PDA

View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Paladin Sacred Oath of the Dragon



Karma Dragon
2015-11-28, 04:04 AM
For your enjoyment and feedback:

SACRED OATH OF THE DRAGON
Most metallic dragons do not begin interacting with the civilizations of lesser races until they reach adulthood, but a few adepts are granted the privilege of adventuring as wyrmlings. These gifted young dragons are appointed guardians, assigned with guiding, mentoring and protecting them through childhood. These guardians are often Paladins of Bahamut who have taken the Oath of the Dragon. They will sacrifice their very lives in defense of their dragon companions.

Upon taking the oath at 3rd level, the paladin learns to speak Draconic.

TENETS OF THE DRAGON
While mystics of Bahamut are instructed in compassion, peace and atonement with all things, initiates follow a draconic code of honor known as the Ptarian Code, written millennia ago by the gold dragon Ptaris, only a small portion of which is contained below.

Justice above all. Have the courage to act with wise conviction when confronted with evil, tyranny or corruption.
Respect for Righteousness. Conduct yourself with honesty, generosity and compassion at all times and in all matters.
Act with Vigilance. Do not allow the innocent to come to harm due to your actions or inability to act. Protect those entrusted to your care as if their lives are your own.
Correction for the Wicked. Show mercy to your foes when it is wise to do so, but punish those who threaten or harm the virtuous.

OATH OF THE DRAGON SPELLS
Paladin Level Spells
3rd divine favor, sanctuary
5th nystul’s magic aura, warding bond
9th haste, protection from energy
13th death ward, freedom of movement
17th greater restoration, hallow

CHANNEL DIVINITY
At 3rd level, the paladin gains the following two Channel Divinity options.

Draconic Fury. When the paladin hits a creature with a melee weapon attack, the paladin may choose to make that attack a critical hit.

Draconic Visage. As an action, the paladin channels a powerful draconic presence. Each creature of the paladin’s choice within 30 feet must make a Wisdom saving throw if it can see the paladin. On a failed save, the target is frightened of the paladin for 1 minute. If a creature frightened by this effect ends its turn more than 30 feet away from the paladin, it can attempt another Wisdom saving throw to end the effect on it.

DRAGON COMPANION
At 7th level, the paladin gains a celestial metallic wyrmling companion of the paladin’s (and DM's) choice. Through the Find Steed spell, the paladin completes the ritual that summons and bonds them to their dragon companion. The wyrmling’s alignment must be within one step of the paladin’s alignment. The dragon companion is considered an NPC and may be played by the player or dungeon master as the situation dictates.

The dragon companion has all the statistics and abilities of a metallic wyrmling with the following exceptions:

The dragon companion uses the paladin’s proficiency bonus instead of its own.

The dragon companion’s hit point maximum equals its normal maximum or five times the paladin’s level, whichever is higher.

The dragon companion gains the ability to Change Shape 1 time per day and may magically polymorph into any beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own and a size of medium or smaller that the dragon has seen at least once. In the new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points, Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as this action. The dragon companion adds the paladin’s proficiency bonus to the armor class of the new form. The dragon may revert back into its true form without expending a daily use of this action. It reverts to its true form if it dies. Any equipment it is wearing or carrying is absorbed or borne by the new form (the dragon’s choice). A dragon companion will almost always be found polymorphed into a beast, especially in populated areas, to avoid attracting any unwanted attention. Dragon companions start play knowing one tiny beast form.

The dragon companion speaks Common and Draconic.

The dragon companion does not possess a lair or lair actions.

Dragon companions are innate spellcasters. The dragon can innately cast a number of spells equal to its Charisma modifier. Each spell can be cast once per day, requiring no material components, and the spell’s level can be no higher than one-third the dragon’s challenge rating (rounded down). If a dragon chooses a cantrip as one or more of its spells, it may cast this spell at will, using the dragon’s challenge rating for spell level. The dragon’s bonus to hit with spell attacks is equal to the paladin’s proficiency bonus + its Charisma modifier. The dragon’s spell save DC equals 8 + the paladin’s proficiency bonus + its Charisma modifier. A dragon companion may not cast spells with somatic components while polymorphed in beast form, but it may cast spells with verbal and material components (which are ignored).

