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Rowanomicon
2007-06-06, 11:10 PM
Over the years I've seen a lot of really complicated ideas for bringing the Fighter intot he same power range as primary spell casters. SOme of those ideas have been really good, but they all have one thing in common: they involve re-writing part of the system.
I'm sure it's been done by someone out there before (most things have), but here's my really simple suggestions:
Give them all good saves.
Give them 2 more skill points per level.
Give them d12 HD.
Give them a 1/5th HD dodge bonus to AC.

I, personally, think that anyone should be able to take some combination of the above abilities, add them to the Fighter class, and come up with a good and balanced Base PC Class.

What do you think?
And what would your combination of those four be?
Oh, and if you have other suggestion for really simple ways of improving them feel free to say them, but if it's complicated just make your own thread.

wormwood
2007-06-06, 11:31 PM
My DM quite recently said something along the lines of "Holy ****, really!?" when the fighter/hexblade/blackguard of our group made 4 consecutive saves against some really high-level baddies' spells and took no damage at all. He had Mettle (from hexblade) and some insane save bonuses from hexblade and blackguard doubling his charisma bonus. He basically wandered up in front of 3 casters of equal level and told them he was not impressed.

Higher saves are great. Higher saves + Mettle is awe-inspiring. Just my thoughts.

Demented
2007-06-06, 11:49 PM
Really simple three step plan for fixing fighters:
• Let them choose their bonus feats each day.
• Give them access to every splatbook under the sun.
• Cower under a table as they take care of business.

Matthew
2007-06-07, 12:02 AM
Yeah, I am especially on board with all Good Saves (after all, it takes a certain steadfast will to actually fight over running away). Currently I'm thinking give them Two Weapon Fighting and it's Iterations for free at the appropiate BAB and the ability to retain Movement 30' in Medium and Heavy Armour, but with 3x and 2x Run Speeds respectively.

Definitely let Feats such as Dodge and Weapon Focus scale, +1 every four levels (1, 5, 9, 13, 17). I wouldn't increase their Hit Die, though, and more Skill Points really applies across the board.

Orzel
2007-06-07, 03:45 AM
I tend to bump their will save, give them 2 skill points, and let them ignore some STR, DEX, CON, and BAB requirements.

Bumping thier AC and HP does nothing but overpower them versus other full BABers.

At fighters don't need good reflex. Leave that for light armor classes.

Caewil
2007-06-07, 04:16 AM
Very nice, but how does this help the fighter get over his mobility issues to land a full-attack. Boosted saves are very nice, but after he's saved, he's still got to kill the wizard/dragon with a fly speed more than twice his, even with boots. And that only helps him mke one attack.

Lord Zentei
2007-06-07, 04:16 AM
I'm not sure about the all good saves and dodge bonus bit, though d12 HD and more skill points (4+Int) are both good ideas.

If Fighters get all good saves, how are you going to improve Monks in that case? They too need a boost, and their saves are one of their few true strengths. Their dodge bonus is also one of their few claims to fame, even though it sucks (seriously, even at 20th level they only get as much of a bonus as a chain shirt, and they lose many of their abilities wearing any additional armour).

An additional possibility would be to allow them to spend skill points on purchasing up to one additional Fighter Bonus Feat for the levels when they don't normally gain them. I reckon 4 skill points per Feat would be fair.

Allowing them to pick their Feats each day reduces their individuality too much, however (and this was the original purpose of Feats) and is somewhat illogical as Feats represent nuances of combat style developed through long experience and training.

Hazkali
2007-06-07, 04:50 AM
Whilst these fixes are moderatley effective, they don't take into account the fact that fighters are one of the better classes from 1st level to ~10th level, and then quickly go downhill as casters gain the ability to do übermunchkined amounts of damage and eventually death effects.

So I think any fix has to really iron out the crease, as opposed to further bending it.

Matthew
2007-06-07, 06:17 AM
I'm not sure about the all good saves and dodge bonus bit
I would say it's the kind of thing likely to end up in most Melee Classes.


If Fighters get all good saves, how are you going to improve Monks in that case? They too need a boost, and their saves are one of their few true strengths. Their dodge bonus is also one of their few claims to fame, even though it sucks (seriously, even at 20th level they only get as much of a bonus as a chain shirt, and they lose many of their abilities wearing any additional armour).

