Balance check: Sublime Chord [3.x]

[Aotrs Commander]

For an upcoming game, one of players want to play a Sublime chord (specifically a cleric/mystic theurge/bard/Sublime Chord).

I dimly recall that Sublime Chord was something mentioned on the old optimisation boards back on WotC, so I wanted to refresh my memory before I allowed it and make sure it wasn't one of of those "horribly broken" PrCs. (Like Planar Shepard, which I may be confusing it with.)



The system is principally 3.x with some elements of Pathfinder and houserules (which I term 3.Aotrs...), with a moderate-high level of optimisation.

Notable Houserule in Play: MT prereqs are reduced to divine caster level 1st/arcane casdter level 1st, allowing a character to class into it at 3rd level.

(Rationale is that it doesn't mean you can take any more levels, but it means you actually can play your concept and not suck and lower level, whereas your rater of spell level gain at higher levels (which are more powerful) is reduced.)



The player would thus be looking at something like Cleric 1/Bard 1/ MT 8/Sublime Chord x/MT x.

The campaign will be the Shackled City adventure path, so finishing level expectation will be 20th, possibly bottom end epic.



I am particularly concerned with the Song of Arcane Power, as it seems like it would be rather trivial to abuse. (Even if in play, it may have to be re-balanced slightly as we are as essentially using the PF Bard music uses (bard level x 2 +2 + Cha mod rounds per day instead of 1 x bard level uses per day) to require 2 uses. (I am VERY leery of allowing anything that allows the PC to drastically increase their caster level; perals of power, of example, are outright banned.)

One option I would consider, if this is the case, would be dropping that feature (maybe replacing it with something else).

A second option I would consider is (considering our attitude to multiclassing restrictions is to completely ignore them) would be to remove the restriction on being forced to take all ten levels before taking anything else; my initial impression is that would not seem too cause any problems.



So then, my question is whether in general (for future reference) and in this specific character build, whether Sublime Chord would cause any problems as written, or whether a minor adjustment (to Song of Arcane Power) would be sufficient to fix the issue.



(For comparison of power level of the campaign, we use the RAW archivist that allows them to learn any divine spell, for example.)

[ManicOppressive]

So the only potential problem with this specific build is that, through Sublime Chord and with your houserule on Theurges, it will allow straight 9th level casting on the arcane side along with the 6th level cleric slots.

This isn't really a huge problem, and there are more overpowered (and simpler) ways to achieve this (Beguiler/Rainbow Servant anyone), but it's something you should be aware of.

Sublime Chord definitely empowers a Bard. A well played Chord will be on par with a sorcerer in most encounters. Song of Arcane Power is definitely powerful, but as long as you make it use 2 uses by the PF rules it should be fine. In fact, I would double Song of Timelessness too. (Song of Cosmic Fire is a pathetically weak ability considering it comes at tenth level, there's honestly no need to double it again since it already takes 2 uses. Mediocre fireball equivalent for two song uses when you have 9th level spells? Yeah okay, you stick with that.)

In general, I would say Sublime Chord is fine as long as it's not being cheesed. The caster level increase is really the only point it has that a sorcerer can't imitate. It loses a LOT of spells per day versus a sorcerer, especially in the weird little 3rd level gulf it creates.

[Hiro Quester]

Most people take 2levels of SC,because the song of arcane power is a pretty good advantage.

But it's only increasing the DC and number of dice etc for one spell, and only by 4 levels if the perform check is above 30. Since perform isn't in-class for MT, the PC's perform check won't easily get that high. It's more likely that the boost will be only a couple of levels.

I would not worry about it too much.

I played a bard/SC to level 20, and only use that song once in a while, to make sure the save or suck spell was harder to save against. And some of SC's best spells are no save anyway (e.g. Irresistable dance)

[ManicOppressive]

And that's the big danger--not that someone will take a bunch of Sublime Chord levels, but that they'll take exactly two, laugh, and spec into Abjurant Champion or something.

Also, if you hear this player utter the word "Incantatrix" in the course of this build, kill him immediately. I'll help you hide the body.