While the dragon is within 1 mile of the paladin, the paladin and dragon can communicate telepathically.

The paladin and their dragon have an instinctive bond that allows them to fight as a seamless unit. They both act independently and simultaneously on the paladin’s initiative roll. If the dragon is within 10 feet of the paladin, any spell the paladin casts that targets only the paladin may also target their dragon companion as well. At 18th level this range extends to 30 feet.

As long as the paladin has a dragon companion, the paladin may not use the Find Steed spell to summon a celestial mount. Instead, if the paladin and their dragon become separated by any distance or even by planes of existence, the Find Steed spell may be cast to summon the dragon companion to the paladin’s location.

The paladin’s dragon companion may not be dismissed. If a paladin’s dragon companion is ever dismissed or killed, the paladin is stripped of their Sacred Oath powers. If the paladin’s alignment changes and is no longer within one step of the dragon, the dragon abandons the paladin, and the paladin is stripped of their Sacred Oath powers. The paladin must seek atonement and choose a different Sacred Oath similar to becoming an Oathbreaker. If the dragon ever dies due to a conscious decision or evil action the paladin takes, the paladin becomes an Oathbreaker. In any case, the paladin may never again take the Oath of the Dragon short of Divine Intervention by Bahamut.

DRACONIC MIGHT
At 15th level, the paladin and his dragon companion, if it is within 10 feet of the paladin, gain additional divine power. Whenever the paladin or dragon hit a creature with a melee attack, the creature takes an extra 1d8 radiant damage. This damage is in addition to the damage from Improved Divine Smite. If the paladin also uses Divine Smite with an attack, the paladin adds this damage to the extra damage of the Divine Smite. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.

DRAGON MOUNT
At 20th level, the paladin’s dragon companion matures to a Young Dragon, gaining all the associated statistics including Hit Dice, large size, multiattack, skills and hit points.

The dragon companion may now use Change Shape 3 times per day and may magically polymorph into any beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own and a size of large or smaller.

The dragon companion may select new innate spells based on its new Charisma and challenge rating.

Karma Dragon
2015-11-28, 04:19 AM
Thanks so much for the feedback. First and foremost, my intention was to design a great roleplaying tool for Paladins that want a baby dragon cohort to raise to a young dragon mount. Here's an explanation of my thinking when designing this oath.


-The Tenets are bland. It's basically an abridged Oath of Devotion. Why are there no rules of conduct regarding how these paladins interact with dragons? How are they supposed to treat metallic, how chromatic dragons? What kind of relationship should they have with their draconic companions? Are they supposed to teach them, show them the world etc.?

When writing the tenets I decided to write something that would apply to paladins of Bahamut in general, which would include Devotion and even Vengeance Paladins as well. I wanted to avoid any direct references to evil dragons or Tiamat as I feel directly referring to another god in your own tenets to be tacky (maybe Vengeance Paladins would have an extra tenet about slaying chromatic dragons).

The tenet that applies specifically to the Oath of the Dragon is: Protect those entrusted to your care as if their lives are your own. And the lessons you would be teaching your young dragon are this tenet along with all of the others.


-Draconic Fury is too powerful. This is an extremely powerful nova-ability, even if it is only once per short rest, doubling the already high damage a Paladin can get from Smite. To compare, there are no other paladin oaths that get anything like this, not even the single target damage-focused Oath of Vengeance. The closest thing any class gets is the Assassin's 3rd level ability, but even that only works if the enemy is surprised. Maybe replace it with a flat damage bonus for 1 minute?

I was trying to do something different, yet similar, to Devotion and Vengeance Paladins here.

