Importing "Vow of Poverty" To 5e?

[The Shadowdove]

Hey everyone,

My table had gotten a lot of use out of exalted deeds/vile darkness in previous editions.

we also play highish magic faerun.

We are going to import out 3.5 characters to 5e.

The problem being, our long time monk had taken "Vow of Poverty" in a really reminiscent scene where he talked to the avatar of his god.


For those who remember the vows, Vow of poverty granted bonuses upon level progression in the exchange of both charity and the refusal of using/keeping items of value.


My players have expressed interest in the vows and have agreed that it would be unfair for him to lose his Vow, while they get to keep their magical items.

Help me remake it into 5e please?

Ive also considered, instead, having his vow grant the benefits of a second monk archetype. opinions?



Thank you in advance everyone. I cant count how many times this community has provided solutions to game dilemmas for my table.


-Dove

[Desamir]

Because of bounded accuracy, stuff like a +6 bonus to AC won't fly.

I'd suggest giving him the permanent benefit of specific 5e magic items instead, like Bracers of Defense, without actually giving him the items.

[Waazraath]

Hey everyone,

My table had gotten a lot of use out of exalted deeds/vile darkness in previous editions.

we also play highish magic faerun.

We are going to import out 3.5 characters to 5e.

The problem being, our long time monk had taken "Vow of Poverty" in a really reminiscent scene where he talked to the avatar of his god.


For those who remember the vows, Vow of poverty granted bonuses upon level progression in the exchange of both charity and the refusal of using/keeping items of value.


My players have expressed interest in the vows and have agreed that it would be unfair for him to lose his Vow, while they get to keep their magical items.

Help me remake it into 5e please?

Ive also considered, instead, having his vow grant the benefits of a second monk archetype. opinions?



Thank you in advance everyone. I cant count how many times this community has provided solutions to game dilemmas for my table.


-Dove

Difficult one, since 5e doesn't assume items, like 3.5. I guess it depends on what is done for the other characters. If they can take their magic gear with them, you can homebrew a 5e Vow of Poverty and the VoP monk should get bonuses that are about the same as the items. If magic items aren't transferred, let the monk take a new feat instead, or ignore it except for role play.

[JoeJ]

Every time the monk has to deal with some sort of difficulty because of their vow, they get Inspiration.

[brainface]

Because of bounded accuracy, stuff like a +6 bonus to AC won't fly.

I'd suggest giving him the permanent benefit of specific 5e magic items instead, like Bracers of Defense, without actually giving him the items.

Yeah, this... I'd have them reach epiphanies, gain divine inspiration or so on about as often as the other party members are gaining magic items, with essentially the same effect? It's slightly better because it can't be easily removed/stolen, but... in practice actual magic items rarely are anyway? (and if they ever break their vow/offend their god, welp, there goes that.)

I don't think I'd charge a feat or anything either... I'd consider it more background territory? And probably roleplay that they can never afford the nice innrooms/carriages and so forth.

[Safety Sword]

It's already there in the forms of Epic Boons.

You just have to decide on what is reasonable to hand out and do it. As others have suggested, maybe a permanent increase to AC in line with the bracer of defence, but call it a boon and apply the effect directly to the character.

Edit: Second thought, you can also have it scale at certain levels or under certain conditions.

Second Edit: Bonus points if the boon is activated as a bonus action and the command words are: "Raise Shields, Red Alert".

[Lonely Tylenol]

Consider having conditional bonuses that are explicitly meant to replace a standard gear complement. For example:

While you are not carrying any magic items, or items whose combined value exceeds 5gp:
- You no longer require food or drink to sustain yourself. In addition, you no longer need to sleep; instead, you may meditate deeply, remaining semiconscious, for 4 hours a day. While meditating, you can dream after a fashion; such dreams are actually mental exercises that have become reflexive through years of practice. After resting in this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.
- You can breathe normally in any environment. At 7th level, you gain advantage on saving throws made against harmful gases and vapors.
- Difficult terrain doesn't cost you extra movement. In addition, at level 13, magic can neither reduce your speed nor cause you to be paralyzed or restrained.
- Your unarmed strikes are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage. In addition, your unarmed strikes gain a +1 bonus to hit and damage at levels 5, 11, and 17.
- At 3rd, 9th, and 15th level, choose one of the following damage types: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing. You gain resistance to all nonmagical damage of the chosen type. In addition, you gain a +1 bonus to Armor Class. At 19th level, you gain resistance to all damage of these types.
If you willingly break your Vow of Poverty by carrying utilizing items whose combined value exceeds 5gp, you lose the benefits of this feat until you spend one week of atonement in a designated holy location.

