Trying to make a blue dragon from the ground up

[dantiesilva]

Hello I am in the middle of making a campaign world in which their is an adult blue dragon. However I didn't want your standard blue dragon, I instead wanted to get my hands dirty and breath life into it myself. However when I began I thought looking through the monster manual or Draconomicon would give details on when they gain what abilities, how much damage their attacks deal. However I couldn't for the life of me find it. However I know someone has had to have made a dragon before for their game, whether a mover like my own who controls a group of loyal desert half orcs, bluespawn godslayers, and the other bluespawn creatures at his disposal.

I found that a blue dragon starts off as tiny, and as such began rolling stats for him (his name is Kotharulhar "Blue demon") and rolled rather well (14,15,17,14,10,15). However when I went to look and see say what determined the DC of a dragons breath weapon I wasn't able to find it. Nor even the damage a tiny blue dragons claws and bite attack would deal so this made me think of coming to the forums for help in finding out either where I might find this information, or what it actually is. All the books told me is that at each age category how much the breath weapon dealt, their natural armor, movements, and how much HD it took to advance to the next age category. It didn't however say how much damage a creature of that sizes weapons dealt, when it gained a tail attack, or wing attack, or how much those numbers did. If anyone could please help me find this, and if you even have suggestions on how to make him I am more then happy to listen.

I plan on making him more focused on his natural abilities however more so then metabreath feats, so things like Multi attack, Improved multi attack, shockwave, Rend, Tail sweep knockdown, Wingstorm. I would say snatch, but well plucking pcs up from the ground, flying up in the sky and dropping them doesn't sound very nice.

Thank you for taking your time to look at this and any advice you can give me is appreciated. Thank you.

[KillianHawkeye]

Blue dragons are not ever Tiny. Wyrmlings (the youngest age) are Small size. The 3.5 Monster Manual has all the information about natural weapon damage at various sizes and breath weapon DCs, but it's put in a general section at the beginning of the Dragon creature's entries before it gets into the differences between the different colors. See the tables on page 69.

For a wyrmling Blue Dragon, it deals a d4 with both claws and a d6 with its bite. It's not yet large enough to use its other limbs to attack. The DC for the breath weapon is Constitution-based, meaning the formula is 10 + 1/2 the HD + Con bonus. That gives it a DC of 14 by default, but that could be higher if it's given an improved Constitution score.

However, if it is going to be an adult dragon, you don't really need to start with those stats in order to "build it up" to a later stage, just modify the stats of the adult Blue Dragon from the get go.

[DrMotives]

The place to look is at both the blue dragon entry itself in the MM, which mentions what age catagories they hit what sizes, and also compare that to the true dragon entry listed before the individual dragon types. That will give you traits common to all true dragons, including what sizes the natural weapons come on-line and how much damage they do (before strength mods).

[Âmesang]

Not sure if this'll help (I can't even remember if this is up-to-date), but they're some stats I put together for a fully advanced young adult Large blue dragon (20HD, I think?), only because the only dragon figurine I own is of a 10'×10' "Large blue dragon." It's also primarily (if not entirely) core-built mostly out of laziness:

https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/dnd/3e%20dragon%20blue.doc

[Crake]

It's worth noting that using stats at or above the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) entails a +1 CR increase. If you want some variation between your dragon and a "normal" one (i put that in inverted commas because there's not really such thing as "normal" for a dragon, they don't even come with stock feats or skills, that's all on the DM to decide, so pretty much every dragon is unique), then use the variant commoner array of 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8. Gives the dragon some better and worse abilities compared to the average, but doesn't mess with the CR. If you roll the stats, then you may as well at that point give the dragon a class level because the CR increase is +1 either way (and a PC class level comes with free elite array).

[dantiesilva]

Thank you everyone for your help, I can't believe I didn't think to look there, espically after playing a devil summoner and always running back to the devil block at the beginning. Just so everyone can see what I have so far.

