Binder: Am I missing something?

[heavyfuel]

I was really interested in playing a Binder in a low-level campaign. After all, Tier 3 is my favourite tier, so why not?

Each vestige looked more awesome than the other, and I was really excited, until I realised I can only have 1 vestige at a time until I reach level 8. EIGHT! What were they thinking? This completely breaks the class.

As I understand it, now I can do this really cool thing once per combat (since they rarely last more than 5 rounds) and then I suck and become completely useless until it's over. Sure, I have some cool out of combat abilities, but I don't think they'll be of much use in this campaign.

So I ask: Am I missing something? I know Zceryll is awesome and all, but you don't have access to it until lv 12, and I don't think the campaign will go that long.

Edit: Even the Rapid Recovery feat, which would be a saving grace, only applies to a single vestige, and it has a rather useless feat as prerequisite.

TLDR: Low-level Binders suck after they use their 1/combat abilities. Need help.

[Pluto!]

Levels 5-7 are rough.

That said, most of the vestiges give something beside a supernatural offensive ability, and you can usually spend low levels as a combatant with an extra trick per fight. It's not great, but some of the abilities are relatively strong, and it can get the job done.

[Snowbluff]

I usually multiclass out as soon as possible in my builds, or take no levels at all for Anima Mages.

[heavyfuel]

Levels 5-7 are rough.

That said, most of the vestiges give something beside a supernatural offensive ability, and you can usually spend low levels as a combatant with an extra trick per fight. It's not great, but some of the abilities are relatively strong, and it can get the job done.

Meanwhile, a Fighter can be thrice as useful as I am since the campaign will involve little interaction outside combat.


I usually multiclass out as soon as possible in my builds, or take no levels at all for Anima Mages.

Like I said, it's low level (2). I can't even get to anima mage until level 6, which means a few months of complete un-fun for me.

[jedipilot24]

Go to the Binder Handbooks; one of them has a field report from someone who played a low-level Binder. Built properly they don't suck during cool-down; Rapid Recovery is actually considered to be pretty meh.

[mabriss lethe]

Binders are a little thin early on, but still solid. You just have to know your tactics and be ready to switch up. At first level, without even taking Improved Binding, you can be one of the more effective melee fighters with aym. A damage dealing aura that also grants you at will touch attacks and the ability to move unimpeded by armor are huge when you start out. Yes, it quickly becomes obsolete, and you'll need to change tactics once Malphas/Savnok, and later Paimon and Focalor come online, but there will always be some niche you can fill effectively even before you get your 2nd vestige.

[avr]

If your character is a semi-competent combatant many vestiges have a passive power which bumps them up to a useful level of competency, & the pact augmentation ability you just got at 2nd level is a patch which gives you effectively full BAB.

In other words you're a martial character with a 1/encounter trick which you can change 1/day (2/day with expel vestige) rather than a cleric or a wizard, and your ability scores, equipment and most of your feats should reflect this. Unless perhaps you're using binder 1/wizard 3 to enter anima mage, which it sounds like you're not.

[Fizban]

Yup, as cool as it sounds on paper, Binders kinda suck. You could try focusing your feats on extra options, though even then you'll usually need a level in even a dip friendly class to get it working. Incarnum is excellent at low-mid levels and can do the same 1 level+1 feat dance most do: Incarnate using Dissolving Spittle is a reliable 2d6 ranged touch, or Lightning Gauntlets for the same at melee touch, Totemist won't have any attacks until level 2 unless you use Claws of the Wyrm from Dragon Magic (which required dragonblood because yay rewriting fluff). Or you could just be a Servant Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362608), but your DM might have a heart attack (yes, it looks totally OP on paper, build one [with standard point buy even] and you'll see it's not).

[heavyfuel]

Go to the Binder Handbooks; one of them has a field report from someone who played a low-level Binder. Built properly they don't suck during cool-down; Rapid Recovery is actually considered to be pretty meh.

I've read it, but didn't catch the low-level guide. Will check it out.

The reason it's pretty meh is because it only applies to your favored vestige. If it applied to all, it would be decent, but hardly a must.


Binders are a little thin early on, but still solid. You just have to know your tactics and be ready to switch up. At first level, without even taking Improved Binding, you can be one of the more effective melee fighters with aym. A damage dealing aura that also grants you at will touch attacks and the ability to move unimpeded by armor are huge when you start out. Yes, it quickly becomes obsolete, and you'll need to change tactics once Malphas/Savnok, and later Paimon and Focalor come online, but there will always be some niche you can fill effectively even before you get your 2nd vestige.