[LudicSavant]

I dimly recall that Sublime Chord was something mentioned on the old optimisation boards back on WotC, so I wanted to refresh my memory before I allowed it and make sure it wasn't one of of those "horribly broken" PrCs. (Like Planar Shepard, which I may be confusing it with.)

When I play a Bard, I generally go one of two routes: The "fights better than the Fighter" Bard (Which is Bard/Crusader or Warblade with Song of the White Raven) or the "casts like a Sorcerer" Bard (which is Bard/Sublime Chord/other stuff).

Without your houserule, it's very strong (because it gets 9th level spells), but it's not in the same category of things as the Planar Shepherd.

[Troacctid]

Sublime Chord is overpowered in that it's transparently stronger than any other prestige class option that exists at that level. If you can qualify, there's pretty much no reason why you would take anything else.

On the other hand, it's also not overpowered, in that it isn't really doing anything that ordinary casters weren't already doing. It gives you spells like a Sorcerer, cool...but you also could just have played a Sorcerer. Also, you can't get in until high levels, at which point the game kind of expects you to be broken, and a few extra points of power here or there won't make a big difference, relatively speaking.

[Chronos]

If you take Sublime Chord and stick with it, it's fine: You end up being like a sorcerer, but a bit less so, and like a bard, but a bit less so. A reasonable trade-off.

When you advance SC casting with some other prestige class, it can potentially get cheesy, though. For instance, the sublime virtuoso build ends up being a bard only more so, in addition to being nearly a sorcerer. Or you can use it to get double nines as a mystic theurge, etc. Personally, I would houserule that prestige classes that advance spellcasting can only advance base classes, not other prestige classes, but that's just me.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Sublime Chord is overpowered in that it's transparently stronger than any other prestige class option that exists at that level. If you can qualify, there's pretty much no reason why you would take anything else.

On the other hand, it's also not overpowered, in that it isn't really doing anything that ordinary casters weren't already doing. It gives you spells like a Sorcerer, cool...but you also could just have played a Sorcerer. Also, you can't get in until high levels, at which point the game kind of expects you to be broken, and a few extra points of power here or there won't make a big difference, relatively speaking.
This. It bumps you up to a 9th level caster, which is generally a substantial power spike, but it isn't broken in the same sense as, say, Incantrix. A bard/duskblade/hexblade gets full casting on top of their normal tricks, but... by this point the normal 9th level casters have also picked up fun tricks, so it doesn't hurt that much. It's not a fast progression like the Ur-Priest. Heck, you get 9th level spells a level behind the sorcerer.

So... no, I wouldn't worry too much. Caster level is rarely a big deal (remember, it doesn't let you cast spells you normally couldn't).

[Aotrs Commander]

First off, thanks for all the input folks!


So the only potential problem with this specific build is that, through Sublime Chord and with your houserule on Theurges, it will allow straight 9th level casting on the arcane side along with the 6th level cleric slots.

This isn't really a huge problem, and there are more overpowered (and simpler) ways to achieve this (Beguiler/Rainbow Servant anyone), but it's something you should be aware of.

Hm, yes, that is a point; you'd have to be Bard 4/Clr 3/MT 3 before you could SC under the standard rules, wouldn't you? (Which would be arcane 17 (9th)/Clr (3rd) or something.)

I concur that should not be a problem, but yes, it is something to bear in mind. (I principally worked on the revised MT on the basis of a straigh forward Clr/Wiz/MT.)



Sublime Chord definitely empowers a Bard. A well played Chord will be on par with a sorcerer in most encounters. Song of Arcane Power is definitely powerful, but as long as you make it use 2 uses by the PF rules it should be fine. In fact, I would double Song of Timelessness too. (Song of Cosmic Fire is a pathetically weak ability considering it comes at tenth level, there's honestly no need to double it again since it already takes 2 uses. Mediocre fireball equivalent for two song uses when you have 9th level spells? Yeah okay, you stick with that.)

