character optimization help

[Nosta]

so I am in a eastern style game at a low level and I'd like to know how to optimize my pc

I have a level 3 monk and have the following stats 18 str 14 dex 112 con 7 int 12 wisdom and 7 cha

I have a feat at level 1 and 3 and one for being human and my Dm is allowing 3 flaws for feats

I want to use the alt class feture that lets you do one attack for double damage

no magic items in this game. we be poor

most books allowed and so is Drg Mag

I want to be a power house who can take down foes and deal high damage

any idea for me

[MisterKaws]

so I am in a eastern style game at a low level and I'd like to know how to optimize my pc

I have a level 3 monk and have the following stats 18 str 14 dex 112 con 7 int 12 wisdom and 7 cha

I have a feat at level 1 and 3 and one for being human and my Dm is allowing 3 flaws for feats

I want to use the alt class feture that lets you do one attack for double damage

no magic items in this game. we be poor

most books allowed and so is Drg Mag

I want to be a power house who can take down foes and deal high damage

any idea for me

If you can get your DM to allow it, get Mighty Arms construct graft from Faiths of Eberron, try to get him to let you get non-magical Battlefists from Eberron Campaign Setting to put into your Mighty Arms, then get Beast Strike from Dragon 355, and Hammerfist from Dragon Compendium. Even if you don't manage to get the battlefists, you can do well enough just with those. Also, since you've got a lot of feats, get snap kick from Tome of Battle, you're only doing an attack without this, but with this thing you do two attacks at a reasonable attack bonus and all of it dealing double damage. Maybe Improved Natural Weapon for your unarmed strike too, as you're likely not going to be able to get a fang ring.
After you get monk lvl 6, you should look for another class that could stack with monk for unarmed progression either through feats, or through class features like the unarmed swordsage variant, which is pretty good, and gives a lot of really nice stuff, progressing monk further is just not worth it, when swordsage gives you even better features, and extends the wis to AC class feature to light armors.
For even more destruction, you should ask your party's batman(wiz/sorc/psion/artificer?) to continuously enlarge you when that is available, 'cause stacking weapon's size increases is king in damage optimization, thus don't forget to ask for the mighty wallop series when that's available too.

Calculations edit: By level 10 you get: 3d8 from monk's unarmed d10 plus 2 size increases(battlefists+imp. natural weapon) + 1d8 from battlefist's slam via beast strike + 7 from str x1.5 from hammerfists (assuming you pump your str to 20), all of that is doubled by decisive strike to a total of 8d8+14, and you can attack twice at your highest BAB-2 with snap kick, averaging exactly 100 damage if both hit, and that isn't even counting possible enlarging magic and/or mighy wallop, an average barbarian not using rage will usually have at most 90 hp, so... yeah, it's quite a high amount of damage.

[Curmudgeon]

Snap Kick is a good feat, but you can't have that until you get BAB +6.

I strongly recommend the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21) at Monk 2 to let you become invisible for a full round every 3 rounds. Beyond that, without magic your best bet is to get some bonus damage as a class feature. So stop your Monk levels after 2, start Rogue at 3, and immediately take Ascetic Rogue (Complete Adventurer, page 106) to maintain your Monk unarmed damage progression with Rogue levels. Of course, Rogue adds sneak attack damage. :smallsmile: At Rogue 3 trade your trap sense for Lightbringer Penetrating Strike ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) to deal sneak attack damage to those normally immune, with ½ the dice, when you flank them. (I hope there are no Undead in your party, because Lightbringers kill Undead on sight.) Take Craven (Champions of Ruin, page 17) at level 6 to boost your sneak attack damage further.

[WeaselGuy]

Yeah, Curmudgeon's advice is (as per usual) rock solid. As is often the case, the best way to make a better monk is to take less levels of monk. In a low/no magic items campaign, it might actually be worth looking at a Vow of Poverty build, or perhaps Sacred Fist or Enlightened Fist (by multiclassing with Cleric or Wizard, respectively). Unfortunately, with your mental stats, multiclassing with a caster doesn't look too good.

Definitely go with Ascetic Rogue, and I'd say look into Vow of Poverty. But only if you don't have any Evil party members.

[Acanous]

your 112 Con is pretty OP already.

Seriously though you've got a typo on your CON there. Unless it's not, in which case you're doing awesome.

[AvatarVecna]

your 112 Con is pretty OP already.

