Fair Trade for Monk Unarmed Progression

[Lvl45DM!]

Some of my players wish to punch the bad guys. Since I run a city campaign this is actually a viable option, less monsters with DR and whatnot, and plenty of situations where they are supposed to be unarmed.

But short of Superior Unarmed Strike, which is a feat tax that the non fighters can't afford, and its crummy anyway, I was wondering if the Playground had ideas for Class features that could be fairly traded for a Monks unarmed damage progression for a Ranger, a Paladin and a Rogue.

I was thinking the Ranger trading Combat Styles, the Paladin trading Divine Grace or Lay on hands and the Rogue trading trapfinding and trapsense.

Thoughts?

[Arael666]

Trading weapon proficiencies would probably be enough.

[Lalliman]

^ I second Arael. You could even give it for free without upsetting the balance too much. Scaling unarmed damage isn't all that powerful. It takes until mid level before it surpasses one-handed weapons in damage, and suffers at all levels from being more difficult to enhance.

[Chronos]

It shouldn't matter too much for the rogue: If you're getting your Sneak Attack dice, then the base damage of your weapon doesn't matter much. A rogue can punch quite effectively even without any explicit support for it.

[Curmudgeon]

But short of Superior Unarmed Strike, which is a feat tax that the non fighters can't afford, and its crummy anyway...
What's so bad about Superior Unarmed Strike? It's one feat and a little bit of gold (Bracers of Striking in Magic of Faerûn on pages 155-156 treat the wearer as having Improved Unarmed Strike for only 1,310 gp). Superior Unarmed Strike gives the same damage progression as a Small Monk through level 19. This progression is independent of size, so if you're already Small (or smaller) you're doing very well. A Whisper Gnome Rogue with SUS and maybe a Necklace of Natural Attacks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) can deal respectable unarmed damage, with no Monk levels.

[Snowbluff]

Don't gold cost of feat items scale with the number of prerequisites?

[Curmudgeon]

Don't gold cost of feat items scale with the number of prerequisites?
I'm not referring to guidelines for creating a custom item which grants a crafter-selected feat, but rather a single existing item with a fixed price.

[nedz]

Barbarian can grab the Trip or Grapple MOs via various Totems

Druids can wild shape and punch things. This might not be so good in an urban setting though.

Fighter - just buy the feats.

Ranger Shape-Changing ACF (UA 58)

Martial Rogue - just buy the feats.

Or just play an unarmed Swordsage.

Alternatively they can dip two levels of Monk, and then multi-class.

[Talionis]

Ascetic Knight feat lets your Paladin Levels count for Unarmed Damage Progression. I think there is also an Ascetic Rogue feat as well.

So you really don't need to bend any rules. If there are requirements for the feats that require additional feats or multi classing, I'd just waive those for the feats.

[Stegyre]

Thoughts?
Unarmed Swordsage gains the monk's unarmed strike progression at the "cost" of light armor proficiency, for what that's worth.

[Fizban]

Well since others have already made the simplest and most obvious suggestion (trade the weapon proficiencies), I'll make the radical one: just give it to them, and cook up an option of similar value for the players who don't want to punch. That would be something that lets them look cool and operate without being visibly armed without actually making them more powerful. Like, IUS+SUS for the punchers, Eschew Materials/"Ignore Divine Focus"+Spell Thematics for the casters, and uh, something for projectile users. Rock Throwing?

Curmudgeon mentioned the Bracers of Striking, but from the same book is an item that doesn't require a feat to beat 1d3: Magic of Faerun has the Ring of Might which lets you punch people for 1d8 at 4,000gp. It doesn't scale or do magic on it's own (note that the Bracers cost double anyway), but it's good enough if you just want to punch someone occasionally. If they really like punching they might buy a Necklace of Natural Attacks to go with it.

[emeraldstreak]

^ I second Arael. You could even give it for free without upsetting the balance too much.

That's got to be the most ignorant post on giantitp for the week.

Monk's unarmed damage is by far its best feature. By stacking level increases to get the lvl 20 max, and stacking effective size increases, people have been able to reach dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of d10s per hit.

[Red Fel]

Interestingly, PF has done something like this with its Variant Multiclassing (VMC) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement#TOC-Variant-Multiclassing). In essence, you give up half of your feat progression, and gain various class features of a second class at reduced level. This could be easily adapted.

In the VMC system, a character taking Monk as a secondary class gains: At 1st level, his Monk abilities do not work while wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load.
At 3rd level, he gains the unarmed strike progression of a Monk at his level -2.
At 7th level, he gains Evasion.
At 11th level, he gains the ki pool of a Monk at his level -2.
At 15th level, he gains a +3 dodge bonus to AC.
At 19th level, he gains Improved Evasion.
Now, your PCs don't want all of that. So trim it. Tell them it will cost one of their feats, give them an unarmed progression of a Monk of their level -2, and be unusable when wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load. As a bonus, anyone who takes this gets IUS for free, so they're never non-proficient with unarmed strikes.

Boom. Easy unarmed strike progression.