In general, I would say Sublime Chord is fine as long as it's not being cheesed. The caster level increase is really the only point it has that a sorcerer can't imitate. It loses a LOT of spells per day versus a sorcerer, especially in the weird little 3rd level gulf it creates.

I did wonder about swapping Song of Arcane Power and Song of Cosmic fire's positions in level. (i.e. the latter at 2nd, the former at 10th.)




Most people take 2levels of SC,because the song of arcane power is a pretty good advantage.

But it's only increasing the DC and number of dice etc for one spell, and only by 4 levels if the perform check is above 30. Since perform isn't in-class for MT, the PC's perform check won't easily get that high. It's more likely that the boost will be only a couple of levels.

I would not worry about it too much.

I played a bard/SC to level 20, and only use that song once in a while, to make sure the save or suck spell was harder to save against. And some of SC's best spells are no save anyway (e.g. Irresistable dance)

Ah, yes, frag, yes, forgot to mention that; the skill system is closer to PF's (though not quite that). They don't get quadruple skill points at level one, but if they have a class skill and they have at least 1 rank in it, they get a +3 trained bonus (wgich counts as three skill ranks for the purposes of pre-reqs) and all skills cost 1 skill point.

The character will thus be able to max out Perform quite easily, hense my concern about the issue.


If you take Sublime Chord and stick with it, it's fine: You end up being like a sorcerer, but a bit less so, and like a bard, but a bit less so. A reasonable trade-off.

When you advance SC casting with some other prestige class, it can potentially get cheesy, though. For instance, the sublime virtuoso build ends up being a bard only more so, in addition to being nearly a sorcerer. Or you can use it to get double nines as a mystic theurge, etc. Personally, I would houserule that prestige classes that advance spellcasting can only advance base classes, not other prestige classes, but that's just me.

I think as a matter of course I've have banned all the PrCs that grant you accelerated access to 9s (e.g. Blighter, Divine Crusader, Ur-Priest etc), though I am willing to make an exception for Sublime Chord on the basis that it's not quite that abusable given the more limited number of spells. (Though I might not if it wasn't bard-with-sorcerer-spells where the amount of spells that can be learn is more limited.)

I think the player is pretty much intending to go for straight cleric for the divine classes though.




When I play a Bard, I generally go one of two routes: The "fights better than the Fighter" Bard (Which is Bard/Crusader or Warblade with Song of the White Raven) or the "casts like a Sorcerer" Bard (which is Bard/Sublime Chord/other stuff).

Without your houserule, it's very strong (because it gets 9th level spells), but it's not in the same category of things as the Planar Shepherd.


Sublime Chord is overpowered in that it's transparently stronger than any other prestige class option that exists at that level. If you can qualify, there's pretty much no reason why you would take anything else.

On the other hand, it's also not overpowered, in that it isn't really doing anything that ordinary casters weren't already doing. It gives you spells like a Sorcerer, cool...but you also could just have played a Sorcerer. Also, you can't get in until high levels, at which point the game kind of expects you to be broken, and a few extra points of power here or there won't make a big difference, relatively speaking.


And that's the big danger--not that someone will take a bunch of Sublime Chord levels, but that they'll take exactly two, laugh, and spec into Abjurant Champion or something.

Strictly speaking, then perhaps there was more than just the usual bovine excrement fluff nonsesne when they put in the "you have to take all ten levels once you start" rule, then.

So, it sounds like it might be reasonable to allow progression in other classes and swap the three songs around a bit:

Pattern 1): 2nd Song of Timelessness, 6th Song of Cosmic Fire, 10th Song of Arcane Power

or

Pattern 2): 2nd Song of Cosmic Fire, 6th Song of Timelessness, 10th Song of Arcane Power

maybe..?

Or allow it as written, including the "when you start, you are now commited for ten levels."



I think one of the former seems better; thoughts?




Also, if you hear this player utter the word "Incantatrix" in the course of this build, kill him immediately. I'll help you hide the body.

I recall the name, but I can't remember *looks it up* oh yeah, NOW I remember! That's on the automatic banned list, which is quite impressive, since its never even made it on to the allowed list in the first place...! The PCs can damn well wait until Epic before they can futz about with Metamagic abuse!