Kotharulhar (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=633823) has 12HD at the moment, not exactly where I want him to be just yet, however he is slowly getting there. What I like most is that he has 6 attacks a turn at the moment making him able to combat a group of PCs rather well giving a standard 6 person party each an attack so long as they are within range, because well 6 attacks on the tank might hurt a bit. I also gave him max hp, because he is one of the main villains of the game, and while he is not directly going after the PC's in my world (unless they interfere with him stealing lot) it is still rather good to plan in advance I have learned. If anyone has any comments on his build so far please let me know what you think.

[Âmesang]

Depending on how much you want to %&#$ over your players simply having the dragon drop down into melee with a claw/claw/bite/tail slap might not be the best way to go; it may be considered boring, but few things could frustrate the party more (and get them to really think on their toes) than to simply have the dragon circle strafe (http://player.screenwavemedia.com/play/player.php?id=Spoony-6607) them in the air and blast them with his lightning breath every chance he got, using his few spells in between rounds.

Even with those juicy natural attacks and natural armor, a dragon in melee can go down with surprising ease. The above strategy might be especially true for blue dragons who are known for using the skyline to Hide against.


I would say snatch, but well plucking pcs up from the ground, flying up in the sky and dropping them doesn't sound very nice.

He's EVIL!! :smalltongue: That's exactly what a flying creature would do! Ever see Jurassic World? (Wish I hadn't…)

[Surpriser]

What I like most is that he has 6 attacks a turn at the moment making him able to combat a group of PCs rather well giving a standard 6 person party each an attack so long as they are within range, because well 6 attacks on the tank might hurt a bit.

He is an EVIL DRAGON VILLAIN - every single one of these words should be enough excuse to (ab)use every dirty trick available. Land directly one the smallest/weakest party member and proceed to tear them to shreds one by one. 6 attacks on the tank? Why? 6 attacks on the unarmored caster or the pesky rogue are much more fun!
If you have the chance to take out a PC by any means, do it. Well, as long as the PCs would have had a chance to prevent it by preparation, tactics or not trying to fight something out of their league, that is...
Your players will talk about the moderately challenging, fair-fighting dragon for a session maybe, but will never forget the vicious monster that terrorized them.
In my opinion, a weaker enemy with good tactics is a lot more memorable than a beefed up monster trading hits with the tank.


[...] circle strafe (http://player.screenwavemedia.com/play/player.php?id=Spoony-6607) them in the air [...]
A fullscreen video without pausing, scrolling, volume control,... :yuk:

[dantiesilva]

I actually planned on using the Draconomicon variants, along with the Wyrm of war archetype from Dragons of Ebberon to offset the melee problem slightly. This would allow him to in essence get at 12HD alone to gain an extra 3 feats he could use to close up some of the larger weaknesses, while also giving him the ability to wear armor should he so choose. And while in his cave he would be to proud to wear his armor unless he knew the enemies were coming for him, he would wear it outside his lair if he expected to be away awhile and cause trouble. Or was hunting the PC's. However to mitigate that I would be using the fact that a blue dragon has a very short neck compared to others, and thus reducing its reach with its bite attack (10ft. Huge, 15ft. Gargantuan), as well as its ability to trade ventriloquism for invisibility instead. This would in essence mean he starts combat 60ft. in the air and breaths a line of electricity at the mage in a surprise round, followed by being in the air in the first round and casting a spell as he slowly descended or used dive charge to pin a single enemy to the ground prone, while allowing him to set up for his other attacks next round. As if he gets the character prone he is allowed to bite, and use both claws on them in the same round.

And yes the snatch and drop is very cruel, good thing I am not the dragon.

[Zancloufer]

Few things I want to point out:

His Breath Weapon is currently 4d8 at 12 HD. Most dragons do about half their HD in dice give or take, so it should be 6d8 here. Also I would recommend Flyby attack here, even at the expense of Power attack or rapid strike. Also try rolling (some) of his treasure ahead of time and give him a few things he can use. Maybe even give him more treasure than he should have under the assumption that some of it is consumable (and ofc he wouldn't be able to use all of it).

Also something else to comment on:

It's worth noting that using stats at or above the elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) entails a +1 CR increase.

