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puppyavenger
2007-06-06, 07:39 PM
Seriosly I have never seen a campagn setting in which dragons actualy USE there 20+ all mental stats, it seems that


evil epic level wizzard with 30 int= reuler of a vast realm from sea to sea, destroyer of armies and master of all evil(or n the realms ruler of a little village on the coast)

Evil epic level dragon with 30 int= sits in a subterranian complex which has more than 20 levels for no adequitly explained reason and waits for adventerers.

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-06, 07:43 PM
Motivation.

Dragons are lazy.

EvilElitest
2007-06-06, 07:48 PM
Seriosly I have never seen a campagn setting in which dragons actualy USE there 20+ all mental stats, it seems that


evil epic level wizzard with 30 int= reuler of a vast realm from sea to sea, destroyer of armies and master of all evil(or n the realms ruler of a little village on the coast)

Evil epic level dragon with 30 int= sits in a subterranian complex which has more than 20 levels for no adequitly explained reason and waits for adventerers.

Oh good point, maybe all dragons have an odd fetish?

Well, they are kind of active in FR, less so in Ebberon
from,
EE

Penguinsushi
2007-06-06, 07:48 PM
Eh, that all depends on how much cliche you put into your games.

Though being highly intelligent doesn't necessarily mean you have sophisticated motives, any dragon of notable age probably has a significant amount of power with respect to any nearby civilization. It is tempting to play out a dragon as the 'ferocious, clever beast', but I try to remind myself of what you pointed out - they're highly intelligent creatures.

Also, I've never ran a dragon encounter in it's lair. If the party meets a dragon, it's probably because it's a part something bad going on, and not because they went looking for it.

It's a good point though.

~PS

Setra
2007-06-06, 07:50 PM
We're not lazy!

We're just often tired, and very appreciative of our treasure.

puppyavenger
2007-06-06, 07:53 PM
While atleast Ebboron did away with "It's red so it must be evil"

In most of my games old dragons rule the countries(and my players are starting to get tired of every ruler* being a high level sorcerer



*exxageration of course

Turcano
2007-06-06, 07:55 PM
One of the biggest reasons why this is the case is because the playtesting that established the challenge ratings apparently didn't take appropriate tactics into account, which means that a level-appropriate encounter will often result in a TPK when played with intelligence (or even with appropriate instincts in the case of non-intelligent creatures). This means that if you are going to use that level of ruthlessness with your players, the established CR is not an adequate measurement of difficulty.

Sage in the Playground
2007-06-06, 07:55 PM
They're all too afraid of Richard.

Fear the Mayor of little village on the coast!:smallbiggrin:

SpiderBrigade
2007-06-06, 08:04 PM
It's the superhigh wisdom score that does it. The dragons realize that all of this powermongering and epic-monster-defeating isn't the path to true happiness. Rather, the path is to make a super-comfy nest, line it with gold, and relax. Possibly eat some virgins now and again. Or whatever it is the non-evil dragons do for fun.

I actually don't see why having super-good mental stats should mean vast-kingdom-ruling ambition, either. There are plenty of really smart people who from a conventional perspective "waste" their talents.

As far as the "epic level" thing goes, there's a significant difference between a level 24 wizard and a CR 24 dragon. The wizard has gone adventuring, learning new things and gathering experience to reach his level of power. He's almost guaranteed to have an overachiever, highly ambitious nature - otherwise he would have settled down and lived off his riches at level 8 or so.

The dragon, meanwhile, has done nothing but grow up. His CR is reflective of the natural badassitude of dragons, not his ongoing quest for personal excellence. So why should he go out and stress about beating up murlocs or whatever, he can just chill and continue to get stronger.

So yeah, laziness :smallbiggrin:

Setra
2007-06-06, 08:09 PM
Or whatever it is the non-evil dragons do for fun.We mostly walk around shapeshifted into human forms to observe you, it's quite humorous at times.

Counterpower
2007-06-06, 09:02 PM
I wouldn't really call it laziness so much as an attitude of "There's always tomorrow." After all dragons have at least two millenia to do what they want. Hard to get off your tail end and do something when you know that you've got well over a thousand years to do stuff. What's another day of waiting?