(I allow Divine Metamagic only on the basis that nightsticks (et al) are Not A Thing, and the understanding that basically everything around knows Buffs Are Bad and loads some form of Dispel if able...! (And sometimes I want to use DMM on the NPCs as well!)





This. It bumps you up to a 9th level caster, which is generally a substantial power spike, but it isn't broken in the same sense as, say, Incantrix. A bard/duskblade/hexblade gets full casting on top of their normal tricks, but... by this point the normal 9th level casters have also picked up fun tricks, so it doesn't hurt that much. It's not a fast progression like the Ur-Priest. Heck, you get 9th level spells a level behind the sorcerer.

So... no, I wouldn't worry too much. Caster level is rarely a big deal (remember, it doesn't let you cast spells you normally couldn't).

I am conscious that it's not just arcane spells that can be boosted though (just double checked, doesn't specifically say that its arcane spells).

(And even though I unilaterally made all the [Alignment] Word spells "Will negates"1 (which is the most obvious and flagrantly abuseable use of spammed caster level increase, I'm sure it's far from the only one.



1It took the one instance of this being used on me as a PC (by another PC, as it happens) to drive home how utterly broken it was with no save.

[ManicOppressive]

What rule are you referring to that says a PrC has to be maxed before moving on? I've never heard of that before.

[Chronos]

That rule doesn't exist (except for the Risen Martyr), but apparently there's a site out there that has what it claims is the rules for Sublime Chord, but which includes that nonexistent rule.

[Aotrs Commander]

That rule doesn't exist (except for the Risen Martyr), but apparently there's a site out there that has what it claims is the rules for Sublime Chord, but which includes that nonexistent rule.

Wait, that's not in the Complete Arcane?

*checks*

Nope, nope it isn't.

Huh.

To be fair, the player and I looked it up on his phone while were were at the wargames club - must have found that site (looks like it's the firtst result on google search, since it came up when I googled it here) - and I didn't bother to check in the actual book when I got home.

Must be someone else's houserule to try and prevent the abuse of Song of the Arcane by locking you into the class. (I believed it because there ARE PrC with stuff stupider than that...!)



Okay, scratch that idea, then, down to the choice of pattern 1 or pattern 2, I guess.

[Endarire]

I say to leave Sublime Chord as-is. Is Song of Arcane Power really that good/bad? Consider the class's saves, skills, BAB, and HD. For someone who isn't trying to do UrChord or somesuch, is PrCing out of Sublime Chord problematic?

If Song of Arcane Power beats everything else in Sublime Chord, bolster that. Maybe add new songs.

[Chronos]

The issue isn't Song of Arcane Power. The issue is that most of what SC gives you is the casting. It's balanced around the assumption that you're mostly just getting casting from it... but then there are all those other classes that can advance casting and give you other stuff, and those combined with Sublime Chord casting exceed the balance.

[ComaVision]

Hm, yes, that is a point; you'd have to be Bard 4/Clr 3/MT 3 before you could SC under the standard rules, wouldn't you? (Which would be arcane 17 (9th)/Clr (3rd) or something.)

I concur that should not be a problem, but yes, it is something to bear in mind. (I principally worked on the revised MT on the basis of a straigh forward Clr/Wiz/MT.)



It's more likely to be something like Bard 4/Clr 3/MT 3/SC 2/MT 7/X 1, which would be Arcane 9ths and Cleric 7ths. I still don't think that's an issue at level 20 but just so you're aware.

[Socratov]

I agree with what ahs been said here.

If you go bard/Urpriest/SC/MT then you've got a problem of dual 9ths, though that equalises quickly once the player sees that he has little room for feats and only so many actions to sue the spells.

As for Song of arcane power, it does nto grant extra spells, only extra CL to cast these spells at. so your casterlevel checks are better (which is nice against spell resistance) and you might get a little bit more mileage out of your spells (extra magic missle damage/missiles, etc.) and it's not as if you suddenly can outdo tricks other casters ahve to boost their cl.

