Xykon and Soon fight...

[Sigbru]

Who do you think would win if Xykon was 100% health and full of Spells and Soon was alone ( but still incorporeal )
I never played D&D in my life but i would bet in Soon, he don't see like he is even hurt
By the way loved Xykon expression when talking to Redcloak

[Lord Zentei]

Xykon was unaware of the deal with the incorporeal only being 50% affected by lightning and fire before Redcloak told him about it. Also, Xykon got a full Heal (Harm) so he was at full hit points when he attacked Soon.

Though he was low on spell slots when he attacked Soon, it's not as though he would have been able to capitalize on them without the above knowledge.

I give it to Soon.

[Ramos]

Meteor Swarm is 4 meteors of 9d6 each, no save. Assuming 2 of the meteors hit each time, that's 18d6 damage. Soon has d12 HD. Even if he's 21-25 HD, three to four meteor swarms destroy him. If Xykon is 20 HD, he can cast at least six meteor swarms.

Maximised Magic Missile is 25 points of damage, no save, no nothing. Soon would have about 150 HP-so 6-7 maximised magic missiles should kill him.

Furthermore, Soon is incorporeal-so he has a fly speed equal to 1/2 his previous land speed-or 30 ft fly speed if he's an actual Ghost. Xykon has a fly speed of 60 ft due to his fly spell or 40 ft due to overland flight.

Finally, Xykon could cast Forcecage or Repulsion and thus prevent Soon from going anywhere near him.



The only reason Soon won in their duel is Xykon's abysmal wisdom and intelligence scores and thus his inability to work out a good strategy. Xykon is his own greatest enemy.

[Ancalagon]

Xykon only has bad wis... he has shown signs of above average, maybe even high int from time to time... if he talks about stuff, it totally makes sense and shows a great deal of deeper understanding - yet he often does not care or does not thing something is worth deeper thought.

[Drakron]

Meteor Swarm is 4 meteors of 9d6 each, no save. Assuming 2 of the meteors hit each time, that's 18d6 damage. Soon has d12 HD. Even if he's 21-25 HD, three to four meteor swarms destroy him. If Xykon is 20 HD, he can cast at least six meteor swarms.


Wrong.

First, its a fire spell.
Second its have a reflex save for half damage.


Maximised Magic Missile is 25 points of damage, no save, no nothing. Soon would have about 150 HP-so 6-7 maximised magic missiles should kill him.

First, a Shield spell negates all damage from Magic Missile.
Second, Ghost template gives d12 he can have from 24 hp to 240 hp.
Three, Maximized Magic Missile would take 4th level slots meaning only 6 of then plus any bonus spells for high charisma.


Furthermore, Soon is incorporeal-so he has a fly speed equal to 1/2 his previous land speed-or 30 ft fly speed if he's an actual Ghost. Xykon has a fly speed of 60 ft due to his fly spell or 40 ft due to overland flight.


First, Ghosts have a fly speed of 30 feet, unless the base creature has a higher fly speed, with perfect maneuverability.

Second, it costs the Ghost NOTHING as the others are spells that cost something.



Finally, Xykon could cast Forcecage or Repulsion and thus prevent Soon from going anywhere near him.

Forcecage would work but Repulsion have a will save and only last for about 20 rounds.


The only reason Soon won in their duel is Xykon's abysmal wisdom and intelligence scores and thus his inability to work out a good strategy. Xykon is his own greatest enemy.

No, its because spellcasters are not the end-of-all classes in D&D (clerics do get pretty close to that), they have weakness and arcane spellcasters are not very good with undead creatures with sorcerors having a very restricted spell selection.

Soon did win by numbers, the fact Xykon is pretty much a "fireball" spellcaster and because he is a Paladin ghost fighting a Lich.

[Irenaeus]

Wrong.

First, its a fire spell.
Second its have a reflex save for half damage.

Actually, when Meteor Swarm is aimed at an individual it requires a touch attack, but the target recieves no save.



First, a Shield spell negates all damage from Magic Missile.
Second, Ghost template gives d12 he can have from 24 hp to 240 hp.
Three, Maximized Magic Missile would take 4th level slots meaning only 6 of then plus any bonus spells for high charisma.

First, we have no indication of Soon being able to cast arcane spells.
Second, if we assume that he is HD 20 (which is only a wild guess), he has a extremely low probability of having hp outside of the main range with so many dice involved.
Third, Empowered Magic Missile would work almost as a Maximized one well with an average damage of 22.5 hp. That gives him more than enough ammunition in the magic missile department.