Devotion Paladins receive a +5 bonus on all attacks over the course of 1 minute. This means they will hit about 50% more of the time over 10-20 attacks. Over the course of a 10 round fight the paladin will hit between 2.5 and 5 more times per combat, depending on their level. As a penalty, they aren't able to attack the first round, so this makes the net bonus more like 1.5 to 3 more attacks hitting over a 10 round combat. I personally believe Sacred Weapon should be a bonus action or shouldn't cost an action similar to Vengeance Paladins Vow of Enmity.

Vengeance Paladins receive an advantage on attack rolls against a single opponent along with possible free movement and reaction attacks against that opponent every time the creature attacks the Paladin. This means they are going to hit 35% more of the time over 10 rounds with potential extra attacks as well. So that's somewhere between 2 and 3 additional attacks that hit, plus a potential for 10 additional attacks at higher levels (all with advantage). There is no action penalty here, so the bonus ends up being 2 to 7 additional attacks that hit. The crit rate is also doubled, so chances are over a 10 round fight the paladin will crit one additional time as well.

I went with the crit precisely because of the similarity with which Paladins and Assassins deal extra damage using dice. In the case of an Assassin you need surprise. In the case of a Paladin you need spell slots to deal extra dice in damage. So in between short rests an Assassin may be able to execute multiple surprise critical attacks or none at all depending on the encounters, while a Dragon Paladin will have one. The advantage Assassins have is they are able to keep dealing massive damage while a Paladin runs out of spell slots very quickly and need a long rest to replenish.

This does front load the damage a bit more for Dragon Paladins over their counterparts. It's essentially a less effective extra attack that hits. It doesn't put quite the strain on the Paladin's resources because it combines the damage into one attack. But the longer a fight goes, the more effective Devotion and Vengeance Paladins become, probably overtaking the Dragon Paladin in damage within two to six rounds of combat.


-Draconic Visage might be too versatile. This one, I am not too sure about. All of the other turning abilities Paladins get affect either only specific types of creatures or only one creature at once. However, this one does not prevent the affected creature from attacking and taking normal actions, and does allow another will save once out of range, so it might be perfectly fine. Personally, I don't think it's bad, but I thought I should bring it up.

This is simply the Oathbreaker Dreadful Aspect reskinned. While Draconic Fury is better against a single target, this ability is more effective against large mobs of creatures. The Oathbreaker Paladin was actually where I started with this build as they are essentially a pet class as well (although much more powerful in my mind). Draconic Might is essentially Aura of Hate reskinned as well.


-Draconic Companion is broken. So broken. It's basically like having a second character to play with, or at the very least a constant summon that you never need to spend a spell slot on. Its HP and proficiency bonus scale with level, so it stays relevant for a long time. Heck, the Paladin can freely cast Haste or any other buffing spell on himself and essentially double its power by sharing it with his companion. And then it gets some spells, too. It's like pact of the chain on steroids. Nothing that any other Oath gets at this level can even compare.

You have a CR1 to CR3 baby dragon that you cannot leave at home or dismiss and cannot allow to die, ever, or you have to pick a new oath. So firstly, the DM can modulate the power of the companion by choosing which kind of baby metallic dragon the Paladin receives (depending on how effective they are relative to the rest of their party, the choice isn't made until 7th level). Secondly, if at any time the DM feels the wyrmling is too powerful all they need to do is kill the wyrmling and the problem is solved. The more time the Paladin allows their wyrmling to spend in dragon form the more it should become the focus of attacks.

The more people that know you are traveling with a wyrmling the worse off you should be. Evil warlocks or necromancers or whoever may attempt to kidnap and perform all kinds of horrible rites on your poor baby dragon companion. The point being, while adventuring the dragon should be spending almost all of its time in beast form under the protection of a Nystul's Magic Aura to disguise its true nature.