[Aotrs Commander]

It's more likely to be something like Bard 4/Clr 3/MT 3/SC 2/MT 7/X 1, which would be Arcane 9ths and Cleric 7ths. I still don't think that's an issue at level 20 but just so you're aware.

But thinking about it, that's what you'd get with a straight Clr/Wiz MT anyway (you'd either end up as Clr 15/wiz 15 (8th/8th, from Clr 5/Wiz 5 MT 10 in whatever order) at 20th or Clr 17/Wiz 13 (Clr 7/Wiz 3/MT 10 in whatever order). So, yeah, I agree, not seeing a problem with that (that isn't inherent to MT).

Song of the Arcane is what makes me nervous, since it seems a little too easy to abuse.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The issue isn't Song of Arcane Power. The issue is that most of what SC gives you is the casting. It's balanced around the assumption that you're mostly just getting casting from it... but then there are all those other classes that can advance casting and give you other stuff, and those combined with Sublime Chord casting exceed the balance.

You're still getting less casting than a sorcerer at a slower progression. That's what it comes down to.
So what if you can progress it with another PrC? You're not getting in before level 11, so it's not like you get spells early.
Either you're taking Virtuoso, which makes the bardic music you already have better, making you a second-rate sorcerer that also sings.
Or you take a caster PrC that a sorcerer might take, which makes you a second-rate PrCed sorcerer with a bit of substandard basic music.

As long as you're fine with sorcerers taking PrCs that grant full casting progression i really don't see the issue here. The limited spells known and spells per day are a pretty big power loss, and bardic music only gets really problematic if you allow absolutely anything that boosts it to stack and double with Words of Creation. Even that mostly helps melee, which is actually useful to maintain intra-party balance. It also eats up all the feats that a caster normally spends on improving his magic further, so it's another limiting factor on the casting prowess compared to a "real" full caster.
The problems only appear when you allow people to cheese the qualification requirements or combine it with something like Ur-Priest.

It's a nice class for someone that wants to play a caster-bard at higher levels and still remain viable in a moderately high-op party. It's no more broken than a gish with 9th level spells and 16 BAB.


Song of the Arcane is what makes me nervous, since it seems a little too easy to abuse.

Caster level boosts aren't exactly rare. Sure, a +4 CL is good, but it's not like you're getting it free compared to a sorcerer (who gets more casting instead).
If someone is determined to abuse CL increases he can get there without SC, without too much trouble. That's a player problem though, not a problem of the class itself. Otherwise +4 CL is just a nice bonus to spell durations and CL checks at that level.

[Flickerdart]

Sublime chord is like sorcerer but weaker. Consider:

Bard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Sublime Chord 8/Mystic Theurge 2: 11th level cleric casting, 9th level bard casting, 10th level sublime chord casting (2 9th level spells known, 2 9th level spells per day). Sublime chord CL is 11, 15 with Practiced Spellcaster, 19 if you use the super scary song that you're super scared of.

Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Focluchan Lyrist 8: 19th level cleric casting, 19th level sorcerer casting (3 9th level spells known, 6 9th level spells per day). Qualify for the evasion component with the ring, or Sanctified One of Olidamarra, or soulmelds, or whatever you like.

The sorcerer side of the second build whoops the entire first build, even before the cleric spells come out.

A slightly less dumb idea would be Bard 1/Cleric 9/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8 (using Talfirian Song to qualify for Sublime Chord). That at least gets you 17th level cleric casting to back up your crappy arcane nines.

[Aotrs Commander]

bardic music only gets really problematic if you allow absolutely anything that boosts it to stack and double with Words of Creation.

Or a party of eight characters with three NPCs and two animals (thanks, Hook Mountain Massecre), when two of those characters are Bards with inspirational boost, one of which has Dragonfire Inspiration and the NPCs are bow-people or TWFers...

I tell you, that is NOT. FUNNY. +3D6+3 damage on all weapon attacks mounts up ASTONISHINGLY at that number of attacks. (When there's like, ten from the NPCs for a start...!)