How solid? Aym's touch attacks deal 1d6 damage. That's pretty bad even at level 1 when there's little difference between AC and Touch AC (compared to a Fighter dealing 2d6+1.5 Str). She also doesn't give you heavy armor proficiencies, so you're not that better off.


If your character is a semi-competent combatant many vestiges have a passive power which bumps them up to a useful level of competency, & the pact augmentation ability you just got at 2nd level is a patch which gives you effectively full BAB.

In other words you're a martial character with a 1/encounter trick which you can change 1/day (2/day with expel vestige) rather than a cleric or a wizard, and your ability scores, equipment and most of your feats should reflect this. Unless perhaps you're using binder 1/wizard 3 to enter anima mage, which it sounds like you're not.

Again, how useful? Remember that we're talking about a class that's - supposedly - as useful as a Duskblade or any ToB classes.


Yup, as cool as it sounds on paper, Binders kinda suck. You could try focusing your feats on extra options, though even then you'll usually need a level in even a dip friendly class to get it working. Incarnum is excellent at low-mid levels and can do the same 1 level+1 feat dance most do: Incarnate using Dissolving Spittle is a reliable 2d6 ranged touch, or Lightning Gauntlets for the same at melee touch, Totemist won't have any attacks until level 2 unless you use Claws of the Wyrm from Dragon Magic (which required dragonblood because yay rewriting fluff). Or you could just be a Servant Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?362608), but your DM might have a heart attack (yes, it looks totally OP on paper, build one [with standard point buy even] and you'll see it's not).

Seems like it's the harsh truth.

He won't have a heart attack because he won't even bat an eye at a homebrew.

[avr]

Again, how useful? Remember that we're talking about a class that's - supposedly - as useful as a Duskblade or any ToB classes.
In a pure combat game no, it's not. Duskblades and most ToB can't do a lot outside combat, binders can, which is a tradeoff which puts them in a different & less specialised part of tier 3.

They can contribute though. Exactly how depends on what your character is. An elven binder takes Point blank shot, binds Leraje for +1 attack and pseudo-rapid shot and is as competent an archer as a fighter at your current level. A human might get improved binding and power attack (edit: or combat reflexes), bind Dahlver-Nar and start on the path of the tank.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Like I said, it's low level (2). I can't even get to anima mage until level 6, which means a few months of complete un-fun for me.

4, 3 if you don't mind risking a debate. Wizard 3/Binder 1 with Improved Binding gets in. Wizard 3 can do it with Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. Whether or not Anima Mage progresses binding without Binder levels is a matter of some debate; It falls firmly into "ask your DM" territory but can let you in super early.

[Snowbluff]

4, 3 if you don't mind risking a debate. Wizard 3/Binder 1 with Improved Binding gets in. Wizard 3 can do it with Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. Whether or not Anima Mage progresses binding without Binder levels is a matter of some debate; It falls firmly into "ask your DM" territory but can let you in super early.

1, if you don't mind. :smalltongue:

[The Viscount]

To say that binder doesn't stack up against duskblade or the initators just because its offensive power is reduced while it waits for the 5 round recharge is an exaggeration at best. Yes, it is a pain to wait 5 rounds for abilities to recharge. No, you won't realistically be able to use it twice in an encounter. So don't focus on that. Binder is rated tier 3 because, like all classes, they look at overall utility and ability to solve problems. Duskblade and the initiators can really only solve one type of problem: there is a thing opposing me that I need to be dead or not there anymore. They have some proficiency at other tasks, but lack things like meaningful flight (duskblade does have swift fly, but 1 round is more like a teleport than a movement speed, and swordsage doesn't get balance on the air until very late). I might be somewhat biased, since I'm of the opinion that warblade and crusader sit at the boundary between 3 and 4. Binder is in tier 3 because it has the ability to do many things, just one or two at a time. Rating it is a bit difficult because the bulk of its "class features" are contained in the vestiges, which can change completely in a day.