Full BAB?


Allowing them to pick their Feats each day reduces their individuality too much, however (and this was the original purpose of Feats) and is somewhat illogical as Feats represent nuances of combat style developed through long experience and training.

I would tend to agree.

Vaniel
2007-06-07, 08:46 AM
Bringing up to par with primary casters?

Fighters are NOT Casters, they're Swordsman, Bowman, etc. I'm all for giving them a boost, as long as they don't overshadow other base classes.

Is the fighter really that underpowered? In my opinion, there no WORTHY feat trees that are actually worth taking at higher level. Give them better feats at higher levels, and the fighter has no problem.

Fighters all good saves? What about the monk? That's actually one of their strengths. Why play monks now!?

You wanna know a really easy fighter fix?
Don't take 10 levels or more of Fighter, make it a half-base class.

Of course, I wouldn't take more than 5 levels of Fighter unless a certain prestige class required a great amount of feats to access too.

JMHO (No flaming:smallwink: )

/Vaniel

P.S: I hope that this does not go into another one of those Fighters vs Casters threads...:smalleek:

Matthew
2007-06-07, 10:06 AM
Well, you know, Monks get Flurry and Stunning Fist and all that other Martial Arts mumbo jumbo, not to mention access to stealth based skills and such. No real reason they should have better saves than a Fighter, given that the Fighter ought to be relying as much on Reflexes as Fortitude, not to mention the strength of will it requires to face down a Dragon with a Sword or Spear or somesuch thing, or stand in a battle line and receive the enemy. There's a good case for giving the Fighter better Saves, both mechanically and logically, that's for sure.

Rowanomicon
2007-06-07, 04:07 PM
I've always thought that giving the Fighter all good saves and 2 extra skill points was a good idea.
However you'd still have to be crazy to not multiclass.
Maybe if every level from level 10 on had a bonus feat.
That actually wouldn't be too unbalancing as, like people ahve said, there's no really powerful feats.
It still would, however, be quite useful.
Also, I think that Fighters should be allowed to choose any feat as a bonus feat.

Lord Zentei
2007-06-07, 05:15 PM
I've always thought that giving the Fighter all good saves and 2 extra skill points was a good idea.
However you'd still have to be crazy to not multiclass.
Maybe if every level from level 10 on had a bonus feat.

Ah, I was going to post something along these lines, but the server kept timing out.

Here we go:


I would say it's the kind of thing likely to end up in most Melee Classes.

Well, in that case give the melee classes a boost, including the Monk, who would stack it with his previous bonus.


Full BAB?

That would be a good idea as their mediocre damage dealing ability is a large part of the problem.


Whilst these fixes are moderatley effective, they don't take into account the fact that fighters are one of the better classes from 1st level to ~10th level, and then quickly go downhill as casters gain the ability to do übermunchkined amounts of damage and eventually death effects.

So I think any fix has to really iron out the crease, as opposed to further bending it.

A reasonable point... so we need to improve the Fighter as he advances, not a flat bonus. Reasonable, since Feats don't rise so astronomically in power as spells do.

Possibilities:
Gain Dodge AC as the Fighter progresses. Say, +1 at level 5, +2 at level 10, +3 at level 15 and +4 at level 20.
Feats improve in effectiveness as level goes up. Some already do this (such as power attack), though the caster gains additional damage without having to reduce chances of success... This might involve an unacceptable amount of work, though.
Instead, allow the Fighter to gain feats more rapidly during the higher levels. As for instance: for levels 11+ he gains a feat per level instead of one per two levels.
As an added bonus, consider special abilities such as those of the Knight in PH2. A small set of different "advancement lists" could be used (each character selecting one). In this case, the Barbarian and Knight would become specializations within the Fighter class, hearkening back to 2nd edition. Just add more themed lists for variety.


EDIT: and a concatination to avoid double posting:


Well, you know, Monks get Flurry and Stunning Fist and all that other Martial Arts mumbo jumbo, not to mention access to stealth based skills and such. No real reason they should have better saves than a Fighter, given that the Fighter ought to be relying as much on Reflexes as Fortitude, not to mention the strength of will it requires to face down a Dragon with a Sword or Spear or somesuch thing, or stand in a battle line and receive the enemy. There's a good case for giving the Fighter better Saves, both mechanically and logically, that's for sure.