(The PCs went from me going "hah, ya buggers, you've bitten off a bit much this time, you might actually have to retreat" to "fracking hell, they're actually goin to WIN this" inside a round and a half.)




If someone is determined to abuse CL increases he can get there without SC, without too much trouble.

Well, if I allowed 'em to, they would, but I keep a sharp eye on those! (Like I said, I outright banned the pearl of power.)

Though yeah, CL boosting is more of a divine than arcane problem (though as this is an MT...) due to the larger number of CL For The Win spells divine has.



What I might do is defer the issue for a while and see how the character (and the power of the game pans out). I've okayed SC regardless, Worst case scenario, the character will get it at 12th level, but more likely 14th before it becomes a problem. (By that point, I should also have more of an idea of the actual end-level of the game, and thus might do something like allow the player to choose is he wants to swap the order he gets the songs.)

[ComaVision]

I tell you, that is NOT. FUNNY. +3D6+3 damage on all weapon attacks mounts up ASTONISHINGLY at that number of attacks. (When there's like, ten from the NPCs for a start...!)

Unless we're talking like level 3 that's a really low amount of bardic music optimization. My last bard was adding +12d6 damage iirc.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Or a party of eight characters with three NPCs and two animals (thanks, Hook Mountain Massecre), when two of those characters are Bards with inspirational boost, one of which has Dragonfire Inspiration and the NPCs are bow-people or TWFers...
In fairness, that sounds like just about optimal bard conditions. On the plus side, it's an evenly spread power boost, so it's not a problem to just crank up CRs a bit


Though yeah, CL boosting is more of a divine than arcane problem (though as this is an MT...) due to the larger number of CL For The Win spells divine has.
That's a problem with Blasphemy and its ilk more than anything else.

[Aotrs Commander]

Unless we're talking like level 3 that's a really low amount of bardic music optimization. My last bard was adding +12d6 damage iirc.

They were level 7 at the time.

And frankly, that was MORE than enough with 13 characters benefitting from it...




Sublime chord is like sorcerer but weaker. Consider:

Bard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Sublime Chord 8/Mystic Theurge 2: 11th level cleric casting, 9th level bard casting, 10th level sublime chord casting (2 9th level spells known, 2 9th level spells per day). Sublime chord CL is 11, 15 with Practiced Spellcaster, 19 if you use the super scary song that you're super scared of.

SC caster level is equal to bard + SC level, so it's 19 at 20th. (It'll actually be 20th. because I have no doubt the player will pick up the Pathfinder character trait which is basically half Practised Spellcaster.)


A slightly less dumb idea would be Bard 1/Cleric 9/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8 (using Talfirian Song to qualify for Sublime Chord). That at least gets you 17th level cleric casting to back up your crappy arcane nines.

But that would leave you as a cleric with 1st level bard abilies for half of the campaign, which is starting at level 1 (and if we were on Faerun and thus allowing Faerun feats). That's one of those ideas that's good theorhetical optimisation, but means your character concept doesn't kick until really late if you have to play all the way through.



Focluchan Lyrist might be worth a mention to the player though (though he would end up taking a couple of levels of Rogue or Monk (etc), since I would not personally allow the ring (or Chaos Luck) to qualify for the pre-reqs (and incarnum is not in use), but he might consider it worth a trade off, I dunno; it'd still give you 18th/18th casting (at CL 20 with a trait and a feat). I'm less worried about the max number of spells than I am about the CL increase abuse, to be honest.

(The party nominaly consists of this character, a druid, an archivist, a focused specialist conjurer, a crusader, a Markman (from UT) and rogue-probably-going-something-else-later, so come 20th it's going to be MURDEROUSLY horrendous in terms of 9ths being chucked around anyway.)




In fairness, that sounds like just about optimal bard conditions. On the plus side, it's an evenly spread power boost, so it's not a problem to just crank up CRs a bit

Fortunately, the PCs have just last night pretty miuch finished all that, and now the NPCs will be departing and (because of player things) one of the bards will be heading back with them.

(Doesn't stop the one remaining bard doing it, of course, with Lingering Song, but he'll actually have to work harder at it!)