Aym's use lies in the fact that at low levels nobody has much in the way of hp, so 1d6 when you get hit and 1d6 when you attack your enemy is enough to end a first level encounter. AC and touch AC at low levels are quite different, everyone can afford some armor, and that few points is the difference between hitting and missing at low levels because everyone's BA is low. Touch AC also bypasses natural armor, which is where most monsters get the bulk of their AC.
Staying useful as a binder at low levels is a matter of selecting vestiges that will keep you useful for several rounds. Improved Binding is of the utmost importance as a Binder, because earlier access addresses many concerns. I'm playing a low level campaign right now, and I began with 3 levels of binder. I kept pace with the factotum, duskblade, swordsage, and optimized incarnate in our party. Karsus is powerful if you have any money for wands. Ronove makes you a slightly better monk than monk early on. If you're doing heavy combat all the time, my MVP for it is Focalor. Due to them basing his ability on call lightning he can call down a bolt every round, so if you just want to hammer away at things to outshine the fighter, bind him.

[Albions_Angel]

Weird, my relatively low level group just said no to adding tome of magic, not because of the other stuff, but because Binder, the class I wanted to play, is "far too overpowered". I mean its a slightly more complex, slightly worse (in combat) dragonfire adept. Its a warlock with a time delay. Its a badly built wizard. But fire breath and ramming speed at level 1 was too much for them apparently.

I think pure binders, or binder/knight of the sacred seal are great for parties that are mid tier players. Especially if you want a bit of flavour. They become much better with expel vestige, because if something happens during the day you weren't expecting, you can swap out.

Most low level combat-based vestiges have a couple of active abilities too. Charge in, butting with your ram horns in turn 1, breath fire turn 2. If the combat at low levels actually goes beyond turn 2, chances are it will evolve into some sort of running combat (you trying to escape or them trying to escape, or some long ranged battle) at which point everyone is either on a level playing field (archery at low levels is just flat damage dice unless you are a scout, or there is some other caveat) or it progresses to turn 5, when your charge comes back online, and gives you a nice lead into turn 6 when you can breath again.

Seriously, how often does level 1-7 combat take more than 3 rounds? And unless you have a warlock, chances are even your casters wont be doing much at that low level, because "its the first encounter of the day, I need to save my spells".

[heavyfuel]

In a pure combat game no, it's not. Duskblades and most ToB can't do a lot outside combat, binders can, which is a tradeoff which puts them in a different & less specialised part of tier 3.

They can contribute though. Exactly how depends on what your character is. An elven binder takes Point blank shot, binds Leraje for +1 attack and pseudo-rapid shot and is as competent an archer as a fighter at your current level. A human might get improved binding and power attack (edit: or combat reflexes), bind Dahlver-Nar and start on the path of the tank.

You're probably not as strong as a Fighter because you have a d8 and likely focused on Cha.


To say that binder doesn't stack up against duskblade or the initators just because its offensive power is reduced while it waits for the 5 round recharge is an exaggeration at best. Yes, it is a pain to wait 5 rounds for abilities to recharge. No, you won't realistically be able to use it twice in an encounter. So don't focus on that. Binder is rated tier 3 because, like all classes, they look at overall utility and ability to solve problems. Duskblade and the initiators can really only solve one type of problem: there is a thing opposing me that I need to be dead or not there anymore. They have some proficiency at other tasks, but lack things like meaningful flight (duskblade does have swift fly, but 1 round is more like a teleport than a movement speed, and swordsage doesn't get balance on the air until very late). I might be somewhat biased, since I'm of the opinion that warblade and crusader sit at the boundary between 3 and 4. Binder is in tier 3 because it has the ability to do many things, just one or two at a time. Rating it is a bit difficult because the bulk of its "class features" are contained in the vestiges, which can change completely in a day.

Aym's use lies in the fact that at low levels nobody has much in the way of hp, so 1d6 when you get hit and 1d6 when you attack your enemy is enough to end a first level encounter. AC and touch AC at low levels are quite different, everyone can afford some armor, and that few points is the difference between hitting and missing at low levels because everyone's BA is low. Touch AC also bypasses natural armor, which is where most monsters get the bulk of their AC.
Staying useful as a binder at low levels is a matter of selecting vestiges that will keep you useful for several rounds. Improved Binding is of the utmost importance as a Binder, because earlier access addresses many concerns. I'm playing a low level campaign right now, and I began with 3 levels of binder. I kept pace with the factotum, duskblade, swordsage, and optimized incarnate in our party. Karsus is powerful if you have any money for wands. Ronove makes you a slightly better monk than monk early on. If you're doing heavy combat all the time, my MVP for it is Focalor. Due to them basing his ability on call lightning he can call down a bolt every round, so if you just want to hammer away at things to outshine the fighter, bind him.