Seriously though you've got a typo on your CON there. Unless it's not, in which case you're doing awesome.

He should multiclass into Dragonfire Adept...or find a way to base everything on Constitution.

[StriderITP]

Take Martial Monk and use it to take Improved Combat Reflexes. Then, take Dodge as your real life feat so you can avoid books being thrown at you.

[AvatarVecna]

Take Martial Monk and use it to take Improved Combat Reflexes. Then, take Dodge as your real life feat so you can avoid books being thrown at you.

Dodge only works on one target at a time, and your fellow players will probably help the DM pelt you with hard cover books.

EDIT: Plus, if you got to gain a feat IRL, why would you waste it on Dodge?

[Curmudgeon]

Take Martial Monk and use it to take Improved Combat Reflexes.
What's the point? The Monk Bonus Feat class feature gives you freedom to select bonus feats without meeting prerequisites, but has no bypass to also be able to use those feats. This gives you some flexibility in selecting feats when it's convenient rather than only after you qualify. But selecting a feat you can't use for many levels just hurts the character.

[nedz]

The optimal number of Monk levels is {0,2,4,6,11} in that order.
Monk 3 just doesn't buy you very much.

The best way to use Decisive Strike (PH2 51), which you mentioned, is to create an AoO build so that you get double damage on AoOs as well as your one attack. Combat Reflexes is pretty much the starting point here, but there are a number of other feats which can increase the number of situations which generate AoOs.

Examples:
Hold the Line ( Complete Warrior p100)
Robilar's Gambit ( Player's Handbook II p82)

A Reach weapon, and/or some way of becoming Large, will also help here.

[Curmudgeon]

The optimal number of Monk levels is {0,2,4,6,11} in that order.
With Invisible Fist you get Blink as a SLA at level 9.

[Troacctid]

The optimal number of Monk levels is {0,2,4,6,11} in that order.

You forgot 7. Shadow Blend is probably the Monk's most powerful class ability.

[nedz]

OK guys. I've been posting my standard tuple for a while now.

What should it look like ?

[Curmudgeon]

You forgot 7. Shadow Blend is probably the Monk's most powerful class ability.
Really? The standard action required to use Shadow Blend means the Dark Moon Disciple Monk can just sit out most combats, but I wouldn't exactly call that "powerful".

[Troacctid]

I would say {0,1,2,7,6,3,4,5,9,11,12}.


Really? The standard action required to use Shadow Blend means the Dark Moon Disciple Monk can just sit out most combats, but I wouldn't exactly call that "powerful".
It requires a standard action, but it also has a very long duration.

[nedz]

3 and 5 — really ?
How do you justify these ?

Also my original tuple was in order to reinforce the idea that less Monk is more: because opportunity cost.

[Rubik]

Take one level less in monk, add dungeoncrasher fighter, swap out all of your class features for alternative class features, (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.msg24996#msg24996) and optimize the wazoo out of your unarmed strikes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863).

Optimize bull rushes with your unarmed strikes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?466884-Making-a-human-Dungeon-Crasher&p=20140412#post20140412) and do stuff like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?460694-A-o-O-bliteration).

[Troacctid]

3 and 5 — really ?
How do you justify these ?

Certain builds require Still Mind, e.g. Psionic Fist, but mainly it's for Lay on Hands.

5 has a decent planar substitution level and is a common break point for a straight Monk to enter a prestige class.

[Curmudgeon]

It requires a standard action, but it also has a very long duration.
Yes, so the the Monk can sit out even a very long combat. Or, more realistically, disappear into the shadows and sleep through the night without being noticed. It's on par with Rope Trick for defensive utility. But then, just staying inside a well-garrisoned town would accomplish the same. Still not what I'd think of as "powerful".

[nedz]

Certain builds require Still Mind, e.g. Psionic Fist, but mainly it's for Lay on Hands.

5 has a decent planar substitution level and is a common break point for a straight Monk to enter a prestige class.

Still mind is quite unimportant: Monk has 3 good saves, and likely reasonable Wis and the bonus is very situational. It may be useful for a few builds, but as general advice I don't think so. Lay on Hands I can sort of see except that Cha is the only dump stat in a very MAD class.

Monk 6 gives +1 BAB, +1 on all saves and a bonus feat over Monk 5. Monk 5 gives very little over Monk 4 — just one class feature.