[RocketBard]

The only reason Soon won in their duel is Xykon's abysmal wisdom and intelligence scores and thus his inability to work out a good strategy. Xykon is his own greatest enemy.

I would give Xykon a high intelligence score because he's a sorceror and a lich, but his wisdom would be low.

I also think that Xykon would be able to beat Soon.

[Recurve]

If Soon is so much more powerful than the other paladins that were guarding the gem, how did he end up as a ghost?

[chibibar]

I am betting Soon has some extra abilities or house rule that are not listed... if we are using pure SRD. Xykon would have won, but since this is Giant World.. I would say Soon would have won :)

[Wrecan]

If Soon is so much more powerful than the other paladins that were guarding the gem, how did he end up as a ghost?

Soon died of old age.

[drKarling]

If Soon is so much more powerful than the other paladins that were guarding the gem, how did he end up as a ghost?
Old age.
After all, it's been 60+ years since he started guarding the Gate and he wasn't young even then.

*Ninja'd*

[Spiryt]

If Soon is so much more powerful than the other paladins that were guarding the gem, how did he end up as a ghost?

I dont exactly understand... He died beacuse of old age, and he probably became a ghost beacuse we wanted to defend gate even after death.

[Gavin Sage]

If Soon is so much more powerful than the other paladins that were guarding the gem, how did he end up as a ghost?

Simple, he died of old age and came back as an incorporeal deathless for the occaison.


Finally, Xykon could cast Forcecage or Repulsion and thus prevent Soon from going anywhere near him.

Xykon is a Sorceror, does he even know Forcecage? Probably considered it redundant with his version, which wouldn't be very useful against a guy that can go through the floor.

I always love caster arguments that dictate "well they only have to cast X" and thus win since it makes massive assumptions about knowing said spell if a Sorceror or having it prepared (and known) for anyone else.

[ZeroNumerous]

First, a Shield spell negates all damage from Magic Missile.
Second, Ghost template gives d12 he can have from 24 hp to 240 hp.
Three, Maximized Magic Missile would take 4th level slots meaning only 6 of then plus any bonus spells for high charisma.

Forgetting that Xykon has atleast 17 levels of Sorcerer? He has 6 4th level spell slots. Then 6 fifth level. Then 6th sixth level.. Etc.. And he can use them all to cast Empowered Maximized Magic Missile. Thats 37 damage and nothing Soon can do to stop it.

Or he could just cast one Forcecage on him and move on with his life.


No, its because spellcasters are not the end-of-all classes in D&D (clerics do get pretty close to that), they have weakness and arcane spellcasters are not very good with undead creatures with sorcerors having a very restricted spell selection.

I don't know where you're getting that, but seriously, a spellcaster against a melee fighter is pretty much endgame in high-levels. And an undead sorcerer is crazy if you read Libris Mortis, or have Sandstorm.

EDIT to Gavin: Read Forcecage.


Windowless Cell

This version of the spell produces a 10-foot cube with no way in and no way out. Solid walls of force form its six sides.

[tanonev]

Actually, when Meteor Swarm is aimed at an individual it requires a touch attack, but the target recieves no save.

But since Soon is incorporeal, can you make a ranged touch attack on him and/or deal bludgeoning damage to him?

Also, would Soon have spell resistance of any sort?

EDIT: Soon also gets access to a number of spells. I'm looking at Resist Energy in particular. Since Xykon's idea of fighting "ghosts" is spamming fire and electricity, Soon can use Resist Energy on fire and electricity and dramatically reduce the amount of damage he takes. Finally, don't forget Soon's Lay on Hands. Soon almost certainly has at least 18 charisma, and if we assume Soon's level 20, that's a nice 80 HP that he can drain from Xykon (if the DM allows it) or heal himself with. (If Soon is level 22, he becomes virtually immune to Xykon's blaster spells.)

Xykon's main weakness is that he doesn't remember the rules well enough to fight Soon optimally. (He's an NPC; his metagaming level is set to "humor.") He wouldn't have even thought about Magic Missile had Redcloak not told him. Oh, and Xykon has Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage, not Forcecage :smallwink:

[moscatabaco]

IMO, I don't think :xykon; 's neither stupid nor brilliant. Clearly, Wisdom was his dump stat. He's too dispersed to pay attention to plans and his whole strategy was the brute force approach (contrasted by :redcloak: , who is clearly intelligent [I should know - I never managed higher than C at chem!]and good at strategy)

One of the weaknesses of Sorcerers vs. Wizards is precisely that sorcerers can't customize their spells to confront what's coming. Even if :xykon: had known what awaited him at the zapphire room, he would have been unable to prepare different spells (the moderately escapable force cage wouldn't do anything to Soon - he just would've sink in the floor to escape!)