The duskblade can do so much more. Short range teleports are great problem solvers, and - if allowed - Extra Spell can give them decent utility.

Focalor seems pretty good, if a bit boring. Just gotta hope the enemy spellcasters don't prepare Resist Energy or that you don't face creatures with Electricity resistance.

I suppose my major issue with the Binder is that their versatility makes them extremely useless outside of what they prepared for. A Wizard with 2 or 3 spells tailored for something is still a Wizard. A Duskblade/ToB class can still do all their tricks regardless. Meanwhile, a Binder without the proper Vestige for the ocasion is probably as useful as a a Warrior.


Weird, my relatively low level group just said no to adding tome of magic, not because of the other stuff, but because Binder, the class I wanted to play, is "far too overpowered". I mean its a slightly more complex, slightly worse (in combat) dragonfire adept. Its a warlock with a time delay. Its a badly built wizard. But fire breath and ramming speed at level 1 was too much for them apparently.

I think pure binders, or binder/knight of the sacred seal are great for parties that are mid tier players. Especially if you want a bit of flavour. They become much better with expel vestige, because if something happens during the day you weren't expecting, you can swap out.

Most low level combat-based vestiges have a couple of active abilities too. Charge in, butting with your ram horns in turn 1, breath fire turn 2. If the combat at low levels actually goes beyond turn 2, chances are it will evolve into some sort of running combat (you trying to escape or them trying to escape, or some long ranged battle) at which point everyone is either on a level playing field (archery at low levels is just flat damage dice unless you are a scout, or there is some other caveat) or it progresses to turn 5, when your charge comes back online, and gives you a nice lead into turn 6 when you can breath again.

Seriously, how often does level 1-7 combat take more than 3 rounds? And unless you have a warlock, chances are even your casters wont be doing much at that low level, because "its the first encounter of the day, I need to save my spells".

In a campaign without such a focus on combat, Binders are probably really decent. But as they stand in this campaign, they seem less than useful.

[Marlowe]

I'm playing one of those Binder/KotSS dedicated to Paimon with the Shadowblade feat and I'm finding it a LOT of fun. I admit we started at a fairly decent level and I can't atest to what it would have been like at low levels before that build came together, but I'd love to try.

I think a lot of these comments seem to assume that a Binder's some sort of poor man's spellcaster and comment on it's weaknesses there. In reality, Binders in play resemble more one of those "do a bit of everything" classes like Rogue or Factotum, just with a particularly unusual power source that misleads people as to their role. Throwing those 1/5 round Supernaturals is only one thing a Binder can do and often not even the best use of a Binder's actions.

In some respects the Binder is the mirror image of a Warlock. A Warlock, famously, can do its thing with whatever stats it has. A Binder, in contrast, can try almost anything but what it is actually good at and what you should build towards depends a lot upon your starting statline.

A high-Str Binder can be built into a good melee fighter, a high Dex Binder can be built into an excellent Swashbuckler analog. A high Charisma Binder makes a nice face. And I'm missing...lots of possibilites.

In all these roles, you might be a little behind the specialists in those areas, but you have the option of completely changing your powerset with 24 hours warning or, with a feat, a few minutes warning. The Warblade? The Duskblade? The Rogue? The Bard? They're stuck in those roles. Even the Bard, the most versatile of the lot, will generally be built to shine in one or two areas.

Don't assume you need a heavy focus on Charisma, because you do not. Charisma largely affects the saving throws for your SUs (usually, just one of your tricks, and not the most important one), and the frequency with which you get a bad pact. A Bad pact doesn't mean your powers don't work. It means you now have the excuse to be an enormous ham.

I agree that having to wait until level 8 until you get your second vestige is a pain. I think they just ripped the Inspire Courage progression from the Bard (which is also considered a little harsh) and copied it in without thinking.

There seems to be a habit on these boards of comparing a lower-Tier class to a tier-1, by definition a ludicrously powerful class, and writing the former off as rubbish because it's not as powerful as the class known to be overpowered. Not sure what the logic is there. People complain about classes being overpowered and then complain that other classes aren't. Oh well. People are funny.

Anyway; don't go near Rapid Recovery. The vital Binder feat is Improved Binding. Next on the list is Expel Vestige and maybe Ignore Special Requirement. Remember that Binder levels 15-19 don't honestly give you much assuming you have Improved Binding, so if you're not going for the capstone at 20 (good luck the game lasting that long) feel free to dip.