Which, I suppose, is a type of laziness. For me, there will always be some dragons who are motivated to do things.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-06, 09:09 PM
In my campaigns, dragons often go through a "phase" in their younger days when they go out conquering and amassing loot and creating half-dragon bastard children everywhere. Eventually they just get tired of it and find a good place to spend the rest of eternity in peace and quiet. If you ever meet an ancient wyrm red dragon, it's actually highly likely to ignore you so long as you don't wreck any of it's things and don't annoy it too much. As such, from about the point they hit old and onwards, they start gravitating more and more towards neutral until a red could meet a gold and have a lovely chat about the weather and sip tea instead of tearing each others' hearts out.

Not all dragons necessarily follow this route, but most do. So my players try not to assault a dragon based on it's color until they've clearly identified it as actually being dangerous.

SpiderBrigade
2007-06-06, 09:13 PM
Heheh, I like those ideas a lot, Einstrauss. Especially the part about leaving dragons alone unless they seem dangerous. Because if the black dragon isn't acting aggressively, it's probably way out of your league anyway because it's 8 million years old :smallbiggrin:

Citizen Joe
2007-06-06, 09:27 PM
You know all those reward posters and old guys offering bounties on dragons? It's a ruse by the dragon. He wrote out those posters himself and has some minions spreading rumours to lure easy treasure into his lair. You know that dragonslaying sword? The arrows? Yea, they're cursed. That's also why you tend to find those nice dragon slaying weapons and equipment in the lair... from other dragon hunters.

ocato
2007-06-06, 09:34 PM
We mostly walk around shapeshifted into human forms to observe you fornicate with your women, creating an endless brood of half-dragons, sorcerers, and from time to time, bards. it's quite humorous at times.

Fixed that for you.

Also, think about this. Right now, there are people with 200+ IQs. They're probably sitting at their computers at home, doing their own thing. They aren't solving all of the world's problems all the time, though some of them might go to their nation's capital or to some business and advise someone.

Just because you are smart doesn't mean you can't take some time and be at home, living your life and doing the things you like to do.

Scalenex
2007-06-06, 09:45 PM
I created a homebrew world where dragons used to have an advanced civilization which collapsed due to strenuous internal and external pressures (the dragons were as varied as modern humans in alignment and not color-coded for your convenience so you couldn't tell what dragons were in which sides). Their civilization gave way to elves and then to humans.

In days of yore, many of the remaining dragons fought against (or with) humans and elves to try to stop or personal shape their budding civilizations but both Good and Evil dragons that interfered with humanity often ended up skinned by adventurers. Most of the older dragons are Neutral since Good and Evil dragons tend to make enough enemies through their actions so as to attract dragon hunters. They keep lairs in inaccessible places. Just like with the North American black bear, the youngest dragons are the ones that are forced by the necessity to live near human and demihuman settlements because the bigger older dragons have the most adventurer free spots. Most of the Good and Evil dragons are the youngest ones. Law aligned Evil young dragons are frequently extortionists, demanding tribute in exchange for not devouring frontier towns. Chaotic aligned Evil dragons tend to pillage wherever they think treasure is relatively undefended. Good dragons aren't that different except when one of them offers protection for tribute, they don't (usually) mean protection from themselves and they are pickier of the type of people they steal treasure from. Neutral Dragons are among the wisest sages and philosophers in the world. Dragons of all alignments sometimes find small groups of intelligent creatures, particular those with shapechanging powers be they the alpha of a pegasus herd or the totemic god of a tribe of barbarians. Dragons often have other hobbies such as sculpture, gardening, cooking, archeaology (to the era when dragons ruled), and various less savory hobbies. Dragons avoid scheming and planning cause there is relatively little you can do without minions and dragons are reluctant to put themselves at the center of conspiracies where they would make a good target for adventurers.