You probably tried to avoid the problem that the Beastmaster has, namely that its companion feels pretty much like a robot because it needs to be controlled on every turn. However, I think that you went way too far in the other direction and made the wyrmling too useful. The only real balancing factor is that, if the wyrmling dies, the paladin is stripped of all his powers and may never regain them. But that only makes the Oath even more broken, since it doesn't reduce the effectiveness of the feature at all, and means that the character's concept might get completely screwed over by a succession of bad rolls at any given moment.

Beastmaster sucks. It's a constant meme I see throughout the boards, so I don't feel the need to address it. That being said, a Ranger's pet is more powerful than the baby dragon once they have bestial fury at 11th level. Also, if the Ranger pet dies they can go for a walk in the woods and find a new one.

The big thing I think you guys are missing here is that a medium sized wyrmling replaces the Paladin's Celestial Steed. So no more Mounted Combat (which is the best way to protect your fragile steed), but then again you don't have to worry about your steed dying. All the Celestial Steed really is is a 2nd level spell slot and nothing more. You'll burn way more spell slots than that (along with combat actions) trying to keep your baby dragon alive with spells like Warding Bond, Death Ward, Protection From Elements, Protection From Evil, Magic Aura and Sanctuary along with all of the extra healing you will be dumping into your companion to keep their health topped off.

The Paladin should be more than prepared for a succession of bad rolls. That's the whole point! Protecting this baby dragon is the Paladin's weak spot and the DM should exploit it if they feel the companion is too powerful or spending too much time in dragon form.

The reward for all this is that at 20th level the paladin has a pretty cool Young Dragon mount to fly around on, and if you think that is overpowered then I refer you to Dread Lord (7d10+5 psychic damage each turn plus opponent disadvantage on attack rolls plus a powerful undead minion plus a fiendish steed), Meteor Shower (40d6 damage over a city block one mile away), and Shapechange (Ancient Brass Dragon, Ancient White Dragon, Pit Fiend, Balor, Adult Gold Dragon, or Adult Red Dragon anyone?).

JNAProductions
2015-11-28, 01:04 PM
Right. This is pretty overpowered, even ignoring the companion.

You probably want to work on this.

Theoboldi
2015-11-28, 04:49 PM
I do agree with JNA on this being pretty overpowered, to the point of being broken. Here's a few criticisms I wrote up while skimming over the text. Hope that they're helpful.

-The Tenets are bland. It's basically an abridged Oath of Devotion. Why are there no rules of conduct regarding how these paladins interact with dragons? How are they supposed to treat metallic, how chromatic dragons? What kind of relationship should they have with their draconic companions? Are they supposed to teach them, show them the world etc.?

-Draconic Fury is too powerful. This is an extremely powerful nova-ability, even if it is only once per short rest, doubling the already high damage a Paladin can get from Smite. To compare, there are no other paladin oaths that get anything like this, not even the single target damage-focused Oath of Vengeance. The closest thing any class gets is the Assassin's 3rd level ability, but even that only works if the enemy is surprised. Maybe replace it with a flat damage bonus for 1 minute?

-Draconic Visage might be too versatile. This one, I am not too sure about. All of the other turning abilities Paladins get affect either only specific types of creatures or only one creature at once. However, this one does not prevent the affected creature from attacking and taking normal actions, and does allow another will save once out of range, so it might be perfectly fine. Personally, I don't think it's bad, but I thought I should bring it up.

-Draconic Companion is broken. So broken. It's basically like having a second character to play with, or at the very least a constant summon that you never need to spend a spell slot on. Its HP and proficiency bonus scale with level, so it stays relevant for a long time. Heck, the Paladin can freely cast Haste or any other buffing spell on himself and essentially double its power by sharing it with his companion. And then it gets some spells, too. It's like pact of the chain on steroids. Nothing that any other Oath gets at this level can even compare.

You probably tried to avoid the problem that the Beastmaster has, namely that its companion feels pretty much like a robot because it needs to be controlled on every turn. However, I think that you went way too far in the other direction and made the wyrmling too useful. The only real balancing factor is that, if the wyrmling dies, the paladin is stripped of all his powers and may never regain them. But that only makes the Oath even more broken, since it doesn't reduce the effectiveness of the feature at all, and means that the character's concept might get completely screwed over by a succession of bad rolls at any given moment.

