Hexblade Class: Battle, Misfortune, and Shadow Archetypes

[Ivellius]

Well, so that I can enter the class contest JNAProductions is running I needed to post a topic here. A while back, someone on Facebook mentioned the idea of a Hexblade class, and it got my mind to wondering: how the 3e version could be ported to 5e effectively. Given that it was a martial / caster hybrid with some buffing / debuffing centered on magic, the Paladin seemed like an effective chassis. Although there are several differences even in the basic class features and such, it's deliberately very similar in terms of progressions and uses several Paladin class features, though they should be fluffed as manipulating luck / fortune.

Anyway, here's the link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qoQYoz11pZ7wVqC31OyFpyIKWRfPMJlBALJ0bJmfXhk/edit#heading=h.gjdgxs).

Just a few thoughts I've had while working on it:


Does Hexblade's Fortune compare favorably to the paladin's Lay on Hands? Too strong?

Does the Hexblade Strike (extra psychic damage from spell slots) need limitations? Unlike the paladin, this currently works with ranged weapons.

Is "Channel Curse" too limited? If I were to distinguish it more from the paladin, this is probably where I'd focus. Would it be better to work on this aspect of the class versus cribbing auras that was done to make the hexblade work as a supportive character?

How do the archetypes feel? Battle, Misfortune, and Shadow seemed like natural extensions of the base class and gave me an opportunity to include some of previous variants and fluff.

Is Charisma the best choice for casting? Does Intelligence make more sense?

[PoeticDwarf]

Well, so that I can enter the class contest JNAProductions is running I needed to post a topic here. A while back, someone on Facebook mentioned the idea of a Hexblade class, and it got my mind to wondering: how the 3e version could be ported to 5e effectively. Given that it was a martial / caster hybrid with some buffing / debuffing centered on magic, the Paladin seemed like an effective chassis. Although there are several differences even in the basic class features and such, it's deliberately very similar in terms of progressions and uses several Paladin class features, though they should be fluffed as manipulating luck / fortune.

Anyway, here's the link (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qoQYoz11pZ7wVqC31OyFpyIKWRfPMJlBALJ0bJmfXhk/edit#heading=h.gjdgxs).

Just a few thoughts I've had while working on it:


Does Hexblade's Fortune compare favorably to the paladin's Lay on Hands? Too strong?

Does the Hexblade Strike (extra psychic damage from spell slots) need limitations? Unlike the paladin, this currently works with ranged weapons.

Is "Channel Curse" too limited? If I were to distinguish it more from the paladin, this is probably where I'd focus. Would it be better to work on this aspect of the class versus cribbing auras that was done to make the hexblade work as a supportive character?

How do the archetypes feel? Battle, Misfortune, and Shadow seemed like natural extensions of the base class and gave me an opportunity to include some of previous variants and fluff.

Is Charisma the best choice for casting? Does Intelligence make more sense?


The class is cool, one thing, it is in most ways better than a paladin, stealing features as spell slot for extra damage and aura of protection makes the class too strong. First, Hexblade's fortune is way stronger than Lay on Hands, and second the class is too much as paladin but better (as I said).

[Ivellius]

The class is cool, one thing, it is in most ways better than a paladin, stealing features as spell slot for extra damage and aura of protection makes the class too strong. First, Hexblade's fortune is way stronger than Lay on Hands, and second the class is too much as paladin but better (as I said).

Armor proficiency is worse, and I think the damage type on their smite ability is also worse (psychic resistance seems more common than radiant), but that may not be enough to make them actually weaker given that they can smite with ranged weapons.

In what way do you think Hexblade's Fortune is weaker than Lay on Hands? I'm not saying it is or isn't, but you can't use it all at one time like LoH, it still takes your action, and it almost has to be a combat action because they disappear so quickly once used. On the other hand, it can be used on enemies to debuff them, and preventing an attack is generally better than just healing 5 hit points after the fact.

Otherwise, basically everything other than the spell list and archetypes are identical to what the Paladin gets. Spell selection is focused more on damage and debuffs, obviously, but I feel confident the archetype options are balanced compared with the Paladin's. How do you think these are better?

[Flashy]

This seems totally solid. The base class is largely based on the paladin chassis, so the balance there is really quite straightforward. I have only a couple random comments/questions, mostly about archetype features.