My world really only has one scheming dragon. He's a dragon pretending to be a vampire pretending to be a human. He tried to lead a coalition of evil creatures to stop humans from becoming the new world power. His minions were defeated and epic level wizardry cursed him to remain in human form. He was left alive because it was viewed as karmarific if he'd live out a very short life as a one of the humans he so despised, but his would be cursers didn't realize that they turned him into an unaging human with full retention of his sorcerery. After laying low for a century or two, he reemerged in an unstable little kingdom ruled by an unpopular tyrant and nigh single handedly toppled him, taking the throne by popular accliam. After securing his power, he quickly showed more ruthless colors and started conquering his neighbors until he had formed a very large nation. To hide his immortality, he hasn't been seen during the day in living memory. He also occassionally has beautiful maidens sent to his bed chambers who are never seen again. This reinforces the "I'm a vampire act," but he also does it because he still hates humanity and he enjoys the symbolic damage he is doing to the human race by pruning out some of the most promising humans before they can reproduce. Not only will the vampire act allay suspicions that he's a dragon, any would-be assassins are likely to try and come at him with anti-vampire implements like garlic or holy items.

He fears that a dragon who knows about his former life will put two and two together and thrwart his global domination scheme, so he offers decent sized bounties for any dragon slain. He also thinks that magical research could be done with a non-cursed dragon to cure him so he offers bounties for live dragons too. He provided generous incentives for a major magic school to be founded in his capital so he has a potential pool to recruit skilled minions and he can have an excuse to oppress sorcerers, who he also fear because of their ties to dragons. He backed a major monestary so he could have a secret police force (since they can look like ordinary people and travel about unarmed, they could catch criminals, rebels and heretics by surprise). They are also a check and balance againt the wizard school since monks make good wizard killers. The non-evil but very lawful institution gives him more legitimacy, which he needs because he publicly established a LE religion as the state religion in exchange for their support. So my world has one evil dragon that keeps busy.

Setra
2007-06-06, 09:55 PM
Fixed that for you.
SHHH!

That is a secret. Man was not meant to know.

Actually some human women are quite attractive to us.

ocato
2007-06-06, 09:57 PM
That's probably why 'my' daughter was born with red scales on her head! Damn you dragons! You ruined my life! Damn you all!

SpiderBrigade
2007-06-06, 10:32 PM
That's probably why 'my' daughter was born with red scales on her head! Damn you dragons! You ruined my life! Damn you all!"What are you talking about?! Guy's eyes are normal! What have you done to him? You maniacs!"

"Faluzure is the father, child."

jkdjr25
2007-06-06, 10:42 PM
One of the best uses I've seen for intelligent dragons was Fantasy Flight's Dragonstar setting. Dragons ruling the known universe is pretty sweet.

Duke Malagigi
2007-06-06, 11:40 PM
Well it depends upon the dragon to me.

Red dragons-Red dragons are usually the Jokers of dragon kind. They rarely make actual frontal attacks on villages. Red dragons prefer to use aerosolized poison and flammable gas to kill and terrorize town folk and spread anarchy and discord while disguised, standing a few hundred feet away watching the chaos. They'll also corrupt children and young adults using them as assassins and turning them into spree killers.

Gold dragons-Gold dragons tend to be benevolent, wise, regal, stern and mildly to moderately eccentric. Unlike red dragons, gold dragons usually try to build strong societies and governments, while at the same time preaching mercy and compassion. They also tend to be highly artistic and creative often times teaching the other sentient races how to produce such artwork. Gold dragon tactics tends to involve driving any enemies into a single indefensible position, to quickly annihilate, or splitting up large groups of enemies so they cooperate with each other, against the dragon, while he or she picks them off one by one. Gold dragons tend to be so loved by those they live by, that they often times have armies of loyal and willing solders, snipers and bodyguards.

White dragons-White dragons are Deliverance dragons. Need I say more?

Saph
2007-06-07, 09:08 AM
Humanoids gain power by going on adventures, gaining XP, and acquiring levels. So if they don't keep going on trips, fighting things, getting into trouble, and taking on quests, they don't advance.

Dragons, on the other hand, gain power by . . . getting older.