I'm not quite sure how to fix it, really. Maybe you could try to rework the companion into working more like a steed, but with some additional bonuses? Dragon-riding seems like a pretty fitting thing for this oath.

Foxhound438
2015-11-28, 10:53 PM
Draconic Fury. When the paladin hits a creature with a melee weapon attack, the paladin may choose to make that attack a critical hit.


nice try, we all know auto critting with a paladin is op. maybe require you to use it before rolling and still need to roll 17ish or higher to crit would be balanced, and cost a bonus action to boot.

the dragon companion is straight broken, don't even pretend to think summoning a beefed up cr3 with free actions is balanced.

Karma Dragon
2015-12-02, 08:29 AM
nice try, we all know auto critting with a paladin is op. maybe require you to use it before rolling and still need to roll 17ish or higher to crit would be balanced, and cost a bonus action to boot.

the dragon companion is straight broken, don't even pretend to think summoning a beefed up cr3 with free actions is balanced.

A Vengeance Paladin with Mounted Combatant on their Celestial Warhorse is more powerful than this combination.

Arkhios
2015-12-02, 09:43 AM
A Vengeance Paladin with Mounted Combat on their Celestial Steed is more powerful than this combination.

Are you honestly saying, that it's okay to have incredibly strong mount from a single class feature that is somewhat comparable to a combination of Oath feature+feat+spell? In general, an extremely exceptional case isn't by any means good starting point for a class design.

Flashy
2015-12-02, 10:27 PM
A Vengeance Paladin with Mounted Combat on their Celestial Steed is more powerful than this combination.

How? Genuinely, what can a Vengeance Paladin with Mounted Combatant do that a halfling Dragon Paladin with Mounted Combatant can't do infinitely better?

Especially since the normal Find Steed mount doesn't scale any of its stats to the Paladin's level, while this creature gains scaling HP, AC, and gets a ton of shiny new abilities including it's own independent spellcasting.

Durazno
2015-12-04, 03:55 AM
When writing the tenets I decided to write something that would apply to paladins of Bahamut in general, which would include Devotion and even Vengeance Paladins as well. I wanted to avoid any direct references to evil dragons or Tiamat as I feel directly referring to another god in your own tenets to be tacky (maybe Vengeance Paladins would have an extra tenet about slaying chromatic dragons).

The tenet that applies specifically to the Oath of the Dragon is: Protect those entrusted to your care as if their lives are your own. And the lessons you would be teaching your young dragon are this tenet along with all of the others.

I'd recommend having some more specific tenets just because a given player is taking this Oath instead of Vengeance, Ancients or Devotion, so it doesn't have to encompass them. A Paladin of Bahamut could definitely take one of the other oaths, but a Paladin of Bahamut taking the Oath of the Dragon should be distinct from any of them.

Karma Dragon
2015-12-05, 03:21 AM
Are you honestly saying, that it's okay to have incredibly strong mount from a single class feature that is somewhat comparable to a combination of Oath feature+feat+spell? In general, an extremely exceptional case isn't by any means good starting point for a class design.

Extremely exceptional? What? Any paladin that isn't using Find Steed with Mounted Combatant isn't playing the class as effectively as they could be.

Oath Feature: Vengeance is the best comparison as the other two Oaths offer more defensive auras for the party and staying power for the paladin.

Feat: If smite is the bread of paladins then Mounted Combatant with Find Steed is the butter. It's a fire and forget 2nd level spell that gives you an expendable mount to charge in on. Medium sized dragon paladins won't be able to use Mounted Combatant until level 20, but they will still take the feat if they want Dragon Mount to pay off.