It's also partly my own fault, since I said to the players when we started I strongly recommended one of 'em take Dragonfire Inspiration (which one qualified for with a dip into Dragon Shaman) if we were going to have two bards.




That's a problem with Blasphemy and its ilk more than anything else.

I had a feeling there were more spells like that that I couldn't remember.

Of course, with part-cleric, Holy Word is a potential problem (though migtated bu Will Negates), or I wouldn't have been so bothered.

[Flickerdart]

SC caster level is equal to bard + SC level, so it's 19 at 20th. (It'll actually be 20th. because I have no doubt the player will pick up the Pathfinder character trait which is basically half Practised Spellcaster.)

No. "A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class." 1 level in bard + 8 levels in SC + 2 levels in MT = 11. SC doesn't care that your bard CL is increased, it only looks at your bard level.



But that would leave you as a cleric with 1st level bard abilies for half of the campaign, which is starting at level 1 (and if we were on Faerun and thus allowing Faerun feats). That's one of those ideas that's good theorhetical optimisation, but means your character concept doesn't kick until really late if you have to play all the way through.

That doesn't really strike me as a problem. Pick up Extra Music, grab items and feats that increase Bardic Music, if you really miss the anemic bard spellcasting then buy a wand. There are loads of other ways to cast arcane spells as a divine caster if you don't like Faerun content.



Focluchan Lyrist might be worth a mention to the player though (though he would end up taking a couple of levels of Rogue or Monk (etc), since I would not personally allow the ring (or Chaos Luck) to qualify for the pre-reqs (and incarnum is not in use), but he might consider it worth a trade off, I dunno; it'd still give you 18th/18th casting (at CL 20 with a trait and a feat). I'm less worried about the max number of spells than I am about the CL increase abuse, to be honest.
CL abuse doesn't look like "+4 for 1 spell." It looks like "greater consumptive field". Being worried about +4 CL over gate or shapechange or time stop just sounds weird to me.

[Aotrs Commander]

No. "A sublime chord’s caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class." 1 level in bard + 8 levels in SC + 2 levels in MT = 11. SC doesn't care that your bard CL is increased, it only looks at your bard level.

You said:


Bard 1/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Sublime Chord 8/Mystic Theurge 2

I think those other 8 levels of MT are probably important...!

So we are saying the same thing.

[Flickerdart]

You said:



I think those other 8 levels of MT are probably important...!

So we are saying the same thing.
No, they are not. The character has 1 level of bard, and that's what sublime chord looks at when determining CL. It doesn't give a damn about the character's bard caster level of 11. Unless of course, you are letting the player apply those first 8 MT levels to casting he hasn't even gotten yet, but that's your fault.

[Aotrs Commander]

That doesn't really strike me as a problem. Pick up Extra Music, grab items and feats that increase Bardic Music, if you really miss the anemic bard spellcasting then buy a wand. There are loads of other ways to cast arcane spells as a divine caster if you don't like Faerun content.

That is not what the player will want to do, though (he's doing this because he wants to do something that isn't just another cleric mechanically and because he wanted to play a Mystic Theurge.)



No, they are not. The character has 1 level of bard, and that's what sublime chord looks at when determining CL. It doesn't give a damn about the character's bard caster level of 11. Unless of course, you are letting the player apply those first 8 MT levels to casting he hasn't even gotten yet, but that's your fault.

"Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day."

My reading of that is that, for the purposes of spells, you are that level of class.

So my reading is that for the purposes of spell caster class level (and caster level), the bard level would be 1+8 (from MT).

(You may, of course, disagree. I suspect, however, were I to enforce that the player would simply not take Sublime Chord at all and find something else, probably giving up the idea of bard altogether, as yes, it would be anemically poor. (I consider, for a PC, too low a caster level is much more of a problem than too much.))

[noob]

It becomes broken when using a combination of wizard and of a weird definition of spell known and halfling whistler and then using versatile spellcaster for access to any spell(a few time per day but being able to cast Any spell is broken).