So if a dragon wants to get stronger, it finds a really secluded place where it won't be disturbed and settles down for a few centuries. To a human, this looks remarkably similar to "doing nothing." :)

Also, as SpiderBrigade pointed out, dragons have a really high wisdom score. This means they've got enough common sense to know that if you want to have a long, happy, successful life, you don't do the kind of things that get you involved in adventures. Just think about it - how long do most adventurers and BBEGs live?

- Saph

PhallicWarrior
2007-06-07, 11:15 AM
In my campaigns, dragons often go through a "phase" in their younger days when they go out conquering and amassing loot and creating half-dragon bastard children everywhere. Eventually they just get tired of it and find a good place to spend the rest of eternity in peace and quiet.

I can't be the only one who finds this idea amusing. An interesting idea to be sure, but amusing. Do you mind if I yoink this concept for my next campaign?

Leon
2007-06-07, 11:29 AM
Seriosly I have never seen a campagn setting in which dragons actualy USE there 20+ all mental stats, it seems that


evil epic level wizzard with 30 int= reuler of a vast realm from sea to sea, destroyer of armies and master of all evil(or n the realms ruler of a little village on the coast)

Evil epic level dragon with 30 int= sits in a subterranian complex which has more than 20 levels for no adequitly explained reason and waits for adventerers.

It depends on you setting, Atypical D&D Dragons are rather boring (and small) when you line them up alongside IK Dragons - Everblight is doing quite well for a Dragon with no body

Maxymiuk
2007-06-07, 11:35 AM
I once remarked upon the same thing. Where was that thread...

Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28448)

Wolf_Shade
2007-06-07, 12:14 PM
I once remarked upon the same thing. Where was that thread...

Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28448)

After reading the first page of the linked thread I've come to this conclusion;

The issue is not with dragons and their motivations, the issue is with the assumption that all creatures must fit within human molds and make sense in such. A dragon makes no sense when compared to human norms. However, a dragon is not a human, and therefor the comparison is inherently flawed.

A being of incredible wisdom does not need to conquer.
A being of incredible intellect can challenge itself, and does not need to venture out for stimulation and interaction.
A being of incredible age does not need to be ambitious.

Take an Ent, give it a treasure fetish, claws, and a breath weapon, and you have a dragon.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-06-07, 02:01 PM
Hey, anyone who wants to use a campaign idea I've posted here is totally fair game. It makes a lot more sense then the stereotypical "hordes treasure in a dingy cave until the end of time"-style dragons.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-07, 02:16 PM
A being of incredible wisdom does not need to conquer.

"Mankind is foolish and self-destructive. Left to your own devices, you would destroy our world. I have seen this, and I am going to correct the problem."


A being of incredible intellect can challenge itself, and does not need to venture out for stimulation and interaction.

"So why do you adventure?" "I needed a reason?"


A being of incredible age does not need to be ambitious.

I don't have a quote for this one, because it's just plain wrong given the context. Dragons grow powerful by growing old. The fact that it has incredible age proves it's ambitions.

Mr Horse
2007-06-07, 03:25 PM
like others have said, it really depends on the campaign setting.
in Dragonlance, dragons make up some of the most influential powers in the world, and in Darksun, evil, nature-corrupting/draining/eating dragons literally rule the world.
Compared to Darksun and Dragonlance, you're right though, dragons don't really do a whole lot in settings such as Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Planescape.

I can understand why that is in Planescape, considering that there's just such a vast amount of wonderfully strange and exceptionally powerful beings out there and flavourwise, dragons just don't fit so well in general.
In Forgotten Realms, antagonists usually revolve around the denizens of the Underdark, which seems to favour aberrations and drow rather than dragonkin.

Theoretically, yes, dragons are more than capable of taking over the world, but you also have to remember that the way they think isn't even remotely comparable to the way a human thinks. In most settings, their desires, wishes, wants and needs generally just revolve around hiding out, cuddling treasure, sleeping, sometimes eating, sometimes reading and sometimes terrorizing/helping out/observing/mating with their neighbours. Their unsurpassed intelligence is almost exclusively used to figure out how to best do these things without drawing too much attention to themselves.