Spell: You'll need to devote quite a bit more spell resources to keeping your wyrmling alive than a 2nd level spell. Sanctuary, Warding Bond, Death Ward would all be required spell resources for a Dragon Pally. You'll still want Find Steed on your spell list as well in case your baby dragon gets lost. The celestial mount created by Find Steed is permanent until it is dismissed or dies.


How? Genuinely, what can a Vengeance Paladin with Mounted Combatant do that a halfling Dragon Paladin with Mounted Combatant can't do infinitely better?

Especially since the normal Find Steed mount doesn't scale any of its stats to the Paladin's level, while this creature gains scaling HP, AC, and gets a ton of shiny new abilities including it's own independent spellcasting.

Infinitely better? I think you're overestimating the power of wyrmlings.

The extra health and AC is there because you have to keep this baby dragon alive through thick and thin. It is the paladin's weak spot in what otherwise is a very durable frontliner class. It isn't an expendable 2nd level spell slot like Find Steed.

The dragon mount could be CR 1, 2 or 3. I would suggest limiting the mount to CR 1 if you feel it is too powerful. Spellcasting ability would be limited to between 1 cantrip and 3 1st level spells all the way up until level 20. Is that really going to break your game? No, of course not. Compare the metallic wyrmlings to a warhorse or lion or whatever your paladin would be riding around on otherwise and you'll find the gap is not infinite, it's rather small.

At level 7 the DM can gauge the effectiveness of the paladin to the rest of the party and decide which mount they receive. Afterwards, if the DM feels the dragon is too powerful, kill it. Oath done. Problem solved.


I'd recommend having some more specific tenets just because a given player is taking this Oath instead of Vengeance, Ancients or Devotion, so it doesn't have to encompass them. A Paladin of Bahamut could definitely take one of the other oaths, but a Paladin of Bahamut taking the Oath of the Dragon should be distinct from any of them.

I'm open to suggestions on more specific oaths. I wrote these tenets for roleplaying a paladin of Bahamut, but they are lessons to teach your young dragon through the power of example. I feel the tenets represent the motivations of good dragonkind quite well. Keeping your dragon alive is the ultimate responsibility of any dragon paladin of course, but I didn't want to codify an oath that put dragons above the lesser races. Therefore, the oath is simply implied within the text.

The Oath of the Dragon only works for good dragons because they are the only dragons that shapechange and interact with human societies in 5E. The evil dragons just stay in dragon form and lair up I suppose.

Arkhios
2015-12-05, 06:10 AM
Extremely exceptional? What? Any paladin that isn't using Find Steed with Mounted Combatant isn't playing the class as effectively as they could be.

Explain me one thing. Where does it say, that a paladin must be a single-minded mounted specialist? It's an odd statement that it would be somewhat mandatory path for a paladin, to take up on a mount.

You missed my point. With extremely exceptional I tried to emphasize the thing, that even for a Vengeance paladin they must invest a lot of resources to accomplish this course of career, but a Dragon paladin would get it all for free, for a relatively equal effectiveness. When a Dragon paladin would also take the feat, he would outshine the vengeance paladin by a mile. THAT's the problem, it's not balanced when compared to the other options. Sub-classes should be comparable with each other, not one outshining the others.

Another issue is on more personal preference level:
While I agree that min-max ideology is sometimes fun, I disagree with the idea that EVERYONE should follow it.

Karma Dragon
2015-12-05, 09:07 AM
Explain me one thing. Where does it say, that a paladin must be a single-minded mounted specialist? It's an odd statement that it would be somewhat mandatory path for a paladin, to take up on a mount.

You missed my point. With extremely exceptional I tried to emphasize the thing, that even for a Vengeance paladin they must invest a lot of resources to accomplish this course of career, but a Dragon paladin would get it all for free, for a relatively equal effectiveness. When a Dragon paladin would also take the feat, he would outshine the vengeance paladin by a mile. THAT's the problem, it's not balanced when compared to the other options. Sub-classes should be comparable with each other, not one outshining the others.

