's definitely off the table


You ... you know you can't militarily conquer racism, right?

Oh I know but my character doesn't particularly care.


Sure you can. Incite the barbarians to violently invade till the current government collapses, then have the slaves and your dwarvish allies rise up and defend the empire. As the leader of the only army left standing, you can dictate who gets into power, and make sure to emphasize how valuable the dwarves were in stopping those filthy, vicious barbarians.... :smalltongue:

We'll probably do something like this.


Not with that attitude you can't.

Haha this is exactly how my character would respond