1. I'd really like to see the spell list beefed up. As is a 20th level Hexblade with 20 charisma will be able to prepare 25 of the 26 spells on the list, assuming they've found them all. Even if they haven't the normal spell progression sees them learning 22 in the course of 20 levels of progression which doesn't leave a lot of room for individuality. Actually, having double checked the spellcasting entry, can they copy spells into their spellbook? If so you should add specific language allowing it and if not then in the current progression a hexblade with 16 charisma perpetually has more spells prepared than spells known (5 prepared vs 4 known at 2nd level, 6 vs 5 at 3rd level, and so on).

2. The battle hexblade's Devastating Strike channel curse option makes a crit exceptionally nasty. Not sure if it's gamebreaking, but that is some crazy burst.

3. With the Dark Companion channel curse option, what if a shadow hexblade hasn't got Find Familiar on their spell list? It's wildly unlikely (and would be pretty dumb), but it is technically possible. Perhaps Find Familiar should replace one of the shadow archetype spells?

4. I generally don't like channel options that boil down to "turn undead but it works on eeeeveryone" but Invoke Terror seems completely reasonable, balanced, and maintains the flavor. With that really short duration I'd guess you could even increase the radius to 15 or maybe 20 feet without it being a problem, since frightening somewhere between 0 and 4 creatures for a turn isn't a whole lot of bang for your channel curse buck.

[Arkhios]

I'll dive deeper into the details once I get the chance to read the whole thing. For now, I have one suggestion:
Since the class is called HexBLADE, I wouldn't allow Hexblade Strike with every ranged weapon, instead limit it to bladed weapons, such as swords, daggers, possibly with sickle and scythe, and all similar weapons. For example, a scimitar is a sword with a curved blade, and while an axe has a sharp edge, it is not a blade per se. A dagger can be thrown, so it should be fine if the feature worked with them, too.

Edit: Now that I read it through more closely, the class seems a bit too much of a rip-off from paladin. Especially the Hexblade Strike is basically same as Divine Smite, only does Psychic damage. I have an idea, if you'd like to consider it:

Staying true to the core, at 2nd level, when they gain spellcasting, grant them Hex as a bonus spell known at all times, and when they hit, maybe they could instead of psychic damage deliver the effects of Hex spell as part of the hit, by expending a spell slot, as a paladin for Divine Smite. Maybe even have it last full duration without the need of concentration. At normal spell levels (in regards to Hex), the duration would increase as normal, still without the need for you to concentrate, if you delivered it through your hit. All in all, Divine Smite core mechanics remain the same, but this way it would feel a bit more unique.

As I recall from 3rd edition Hexblade, it was a Charisma based caster, wasn't it? I don't see a reason why change it. It doesn't matter if there are a lot of charisma based casters already, in my opinion each class should be perceived in their own terms, not comparing them to how many others use the same ability.

I agree with EnderDwarf stating that hexblade's fortune is a bit too strong (and not weaker than LoH!). The feature basically means you have a maximum of 20 uses of bane / bless each long rest, usable without expending a spell slot! That's HUGE amount of 1st level spells, comparably. As a change, I would have the pool have uses equal to their charisma modifier (minimum of once), like Bardic Inspiration.

Likewise Aura of Protection is a bit too much for Hexblade. I admit, I don't have the book where Hexblade was introduced, so I don't know if Hexblades did get their charisma modifier to their saving throws (like paladins of the old did), but both thematically and mechanically, the aura feels a little out of place for a Hexblade. As a replacement you could have their pool of Hexblade's Fortune to replenish on short rest instead of long rest (like - again - with Bard's Font of Inspiration; maybe call it Font of Fortune for Hexblade).

IF you still feel the Hexblade needs a supportive aura of sorts similar to Paladin's Aura of Protection, you could give them an aura which aids with advantage on something related to the Fortune theme.

[CreepyShutIn]

While I agree for the most part with the above, there are a couple of additional things I think deserve a mention:

First off, why does the curse not work on mindless things? From what I remember of Hexblade fluff, they're not messing with their enemies' minds, they're messing with their fortune, hence the name. A Hexblade's enemy isn't mentally impaired so they screw themselves over; the universe is screwing them over and they just have to take it. The same applies to the other things that don't work on beings immune to psychic damage, like Crippling Touch.