Wardog
2007-06-09, 09:33 AM
An example from a setting I devised:

In the ancient past (before humanoids appeared), dragons were the most powerful (or among the most powerful) beings in existence. They were intelligent, but there was little for them to use their intelligence for, so it was not utilised to its full potential.

Dragons didn't need, or even comprehend such things as cities, civilizations, etc. They could use their innate magic to take on other forms (animals, or "humanoid" dragons), if they needed to manipulate objects, get into small places, or trick other dragons, but most of the time they simply had no need for this, and so seldom did it. In "humanoid" form, they could make and use primitive tools, but again, it was rarely necessary, and seldom done.

Most of the time, dragons spent their time soaring across the skies, hunting animals for food or sport, battling or associating with other dragons, exploring the deep places in the earth or oceans, and accumulating "treasure". They had no concept of money, and their treasure would not have included much if any crafted items; it would just be rare or magical or merely shiny things that occurred in nature and which the dragons were instinctively attracted to. (Just because they are powerful and intelligent doesn't mean they can't also have a somewhat magpie-like attitude to shiny things).


The dragons themselves come in a variety of breeds/species, of different abilities, appearances (colour and form etc); certain personality traits tend to be more common in certain breeds, but there are no “colour-coded” personalities or alignment. Indeed, concepts of "good" and "evil" did not really exist at this time - they are human(oid) concepts.


At this stage in (pre)history, dragons ruled the world, but really only in the way that lions rule the savannah. (Or would, if they were bigger, scalier, intelligent, and could fly. And breathe fire).


When humans and similar races first arose, some dragons ignored them, some became curious about them, and some merely thought they tasted nice.

However, as humans became more numerous, and more socially and technologically advanced, the dragons began to take more notice of them. Especially when it became clear that they were intelligent, and were using their intelligence to compensate for their physically limitations. Some dragons viewed them as a potential threat, and would simply destroy them where they found them.

Others became curious about them and their habits, in particularly their ability to make and use tools, and to construct buildings. Some of these dragons would observe from afar, attempting to learn from the humans. Others took a more direct approach, using their magic to assume human form so they could more among them. Some did this out of delight at learning new things, and so they could make for themselves the new forms of treasure that the humans could make; others did it simply to ensure they could keep one step ahead of the potentially dangerous new species that was spreading across the world. Either way, this acted a stimulant for the dragons' intelligence, allowing (or forcing) them to learn and plan to an extent that had not been possible previously.

Yet other dragons viewed the humanoids as subjects to be dominated, and set out to conquer human lands; other dragons presented themselves as gods, demanding worshipers, and sacrifices.


Over time, the humanoids became ever more numerous, ever more advanced, and ever more dangerous. They also had much shorted lives than the dragons, which prompted them to develop fast. Faster than the dragons had anticipated. "Suddenly", the humanoids had cities, siege engines, armies, powerful magic, and mighty warriors. "Suddenly", they were a potential match for the dragons (or at least, for a dragon).

Mighty conflicts broke out between dragons and humanoids. Many dragons were slain, ever in mass battle, or by great heroes. Many more humanoids and humanoid cities were destroyed, but they had the advantage of numbers.

Eventually, dragons became much rarer. Many were killed; others retreated to inaccessible places - high mountains, or deep underground, or remote forests - whether to seek solitude away from the modern world, or to plot their revenge.


Others used their magic to take on humanoid form, and so they could live in disguise among (or near) humanoid civilization, (usually) in secret.

Some, as a result of living among humans, gradually came to think and behave more and more like humans, and to learn human virtues (and vices); some even to the extend that they actually began to prefer their human form.

Typical dragon attitudes usually remained, but became more human-like. Many dragons liked having power; now this tended to be political or economic in nature, rather than pure brute force (although several dragons instead chose to lead armies in mighty battles). Most dragons liked to accumulate treasure; now, rather than gold piled up in a cave, this became land, and mansions filled with works of art and rare artefacts, and expensive clothes. Rather than plundering sheep and cattle from fields, or extorting them from the peasants, some dragons became land owners, whose subjects raised livestock for them. (With the dragon landlords being as benevolent or as exploitative as any human landlords - they had now become sufficiently humanoid in outlook that they could legitimately be described as Good, or Evil, etc).