The CR system has some issues, but this (and stacking multiple foes for CR) are probably where it fails the most IMHO. What kind of stats warrant a CR increase is VERY dependant on what stats the PCs have. That is only PB 25, which even the core books admit is a low stat array. Not sure where they get off saying "If a monster has almost good stats, you should increase it's CR". I would compare the stat array/PB to what the PCs have. If it's around the same (maybe a little better) it shouldn't be worth a CR increase if the monster in question has class levels and/or is some sort of boss. Maybe no name mooks with only monster levels sure, but not a Dragon or some sort of BBEG.

[MisterKaws]

Take a look at Dragon Magic, it has tons of alternative stuff for true dragons.

[Quertus]

Beware giving the Dragon armour it can't fly in, unless you also give it feats to allow it to fly in said armor.

A single level of fighter (or crusader, or warblade, or cleric, or...) will give you heavy armor proficiency, and some extra options, while allowing you to take your rolled "PC-Level" stats for free. (warblade only gets medium armor). Two feats (out of the 5 the Dragon gets for being 12 hd) will allow it to fly in heavy armor.

12 hd is young (medium size, 5 attacks); adult is 21-23 hd (huge, 6 attacks). The adult with 1 class level will be CR 15; the young with 1 class level, CR 7. At least in 3.5.

The stats on your linked sheet seem to have no relation to the stats you rolled for the Dragon.

[dantiesilva]

A creature that is small that becomes medium gains a +4 to str, -2 to dex, and +2 to con. Add in the increase to ability scores at level 4,8, and 12. And you get those stats. If you had read what I said, wyrm of war gives the armor proficiency, as well as the bonus feats that I still need to add to the sheet while losing nothing.
Because of the feat rapid strike he has six attacks instead of five. I hope this clears up your confusion quertus.

[Quertus]

A creature that is small that becomes medium gains a +4 to str, -2 to dex, and +2 to con. Add in the increase to ability scores at level 4,8, and 12. And you get those stats. If you had read what I said, wyrm of war gives the armor proficiency, as well as the bonus feats that I still need to add to the sheet while losing nothing.
Because of the feat rapid strike he has six attacks instead of five. I hope this clears up your confusion quertus.

Not familiar with wyrm of war; misunderstood your explanation. Glad you don't need class levels to fulfill your vision. ;)

I'm pretty sure that the general rule (of size increase start changes) is replaced by the specific rules for Dragon age categorie stat increases. Your stats should be much better. I parrot previous advice: you don't need to start at wyrmling and work up. I then add: it is easier and less confusing to just start at its current age category, whatever that is.

[dantiesilva]

Sadly skill point distribution and feats. I need to see when it can gain certain feats. Though if you could tell me where to find the age modifier it would be greatly appreciated.

Wyrm of war is from dragons of erbbon.

[Crake]

The CR system has some issues, but this (and stacking multiple foes for CR) are probably where it fails the most IMHO. What kind of stats warrant a CR increase is VERY dependant on what stats the PCs have. That is only PB 25, which even the core books admit is a low stat array. Not sure where they get off saying "If a monster has almost good stats, you should increase it's CR". I would compare the stat array/PB to what the PCs have. If it's around the same (maybe a little better) it shouldn't be worth a CR increase if the monster in question has class levels and/or is some sort of boss. Maybe no name mooks with only monster levels sure, but not a Dragon or some sort of BBEG.

To be fair, the elite array is pretty representative of an average 4d6 drop 1 roll (which i believe turns out to be on average 28 point buy or so, so 25 points, but eliminating the chance of rolling terribly is about right). So basically, the way it reads to me is basically replace elite array with "whatever ability score generation is used by your players". So if your players run 32 point buy, then whenever something calls for the elite array, instead give it 32 point buy. Or alternatively, pre-generate some 32 pointbuy arrays to use for NPCs to speed up the process.

In this case, the GM rolled abilities for his dragon, and rolled WELL above the elite array, so it definitely warrants a CR increase at the very least (though I would still pair it up with a class level in my opinion, something interesting and flavourful).

[dantiesilva]

Okay well here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=633823) is the finish build with no items or anything added to it from objects, or anything else. Hope you all enjoy.