Second, while mechanically balanced, I'm not sure how Aura of Mettle fits thematically. That one's more of a minor headscratcher. Overall, I'm not sure a support aura makes sense for the class, either Mettle or Protection. A debuff aura would probably be too strong unless it's a Channel option, and there are already plenty of those, but it still seems odd from a fluff perspective.

[Ivellius]

Good feedback; gonna go through it with some explanations and discussions and will probably make some changes to the class. This was a "quick-and-dirty" attempt at putting together something to fulfill this archetype and can undergo some iteration to give it more of its own identity.


This seems totally solid. The base class is largely based on the paladin chassis, so the balance there is really quite straightforward. I have only a couple random comments/questions, mostly about archetype features.

1. I'd really like to see the spell list beefed up. As is a 20th level Hexblade with 20 charisma will be able to prepare 25 of the 26 spells on the list, assuming they've found them all. Even if they haven't the normal spell progression sees them learning 22 in the course of 20 levels of progression which doesn't leave a lot of room for individuality. Actually, having double checked the spellcasting entry, can they copy spells into their spellbook? If so you should add specific language allowing it and if not then in the current progression a hexblade with 16 charisma perpetually has more spells prepared than spells known (5 prepared vs 4 known at 2nd level, 6 vs 5 at 3rd level, and so on).

2. The battle hexblade's Devastating Strike channel curse option makes a crit exceptionally nasty. Not sure if it's gamebreaking, but that is some crazy burst.

3. With the Dark Companion channel curse option, what if a shadow hexblade hasn't got Find Familiar on their spell list? It's wildly unlikely (and would be pretty dumb), but it is technically possible. Perhaps Find Familiar should replace one of the shadow archetype spells?

4. I generally don't like channel options that boil down to "turn undead but it works on eeeeveryone" but Invoke Terror seems completely reasonable, balanced, and maintains the flavor. With that really short duration I'd guess you could even increase the radius to 15 or maybe 20 feet without it being a problem, since frightening somewhere between 0 and 4 creatures for a turn isn't a whole lot of bang for your channel curse buck.

1. This is a fair criticism, though I don't think for this class the spellcasting should be *too* different for each individual. Would it be better to expand their class lists or just the base one? I kind of like the idea of the archetypes being more distinct from one another. It might also make more sense to have the archetype spells like the warlock's: you can just learn them rather than automatically having them. I think I actually forgot about this when I was making the spell list, that they were supposed to automatically get the archetype spells rather than choosing to learn them--otherwise I probably would have had a few more added already.

As written, they probably can't add spells they find. I don't actually mind that, given that they're a secondary caster, but the fridge logic might seem off. (I don't know if you'd say it was deliberate in that I didn't really think about it--I didn't intend for them to be able to add spells outside of leveling, but I also didn't think about it being odd if they couldn't, if that makes sense.)

2. This was intentional, given the archetype. It definitely has some nova potential, though.

3. Well, I want all hexblades to have find familiar as an option, so I'm more of the opinion that "If you want to use this class feature, you should pick this spell." They do get a second option for the Curse, so I'm pretty okay with this as a potential player "mistake."

4. Fey Warlock gets something similar (though it can also charm). I intentionally went conservative, but you're right that it could be a bit better.


I'll dive deeper into the details once I get the chance to read the whole thing. For now, I have one suggestion:
Since the class is called HexBLADE, I wouldn't allow Hexblade Strike with every ranged weapon, instead limit it to bladed weapons...

...

Staying true to the core, at 2nd level, when they gain spellcasting, grant them Hex as a bonus spell known at all times, and when they hit, maybe they could instead of psychic damage deliver the effects of Hex spell as part of the hit, by expending a spell slot, as a paladin for Divine Smite...

As I recall from 3rd edition Hexblade, it was a Charisma based caster, wasn't it? I don't see a reason why change it. It doesn't matter if there are a lot of charisma based casters already, in my opinion each class should be perceived in their own terms, not comparing them to how many others use the same ability.

I agree with EnderDwarf stating that hexblade's fortune is a bit too strong (and not weaker than LoH!). The feature basically means you have a maximum of 20 uses of bane / bless each long rest, usable without expending a spell slot! That's HUGE amount of 1st level spells, comparably. As a change, I would have the pool have uses equal to their charisma modifier (minimum of once), like Bardic Inspiration.

