Planar Ally seems ... powerful

[Spore]

Planar Ally seems both powerful, expensive, cheap, very fickle and prone to DM fiat. This spell is very weird to me. I know that most sensible DMs won't get you a Solar to destroy a goblin den but consider this:

If your group is tasked to cleanse an ancient guardian of demon corruption (and failure means an entire country falling to destruction, with several hundred thousand souls falling into damnation of the Abyss) you could actually convincingly get a Planetar for the something around 2-3.000 GP (which is honestly just a token of friendship for a task this huge). This feels both appropriate and insanely too powerful for a 6th level spell with an added cost of practically nothing. Most summoning spells have a very low CR ceiling as well as the problem that you need concentration.

If you go by Celestials a Deva might suffice if it weren't for the fact that it can be massacred by the upcoming encounter in one turn. It will ultimatively depend on the DM at hand but what are your options? I havent got the MM so you could know more appropriate monsters. The cleric in question is an 11th level cleric of the N egyptian themed god of sun (Ra).

[gullveig]

As the spells says, he planar ally is not obligated to follow the summoners orders. So he/she might refuse to do a suicidal or useless task.

He/she also request others things that is not gold. It can be things like demands a quest to be done, a bloody sacrifice or the construction of a shrine.

Another thing to consider is that because the creature acts in his on ways, the planar being might want do the task in his on ways. Some examples are they can purge the evil by destroying the entire city a la Sodom and Gomorrah or by the opposite way trying to convert the evil beings to the path of goodness.

If you want a "planar slave", look to the next spell... Planar Bind. But I assure you that no one is happy when spellbound.

[Mr.Moron]

The payments are simply a rule of thumb. I'd probably just have entities more often ask for favors or promises than real money.

[MaxWilson]

If your group is tasked to cleanse an ancient guardian of demon corruption (and failure means an entire country falling to destruction, with several hundred thousand souls falling into damnation of the Abyss) you could actually convincingly get a Planetar for the something around 2-3.000 GP (which is honestly just a token of friendship for a task this huge). This feels both appropriate and insanely too powerful for a 6th level spell with an added cost of practically nothing. Most summoning spells have a very low CR ceiling as well as the problem that you need concentration.

If you go by Celestials a Deva might suffice if it weren't for the fact that it can be massacred by the upcoming encounter in one turn.

If your ancient guardian demon of corruption that is threatening the entire country is so weak that a single CR 16 200 HP Planetar can beat it (note that Devas and Planetars are pretty close to the same level of durability, 133 HP vs 200 and AC 17 vs 19), then one of two things happened: either the Planetar beat it with party support (which means the Deva probably would have done pretty well too), or the Planetar beat it alone (which means it was a pretty weak ancient guardian demon of country-destroying evil).

If the Planetar beat it with party support, it's no different from them summoning up and Planar Binding two or three Air or Fire Elementals for the same price--270 HP and +8 for 84 HP damage per round vs 200 HP and +12 for 86 HP of damage per round. That means your problem isn't really specific to Planar Ally, it's about summong spells in general. If you have a problem with that result you could either decrease the amount of treasure you give out to the point where 3000 gold is actually a big hit, or you could revamp summoning spells in your campaign (including things like Glyph of Warding), or just ramp up the threat level to something where that level of support is expected in order to triumph.

BTW, remember that Planar Ally explicitly gives the creature a share of the XP, unlike Planar Binding or other summoning spells. If you really want to disincentivize summoning spells, just say that all summoned creatures get a share of the XP, and so do animated skeletons. Watching 30% to 80% of the XP vanish into nothingness will make certain players cry, and they won't use summoning spells except in dire emergencies.

If the Planetar beat it alone, I would say that it was in inappropriate threat in the first place. A Marilith and two Mezzoloth mercenaries would probably beat a Planetar, and it's hard to imagine them as an ancient guardian country-destroying demon. Frankly I don't much like the idea of bossfights in the first place though so take my skepticism with a grain of salt. (If I were using an ancient evil, it would be about on par with a vanilla ancient red dragon or Orcus, but with a hidden weakness like a hidden life, or a "I cannot be slain by day or by night" shtick that makes him vulnerable at twilight or in dim light--something where the players have to exploit the weakness on the exploration or interaction tiers in order to make the threat survivable on the combat tiers. Or if they don't like complex plans, they can just kamikaze, attack normally and hope for the best. Which will just make the monster even more frightening for the next group of PCs after it massacres them.)

[Shining Wrath]

"Outsiders", to use the 3.5 vernacular, are a lot more interested in your soul than your loot. The price ought to be favors or quests or other deeds which advance the interests of whoever the Outsider works for, not filthy lucre (unless the Outsider in question is one that really values that stuff).