Worth noting that this is NOT balanced against the opportunity cost of a feat, but against what could be considered a "standard" gear complement. Over the course of 20 levels, all at odd levels, this gives you the benefits of the following items:
+3 weapon (limited to Unarmed Strike)
Bracers of Armor (+1 extra, or equivalent to half of the benefit of Ring of Protection)
Necklace of Adaptation
Ring of Free Action
Armor of Invulnerability (resistance portion)

In addition, you gain the Trance feature of elves, and the Ring of Sustenance effect from previous editions (mostly for flavor, as this was an early add from Vow of Poverty).

Use this at your own risk. Probably wiser to just use certain portions of it.

[TripleD]

I think the easiest way would be to fold it in as a monk subclass: "Way of the Beggar", and add some kind of vow similar to what the Paladins have to deal with. Middle of marking right now, otherwise I'd take the time to hash it out myself.

[Malifice]

Hey everyone,

My table had gotten a lot of use out of exalted deeds/vile darkness in previous editions.

we also play highish magic faerun.

We are going to import out 3.5 characters to 5e.

The problem being, our long time monk had taken "Vow of Poverty" in a really reminiscent scene where he talked to the avatar of his god.


For those who remember the vows, Vow of poverty granted bonuses upon level progression in the exchange of both charity and the refusal of using/keeping items of value.


My players have expressed interest in the vows and have agreed that it would be unfair for him to lose his Vow, while they get to keep their magical items.

Help me remake it into 5e please?

Ive also considered, instead, having his vow grant the benefits of a second monk archetype. opinions?



Thank you in advance everyone. I cant count how many times this community has provided solutions to game dilemmas for my table.


-Dove

Give him an 'epic boon' from the DMG at 6th, 12th and 18th level, as long as he complies with the vow (and doesnt use magic items or retain personal wealth).

[Levism84]

In the Dungeon Master's Guide, they give an option for a (somewhat) ascetic cleric in the Dungeon Master's Workshop.

"You can also change armor and weapon proficiencies to reflect certain aspects of the world. For example, you could decide that the clerics of a particular deity belong to an order that forbids the accumulation of material goods, other than magic items useful for their divine mission. Such clerics carry a staff, but they are forbidden from wearing armor or using weapons other than that staff. To reflect this, you could remove the armor and weapon proficiencies for clerics of this faith, making them proficient with the quarterstaff and nothing else. You could give them a benefit to make up for the loss of proficiencies--something like the monk's Unarmored Defense class feature, but presented as a divine blessing."

Also, keep in mind, you don't need to acquire as many magic items throughout your adventuring career in 5e to be an effective combatant. There are few (if any) stacking bonuses for AC, attack, saving throws, and the like. So, you can get away with giving out fewer magic items.

All that being said, I would suggest this for the ascetic monk:

Vow of Poverty. You have taken a sacred vow to forswear possessions. You are forbidden from accumulating material goods and wealth, except magic items that assist you in your divine mission. You may use a quarterstaff, but are forbidden from using other weapons or wearing armor. Other than your quarterstaff and magic items, you may only possess common clothes, enough food to last a single tenday (usually in the form of bland rations), and a simple backpack or satchel. If you can cast spells, you are allowed to carry a spell component pouch. In exchange for your ascetic lifestyle, you gain spiritual strength in the form of 1 extra point of ki per Monk level.

In addition, you can spend Ki points to fuel additional Ki features. You gain these additional Ki features: Enduring Body, Focused Mind, and Sustaining Spirit.

Enduring Body
When you take damage, you can use your reaction to spend 1 ki point to roll a d12. Add your Constitution modifier to the number rolled, and reduce the damage by that total.

Focused Mind
You can spend 1 ki point to gain immunity to detect thoughts and any attempt to discern or scry your location. This lasts until you meditate to regain your ki points, but you may choose to extend the effect by immediately spending 1 ki point.