Obviously :xycon: ran out of 9th level spells blasting the Ghost Martyrs with meteor swarms - one on one, maybe one of his other 9th level spells might have worked (wonder if he has wish?). I think in a one-on-one battle :xykon: would've had a chance (like 60%). He lacks knowledge religion, and that spelled doom for him...

If he had arrived with :redclack: on first place, they would've, of course, obliterated the ghost martyrs.

[Lord_Butters_I]

The fact of the matter in D&D is that a spellcaster will completely pwn a mage in 1-vs-1 every time. A couple of high level damage spells coupled with some buffs and Soon is doomed.

[kirbsys]

Whoever it would help progress the plot to win would win because in OOTS they fight with a plus or minus plot to every roll.:smallbiggrin:

[Kreistor]

But since Soon is incorporeal, can you make a ranged touch attack on him and/or deal bludgeoning damage to him?

Yes, you can.

Soon gets a 50% miss chance on each touch attack, and then those that don't miss have to hit his touch AC. All the missiles that miss for any reason explode at a corner of his square. Those that hit deal full damage, no save. Soon doesn't really have much chance to not be hit by the 50% that get through miss chance, so it is reasonable to say 2 impact him for full damage.

Those that miss explode at a corner of Soon's square. He then gets a 50% miss chance on each of those followed by a reflex save to avoid half damage. Soon is a paladin, so his Ref save is poor even though he gets his Cha bonus. He has a good chance of taking half damage on half the missiles that explode.

So, of the four that are cast, two will hit him with 95% probability. Of the two that miss, one will miss entirely, and the other will do 10% half the time and 50% half the time, so average that to 75%.

So... Soon will take 4D6 bludgeoning and 16.5D6 Fire for 20D6 damage overall, if he has no exceptional resistances.

Soon will have 20D12 HP (no Con for having no physical body), which approximates 40D6. It would only take two Meteor Swarms to kill Soon.

[DraPrime]

We don't know the details of the "good ghost" template that Soon has. Clearly it makes him one badass undead epic paladin. If you assume that he was purely a ghost with a good alignment then yes, Xykon did have a better chance at winning. Not that this would have guaranteed a win. After all, Soon could have taken the Extra smiting feat many times meaning insane smite evil capabilities. And let's not forget how much smite evil hurts considering the fact that Soon is most likely epic.

[Querzis]

Sure Xykon can deal a lot of damage to Soon in a short time...but Soon can do that too! He is a nearly epic level paladin. His smite evil hurt Xykon a LOT! Xykon is a sorceror lich, you really think he has many hit point? Its just math really, sure Xykon with all his spell could deal a lot of damage to Soon but 4 or 5 smite evil and Xykon is destroyed because Soon obviously has much more hit points then Xykon. And if Soon is really epic then sorry but Xykon had no chance to win no matter how you see it (but I dont think he is epic since Durokan wasnt). By the way, its not fair to say that «If he know he is going to fight Soon and use those spells then he could win». You rarely know what you are going to fight before you fight it. Beside he his a sorcerer, he doesnt have a whole lot of spells, it seems to me that he was only using lightning and fire to attack them because he pretty just has lightning and fire spells.

[tanonev]

Soon gets a 50% miss chance on each touch attack, and then those that don't miss have to hit his touch AC. All the missiles that miss for any reason explode at a corner of his square. Those that hit deal full damage, no save. Soon doesn't really have much chance to not be hit by the 50% that get through miss chance, so it is reasonable to say 2 impact him for full damage.

But the bludgeoning damage and the fire damage are two separate events (the former for being hit by the meteor in meteor form, and the latter for the meteor exploding), so doesn't the 50% miss rate apply to the fire damage even if the touch attack succeeds?

Alternatively, why not compute each touch attack's success normally, then apply the 50% miss rate to each meteor individually?

Either way, you can't "double count" the 50% hit rate on an individual meteor's fire damage.

In any case, a Resist Energy spell would still greatly reduce the amount of fire damage taken.