I still think my original tuple is good for a Core Monk, though ACFs do change that.

[AvatarVecna]

Still mind is quite unimportant: Monk has 3 good saves, and likely reasonable Wis and the bonus is very situational.

I think they meant that Still Mind is a common pre-req for Monk options like feats and PrCs.

[nedz]

I think they meant that Still Mind is a common pre-req for Monk options like feats and PrCs.

The Pre-req for the Psionic Fist feat is Str 13, not Still Mind. I can find no feats which have this as a pre-req.

Still Mind is a Pre-req for the Psionic Fist PrC but you are still short of 2 BAB and some skill ranks.
Monk 4 gets you +1 to BAB and all saves, as well as the relevant skills and a few further beans. Now you could dip some other class - you will likely want to do that anyway - but Psionic Fist does advance Monk abilities.

Psionic Fist does seem to be a fairly marginal PrC and I'm not aware of any others which have this pre-req.

[Troacctid]

Yes, so the the Monk can sit out even a very long combat. Or, more realistically, disappear into the shadows and sleep through the night without being noticed. It's on par with Rope Trick for defensive utility. But then, just staying inside a well-garrisoned town would accomplish the same. Still not what I'd think of as "powerful".

Nothing stops you from fighting while using shadow blend. The concealment doesn't go away if you attack.

[Curmudgeon]

Nothing stops you from fighting while using shadow blend. The concealment doesn't go away if you attack.
Yes, but it's dependent on disappearing into the shadows, which means moving out of those shadows negates the concealment. You can only fight while using Shadow Blend if your enemies are foolish enough to stay within reach of you in your shadows. If I got kicked whenever I got adjacent to some shadowy area, I'd stay clear.

[Troacctid]

Yes, but it's dependent on disappearing into the shadows, which means moving out of those shadows negates the concealment. You can only fight while using Shadow Blend if your enemies are foolish enough to stay within reach of you in your shadows. If I got kicked whenever I got adjacent to some shadowy area, I'd stay clear.

That's only relevant in a fight where some areas are shadowy and some are in daylight. If you don't have to leave the shadowy area—e.g. in a dungeon, or during the night—it's not an issue. There's no requirement that you remain within a single, specific shadow.

[Curmudgeon]

That's only relevant in a fight where some areas are shadowy and some are in daylight. If you don't have to leave the shadowy area—e.g. in a dungeon, or during the night—it's not an issue. There's no requirement that you remain within a single, specific shadow.
I think you've got an expansionist view of this ability. The Monk can "disappear into the shadows", not into all contiguous squares containing some amount of shadows.
A definite article indicates that its noun is a particular one which is identifiable to the listener.

[Troacctid]

Yes, the shadows. AKA the area of shade or comparative darkness.


2. shade or comparative darkness, as in an area.

[Curmudgeon]

And there you go, skipping right over the definite article. The Monk hides in the shadows in their location. They can't be hiding in the shadows other than where the Monk is located. There may also be shadows a few squares over, but those are different shadows from those used for Shadow Blend.

[Troacctid]

"Shadows" is used as a mass noun in this context, not a count noun. The Monk blends into "the shadows" in the same way that darkvision allows her to see in "the dark," the Swim skill allows her to move through "the water," and the Jump skill allows her to jump into "the air."

[Curmudgeon]

"Shadows" is used as a mass noun in this context, not a count noun. The Monk blends into "the shadows" in the same way that darkvision allows her to see in "the dark," the Swim skill allows her to move through "the water," and the Jump skill allows her to jump into "the air."
Sure, but the only shadows the Monk can be disappearing into are the ones in their location. Unless you've got a rules citation for connectivity of shadows?

[Troacctid]

Sure, but the only shadows the Monk can be disappearing into are the ones in their location. Unless you've got a rules citation for connectivity of shadows?

Of course they can only disappear into the shadows at their location--hence why the ability only works in lighting conditions other than full daylight. (You can't disappear into the shadows two miles over yonder.) There's no rule that says you lose the concealment if you move, and no reason I can see why that would be the case.

[Curmudgeon]

There's no rule that says you lose the concealment if you move, and no reason I can see why that would be the case.
Well, obviously because the lighting conditions are different in a new location than where you blended into the shadows.

[Troacctid]

Yes, if you later enter an area of daylight, you no longer meet the conditions for the ability. I don't think that was ever in dispute.