[PF] When does fluff interfere with crunch?

[Spore]

Greetings playground,

I have always wanted to test the boundaries of the game, and a fellow player of mine often abuses the possibility to write himself in several NPC allies into his backstory. It feels okay when you start on 10th level that you have a few enemies and allies but sometimes it goes overboard. Now I want to try this (and something else in addition) and want your counsel on that.

First, a list of what my friend played and what was supposedly okayed by the DM:
- Evil Cleric in giant Trade Organization, access to spy network, access to secret cult, was even given a Succubus ally for one year and one day in exchange for an evil plot item we found two sessions in. (for comparison, my character had to sell her afterlife in order to gain a Valkyrie for several days)
- Flesh to stone made Witch (Age 600, looks like 20) with a relationship to the most powerful Wizard in the region, was given a Mage's Tower and access to the Wizard's library (able to write down free spells which are both on the wizard and witch spell list)
- Post apocalyptic hooker that had so many allies and non-group related success that the DM had no idea how to motivate her to go into the wastelands anymore. Had won the favor of one of the two most influental warlords in the region, had several arms deals under her wings. Was ultimatively kicked out of everything by railroading since the DM didn't know how to make her join the group anymore (the group had interest in her but we weren't influential enough to make her come with us).

My DM is very generous to all his players but this guy seems not to utilize but abuse this kind. Do you feel this is okay? Most players get stuff from him in these categories. But I want to use that "bonus" in my backstory.

I always loved the fluff of druids in the Warcraft universe. They are slumbering in the Emerald Dream (i.e. the First World, or the Fey Dimension or whatever you call this for your specific setting) until they are needed. Because of their neutrality component I have always felt this is the coolest way of playing druid because they only interfere when balance is seriously disturbed. I have conceptualized a Storm Druid that would aid the northern barbarians in a war that has been awakened by the advancing war machinery destroying nature, disturbing wild life and the weather changing (mainly due to clerics of the god of tempests casting control weather).

Here's the catch: I want a human and I want him to be several hundred years old without loosing his knowledge about the past, without the Reincarnated Druid archetype and with actual true humans. No Aasimars, no special snowflake races. Using Warforged is my last straw. If there is the need to provide a druid circle in the back regularly casting reincarnate one will be written in. I just dislike the random race chosen. (I can pull off a wise goblin I just don't want to).

Just to clarify because I really ranted quite a bit. How would you feel for me to homebrew a druid circle that perpetually reincarnates themselves (normal costs, maybe special place or material component) as their races of origin in order to protect the land. Maybe they convene to the point of origin every 50 years in order to reincarnate the whole circle. (And it's like a bring your own material components BBQ).

[Edenbeast]

I always promote well written backstories. I usually use the two traits given at first level as a reward. No backstory is no traits, but I won't ask for a novel. If it's a decent paragraph or two describing the character and concept, then it's fine.

Allies and resources incorporated into the campaign is tricky, but possible, and I actually like that, because the player will feel more involved in world. However, it does need to fit in the setting off course, and all within reasonabe boundaries.

Normally there should be some disadvantages as well. In the evil cleric situation, maybe a rival organisation, or his trade network is about to be wrapped up by the police.

Access to a wizards library full of spells is too convenient. It is possible, but then I would provide the wizard and the spellbook (with usefull and less useful spells), and the player has to handle each spell individually to see if he can copy it. For a retry he has to pay the scroll's prize with starting resources. Or I would give a maximum amount of spells he can copy for free.. This a grey area though, there is a reason why players are given starting resources. Finding a wizard's spellbook is part of the loot that normally gets distributed during adventuring. And the starting waelth is based on what a PC of a certain level on average has accumulated during gameplay. As you can see, I never had players actually do this; they write a background and actually pay for the extra spells from their starting wealth, without asking to have them for free. I think they realize it would be abusive.

In your case, slumbering in some other dimension and then wake up 100 years later, for me it would be fine if you can explain the concept. You don't need to explain it by an existing spell or mechanism. If it's interessing, it could be a plot hook for a side quest.

Being 100s years old and not having aged due to this slumbering doesn't give any mechanical benefits. In fact, one disadvantage would be that you have no knowledge of what happened in the world during those 100 years. You would find certain customs strange, and any shift in local politics is new to you. Only that some disturbance woke you up, which is the reason why you're here. I think that makes a interesting and original character concept.

I'm not sure if that answers your question. I'm not an abuser, and won't reward people who try to, so I can't give you any tips on that.

[avr]

Homebrewing/researching a new version of the reincarnate spell seems fine. Even letting the players get hold of the spell seems fine to me on the basis that very few things destroy a player's connection with their character like a forced change of the way the character looks.

[Psyren]

Do you feel this is okay?