Alternatively, Soon can simply stay near the gate. Then Xykon can't Meteor Swarm without risking the destruction of the gate. Yes, Xykon could blast him from afar, but we've seen that for whatever reason, Xykon likes his fights up close and personal.

[the_tick_rules]

Xykon lost, deal with it.

[DraPrime]

And let's not forget who controls the OOTS universe. Rich Berlew. It doesn't matter how powerful a character is, because if Rich wants them dead, they're dead.

[Keldaria]

Xykon lost, deal with it.

Actually i suspect that soon's ghost is no more.. interesting predicament but i wonder if the same crystal that seals the gate also binds the paladin souls to the room as a last ditch defence of the gate itself.. and with it be smashed.. well .. bye bye soon. it is painfully cleaver that rich didn't do a wide angle shot of the room as the crystal was being smashed .. purhaps to hide its true effect

[Godhand]

Sure Xykon can deal a lot of damage to Soon in a short time...but Soon can do that too! He is a nearly epic level paladin. His smite evil hurt Xykon a LOT! Xykon is a sorceror lich, you really think he has many hit point? Its just math really, sure Xykon with all his spell could deal a lot of damage to Soon but 4 or 5 smite evil and Xykon is destroyed because Soon obviously has much more hit points then Xykon. And if Soon is really epic then sorry but Xykon had no chance to win no matter how you see it (but I dont think he is epic since Durokan wasnt). By the way, its not fair to say that «If he know he is going to fight Soon and use those spells then he could win». You rarely know what you are going to fight before you fight it. Beside he his a sorcerer, he doesnt have a whole lot of spells, it seems to me that he was only using lightning and fire to attack them because he pretty just has lightning and fire spells.

Liches have d12 hit dice and Xykon is at least a 17th level sorc. That's 17d12 or an average of 119 HP. Like other people have mentioned Xykon had already used up the majority of his high level spells throughout the entire battle and on the lesser ghost pallys. At full power I think it would be close, but Xykon could probably pull it off.

[Gavin Sage]

Actually i suspect that soon's ghost is no more.. interesting predicament but i wonder if the same crystal that seals the gate also binds the paladin souls to the room as a last ditch defence of the gate itself.. and with it be smashed.. well .. bye bye soon. it is painfully cleaver that rich didn't do a wide angle shot of the room as the crystal was being smashed .. purhaps to hide its true effect

The Sapphire is an epic magic item so it generating the deathless isn't a bad thought. That would be its defensive measure like how Dorukan's zapped goblins. However that's not particularly relevant to Soon and Xykon as while it may send our paladin to eternity for keeps, it also eliminates why Xykon wanted the room in the first place. Also under the circumstances it means Miko beat Soon not, Xykon.

Assuming its what giving out deathless template.

[Setra]

EDIT to Gavin: Read Forcecage.
I'd just like to note that Xykon has a modified force-cage.

[Gavin Sage]

Liches have d12 hit dice and Xykon is at least a 17th level sorc. That's 17d12 or an average of 119 HP. Like other people have mentioned Xykon had already used up the majority of his high level spells throughout the entire battle and on the lesser ghost pallys. At full power I think it would be close, but Xykon could probably pull it off.

Umm given Xykon's spell selection that means Soon survived all those attacks already. He obviously favors blasting spells which tend to simply get bigger, and Soon by all appearances was in the front line the whole time. So what he wasted on the other paladins he wasted on Soon.

Soon wins because 50% of the time he won't take damage. That's a great defense on top of being a paladin in melee against evil. He's can reliably hit everytime, Xykon can't.

[IncredibleMel]

Ok people, listen up, cause there's a few things you aren't taking into account.

To start with, Soon's not just a Ghost. He's a Ghost Paladin. That means high base attack bonus, smite evil, lay on hands (which deals damage to undead creatures) and his own path of, while not extremely effective, they are there, spells.

And who knows what armour he's wearing? Or what kind of creature he is? He may have spell resistance for all we know.

But Can I point something out to you all? Lay on hands as a touch attack+smite evil as part of the attack for the win.
Edited cause I realized my English was affected by the dread force known as leet.

[Kreistor]

But the bludgeoning damage and the fire damage are two separate events (the former for being hit by the meteor in meteor form, and the latter for the meteor exploding), so doesn't the 50% miss rate apply to the fire damage even if the touch attack succeeds?

No: the damage is a result of the successful hit. For it to have hit, something must have been there to take the damage.