That said, these "humanised" dragons still tend to keep themselves apart from human company, preferring that of other dragons when they can find them, sometimes even when those dragons are of opposing alignments. (Unless one dragon is very good and the other very evil, they will normally have more in common with each other than with most humans).

And of course, there are still those dragons who have not "gone human", hiding away in the inaccessible (to non-dragons) parts of the world, who tend to view the humanised dragons at best as a bit weird (and soft), and at worst as disgusting traitors to their kind, who will one day be swept aside along with their human pets, when the "true" dragons regain their rightful place as Lords of the word. (BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!)




So that's my idea for how more interesting dragons could be integrated in setting of my creation. (Incidently, all the ideas for adventures or stories in this setting have had dragons as protagonists, although I'm sure it would work fine for normal adventures).

Dervag
2007-06-09, 09:57 AM
"Mankind is foolish and self-destructive. Left to your own devices, you would destroy our world. I have seen this, and I am going to correct the problem."That's a justification; it isn't necessarily a compelling reason. A dragon might very well consider self-destructive human behavior to be like the self-destructive behavior of lemmings. It's a shame, certainly, one of the great tragedies of nature, but it doesn't really matter. The lemmings will overbreed and then go do something suicidal; it is their way.

So a dragon might be quite content to hunker down while this cycle continues. Remember that dragons are fundamentally reptilian. Reptiles don't generally perform unnecessary tasks in nature, which suggests that dragons won't, either.


"So why do you adventure?" "I needed a reason?"[quote]Mammals are instinctively playful. In an intelligent being, that manifests as a crusading impulse- the urge to go out and do something, even if it isn't necessary to achieve some desired end. This impulse leads us both to do more adventurous things and to find other reasons to do adventurous things.

[quote]I don't have a quote for this one, because it's just plain wrong given the context. Dragons grow powerful by growing old. The fact that it has incredible age proves it's ambitions.So your reasoning is that if it weren't ambitious it would... die before getting old?

I don't get it. Assuming that dragons, like most other living creatures, do not want to die, then they would try to avoid death. Since dragons are strong and intelligent, they will usually be successful at avoiding death. So they become powerful, whether they are ambitious or not, just like human beings get gray hair.

I fail to see your reasoning; how are you using the word 'ambition'?

NullAshton
2007-06-09, 11:57 AM
I would think that dragons would prefer subtle means to acquire wealth and treasure.

Dragons tend to have allies a lot of times, either in the form of a village paying tribute to it or a small b and of kobold/half-dragons/whatever. They manipulate their 'minions' in order to gain wealth and power, without people noticing it.

Say a dragon wants a powerful magical item, that turns out to be hidden in a museum. The dragon uses some political contacts he got in the past century or so, to move security out of the museum. Then he gets kobold thieves, or 'hires' thieves from the thieves guild using a favor that the guild owes the dragon. All should go well, and the dragon should then have a shiney magic item. With minimal risk to the dragon itself, and the dragon hardly has to do anything.

Dragons probably don't go on 'active' conquests because they have a long enough life to do 'subtle' conquest like that, and because they don't want to put themselves at unneeded risk.

(name here)
2007-06-09, 08:38 PM
The Dragonmech campaign setting treats dragons fine. The normal dragons apparently died when the lunar rain (massive meteor storms dumped from the moon) caved in their dwellings or the lunar dragons (super dragons from the moon) came calling. The lunar dragons effectively control the surface, except where the city-mechs tread,or the Steinan Confederacy's crack dragon killers, known as the dragonmechs, patrol. The lunar dragons apparently attack at random, but they attack with a pattern visible only to the strange mindsets of lunar creatures.