No, of course not. Backstory should enable the adventuring, not obviate it, and it should never be equal to a feat, much less more than one. (Several instances of Leadership in this case, for powerful cohorts, and you make them sound even more powerful than the guy they work for which is even worse.)



Just to clarify because I really ranted quite a bit. How would you feel for me to homebrew a druid circle that perpetually reincarnates themselves (normal costs, maybe special place or material component) as their races of origin in order to protect the land. Maybe they convene to the point of origin every 50 years in order to reincarnate the whole circle. (And it's like a bring your own material components BBQ).

Since you ask, I would personally not be in favor as part of the natural order is the parents teaching the children what they need to know and then dying to make room for them. To do otherwise is not befitting of nature and would only serve to attract attention of a psychopomp or inevitable sort.

But for this concept, a homebrew Greater Reincarnate that lets you choose your race would probably be the way to go, yes.

[Crake]

Sounds like you want the wedded to history feat. It offers a variety of abilities depending on the fluff you want for your immortality, one of which is a lore-like ability. It doesn't come with any significant fluff changes, you're just... immortal. You don't die of old age, and gain no aging penalties or bonuses. It is in dragon magazine, which is for 3.5, so you'll have to beg your DM to let you use it, but it sounds like exactly what you want. Dragon Magazine 354 if you want to look it up.

[atemu1234]

Sounds like you want the wedded to history feat. It offers a variety of abilities depending on the fluff you want for your immortality, one of which is a lore-like ability. It doesn't come with any significant fluff changes, you're just... immortal. You don't die of old age, and gain no aging penalties or bonuses. It is in dragon magazine, which is for 3.5, so you'll have to beg your DM to let you use it, but it sounds like exactly what you want. Dragon Magazine 354 if you want to look it up.

It's pretty far from broken; I mean, really.

This is D&D - where immortality is worth less than a bonus feat.

[torrasque666]

Plus, you can make the argument for Dragon material based on the fact that its published by Paizo. The guys who made pathfinder, the game (it appears) you're already playing. So its more like taking sister material than anything else. And probably more in line with the Paizo devs design goals.

[Spore]

It's pretty far from broken; I mean, really.

This is D&D - where immortality is worth less than a bonus feat.


Plus, you can make the argument for Dragon material based on the fact that its published by Paizo. The guys who made pathfinder, the game (it appears) you're already playing. So its more like taking sister material than anything else. And probably more in line with the Paizo devs design goals.

Then again, core line Immortality is a 20th level wizard arcane discovery.

[Psyren]

It's also an artifact. (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicArtifactsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Sun%20Orchid%2 0Elixir) Even if one could get it for a feat back in 3.5 Paizo, that doesn't necessarily mean PF would allow the same thing today.

[Drynwyn]

Perpetual longevity is often poorly done from a balance perspective, because it feels like something that should be difficult to obtain, but has essentially zero impact on your character mechanically, as most campaigns don't last enough in game years for people to die of old age (in most cases).

Generally I'll just say "Sure, whatever" if a player wants it and has a reasonable explanation for how they obtained it, if it only applies to them. It simply doesn't affect the game enough to justify making it a capstone that gates you off from other abilities that make you dramatically more powerful.

Obviously, it doesn't work for every setting, but if a character wants to be immortal and old, sure, give it to them.

[Spore]

Perpetual longevity is often poorly done from a balance perspective, because it feels like something that should be difficult to obtain, but has essentially zero impact on your character mechanically, as most campaigns don't last enough in game years for people to die of old age (in most cases).

You really can abuse the fact that you just KNOW your people. Your backstory can have an arbitrary length and a gigantic amount of plot hooks and possibilities for allies which make your character this much more powerful.

Without the need or approval for Leadership you might know your personal crafter, you might have several children and friends. You can even have a sacred grove under you that is your responsibility (with the circle that is used for True Reincarnation in it) and using Wild Empathy to literally build up an army of woodland creatures:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNu_kqxqbew

It's over the top silly but have you seen what house cats do to 1st level wizards?

[Psyren]

Perpetual longevity is often poorly done from a balance perspective, because it feels like something that should be difficult to obtain, but has essentially zero impact on your character mechanically, as most campaigns don't last enough in game years for people to die of old age (in most cases).

Generally I'll just say "Sure, whatever" if a player wants it and has a reasonable explanation for how they obtained it, if it only applies to them. It simply doesn't affect the game enough to justify making it a capstone that gates you off from other abilities that make you dramatically more powerful.

Obviously, it doesn't work for every setting, but if a character wants to be immortal and old, sure, give it to them.

Thing is, something feeling powerful is reason enough to restrict it, whether or not it actually is powerful or not. Humans are inherently irrational creatures and often make meaningful decisions based purely on how something feels. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxfkWZPAUg4) And so it behooves designers to do the same if they want their product to not be perceived negatively.