Look at it this way: if a sword attacks, you get a 50% miss chance on the sword and then the sword hits. You don't get another 50% chance to avoid the damage after the hit.


Alternatively, why not compute each touch attack's success normally, then apply the 50% miss rate to each meteor individually?

No, because a Flaming sword does not have another miss chance on the fire damage. Something was there to explode the missile, so something is there to take the damage.


Either way, you can't "double count" the 50% hit rate on an individual meteor's fire damage.

In this case you can. A non-incorporeal has to deal with the damage possibility twice: the touch attack miss followed by the AE Save. Meteor Swarm is nasty because it provides two chances at dealing damage. Incorporeality doesn't change that damage model.


In any case, a Resist Energy spell would still greatly reduce the amount of fire damage taken.

It is Meteor Swarms antithesis, surely. We don't, however, see it cast by Soon, nor any other casting by him.


Alternatively, Soon can simply stay near the gate. Then Xykon can't Meteor Swarm without risking the destruction of the gate. Yes, Xykon could blast him from afar, but we've seen that for whatever reason, Xykon likes his fights up close and personal.

Actually, Meteor Swarm is not good at destroying objects. There's no chance of impact with the RTA. So the Swarm is only doing 6D6 damage 4 times. Each missile averages 21 damage. Divide that by two for being fire (see the destroying objects with magic section, sonic and acid are the only things that are good at destroying objects), for 10 damage. Subtract hardness, call it 8 for being mineral. The gem takes, on average, 8 damage. It ought to be able to soak that much up. Fire is not a good way to destroy objects.

[Kreistor]

To start with, Soon's not just a Ghost. He's a Ghost Paladin. That means high base attack bonus, smite evil, lay on hands (which deals damage to undead creatures) and his own path of, while not extremely effective, they are there, spells.

No one is denying that.


And who knows what armour he's wearing? Or what kind of creature he is? He may have spell resistance for all we know.

If he has any serious equipment at all, I will scream murder. No one else in the story has that sort of thing, save for a couple random pieces here and there. Xykon should have 100's of GP in equipment, too, but the Giant hasn't allowed him that. Equipping Soon and not Xykon is inappropriately inconsistent.

[quoteBut Can I point something out to you all? Lay on hands as a touch attack+smite evil as part of the attack for the win.[/QUOTE]

You can only Smite Evil with a "normal melee attack". Lay on hands is supernatural, which is not normal.

[Kreistor]

Xykon lost, deal with it.

It didn't start as a one-on-one. Xykon had a hundred paladin ghosts to deal with. As part of the theoretical exercise of this thread, this story's fight is not a model of what woould happen in a true duel.

[Chronos]

Assuming that Ghost Martyrs can use Lay On Hands, then Soon could have killed Xykon in one or two rounds. Assume both of them are 20th level. That gives Xykon an average of 130 HP. Soon, meanwhile, probably has a Charisma modifier of about +6 or +7 (it probably started decently high, plus that's the most likely choice for a paladin to pump when levelling, plus 3 more from aging, since he died of old age). That means that his Lay On Hands, all by itself, is worth 120-140 points, quite possibly enough to kill Xykon in a single touch attack. If it doesn't (Soon's charisma on the low end of my estimate, or lucky Hit Dice rolls on Xykon's part), then he follows up the next round with a Full Attack of Smite Evils, each of which has a great attack bonus, and does 20 bonus damage. I don't think that Xykon has anything which can kill Soon in two rounds, and Xykon also has to worry about his spells fizzling (which has happened, in this fight).

However, since this is not, in fact, how the fight went, I think we have to assume either that Soon forgot about his Lay On Hands ability (unlikely, given the high level of tactical thinking he demonstrates), or that Ghost Martyrs, whatever they are, don't have access to Lay On Hands. So that leaves Smite Evil as Soon's primary attack.

Now, there's one other problem that Xykon has as well. Meteor Swarm does a fair bit of damage, but it's an area effect spell. If Soon keeps charging Xykon, Xykon won't be able to get far enough away for safety. And if he casts a Meteor Swarm at melee range, he'll end up doing more damage to himself (since he's not incorporeal, and he doesn't have a Charisma bonus to his saves). So he'll have to use spells weaker than Meteor Swarm. He could use, say, Maximized Empowered Lightning Bolts, but sorcerers cast metamagic spells as full-round actions (at least), which are much easier to fizzle.