Likewise Aura of Protection is a bit too much for Hexblade. I admit, I don't have the book where Hexblade was introduced, so I don't know if Hexblades did get their charisma modifier to their saving throws (like paladins of the old did), but both thematically and mechanically, the aura feels a little out of place for a Hexblade...

1. Eh, making it only work with bladed weapons would just hamstring it if people liked the concept and wanted to use other weapons. As far as I recall none of the 3e classes with "blade" in the name restricted weapons like that unless they were intentionally focused on weapon mastery, which this is not.

2. I'm not entirely clear what you mean with your Hexblade's Strike suggestion. Just let them cast Hex as part of the Attack action and then it doesn't require concentration? That seems a bit strong to me--the spell is already a bonus action, and this would break the "Concentration economy." I may think of some other alternative, though.

3. I generally agree that classes should be judged on their own merits, but there are a few too many Charisma casters at the moment.

4. Hexblade's Fortune is...pretty bad compared to bless / bane, if you ask me. It requires an action, melee range, and can affect only 1 target at a time, and each die is spent once it's used. It does have a slight advantage if you put all 5 into a single character who wasn't going to make more than 5 rolls that would use it, and it at least doesn't require concentration, but otherwise it's pretty inferior to spell slots. It does have a bit more flexibility than Lay on Hands, but checks aren't as guaranteed as hit points, and it doesn't have the restorative properties. I'm open to modifying it, but I'm unconvinced so far.

5. Hexblades had Arcane Resistance and Mettle, and also partly for balance reasons I figured the easy thing is to keep it somewhat supportive and just keep those aura features intact. Also makes it less purely selfish than a hexblade might otherwise be, which seems to me to fit with 5e design decisions. It would be okay if they didn't, but they'd be really selfish without Hexblade's Fortune and the auras, and I like them being able to manipulate fate for their allies as well.


First off, why does the curse not work on mindless things? From what I remember of Hexblade fluff, they're not messing with their enemies' minds, they're messing with their fortune, hence the name. A Hexblade's enemy isn't mentally impaired so they screw themselves over; the universe is screwing them over and they just have to take it. The same applies to the other things that don't work on beings immune to psychic damage, like Crippling Touch.

Second, while mechanically balanced, I'm not sure how Aura of Mettle fits thematically. That one's more of a minor headscratcher. Overall, I'm not sure a support aura makes sense for the class, either Mettle or Protection. A debuff aura would probably be too strong unless it's a Channel option, and there are already plenty of those, but it still seems odd from a fluff perspective.

1. I want this 3e class to feel like a 5e class, and some things are going to get changed in the conversion. I feel like it makes sense for this suite of abilities to be more mind-affecting. The damage type is psychic, after all, going by 4e/5e keywords, and nothing else felt appropriate--necrotic is too evil / dark for what I'm going for and doesn't exactly fit "misfortune." It makes sense, then, to have them be unable to affect creatures that don't truly have a psyche. They're changing a creature's destiny / fortune, but it doesn't work unless that creature has a soul whose strands can be manipulated. Their curse as I envision it doesn't really change the entire universe so much as mess with a single creature.

2. As I mentioned above, the Hexblade had some (self-)protective features built in, and this makes it play more effectively with others. It also has the advantages of being likely balanced and is really easy to steal.

Anything else on how it all fits together? Hexblade's Curse (formerly "Channel Curse") is probably where I'd like to emphasize differences, but I'm definitely open to changing the Hexblade's Strike features as well if something fitting can be found. I've done a handful of very minor tweaks based on the feedback above.

Thinking about this as an 11th level option:

Hexblade’s Compensation
By 11th level, you can turn misfortune into your advantage. If you take the Attack action on your turn and miss with one of your weapon attacks, you can make one additional weapon attack with that same weapon before the end of your turn.

It seems to fit the thematic and ties into the "give martial classes more attack power at 11th level" feature (I stole this from a homebrew Ranger archetype, actually.)

[Sindeloke]

4. Hexblade's Fortune is...pretty bad compared to bless / bane, if you ask me.

Do remember that most things are pretty bad compared to bless/bane. Bless is the single best 1st-level spell in the game and a better use of your 2nd-level slots than a number of 2nd-level spells as well. A better comparison is the bard, who gets to give out a max of 5 d8s of Inspiration per short rest, one at a time as a bonus action. Over the course of an average 2-rest full day, that's similar (10d8/20d4), but the Hexblade has a better delivery system (1 action is a lot cheaper than 5 bonus actions, and it's a pre-buff so range doesn't matter), more precision (+2.5 on two rolls is generally better than +4.5 on one), and can use it offensively by default (bard needs a subclass feature for that). And the bard is a dedicated buffing class, while the Hexblade always had very specifically selfish, loner fluff.