The flurry is rather inaccurate at low levels, and the Stunning Fist is available as a Fighter Bonus Feat (although it normally requires BAB +8, Str and Dex 13 amongst other things).

The good saves are, of course, supposed to reflect the fact that the Monk relies on mental discipline and reflexes and not physical armour, in the spirit of Kung Fu movies.

Matthew
2007-06-07, 05:32 PM
Yeah, that's true, but it that could just as easily be modelled by taking Iron Will (or whatever) and Monks get more than just Flurry and Stunning fist.

The Classes that have the 'Good' Saves in question are usually the ones that rely on the associated Attributes, making for huge gaps between those with Poor and Good saves.

Deepblue706
2007-06-07, 05:42 PM
Not to uh...toot my own horn, or anything, but I have a fighter fix on this website that is fairly simple, in my opinion (simplicity does seem to be the goal, here). While it may need some more work, I think it's a fair start on what has been discussed here (scaling AC, better saves, armored mobility). Maybe it's not your style, but perhaps taking a look may help inspire the development of some of your own ideas, which may end up being better. Plus, I like comments :smallbiggrin:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45180

Matthew
2007-06-07, 05:51 PM
Yer greedy Homebrewer ye, Deepblue, your Thread is on the first page!

Arakune
2007-06-07, 06:16 PM
give the fighter the ability to be able to take feats that gives "ki" attacks, making him able to do some damage to those pesky DR 5/+1.

some huge boost on his attacks with some "special attacks" are also a good choice.

Lord Zentei
2007-06-07, 06:58 PM
Yeah, that's true, but it that could just as easily be modelled by taking Iron Will (or whatever) and Monks get more than just Flurry and Stunning fist.

The Classes that have the 'Good' Saves in question are usually the ones that rely on the associated Attributes, making for huge gaps between those with Poor and Good saves.

One thing that is really lacking in D&D is an intermediate save for fine tuning this sort of stuff.

The poor save has one increment per three levels, starting with +0, the good save has one per two levels, starting with a +2. The intermediate one would presumably be one per 2½ levels, starting at +1.

Matthew
2007-06-07, 07:23 PM
To be honest, I think Saves should scale like Base Attack Bonus or Skills. The 1-12 Save thing just sucks compared to Caster Level. It's inherently unbalanced at higher levels of play.

If they behaved like Skills you would also be able to customise your Saves.

Lord Zentei
2007-06-07, 07:37 PM
To be honest, I think Saves should scale like Base Attack Bonus or Skills. The 1-12 Save thing just sucks compared to Caster Level. It's inherently unbalanced at higher levels of play.

If they behaved like Skills you would also be able to customise your Saves.

Well I'd agree if we're overhauling the system that much, a customizable skills and saves system would be ideal. Of course, it would be possible to cheeze on min/maxing, though with careful design, that could at least be migitated or would render such character less versatile.

I was at one point thinking about the possibilities of a GURPS style d20 system with full customization, though arguably it's a bit beyond the scope of this thread.

Basically, my idea was that you gained nothing but points on advancing a level, and BAB, hit points, skills, feats, etc were all bought with these points (1 Feat = usually 4 skill points, due to the many feats that give +2 to two skills (though more powerful ones might be more expensive), +1 BAB = 1 Feat = 4 skill points (due to Weapon Focus), +1 save = 2 skill points (since we have Feats that give +2 to save, and the feat costs 4 points), hit points = 1 point each, etc). There were simple restrictions on how much you could spend on each category per level, and there were prerequisites for the more fancy stuff. Never got round to finishing it, though.

Catch
2007-06-07, 07:52 PM
Here's a simpler Fighter fix: Play a Warblade.

Matthew
2007-06-07, 08:46 PM
Well I'd agree if we're overhauling the system that much, a customizable skills and saves system would be ideal. Of course, it would be possible to cheeze on min/maxing, though with careful design, that could at least be migitated or would render such character less versatile.

I was at one point thinking about the possibilities of a GURPS style d20 system with full customization, though arguably it's a bit beyond the scope of this thread.