So yes, immortality probably has no real impact on the majority of campaigns; age categories themselves rarely do as well. But that's all the more reason why easily circumventing mortality should be left up to individual GMs/campaigns to allow or disallow and made difficult as a baseline, since that is what the average GM would expect to see given its difficulty to acquire in most fiction.

[Spore]

Then again being a Druid 9 (if True Reincarnate is 5th level) with knowledge of secret spells that allow perpetual life isn't hardly a thing that is easy to obtain. Also it is not immortality. A lot can happen in 50 years. Druids die, new druids are entering the circle and you may not survive as long in order to reincarnate again. (Ressing between cycles would be forbidden).

[Psyren]

I would put an effect like that higher than 5th. Maybe 7th, on par with Limited Wish, since Limited Wish does have the power to muck around with random die rolls, though even that is imperfect. And 7th-level spells are high enough that this would only be attainable for the kind of folks you could get away with calling "archdruids."

Surviving long enough to reincarnate again is more or less a moot point though - Remember, PF reincarnate works even if you died of old age, and it works from body fragments like Resurrection in the case of a particularly messy death. Thus it'd be extremely hard to put someone beyond its reach, especially if they have the backing of an organization of powerful spellcasters.

[Âmesang]

I had contemplated attempting some-sort of immortality for a character, starting with a contingent reincarnation augmented with wish after reaching venerable age (the idea being that the character would reincarnate into a young-adult version of her own body, albeit with the requisite character level loss), then follow it up with the spell kissed by the ages to cease aging all together (would probably need her quasit familiar to cast it for her from a scroll via Use Magic Device, and her present ring of counterspells is just the right price for the required focus).

I wouldn't expect to do any of this until epic-level which is practically end-of-game, anyway. :smalltongue:

[elonin]

The 100 year old character who has been asleep for most of that time isn't a bad story if the player is serious about taking that challenge. Avatar AAng is a good example of this.

[Jakman217]

Greetings playground,
- Evil Cleric in giant Trade Organization, access to spy network, access to secret cult, was even given a Succubus ally for one year and one day in exchange for an evil plot item we found two sessions in. (for comparison, my character had to sell her afterlife in order to gain a Valkyrie for several days)


A bit much, but not too unreasonable so long as there was a fair time requirement for everything. For an evil cleric, having access to a secret cult is kind of expected a bit (particularly if it's to their god). The succubus, not as much, but a bit more reasonable if it's purely non-combat/roleplay and/or she was not particularly strong in combat.



- Flesh to stone made Witch (Age 600, looks like 20) with a relationship to the most powerful Wizard in the region, was given a Mage's Tower and access to the Wizard's library (able to write down free spells which are both on the wizard and witch spell list)


Age thing, no problem, doesn't mean much in the long run and not too horrible. The free spells, not a good thing, particularly if she was allowed to use the wizard spells. The only reason for this to be allowed reasonably would be, again, large time requirements to get things.



- Post apocalyptic hooker that had so many allies and non-group related success that the DM had no idea how to motivate her to go into the wastelands anymore. Had won the favor of one of the two most influental warlords in the region, had several arms deals under her wings. Was ultimatively kicked out of everything by railroading since the DM didn't know how to make her join the group anymore (the group had interest in her but we weren't influential enough to make her come with us).

This is probably the head scratcher. I wolud say no, but it seems as though this guy kind of got his just desserts at the end when he couldn't find a reason to join. But so much access and power does seem questionable, particularly for a hooker.

My DM is very generous to all his players but this guy seems not to utilize but abuse this kind. Do you feel this is okay? Most players get stuff from him in these categories. But I want to use that "bonus" in my backstory.

No, this isn't really ok. Using your backstory to get odd or interesting thinks you wouldn't ordinarily get isn't inherently bad, but starting out with a leadership level of NPC allies is not cool. It's kind of the reason I don't like GURPS to an extent, as you could build a reasonable character who is cool... or you could be filthy rich and buy what everyone else has a few times over and abuse the system to everyone elses detriment.


Just to clarify because I really ranted quite a bit. How would you feel for me to homebrew a druid circle that perpetually reincarnates themselves (normal costs, maybe special place or material component) as their races of origin in order to protect the land. Maybe they convene to the point of origin every 50 years in order to reincarnate the whole circle. (And it's like a bring your own material components BBQ).

Overall I'd say this is relatively reasonable, but depends on both the overall level of the campaign, and how close you are to this druid circle. If you could feasibly ask for their help and expect it within a day, then I'd say it's probably questionable. If it would replace the spending of resources it's probably a no go. If it's a way to spend resources I'd say it's reasonable for the most part.