Which you might as well keep, WRT the auras; you say you'd prefer it to be less selfish, but why? Looking at the martials, you've got paladin auras, two potential features out of nine in one barbarian subclass, two utterly terrible battlemaster maneuvers (out of a couple dozen potential features of one subclass), and that's it. Nothing in rogue, nothing in monk, nothing in ranger, nothing in 3/5 barb/fighter subclasses. I don't see any real 5e design trend toward cooperation here, and it's a big departure from their original Hexblade concept. Making the features self-only instead of auras also helps make this class less of an "arcane paladin" and gives it more of its own identity (the Fortune mechanic also does this quite well, lest you think I'm totally critical of it).


Hexblade’s Compensation
By 11th level, you can turn misfortune into your advantage. Whenever you take the Attack action on your turn and miss with a weapon attack, you can make one additional weapon attack with that same weapon before the end of your turn.

I like this, with the caveat that it should be capped at 1 per turn, or at least 1 per weapon (I don't know how well two-weapon fighting would work out for a hexblade due to wanting an arcane focus, but it never hurts to help out a marginalized style nonetheless).

[Ivellius]

Do remember that most things are pretty bad compared to bless/bane. Bless is the single best 1st-level spell in the game and a better use of your 2nd-level slots than a number of 2nd-level spells as well. A better comparison is the bard, who gets to give out a max of 5 d8s of Inspiration per short rest, one at a time as a bonus action. Over the course of an average 2-rest full day, that's similar (10d8/20d4), but the Hexblade has a better delivery system (1 action is a lot cheaper than 5 bonus actions, and it's a pre-buff so range doesn't matter), more precision (+2.5 on two rolls is generally better than +4.5 on one), and can use it offensively by default (bard needs a subclass feature for that). And the bard is a dedicated buffing class, while the Hexblade always had very specifically selfish, loner fluff.

Yeah, but this was someone comparing it to bless / bane. Which it doesn't, really at all.

Range matters when they last for only 1 minute (1/10th the time of the Bard's) and / or if you're trying to use it against enemies. It's perhaps too strong to use on opponents, but Bardic Inspiration Dice also scale effectively (up to a d12 at 15th level, which is admittedly high). I'd question whether a bonus action is particularly expensive, as well--there are occasionally things you can do with them, but you'll always have things you'll want to do with your action.


Which you might as well keep, WRT the auras; you say you'd prefer it to be less selfish, but why? Looking at the martials, you've got paladin auras, two potential features out of nine in one barbarian subclass, two utterly terrible battlemaster maneuvers (out of a couple dozen potential features of one subclass), and that's it. Nothing in rogue, nothing in monk, nothing in ranger, nothing in 3/5 barb/fighter subclasses. I don't see any real 5e design trend toward cooperation here, and it's a big departure from their original Hexblade concept. Making the features self-only instead of auras also helps make this class less of an "arcane paladin" and gives it more of its own identity (the Fortune mechanic also does this quite well, lest you think I'm totally critical of it).

I was thinking more along the lines of spellcasting characters--Bards, Clerics, Paladins, and several Wizard schools (Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Evocation, and Transmutation) have class features of which allies can also make use / benefit from, which was not so much true of 3e. I don't see "magically curse people around you" as too much of a stretch to reverse to " magically help people around you."

In short, I think it's reasonably distinct as it is without requiring "be more selfish" as part of its identity, and theoretically it's within the "power budget" (as compared to the Paladin). I mean, it's not necessarily bad if it is selfish, but I would think as a magic user it should be able to help allies as much as it harms enemies. Fortune Dice were also a way to do that. Were I to replace the auras, I'd probably still have some sort of supportive buff that was dependent on offensive actions.


I like this, with the caveat that it should be capped at 1 per turn, or at least 1 per weapon (I don't know how well two-weapon fighting would work out for a hexblade due to wanting an arcane focus, but it never hurts to help out a marginalized style nonetheless).

Oh, yes, that should be put into the language. I knew there was something missing when I typed that out, but it didn't really hit me what it was. It's not meant to be unlimited use.