Mr Horse
2007-06-10, 03:52 AM
That's a justification; it isn't necessarily a compelling reason. A dragon might very well consider self-destructive human behavior to be like the self-destructive behavior of lemmings. It's a shame, certainly, one of the great tragedies of nature, but it doesn't really matter. The lemmings will overbreed and then go do something suicidal; it is their way.


sorry to nitpick, and I know I'm being off-topic, but this statement about lemmings is in fact completely and totally false. Lemmings do not behave suicidally. At least not in nature. They only behave suicidally when something is pressuring and scaring them, making them flee in terror. In the cases that created this myth, those "somethings" were film crews chasing the lemmings off cliffs and into the sea.

I know it's a minor thing to nitpick about, but it greatly annoys me when I see this myth perpetuated. Let it die already!

Maxymiuk
2007-06-10, 06:26 AM
The issue is not with dragons and their motivations, the issue is with the assumption that all creatures must fit within human molds and make sense in such. A dragon makes no sense when compared to human norms. However, a dragon is not a human, and therefor the comparison is inherently flawed.




Remember that dragons are fundamentally reptilian. Reptiles don't generally perform unnecessary tasks in nature, which suggests that dragons won't, either.


I'd imagine dragons are fundamentally dragons. They may not be humans, but they're not lizards either. However, they do share something with humans. Namely, capacity for reason.

In our world there are no dragons, no elves, no dwarves, no unicorns. The only sentient creatures are, in fact, humans. As such, until presented with evidence to the contrary, I cannot help but assume that any intelligent creature will also share certain human traits:


Boredom. 30 Intelligence is all fine and well, but if a dragon just sits in its cave, it might as well be a 3. There is a significant difference between having a capacity for reason, and using this capacity to full extent. Furthermore, from my own experience I find that there is a positive correlation between intellect and curiosity.



A being of incredible intellect can challenge itself, and does not need to venture out for stimulation and interaction.


I'll ask: how, exactly? Even with that 30 Int it's pretty hard to challenge yourself with only darkness and rocks for company. There is a vast difference between intelligence and knowledge. One fuels the other, but in order to ever learn something, a dragon will have to venture out of its cave and interact with the world.


Extelligence. I'm blatantly stealing the term from Terry Pratchett's The Science of Discworld: The Globe. For those who haven't read it, the idea boils down to the human ability to share, store, and pass on experience and knowlege.

The Draconomicon suggests that dragons are born with a certain amount of innate skills, either inherent to them by virtue of being dragons, or passed on by its parents while the hatchling is still an egg. One could maybe argue that this is enough, but the Draconomicon also suggests that dragon females tend to move and establish territories around the domains of prominent males. And that suggests two things.
One is that dragons do venture out and interact with each other, or other sentient races. Furthermore, those interactions result in said dragons performing noteworthy feats, as evidenced by their fame. The way you definitely don't gain fame is by sitting on your butt and watching the hoard go moldy.
Two is that dragons do have something akin to a society. It may differ from human society, but then, in the real world, humans themselves develop societies that are different - often drastically - from one another.
Unless of course you decide that the only thing creatures of great intelligence and wisdom limit their interactions to is "Wham, bam, thank you, ma'am."

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-10, 07:11 AM
A properly educated mind is never bored. John Stuart Mill

I have spent a not insignificant amount of time in contemplation, without any form of entertainment aside from my own thoughts, and I'm just a philosophy student. I do not possess the mental capacity of a dragon.

Maxymiuk
2007-06-10, 08:09 AM
A properly educated mind is never bored. John Stuart Mill

Emphasis mine.


I have spent a not insignificant amount of time in contemplation, without any form of entertainment aside from my own thoughts, and I'm just a philosophy student. I do not possess the mental capacity of a dragon.

Were those thoughts about something you heard, witnessed, read, or otherwise learned, by any chance?

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-10, 02:45 PM
Aren't dragons supposed to have hoards of treasure and magical abilities?

Also, all Knowledge skills are class skills for dragons.

Also, contemplating the nature of the universe can be accomplished a priori. Especially with a 30 something Int.

