LE or LN fire dragon?

[gadren]

Of all the various "True Dragons" published by WotC and Paizo, has there ever been one whose default alignment is LN or LE and that breathes fire?

[WalkingTheShade]

There's a fixup of the Hellfire wyrm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357158-Reverse-Engineered-Hellfire-Wyrm) here. They might not be considered "true" dragons, but...

[gadren]

There's a fixup of the Hellfire wyrm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?357158-Reverse-Engineered-Hellfire-Wyrm) here. They might not be considered "true" dragons, but...
Any non-extraplanar dragons?

[Werephilosopher]

Iron dragons, from Dragon Magazine #356, have the [fire] subtype, and breath a cone of "superheated sparks" which deal half fire, half electricity damage.

[Uncle Pine]

While I was rather shocked to discover that the default red dragon isn't LE, tome dragons (Dragon Magazine #343) are usually LN and their breath weapon can deal fire damage and iron dragons (Dragon Magazine #356) are always LN and their breath weapon deals half electricity and half fire damage.
If you start adding alignment templates, the list gets bigger. Furthermore, note that you can simply change the alignment of a creature if it fits your story.

[Mando Knight]

Furthermore, note that you can simply change the alignment of a creature if it fits your story.

You could even use a Gold dragon for it rather than a Red... centuries of cynicism and poor experience with mortals twisting the former Good being towards the belief in total order imposed by the powerful, long-lived elite (like-minded dragons, obviously) upon the squabbling chaos that is mortal civilization.

[Telonius]

The T'ien Lung dragon from Oriental Adventures has a cone of fire breath weapon and is usually LN.

[gadren]

I think Iron Dragons will work best for my purposes, thank you!

[DrMotives]

Also the Rattelyr dragons from Shining South are "always LE" with a line of fire breath. Terrain is desert.

[Crake]

While I was rather shocked to discover that the default red dragon isn't LN

All dnd chromatic dragons in dnd are famously evil by default, it's one of the biggest staplemarks of the system! Why would you have thought that the red dragon, the antithesis of the lawful good gold dragon would have been anything EXCEPT chaotic evil?

[Draconium]

All dnd chromatic dragons in dnd are famously evil by default, it's one of the biggest staplemarks of the system! Why would you have thought that the red dragon, the antithesis of the lawful good gold dragon would have been anything EXCEPT chaotic evil?

"Always" only means 99.999% of the time in D&D, don't you know. :smalltongue: Besides, I like making it so dragons in my games can be any alignment, regardless of breed, and I'm sure many others like to do so too.

[gadren]

"Always" only means 99.999% of the time in D&D, don't you know. :smalltongue: Besides, I like making it so dragons in my games can be any alignment, regardless of breed, and I'm sure many others like to do so too.

From the rules on alignment:
"Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions."

That being said, I think Chromatic Dragons = Evil, Metallic Dragons = Good, is a holdover from OD&D.

As for Gygax's intentions, I think Chromatic Dragons were intended to represent European dragons (which in lore were pretty much always evil and associated with the devil), and Metallic Dragons were intended to represent East Asian Dragons (since this was a time before people statted up Lung dragons and such, and if you look at pictures of the Gold dragon it has a far more oriental ascetic.)

[Draconium]

From the rules on alignment:
"Always: The creature is born with the indicated alignment. The creature may have a hereditary predisposition to the alignment or come from a plane that predetermines it. It is possible for individuals to change alignment, but such individuals are either unique or rare exceptions."

Emphasis mine - they do exist, they're just so rare, nobody really thinks they do. Hence, 99.999% (a humorous, made-up number, may I add).


That being said, I think Chromatic Dragons = Evil, Metallic Dragons = Good, is a holdover from OD&D.

As for Gygax's intentions, I think Chromatic Dragons were intended to represent European dragons (which in lore were pretty much always evil and associated with the devil), and Metallic Dragons were intended to represent East Asian Dragons (since this was a time before people statted up Lung dragons and such, and if you look at pictures of the Gold dragon it has a far more oriental ascetic.)

I'm not gonna argue there. In fact, I actually agree that the original Chromatic and Metallic Dragons were based on this. However, there are also official, published campaign settings where dragons aren't restricted by alignemtn like this - Eberron comes to mind.

[gadren]

Emphasis mine - they do exist, they're just so rare, nobody really thinks they do. Hence, 99.999% (a humorous, made-up number, may I add).

I'm not gonna argue there. In fact, I actually agree that the original Chromatic and Metallic Dragons were based on this. However, there are also official, published campaign settings where dragons aren't restricted by alignemtn like this - Eberron comes to mind.

I think you think I was arguing with your point when in fact I was just adding to it.

[Draconium]

I think you think I was arguing with your point when in fact I was just adding to it.

Ah, sorry, my misunderstanding. I apologize.

[Crake]

"Always" only means 99.999% of the time in D&D, don't you know. :smalltongue: Besides, I like making it so dragons in my games can be any alignment, regardless of breed, and I'm sure many others like to do so too.

I feel like you're arguing against a statement I didn't actually make.

[Draconium]

I feel like you're arguing against a statement I didn't actually make.

Maybe I am, I just wanted to point out that just because something is one alignment by default, that doesn't mean you can't make them another alignment if you want to.

[Uncle Pine]

All dnd chromatic dragons in dnd are famously evil by default, it's one of the biggest staplemarks of the system! Why would you have thought that the red dragon, the antithesis of the lawful good gold dragon would have been anything EXCEPT chaotic evil?

Because I meant to write LE. I edited the typo now.

[Crake]

Because I meant to write LE. I edited the typo now.

Ah right haha, yeah, that's a more understandable mistake to make :smalltongue:

[Uncle Pine]

By the way, isn't Ashardalon himself LE? Or am I imagining things?

[Crake]

By the way, isn't Ashardalon himself LE? Or am I imagining things?

not sure to be honest, he might've been?

[ShurikVch]

Archdragon template (Dragon #321), among other things, change alignment to Neutral <something>
Thus, Lawful Archdragon will have Lawful Neutral alignment

[gadren]

By the way, isn't Ashardalon himself LE? Or am I imagining things?

Ashardalon was a great red wyrm with the heart of a balor (literally), so I'm fairly certain he was statted as CE, even if he didn't act that way

[nedz]

You could apply the Half Dragon Template.
A Half Red Silver Dragon would get a Fire breath 1/day.
Then taking Sorcerer, or Cleric, levels can get you more via feats.


All dnd chromatic dragons in dnd are famously evil by default, it's one of the biggest staplemarks of the system! Why would you have thought that the red dragon, the antithesis of the lawful good gold dragon would have been anything EXCEPT chaotic evil?

This approach can also solve this problem. Dragons have been around a long time and will breed with anything. Making your Dragons Half Metallic Chromatic, or vice versa, breaks the colour coded for your convenience paradyme.