Pull a Planetar from a CG deity to save the kingdom, and the price may well be doing something that weakens the authority of the king in the long run in order to save his people in the near term. It's a wonderful way to bring politics or other plot twists into your game.

As to the power of a Planetar or a Deva, yes, those are not the sorts of creatures that typically take out high level boss encounters solo. A Solar, OTOH, is a pretty serious threat to pretty much anything.

I think the MM is underpopulated for certain creature types, such as Celestials and Fey. Look for MM2 to supply some more (I hope), allowing the DM more granularity in responding to spells of this sort.

[VoxRationis]

"Outsiders", to use the 3.5 vernacular, are a lot more interested in your soul than your loot. The price ought to be favors or quests or other deeds which advance the interests of whoever the Outsider works for, not filthy lucre (unless the Outsider in question is one that really values that stuff).

I agree. I am sometimes perplexed, however, as to why they demand even that much. Oftentimes, the purpose to which the outsider is put is one to which it should jump immediately, by its very nature. A true paragon of Good and Law shouldn't require quid pro quo before it goes about saving innocents and battling evil. Conversely, if I summon a demon to slay said innocents and it asks for a favor or money first, I'd call its bluff: "Please, your name is Axorcor the Pillager and Defiler. You don't need an incentive to do this."

[Spore]

If your ancient guardian demon of corruption that is threatening the entire country is so weak that a single CR 16 200 HP Planetar can beat it (note that Devas and Planetars are pretty close to the same level of durability, 133 HP vs 200 and AC 17 vs 19), then one of two things happened: either the Planetar beat it with party support (which means the Deva probably would have done pretty well too), or the Planetar beat it alone (which means it was a pretty weak ancient guardian demon of country-destroying evil).

The only thing a demon can do in this specific setting is corrupt an inhabitant of the prime material in order to slowly creep its way onto said plane. Problem 1 is that this is some homebrew demon green dragon monster....thing. Problem 2 is that the Fey King doesn't want the dragon to be corrupted but also doesn't want it dead (so he could attack as well if we botch the "talk").

It's the last fight before our group gets transferred over from Pathfinder to D&D 5 so I used it for a theoretical usage of Planar Ally.

[Slipperychicken]

Planar Ally seems both powerful, expensive, cheap, very fickle and prone to DM fiat. This spell is very weird to me. I know that most sensible DMs won't get you a Solar to destroy a goblin den but consider this:

If your group is tasked to cleanse an ancient guardian of demon corruption (and failure means an entire country falling to destruction, with several hundred thousand souls falling into damnation of the Abyss) you could actually convincingly get a Planetar for the something around 2-3.000 GP (which is honestly just a token of friendship for a task this huge). This feels both appropriate and insanely too powerful for a 6th level spell with an added cost of practically nothing. Most summoning spells have a very low CR ceiling as well as the problem that you need concentration.

Where are you getting this figure? Are you assuming that the entire adventure will take three hours and isn't especially dangerous? If the DM feels like the suggested price isn't appropriate, he can change it to whatever he wants.


Also, some mitigating factors:

The creature gets a share of the XP (noted at the end of Planar Ally)
Especially dangerous tasks might require a greater gift. (in Planar Ally)
When an angel is sent to aid mortals, it is sent not to serve but to command (MM 15)
If payment is required, the DM may adjust it as desired (also in the spell)
The player does not choose what being is summoned; the god does (implied by the spell)


It is quite possible for the god to decide that the service of a Planetar isn't required, and that a lesser entity will suffice given the party's capabilities. Also, an angel might require the caster to pay a tithe that it deems appropriate (that could mean 10% of their worldly goods, quests to be performed on the god's behalf, or just a large portion of the loot; A Planetar knows when the party is trying to cheap out). An angel might even decide that it will not accept subordination to a mortal and refuse outright unless it personally leads the operation.

[Starsinger]

I agree. I am sometimes perplexed, however, as to why they demand even that much. Oftentimes, the purpose to which the outsider is put is one to which it should jump immediately, by its very nature. A true paragon of Good and Law shouldn't require quid pro quo before it goes about saving innocents and battling evil. Conversely, if I summon a demon to slay said innocents and it asks for a favor or money first, I'd call its bluff: "Please, your name is Axorcor the Pillager and Defiler. You don't need an incentive to do this."

Because then mortals get it in their heads that they can just summon the hosts of the heavens or hordes of the abyss to do their bidding whenever they want. It isn't specifically about, "I'm going to ask money to do this thing I should want to do." It's more putting a price tag on calling for that kind of aid.

But also, if the paragon of Good and Law wanted to save those innocents and battle that evil, it would have done so of its own volition in the first place.

[Tanarii]

IIRC, Level 11-16 you can expect to find about 5000 gp per level. You're using 1/2 a level's worth of gold to cast one (powerful) spell for one task.

That sounds balanced to me.