Corolinth
2007-06-10, 03:06 PM
By the time any dragon has a 30 intelligence, it's a thousand years old and has seen, heard, and learned more than any of us can imagine. So by that point, it is perfectly capable of contemplating the secrets of the universe all by its lonesome.

A dragon has centuries with which to explore and interact with the world around it. It would not be at all unusual for a creature with that sort of longevity to seclude itself, spending years at a time in isolation, reflecting over what it saw and learned on its latest foray into the world. Sort of like when you go to school in the morning, sit in class, and then go home in the afternoon to do your homework, except that a dragon thinks nothing of spending a decade on "homework."

The fact that you have a dragon sitting in its lair for extended periods of time does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that it never leaves. Quite to the contrary, the dragon would suggest you suffer from ADD because you feel the need to leave your own lair every day.

bosssmiley
2007-06-10, 03:53 PM
One of the best uses I've seen for intelligent dragons was Fantasy Flight's Dragonstar setting. Dragons ruling the known universe is pretty sweet.

Sorry, did you say "Shadowrun" there? :smallwink:

Ali
2007-06-10, 03:58 PM
I've always hated dragons. I always will...

Especially Red Dragons.

Skjaldbakka
2007-06-10, 03:59 PM
So, do you just play D?

phantomhermit
2007-06-10, 04:13 PM
i view great wyrms as the epitome of earthly capacity, each different kind a world full of power in a single being, almost like demi-gods. and the dragons that are gods are even more fascinating. it is their strength that makes them powerful, it is their cunning that makes them deadly. and their motives? i think that we will never know. they are like cats. they sit and meditate on whatever they want with their eyes half closed, and when they are not doing that, they kill things [at least that is how my cat is].

Diggorian
2007-06-10, 04:59 PM
Because it's Dungeons & Dragons, I feel obligated to do up the great lizards in proper fashion.

Adult and older dragons I place at the top of a draconic hierarchy using kobolds, lizardfolk, troglodytes, or any of the draconic races whom worship them as gods. If it's kobolds, the ascending order of the tribe is: straight MM kobolds, NPC classed ones, PC classed kobolds, Pc classed draconic kobolds, PC classed half dragon kobolds, Dragon Shaman draconic and half dragon kobolds, big mama/daddy dragon.

Why be a high profile town razer when minions/family can bring the gold to you? Random encounters are youngsters looking to start their hoard and carve out some territory.

Maxymiuk
2007-06-11, 05:12 AM
Aren't dragons supposed to have hoards of treasure and magical abilities?

You mean those just spontaneously pop into existence? Hot damn! I guess I'll hang up the ol' sword and just go sit in a cave waiting for treasure to happen.


Also, all Knowledge skills are class skills for dragons.

Which means they have an easier time increasing them, but that doesn't mean they can't put their points elsewhere. And if they don't venture out, how are they ever going to learn anything?
How would you ever know you're a philosophy student if no one ever told you there is such a thing as philosophy?


Also, contemplating the nature of the universe can be accomplished a priori. Especially with a 30 something Int.

*sigh* Let's try this again. Intelligence does not equal knowledge.
To gain answers, you need to know what questions to ask, wouldn't you say?



By the time any dragon has a 30 intelligence, it's a thousand years old and has seen, heard, and learned more than any of us can imagine. So by that point, it is perfectly capable of contemplating the secrets of the universe all by its lonesome.

I'm willing to concede that point. As long as...


A dragon has centuries with which to explore and interact with the world around it. It would not be at all unusual for a creature with that sort of longevity to seclude itself, spending years at a time in isolation, reflecting over what it saw and learned on its latest foray into the world. Sort of like when you go to school in the morning, sit in class, and then go home in the afternoon to do your homework, except that a dragon thinks nothing of spending a decade on "homework."

...we establish that dragons do venture out, acquire knowledge and skills, and pursue their interests instead of sitting around in the cave and quietly going insane from boredom.


The fact that you have a dragon sitting in its lair for extended periods of time does not, by any stretch of the imagination, mean that it never leaves. Quite to the contrary, the dragon would suggest you suffer from ADD because you feel the need to leave your own lair every day.

No argument here.