[ComaVision]

That's got to be the most ignorant post on giantitp for the week.

Monk's unarmed damage is by far its best feature. By stacking level increases to get the lvl 20 max, and stacking effective size increases, people have been able to reach dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of d10s per hit.

Better ban kobolds too because Pun-Pun. If anything, all weapon damage should just scale with BaB, including unarmed.

[Curmudgeon]

Better ban kobolds too because Pun-Pun. If anything, all weapon damage should just scale with BaB, including unarmed.
That's getting pretty far off the topic. emeraldstreak's point is that Monk unarmed damage is a worthwhile class feature (even if the rest of the class is generally poor), and too valuable to give away for free; that's in accord with the OP's (Lvl45DM!) request.

What you're basically saying is that you would prefer a mechanism more like 4e D&D, and you don't find this question interesting. So why post here, rather than in your own thread?

[ComaVision]

That's getting pretty far off the topic. emeraldstreak's point is that Monk unarmed damage is a worthwhile class feature (even if the rest of the class is generally poor), and too valuable to give away for free; that's in accord with the OP's (Lvl45DM!) request.

What you're basically saying is that you would prefer a mechanism more like 4e D&D, and you don't find this question interesting. So why post here, rather than in your own thread?

What I'm basically saying is that isn't a valid reason to restrict something. Additionally, I don't think it would unbalance anything if it was added on to a weak class like the paladin, ranger, or rogue.

[Curmudgeon]

Additionally, I don't think it would unbalance anything if it was added on to a weak class like the paladin, ranger, or rogue.
With Superior Unarmed Strike and one spell cast daily (Greater Mighty Wallop) a Whisper Gnome Rogue at level 16 can deal 12d6 unarmed damage with every hit. That's base damage, without needing to qualify for even more (8d6+16) damage from sneak attack. Add Snap Kick and the Whisper Gnome gets to do at least two of those hits even on a standard action attack.

You don't think making the Rogue's base damage greater than their conditional damage bonus from sneak attack is unbalancing? Feats are precious to a Rogue, so not all will normally pursue fisticuffs. You're proposing to give them the equivalent of 2 feats, and therefore make every Rogue, Paladin, and Ranger good at fisticuffs. They'll all line up each morning with their level 3 Pearl of Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower) to have the party Sorcerer/Wizard cast Greater Mighty Wallop on them. They'll all fight unarmed by preference, because dealing hundreds of points of damage every round without needing any weapon expenditures is a no-brainer.

http://img.informer.com/icons/png/48/909/909744.png

[ComaVision]

With Superior Unarmed Strike and one spell cast daily (Greater Mighty Wallop) a Whisper Gnome Rogue at level 16 can deal 12d6 unarmed damage with every hit. That's base damage, without needing to qualify for even more (8d6+16) damage from sneak attack. Add Snap Kick and the Whisper Gnome gets to do at least two of those hits even on a standard action attack.

You don't think making the Rogue's base damage greater than their conditional damage bonus from sneak attack is unbalancing? Feats are precious to a Rogue, so not all will normally pursue fisticuffs. You're proposing to give them the equivalent of 2 feats, and therefore make every Rogue, Paladin, and Ranger good at fisticuffs. They'll all line up each morning with their level 3 Pearl of Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower) to have the party Sorcerer/Wizard cast Greater Mighty Wallop on them. They'll all fight unarmed by preference, because dealing hundreds of points of damage every round without needing any weapon expenditures is a no-brainer.

http://img.informer.com/icons/png/48/909/909744.png

And why's that a problem? The party Sorcerer/Wizard still has an incredible amount of options that the Fighter/Ranger/Rogue doesn't. Does it really matter whether they are dealing 200 damage on a full attack or 20,000? I don't disallow uberchargers just because they make base rogues look like trash on damage.

[Fizban]

I'm quite surprised at that response actually, Curmudgeon. The factor pushing that damage over the top isn't free Superior Unarmed Strike, it's the assumption that the character has a 16th level caster using a specific spell on them every day, and it applies just as much to the Monk as the Rogue. Yet no mention of how the Monk is getting shortchanged (which is the real problem if it's supposed to be one of their good features), or the very real factor that maybe the wizard just won't get the spell because it's not his job to enable your build (base DnD may assume cooperation, but and individual build should not). Normally people would assume a custom continuous item but that wouldn't make for such a sensational comparison. I'm a bit disappointed. Also Pearls of Power don't work on Sorcerers, and a Sorcerer would be rather unlikely to have that spell unless for some reason they were using it themselves.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm quite surprised at that response actually, Curmudgeon. The factor pushing that damage over the top isn't free Superior Unarmed Strike, it's the assumption that the character has a 16th level caster using a specific spell on them every day, and it applies just as much to the Monk as the Rogue.
Oh, I lumped a bunch of things together for brevity; the assumption is in the spell, not necessarily in any caster. The Rogue can acquire a wand if necessary, and I've done so with a couple of my Rogue characters. It's only a 3rd level spell, so Use Magic Device's Use a Wand application is perfectly suitable to get the spell effect; it just tends to be expensive as a recurring cost compared to one-time purchase of a Pearl of Power if you've got a Wizard (or sometimes Sorcerer) in the party. Absent uncommon build options to make UMD available to them, the Monk and Ranger do either need to beg for party spellcaster indulgence or pay an NPC caster each time. And I know that Sorcerers normally can't make use of Pearls of Power, but sometimes they take Arcane Preparation and want the benefit of Greater Mighty Wallop for themselves.