Sustaining Spirit
You can spend 1 ki point to go without food or water. This lasts until you meditate to regain your ki points, but you may choose to extend the effect by immediately spending 1 ki point.

If you willingly violate this personal vow, you lose the benefits of this feature until you spend 24 hours in solemn meditation, reflecting upon your violation and recommitting yourself to an ascetic life.

[Felvion]

You don't have to homebrew anything. Just tell him that as a reward of his faith his class became balanced and is no longer useless. Apart from this, such a vow means much less in 5th than it did in 3.5. The reason is that now we have a low magic item policy so that we don't mess the heck out of bounded accuracy. Power is given mostly through the class features while gear just adds flavor and bonuses that are not essential to keep the game balanced.
All the above mean that it all comes down to the way you intend to handle magic items. If you intend to let the rest of the group keep their old items it's wrong. You have to refluff the items and minimize all the +1,+2 they used to have. Personally, I had a hard time trying to convert gear from 3.5 to 5th. It took a lot of effort but i the best solution i found was a bit simple. Go to the DMG and find the amound and rarity of magic items your party should have based on their level. If their strongest item should be a "very rare" take their 3.5 strongest item and adjust it's stats to an item from the the very rare item list. This could mean that some +4 items would be degraded to +2 or even +1 but thats the way it goes now. Adjust all their other items in the same way and if they end up having more than they should, just make them uncommon magic items that only give minor advantages in the same situations they used to.
Finally, when you fix the magic items issue just make sure the monk gets equal advantages like the rest of the party does. Vow of povetry had a very simple mechanic in 3.5, it just gave you a bit less amount of power you acquire by buying the stuff you wanted based on WBL. It's pretty simple to do the same thing in 5th too.

[kaoskonfety]

Vow of poverty felt, to me, ridiculous. A last ditch attempt to balance monk out by giving them the equivalent of equipment, without needing to give them equipment. I liked the IDEA (some mechanical benefit for playing an actual Ascetic) but the implementation was poor (across the board buff roughly on par or slightly better them Wealth by level).

As a balance mechanic it was fine (for some values of "fine"), as a roleplay tool it was lousy.

The feat may be better replaced with a custom Acolyte or Hermit background where you and your order are know as enlightened asctics (minor hospitality from most common folk) and you treat all lifestyles short of actually starving to death as "comfortable" ("I need nothing more").

For an actual feat giving some sort of bonus for not keeping anything of value (The clothes on your back, a bowl, a pound of rice, a pot in which to cook the rice and, if its cold where you live, a blanket or two) I'd be inclined to focus in on the "Enduring hardship" angle, perhaps 1 to 3 DR (working off of Heavy Armor Master - maybe 1 DR to everything but psychic re:Bear Barbarian, or 3 dr as heavy armor master) or a +1 on all saves (like resilient but broader, and no stat boost).

[Narmoth]

Vow of poverty felt, to me, ridiculous.

I found it much more interesting with the paladin, who actually had items to mis out on

[Unoriginal]

I don't want to be the Bad News Bullywug or the Negative Nilbog, but since your players said it wasn't fair for the guy to lose his Vow when they're going to keep their magic items, I have to point out: if you're putting the characters in 5e, they probably should not keep most of those items.


5e's power level is far different from 3.X's, and the usual arsenal/christmas tree of magic items 3.X characters carry around does not work here. You can have several items, but they won't be as numerous nor as powerful.

[Naanomi]

Use the Boone system to some degree to make up the difference; but ultimately translating characters across editions is always a mess and I prefer a more ‘remake the character at the appropriate level, with some iconic items based on equally applied in some system or another’ rather than direct transfers

[Unoriginal]

Use the Boone system to some degree to make up the difference; but ultimately translating characters across editions is always a mess and I prefer a more ‘remake the character at the appropriate level, with some iconic items based on equally applied in some system or another’ rather than direct transfers

Good point.

Re-making the character from scratch is much better.

[Contrast]

I don't want to be the Bad News Bullywug or the Negative Nilbog, but since your players said it wasn't fair for the guy to lose his Vow when they're going to keep their magic items, I have to point out: if you're putting the characters in 5e, they probably should not keep most of those items.


5e's power level is far different from 3.X's, and the usual arsenal/christmas tree of magic items 3.X characters carry around does not work here. You can have several items, but they won't be as numerous nor as powerful.