Another issue is on more personal preference level:
While I agree that min-max ideology is sometimes fun, I disagree with the idea that EVERYONE should follow it.

The point is that the dragon replaces the paladin's Celestial Mount obtained through Find Steed. So if you're comparing a paladin without Find Steed to this oath then you aren't making a fair comparison. What are you talking about investing a lot of resources? We're talking about one feat that most paladins take anyway and a 2nd level spell that summons a permanent mount until it dies. Dragon paladins don't get Mounted Combatant for free and they'll keep Find Steed on their spell list in case their mount gets lost. In fact, medium sized paladins don't even have a mount until 20th level as a result of this oath.

If the dragons aren't maintaining their disguises as owls or eagles or chipmunks or wolves or whatever form they decide to take then they will be drawing a lot of attention to themselves, much of it unwanted. The DM should keep this in mind.

JNAProductions
2015-12-05, 10:17 AM
You asked for feedback. You'd do well to not just ignore it.

Amnoriath
2015-12-05, 08:16 PM
There are many reasons why you are getting so much flack for this oath, however to make a list will make it seem too clinical. First of all as others have said an out right critical on a paladin is an encounter-ender. Heck, just make it a Paladin dip and add Rogue it is even worse.
Your Draconic Companion feature might as well just be a better Beastmaster in every way possible. At least the Find Steed spell didn't scale and doesn't have increased action plus all of the other perks. It is also overtly complicated you have more text on that feature than the PHB devotes to some of its entire base class features. Dragons aren't spell casters any more why does it casting? Finally the "balancing" feature of this is that it is lynch pin to all of your Paladin's features making it one of the most punitive and arbitrary tenets in the game.
Draconic Might makes a really good feature even nastier making it a Cleric feature every time you make a hit which was designed to replace an Extra Attack.
Finally what I think really gets under people's skin here is that it isn't even all that draconic. Your spells look like a regular Paladin's for the most part and you rely off a buddy to be the dragon. It isn't just a matter of pruning and simplicity it is a matter of starting from square 1.

Karma Dragon
2015-12-05, 10:31 PM
Thanks for all the wonderful feedback!

Karma Dragon
2017-04-10, 06:07 AM
You asked for feedback. You'd do well to not just ignore it.

I haven't ignored it. I addressed it. Bump.

JNAProductions
2017-04-10, 09:10 AM
Draconic Fury is still way too powerful.

Draconic Visage is also quite powerful, but not necessarily TOO powerful.

Dragon Companion is far too powerful-you get a very powerful NPC ally who gets a decent chunk of spellcasting. In addition, you technically have no restrictions on what the dragon can cast-I'm sure it's not your intention to let them cast Wish Charisma modifier times per day, but that's what's written. Clarify that, please.

Draconic Might is hella good. Assuming the dragon has two attacks, you're looking at +4d8 (18) damage if all attacks hit. That's really good. In addition, auras are supposed to help the party-this doesn't.

The capstone goes against what Paladins get for capstones. Every other Paladin gets a one minute beast mode transformation. You get a permanent boost, and not an insignificant one either.

Overall, it's still way too powerful-especially Draconic Fury and Dragon Companion.

Mr.J
2017-04-10, 01:22 PM
While people have beat it into the ground already stating it is too powerful, I feel like with a few shifts it could be balanced. However, what would the Paladin lose in an effort to have the dragon pet? Would the Paladin have to have a God whom was akin to a dragon or? How would people view you having a dragon when you go around on your adventuring? Does the pet dragon have intelligence as most dragons do, and if so can it leave you?

Karma Dragon
2019-02-03, 05:33 AM
You asked for feedback. You'd do well to not just ignore it.

I’m sorry. Has any of your feedback been ignored? I feel like I’ve addressed the feedback appropriately with well thought out feedback of my own. I thought this was a board for discussion.