Greater Mighty Wallop is a sufficiently useful spell that most characters who need it will find a way to gain its benefit. It's at the same level of desirability as Alter Self and Divine Power.

[Fizban]

Hmm. Upon further reflection GMWallop looks to be the strongest damage buff for weapons, so I'll accept the idea that it's a spell any attacking character ought to seek out. But the more the focus is on how strong an individual spell is, the more obvious it becomes that the problem is the spell and not whatever it's comboing with. Free SUS still only hurts the Monk (eh) and 2 handing builds (already top of the heap for melee) as long as everyone has it, and even then only at higher levels. Non punching people can just get a mace or a maul and for the same benefit if GMWallop is around. I'd still make it an even distribution of freebies for non-punchers anyway.

[ericgrau]

Some of my players wish to punch the bad guys. Since I run a city campaign this is actually a viable option, less monsters with DR and whatnot, and plenty of situations where they are supposed to be unarmed.

But short of Superior Unarmed Strike, which is a feat tax that the non fighters can't afford, and its crummy anyway, I was wondering if the Playground had ideas for Class features that could be fairly traded for a Monks unarmed damage progression for a Ranger, a Paladin and a Rogue.
Punch the bad guys? Not grapple them? Not stunning fist them? There's nothing to trade then. Monk unarmed damage progression is worse than weapon damage so this is a downgrade. As stated it's less enhance-able than weapons and by the time it catches up to weapons in damage there are a lot more enhancements you can pile on the weapons to still come out very much ahead.

You're going to have to upgrade the damage a bit or else find special things you can do unarmed that you can't do armed to make it an actual benefit. If not grabbing foes, then something else. Maybe a super flurry that works only with unarmed strike damage, not even on monk weapons nor grapple attempts. Perhaps allowing something ok on a standard action too, similar to snap kick. That's how Final Fantasy 1 did it. Except let them do it in armor or you'll have a 2nd can of worms to deal with on top of figuring out how to replace weapons (hint: monk AC progression is likewise behind).


That's got to be the most ignorant post on giantitp for the week.

Monk's unarmed damage is by far its best feature. By stacking level increases to get the lvl 20 max, and stacking effective size increases, people have been able to reach dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of d10s per hit.
And then an ubercharger might do more. Question is, is the OP's party going to optimize down either road at all?

[Droopy McCool]

Ascetic Knight feat lets your Paladin Levels count for Unarmed Damage Progression. I think there is also an Ascetic Rogue feat as well.

So you really don't need to bend any rules. If there are requirements for the feats that require additional feats or multi classing, I'd just waive those for the feats.

This is probably the best way w/o homebrew, but you have to dip Monk. Besides Ascetic Knight and Rogue, there's Ascetic Hunter (for Ranger). All in CAd, and they stack your Monk/X levels to determine unarmed damage.

There is also Ascetic Mage (for Sorcerers), but that stacks your Monk/Sorc levels to determine your AC bonus (now based on Charisma).

[emeraldstreak]

Non punching people can just get a mace or a maul and for the same benefit if GMWallop is around.

Not the same, because unarmed strike's base of 2d10 is roughly doubly higher than those of bludgeoning weapons. This relative disparity stays, and costs dozens or even hundreds of damage per strike after effective size optimization. The unarmed strike feature has the highest base damage die in the game, hence it is better optimized for size than any other weapon. It's a superior class feature when it comes to martials and that's that.





And then an ubercharger might do more. Question is, is the OP's party going to optimize down either road at all?

Actually, I once did the math and here's the thing: the ubercharger build can be improved by replacing Figher level(s) with alignment-appropriate Monk levels (ie Chaos Monk).

The classic Fighter/Barb into Frenzied Berserker ubercharger build's damage mostly comes from Strength and Power Attack. Damage size unarmed strike optimization easily overcompensates what Power Attack damage is lost by adding some Monk.

The problem is unarmed strike doesn't increase Strength damage the way two-handed weapons do. The key is to find a way to add this feature to something that has unarmed strike damage progression.

It just so happens the Scorpion weapon property in MiC might be able to do it. While we don't know for certain what weapons can be affected by it, all melee monk weapons would be a fair guess. At which point, a quarterstaff will both be two-handed, and optimizable for unarmed strike damage; resulting in a Chaos Monk/Barb/maybe some Fighter if there's room going into Frenzied Berserker a better ubercharger than the classic one.

[ericgrau]

Good job. But I mean we should be comparing (relatively) unoptimized damage to unoptimized damage to help give the OP a fair amount of damage for going weaponless.

Or what I really mean is comparing damage at the optimization level that he plays with.