This. If you want advice on rules for a vow the basic answer in 5E is 'you get inspiration for roleplaying in accordance with your character traits'. If you want a Vow which keeps a character who refuses equipment level with characters with magical equipment imported from another system then we'd really need to know what that equipment was. Expect it to play havoc with the already precarious challenge rating system.

Honestly if your players aren't happy to lose their equipment I'd suggest just finishing up your current campaign in 3.5 and starting over with new characters in 5e when you start a new campaign.

[Unoriginal]

Basically:

-A 3.X character who doesn't have magic items is seriously handicapped.

-A 5e character who doesn't have magic items is a 5e character.


This. If you want advice on rules for a vow the basic answer in 5E is 'you get inspiration for roleplaying in accordance with your character traits'. If you want a Vow which keeps a character who refuses equipment level with characters with magical equipment imported from another system then we'd really need to know what that equipment was. Expect it to play havoc with the already precarious challenge rating system.

Honestly if your players aren't happy to lose their equipment I'd suggest just finishing up your current campaign in 3.5 and starting over with new characters in 5e when you start a new campaign.

All good points.

[CIDE]

As weird as it may sound Vow of Poverty sounds better on either a Cleric or a Paladin in 5e. The Paladin subclasses already work in a similar manner. May even make it an unarmed/unarmored Paladin sub class. It doesn't work as a feat in 5e and it feels like it'd have the monk stepping on the paladin's toes thematically if you started introcuding vows to their class.

[Sigreid]

What are the 3.x benefits?

[MeeposFire]

What are the 3.x benefits?

Mostly a bunch of mathematical bonuses to mimic many of the basic boosts that items in 3e tended to give that you would be missing by not having items.

Examples include +X to hit and damage with your weapons, an AC bonus, save bonuses, ability score boosts, ability to pierce damage resistance of several types (magic and evil for instance), bonus exalted feats, and other benefits.


Mostly it was to give you the numbers you were missing.

[Damon_Tor]

Mostly a bunch of mathematical bonuses to mimic many of the basic boosts that items in 3e tended to give that you would be missing by not having items.

Examples include +X to hit and damage with your weapons, an AC bonus, save bonuses, ability score boosts, ability to pierce damage resistance of several types (magic and evil for instance), bonus exalted feats, and other benefits.


Mostly it was to give you the numbers you were missing.

The problem there is the interference with the part of 5e philosophy that doesn't assume anything about magic items.

You could have the vow replace missing mundane items of course. A Paladin subclass that gets AC equal to 15+cha while unarmored could be neat. Let him swing a staff at 1d8 or 1d10 two handed. Give him a ribbon where he can sleep in total comfort without bed or shelter and ignore hunger and such.

[sithlordnergal]

I would give them bonuses based on their tier based on what kind of magical items you'd normally find. Personally, I disagree with the posters above who keep talking about the idea that you don't need magic items in 5e games, as it hampers martial classes to the point where they simply can't be used. If they didn't really need such items then classes like the Monk, Druid, and Revised Beast Master wouldn't grant magical damage for their summons/fists/wild shape/ect. That said, here's how I would do it:


Prerequisite: Level 1

Upon taking this feat you can no longer use, own,, or be benefited from weapons, armor, potions, or scrolls of any kind. If you do so you lose the benefits of this feat until you have atoned in some way. In exchange you gain the following benefits:

Level 1) You may spend any number of Hit Dice to heal yourself as a Bonus Action as if you had just completed a Short Rest.

Level 4) You gain +1 to attack and damage with your Unarmed Atrikes and +1 to AC

Level 8) Your unarmed strikes do an additional 1d6 Radiant Damage, and you gain the ability to breathe under water

Level 12) Your bonus to AC and Unarmed Strikes increases to a +2, and you gain a Fly speed qual to your movement speed.

Level 16) Increase the amount of Radiant damage your Unarmed Strikes do to 1d8 and you may cast Spirit Guardians twice per day as if from a 4th level spell slot

Level 20) Your AC and Unarmed Strike bonus damage increases to +3, increase the Radiant Damage of your Unarmed Strikes to do 1d10


I feel like it could be a bit stronger since you're not allowed to use potions, items, or scrolls of any kind, to and including having them used on you.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: The Vow of Poverty means one cannot afford necromancer rates.