Karma Dragon
2019-02-03, 05:40 AM
While people have beat it into the ground already stating it is too powerful, I feel like with a few shifts it could be balanced. However, what would the Paladin lose in an effort to have the dragon pet? Would the Paladin have to have a God whom was akin to a dragon or? How would people view you having a dragon when you go around on your adventuring? Does the pet dragon have intelligence as most dragons do, and if so can it leave you?

I think people tend to overreact when they see the word Dragon. The Paladin would give up having a Celestial Mount with the Find Steed spell. Protecting their fragile wyrmling would be their primary concern. Bahamut is the deity. Dragon cohorts are almost always found in beast form under the protection of a Nystul’s Magic Aura to protect their true identity. Yes, the dragon is intelligent and if it witnesses the paladin acting outside of a good alignment it could decide to leave. All of this is already addressed in the class description.

Karma Dragon
2019-02-03, 06:25 AM
Dragon Companion is far too powerful-you get a very powerful NPC ally who gets a decent chunk of spellcasting. In addition, you technically have no restrictions on what the dragon can cast-I'm sure it's not your intention to let them cast Wish Charisma modifier times per day, but that's what's written. Clarify that, please.

Dragon Companions May cast spells 1/3 their CR as stated in the description. This is the same as what variant spell caster dragons receive.

If you still feel this is too powerful then I would suggest removing the spell casting feature since it is based on a variant rule and limiting the wyrmling to CR 1.

I think you’ll find the amount of spell resources the paladin must devote to his companion will quickly overshadow the perceived power of the class.

Protecting a CR 1 companion from dying through level 20 is a very challenging task. The reward is a dragon mount. Will a young dragon mount overshadow meteor showers and shapechanged pit fiends on the battlefield? I doubt that very much.

The entire purpose of this homebrew class was to provide a path within the rule set to allow a paladin to obtain a dragon cohort. Removing the dragon companion from the equation defeats the entire point of the exercise.

Thanks again for the feedback.

JNAProductions
2019-02-03, 12:27 PM
Dragon Companions May cast spells 1/3 their CR as stated in the description. This is the same as what variant spell caster dragons receive.

If you still feel this is too powerful then I would suggest removing the spell casting feature since it is based on a variant rule and limiting the wyrmling to CR 1.

I think you’ll find the amount of spell resources the paladin must devote to his companion will quickly overshadow the perceived power of the class.

Protecting a CR 1 companion from dying through level 20 is a very challenging task. The reward is a dragon mount. Will a young dragon mount overshadow meteor showers and shapechanged pit fiends on the battlefield? I doubt that very much.

The entire purpose of this homebrew class was to provide a path within the rule set to allow a paladin to obtain a dragon cohort. Removing the dragon companion from the equation defeats the entire point of the exercise.

Thanks again for the feedback.

That's bad balance. If a class is weaker than others for a certain period, and more powerful later... That's not good balance.

First off, it relies on a campaign actually going from 1-20 (in the most extreme cases), completely ignoring campaigns that end at level 5 or start at level 17.
Second off, it doesn't feel good. If I'm playing a class that's WORSE than others, for a promise that later it'll be better... I won't have as much fun if I was playing a balanced class. And then later, when it IS more powerful, it's not fun for everyone else, who are relatively weaker now.

In addition, you've left in the "turn a melee weapon hit into a crit". That is a HUGE balance issue. It's stupidly powerful on a Paladin.

At level three, when you get it, you can turn a hit from doing (assuming S&B) 1d8+3+2d8+2d6 or 23.5 on average, to a crit for 44 damage.
At level eleven, when you get Improved Divine Smite, you can go from 1d8+5+1d8+4d8+3d8 or 45.5, to a crit of 86 damage.
At level fifteen, when you get +1d8 damage because Dragon, you can go from 1d8+5+1d8+1d8+5d8+4d6, or 55, to a whopping 105 damage.

This is basically guaranteed, and better than what any other Paladin can do, because Smite Spells are expended on the FIRST hit. Which is not guaranteed to be a crit-except here.