[Flickerdart]

My reading of that is that, for the purposes of spells, you are that level of class.
Sublime Chord is not a spell. Sublime Chord doesn't care about your CL for spells, it only cares about your class level.

[Aotrs Commander]

It becomes broken when using a combination of wizard and of a weird definition of spell known and halfling whistler and then using versatile spellcaster.

Well, I can garentee that will not be a problem in this particular case; I don't about a weird definition of spell known, but the latter two are not on the in-use list anyway for my games.

(Which is - while pretty generous - far from "anything ever produced for 3.x or PF...!")




Sublime Chord is not a spell. Sublime Chord doesn't care about your CL for spells, it only cares about your class level.

My reading (and thus my ruling) of the MT ability (et al) is (has always been) that it increases spellcaster class level (i.e., the number that tells you what line to read off to tell you how many spells you have (as opposed to caster level (which it also increases)) for the purposes of anything pertaining to spellcasting (so not skills/BAB/saves/HD and other class features).

E.g. a Bard with five levels of MT is treated as a 6th level bard for the purposes of any and all things that pertain to bard spellcasting (feats, PrCs, items etc) (so it is basically 6th level bard but that gets MT skills/BAB/saves/HD and doesn't progress other bard class features for the five MT levels).

(I wouldn't even have assumed there would be another way to read if you hadn't said something, so...)

[stanprollyright]

The thing to watch out for with Sublime Chord is how they use Metamagic Song. A Sublime Virtuoso that grabs Lyric Spell, Metamagic Song, and a bunch of Extra Musics and metamagic feats is trying to be a bardic Incantrix. A Sublime Virtuoso with the same class build who has DFI, Words of Creation, Metamagic Song, and Extend/Persist Spell is just trying to be the best Bard he can be. A Sublime Incantrix with Metamagic Song is begging to be banned.

[Flickerdart]

The thing to watch out for with Sublime Chord is how they use Metamagic Song. A Sublime Virtuoso that grabs Lyric Spell, Metamagic Song, and a bunch of Extra Musics and metamagic feats is trying to be a bardic Incantrix. A Sublime Virtuoso with the same class build who has DFI, Words of Creation, Metamagic Song, and Extend/Persist Spell is just trying to be the best Bard he can be. A Sublime Incantrix with Metamagic Song is begging to be banned.
Metamagic Song has a hard cap on how much metamagic you can apply. Lyric Spell does not let you overcome this limitation. Even if it did, the difficulty of getting extra Bardic Music uses compared to, say, Turn Undead attempts makes bards pretty rubbish metamagic monkeys when compared to the Incantatrix.

A character with 1 level of bard and 2 levels of sublime chord gets 2 bardic music uses per day. Assuming a human character, we have 8 feats to play with. That's 2 feats on MS and LS, 1 feat on Practiced Spellcaster to avoid the atrocious CL, and 2 feats on metamagic feats (prerequisite for LS). We can be charitable and say the cleric side has Planning domain for free Extend, meaning that we can take, for example, Persist as the second meta feat. That leaves us with 4 feats to take Extra Music on, which is 16 uses, for a total of 18 uses. If you used MS alone, you could persist three spells (big woop). With LS in the mix, you're paying anywhere from 2 to 10 music uses to cast a spell, so you can persist only one or two.

Incantatrix, it ain't.

[Aotrs Commander]

Just as a final word, the player and I agreed that we will let Sublime Chord stand as written is for now, and evaluate whether or not Song of the Arcane needs any adjustment for his specific character when we actually reach that point.

We also said we'd give him the option of deciding whether to pick Song of Timelessness or Song of Cosmic Fire at SC 6. (As by our reckoning, that if he goes Brd1/Clr1/MT 8/SC1/MT2/SC [x] etc there would be no point going beyond SC 8 (since SC caps at class level 10, (SC 8+MT(SC2/Clr2) =10)) unless he particularly wanted the class features).




Also, if you hear this player utter the word "Incantatrix" in the course of this build, kill him immediately. I'll help you hide the body.

Said player in question read the thread himself and told me that if he'd said "Incantatrix," he'd have helped me hide his body too...!