Basically, my idea was that you gained nothing but points on advancing a level, and BAB, hit points, skills, feats, etc were all bought with these points (1 Feat = usually 4 skill points, due to the many feats that give +2 to two skills (though more powerful ones might be more expensive), +1 BAB = 1 Feat = 4 skill points (due to Weapon Focus), +1 save = 2 skill points (since we have Feats that give +2 to save, and the feat costs 4 points), hit points = 1 point each, etc). There were simple restrictions on how much you could spend on each category per level, and there were prerequisites for the more fancy stuff. Never got round to finishing it, though.
Ah yes. well there is a proposal like that knocking about the Wizards Boards...

It's actually an old concept, first implemented for D&D in Skills and Powers via Character points. It's absolutely the way forward.


Here's a simpler Fighter fix: Play a Warblade.

No thanks.

Deepblue706
2007-06-07, 10:22 PM
Yer greedy Homebrewer ye, Deepblue, your Thread is on the first page!

Gfawhaw!

Well, I often find myself contributing to these conversations - I figured simply simply pointing to my ideas rather than stating them again to be more efficient :smalltongue:

KSA
2007-06-09, 10:31 PM
I'm with those that say the fighter is a good class the first 10 levels or so, and making changes like all good saves or d12 HD would throw off the balance. Giving them d12 HD would make the barbarian useless, as a fighter with well chosen feats already outshines even a raging barbarian in battle (the DM Guide says so). The large HD is one of the barbarian's best features.

One other thing to consider: even at high levels, a party needs a frontline melee combatant, and fighters are undoubtedly the best melee characters. Your party spellcasters are responsible for neutralizing enemy magic users and other superbaddies, and the fighter is responsible for the more conventional monsters. It's a good system.

So I think that the fighter, even as it is now, is a necessarry component of the party. A few more good high level feats would be nice, but to be honest, I'm content.

SurlySeraph
2007-06-10, 01:47 AM
Good saves are a good idea. Dodge I'm not sure about, but maybe. What I think fighters really need is a boost to their signature ability - Weapon Specialization. Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization should scale and/or have higher tiers, something like Perfect Weapon Specialization

Blackbrrd
2007-06-14, 01:23 PM
What I dislike most about fighters is the 2 skills pr level and crappy skill list. I think the Thug variant class is a good place to start:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug

Fighter Variant: Thug
The thug is a street fighter, a survivor who learns to mix brute force with a bit of craftiness. He has most of the fighter's strengths, along with some additional skills to help keep him alive on the mean streets. Despite the name, not all thugs are mere hooligans—many are crafty veterans who use their knowledge of the streets to gain an advantage against their opponents.

Most thugs are nonlawful, though sometimes gangs of thugs with a lawful streak band together.

Class Skills
Add the following skills to the fighter's class skill list: Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (local), and Sleight of Hand. The thug gains skill points per level equal to 4 + Int modifier (and has this number x4 at 1st level).

Class Features
The thug has all the standard fighter class features, except as noted below.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency

Thugs are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light armor and shields.

Bonus Feats

Exchange the bonus feat at level 1 with Urban Tracking (track using gather information)
Exchange the bonus feats at level 4,8,12,16 and 20 with 1d6 Sudden strike.
Exchange the bonus feats at level 10,14,18 with either a bonus feat or a selection among these special abilities: Defensive roll, Evasion, Improved Evasion*


*requires evasion

F.H. Zebedee
2007-06-16, 11:55 PM
I say yes, to beefier fighter Will saves, and Mettle at some point along the way. Maybe level 12 or so, to give them a boost when they need it.

I'd also consider (maybe this is a bit much) but maybe letting them take 1 epic feat when they're past 15?

And, of course, while we're pumping them up, we'd need to upgrade the barb and the Monk to keep consistant. I'd say:

Monk: FULL BAB, soup up flurry and give them the ability to treat their Unarmed strikes as Cold Iron/Silver.

Barb: Hmmm... I'd say up the oomph of rage a little, and maybe a bonus feat or two.

