Optimizing the [expletive]

[Triskavanski]

So there are great archetypes and classes out there. Then there is a lot of bad ones.

Of the bad ones there are some that have cool concepts. Like the Spell Slinger, White haired Witch, and Sword saint.


I'm trying to figure out how to optimize these things out of the bad zone into something that is passable and still cool.

So far I've got the Spellslinger switching to a different class, like the Magus to help make it useful. Anything else out there to help some of these archetypes that are considered bad, but have a cool concept behind them?

[legomaster00156]

I think you're missing the fact that the Spell Slinger and the White-Haired Witch are already passable characters. They're weaker than the base classes, but they are still full casters.

[grarrrg]

I think you're missing the fact that the Spell Slinger and the White-Haired Witch are already passable characters. They're weaker than the base classes, but they are still full casters.

^ This ^
Also, "dip 1 level in this bad thing to get a unique ability and then never look back" is not exactly "using" a bad archetype.

My favorite Spellslinger build involved dipping Siege Gunner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/siege-gunner-gunslinger-archetype) to get INT-based Grit, some deeds, and Martial Prof. The Grit/Deeds expand your options (and gets you Quick Clear). Then go Eldritch Knight.

[Triskavanski]

Just because they are full casters doesn't make the archetype useful or really all that good at all. You're not really using the abilities that the archetype is giving you. At least the 1 level dip would be to make use of the abilities the archetype is giving.

I mean with the spellslinger, if you're not using the abilities it gives, you're just playing a wizard with no familiar, no school, no cantrips, and four restricted schools.

[Florian]

Whats wrong with the Sword Saint?

[SorenKnight]

Sword Saint is bad because its signature ability requires a full round action and can only be used on an enemy the samurai hasn't attacked. So while another melee character might move adjacent to an enemy, make a standard action attack and then full attack the next turn, a Sword Saint would move adjacent then have to choose whether to waste its round or to waste its chance to Iaijutsu Strike.

And even if you start next to an enemy it's a relatively small amount of damage and only at the beginning of an encounter, while the mount ability its traded for could be used to make multiple charges in an encounter and without requiring challenge uses.

[Florian]

Ah, ok. I saw the archetype and simply compared it with the others that are geared towards using Performance Combat, where it actually does fine.

[Triskavanski]

And it gets worse. You also have to use your challenge on that target as well, and you take a -4 to ac.

Meaning you get to do this manuver and take a -6 to ac vs everyone but the target. The target you only take a -4 against. Until level 10, when this is reduced to -4 on others -2 on challenge.

[Psyren]

Sword Saint is definitely weak, I agree - especially now that there are so many resources for animal companions (including ways to get them indoors if you need to), and the utility they provide.

Having said that, your other two are a bit confusing, so it might help if you defined what you consider to be "bad zone" and "passable." You've got two T1 classes that are still T1 even with those archetypes, so saying they aren't "passable" doesn't really add up.

[Triskavanski]

By bad

1) The archetype is non-functional, or significantly difficult to make functional
2) The Archetype functions significantly below base
3) The Archetype's feature are largely ignoreable.



Sword Saint is an example of 1 and 2.

Spellslinger and White Haired Which are examples of #3. They're archetypes that only merit is that they are attached to a big bad powerful class, that could survive with no class features beyond their 9 levels of spells.

[Psyren]

Spellslinger and White Haired Which are examples of #3. They're archetypes that only merit is that they are attached to a big bad powerful class, that could survive with no class features beyond their 9 levels of spells.

Why would you pick an archetype just to ignore its features though? Presumably you are taking Spellslinger because you want to cast spells through guns, and you're taking White-Haired Witch to attack with your hair. If you plan on ignoring those features, of course the archetype is pointless.

I agree where Sword Saint is concerned, it needs a buff - a feat to let you iaijutsu a target repeatedly for instance, or as a swift action followed by full-attacking, or as a move action followed by Vital Strike.

[avr]

Spellslinger's big feature is adding the gun's enhancement bonus to save DCs. If you take the archetype and don't use that, yes it's not good. If you do it is good in it's specialty and worse in general.

1 level of spellslinger wizard followed by the rest in a class which can exploit that feature and still gets their full spell list (sorcerer, magus, maybe even druid or ecclesitheurge cleric) probably is more powerful, true. But if you can't make an effective wizard using illusion, evocation, conjuration and abjuration spells (for example) then you really aren't trying.

There have been many attempts to optimise white haired witch. It remains something cool rather than uniquely powerful.

[Triskavanski]

Why would you pick an archetype just to ignore its features though? Presumably you are taking Spellslinger because you want to cast spells through guns, and you're taking White-Haired Witch to attack with your hair. If you plan on ignoring those features, of course the archetype is pointless.

I agree where Sword Saint is concerned, it needs a buff - a feat to let you iaijutsu a target repeatedly for instance, or as a swift action followed by full-attacking, or as a move action followed by Vital Strike.


Thats kinda my point there. I find the Spellslinger and White-Haired witch to be pretty bad for using their abilities. So I want to figure out how to polish these turds and make them into something that could use the abilities.

Of course there are more archetypes, lots of them for different classes.

[Florian]

But this discussion, right now, will lead us in circles, don't you think?
What's missing is a clear benchmark to expand from.

[Psyren]

Spellslinger's big feature is adding the gun's enhancement bonus to save DCs. If you take the archetype and don't use that, yes it's not good. If you do it is good in it's specialty and worse in general.

1 level of spellslinger wizard followed by the rest in a class which can exploit that feature and still gets their full spell list (sorcerer, magus, maybe even druid or ecclesitheurge cleric) probably is more powerful, true. But if you can't make an effective wizard using illusion, evocation, conjuration and abjuration spells (for example) then you really aren't trying.

There have been many attempts to optimise white haired witch. It remains something cool rather than uniquely powerful.

This is indeed the crux of it. If the main things these archetypes do (the Spellslinger's DC boost, or the WHW's ability to melee/deliver touch spells from 30ft. away) don't appeal to you, then no amount of optimizing will really change that. The fact that an archetype is weaker than the base is not inherently bad - the point of an archetype is to let you do something different, not necessarily something better. Or more accurately, it makes you better at some things and worse than others.

There are some minor things you can do to boost them, like having the White-Haired Witch go into Evangelist for a BAB boost, but again, the idea is that you're expected to already be "on board" with what the archetype is trying to do before you can take a stab at optimizing them further. If the very premise isn't grabbing you, then you're just wasting your time.

[Triskavanski]

Well the WHW has a very hard time grabbing me with a low BAB.



:D


However, you said the WHW can make touch attacks with their hair?

[Red Fel]

However, you said the WHW can make touch attacks with their hair?

Per the White-Haired Witch (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/white-haired-witch) ability White Hair:

At 1st level, a white-haired witch gains the ability to use her hair as a weapon. This functions as a primary natural attack with a reach of 5 feet.(Emphasis added.)

Per the Combat rules concerning casting touch spells in combat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Cast-a-Spell):

If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren't considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.(Emphasis added.)

So, yes. It is a natural attack which you may use to discharge touch spells.

[Triskavanski]

well, that is pretty cool there, since a good number of witch spells are touch spells.

[Red Fel]

well, that is pretty cool there, since a good number of witch spells are touch spells.

And I think that's precisely the point. In addition to the creepiness factor of oh my me her hair is trying to murder me, you get an increasing way of delivering touch spells. Increasing, in that its range increases to a maximum of 30 feet, and in that it serves other functions while not delivering touch spells, such as strangulation. Being able to silence an enemy spellcaster within 30 feet by pitting your Int against their Str is actually pretty solid when you think about it.