Koga
2007-06-17, 01:28 AM
The Koga's always used these fixes for the fighter:

Can choose any feat from the [General] list.
Hit die d12.
Gains a bonus feat every level instead of every even level.

ishnar
2007-06-17, 02:07 AM
The Koga's always used these fixes for the fighter:

Can choose any feat from the [General] list.
Hit die d12.
Gains a bonus feat every level instead of every even level.

I've never found any problem with the fighter class. The only problem I've had was with spell caster prestige classes. Basically, spellcasters gain new abilities and don't lose anything important. If you want to even out spellcasters and fighters, disallow any prestige class that allows the caster to continue learning spells at the same rate AND gain new abilities as well.

If the fighter is fairly and intellegently equiped by level and properly buffed and supported by the other party members, then I've watched many battles where the fighter flies into the very teeth of doom and prevails.

This is a party game however, so the different classes are not meant to be "balanced" against each other. I see to many cries for "balance" on MUD and MMORPG boards. Each class has a role within a party, it is that role that matters and any percieved weakness is usually not one of the class but a sign other party members are not doing their job.

The only fix I ever did for fighters was to give them the Spot skill since what other class usually stands watch at night?

Morrsleib
2007-06-17, 07:09 AM
As said before: fighter need good will, both because they have so big problem without, (every spellcaster mid to highlevel spellcaster can take them out with a single will or ... (hold person, dominateperson or alike) and it make sense (it take a bit of will power to stand against every sort of terrible monsters with just your little stick of a sword).
Of course there are some power optimizers who can make fighters deal a awful lot of damage ( look at the wizards board Character optimation and spiked chain) but generally every Druid og cleric have more hp, deal more damage and can heal and summon. which means it doesn't make any kind of sense to play fighter instead of a pure divine caster

ishnar
2007-06-18, 01:33 AM
As said before: fighter need good will, both because they have so big problem without, (every spellcaster mid to highlevel spellcaster can take them out with a single will or ... (hold person, dominateperson or alike) and it make sense (it take a bit of will power to stand against every sort of terrible monsters with just your little stick of a sword).
Of course there are some power optimizers who can make fighters deal a awful lot of damage ( look at the wizards board Character optimation and spiked chain) but generally every Druid og cleric have more hp, deal more damage and can heal and summon. which means it doesn't make any kind of sense to play fighter instead of a pure divine caster

err, say again?

Yea, you would have a point, if a fighter couldn't also take out any given mid to high level caster in a single round of beat down. High level is really about winning initative, not class. You don't even need to specialize in damage with fighters. Most fighters I know commission an activatable silence 10' radius item that they activate once they get in grapple range of a mage. Once a spell caster is silenced and grappled, their options are very limited, but the fighter is coming into its own, except that a mage is a lot more likely to fail a grapple check with a fighter than a fighter of failing his save vs will. Throwing tangleroot bags at the casters is also pretty helpful. As well as other options. There is also nothing stopping an intelligent fighter from buying magic items to increase his saves and prevent death effects. Fighters just need to realize that there are other things to spend their gold on than ale and whores.

Besides, a Druid out damage a fighter? It sounds like some fighter is not fully utilizing his class and equipment, and he's certianly not fully buffed by his teammates. I've always had problems with Druids, who are supposed to care about nature, cold heartedly sending thousands of animals to their almost automatic doom. But it's usually a big fail against intelligent opponents who kill summoned creatures faster than they can be summoned in the first place.

Callix
2007-06-18, 01:58 AM
Couple of probs, ishnar.
1. Your average caster can eliminate just about anyone in a few rounds. The grappled mage will suddenly come down with a case of Finger of Death from the party Batman... err... wizard. The fighter has very few roles in high-level play. Mainly, they are there to grab the wizard's buffs if the cleric doesn't feel like getting their hands dirty.
2. Compare a Sor18 and a Ftr18. The Sor just gained access to Time Stop, Gate and/or Shapechange. The Fighter got... Weapon Mastery, if the PHBII is in. Otherwise.... something he could've got at level 9. Feats lack the high-end capability to keep the fighter competitive. Basically, the Fighter needs will saves and some feats that bridge the gap between "available at level 2" and epic. ToB tries to do something like this, but it's created new classes, rather than adding combat feats that might be any good against high-end opponents. Mettle is also a wonderful idea. At the very least, make it a feat with prereq: Ftr10-12.