[Snowbluff]

"Binder!"
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/2a/Warlock_Matt-Cavotta.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140912011106
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/rpg/images/4/47/Binder.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150121050229&path-prefix=ru
"Warlock!"
*fusion dance*
http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b630/Snowbluff/Screen%20Shot%202015-12-01%20at%208.10.39%20PM_zpssihc6dbn.png

"Anima Mage, you're a fusion?!"

[avr]

You're probably not as strong as a Fighter because you have a d8 and likely focused on Cha.
As a binder you need Cha like a ranger needs Wis. You don't dump it, but 12 is fine. And while you have 1 hp/level less than a fighter, you also have a good Will save as well as good Fort.

I suppose my major issue with the Binder is that their versatility makes them extremely useless outside of what they prepared for. A Wizard with 2 or 3 spells tailored for something is still a Wizard. A Duskblade/ToB class can still do all their tricks regardless. Meanwhile, a Binder without the proper Vestige for the ocasion is probably as useful as a a Warrior.
If you've picked totally the wrong vestige - Leraje when you're going to the Royal Ball, Savnok when you're going swimming - you are screwed, yes, and more so than with a relatively forgiving class. Usually there's some use out of the vestige so try not to make mistakes that bad.

In a campaign without such a focus on combat, Binders are probably really decent. But as they stand in this campaign, they seem less than useful.
Yeah, binders want some non-combat situations to shine.

[ImperatorV]

1, if you don't mind. :smalltongue:

Oh wow, you can do that. I guess they don't call you the avatar of PC-dom for nothing.

[Mnemnosyne]

Levels 1-7 do feel pretty weak as a binder to me, but there are still good vestiges to use consistently. At level 1, Naberius, Dahlver-Nar, and Malphas are good picks (Dahlver-Nar is best if you have a high constitution and plenty of healing available). Aym can also be good - at level 1, a lot of enemies are dependent on their weapons and just as important, those weapons are unlikely to be magical, so you can probably sunder with abandon. Any magical weapons will probably be described by the DM in detail so you can avoid sundering those. At 3rd level Focalor is great with your free lightning strike every round, plus you position yourself to affect enemies but not allies with aura of sadness and it works out well. And Paimon comes in, if you're doing the melee binder route.

5th level is where you start to feel a little weaker, probably. Melee classes are pulling ahead, and caster classes are getting access to some of their most kick-ass spells. The vestiges you get feel more questionable, too. Tenebrous is probably the coolest at this level, but it lacks offensive ability. At this point, you have to hope you can prepare Tenebrous on a day when you're likely to encounter some undead of the right level to rebuke into service. Borrow some turning gear from your party cleric, if you have one, and he has some. But you're still basically stuck with older vestiges for damage or offensive skills. Malphas remains a very commonly bound vestige just for the amazing scouting ability, which leaves you feeling increasingly underpowered in direct combat. Make maximum use of your utility to remain useful and help the party avoid problems, set up ambushes, scout, and so on.

7th level is...just the worst. First off, wtf, no new vestiges!? Yep, you don't get 5th level vestiges until 8th level. And to add to that, hey, the wizards just got spells like solid fog, evard's black tentacles, enervation, polymorph, and countless others that are not only staples of their classes, but spells that still get used at the highest levels because they're still so useful at that point. You get...+1 BAB at this level, which still hasn't gotten you your second attack/round when making a full attack, either. Whee.

So, 8th level is gonna be good to make up for it? Yay, you DO finally get to bind two vestiges at once. Thank the stars. Now you can finally combo some stuff. Basically you'll probably still be binding Malphas a lot for the scouting, but you can also do other things! Also, the vestiges at this level are decent. Acererak's detect and hide from undead are great, and you get healed by both positive and negative energy, and paralyzing touch is also cool. Dantalion is pretty decent (that +8 to all knowledge checks is awesome, just make sure you have a little bit in every knowledge skill so you can make them cause it doesn't apply to untrained - either that or combo him with Naberius). Geryon gives you a pretty good gaze attack - everyone in 30 feet in all directions, except those you specify as non-targets. Party-friendly, menaces enemies constantly. All-around vision lets you get into combat much easier by negating flanking bonuses, too. Match him up with Paimon if you're a melee binder and you've got a solid set of abilities, and a way to get away with swift flight if necessary.

Levels 1-7 are rough, but it's really just a matter of maximizing your strengths and figuring out how to fit in best. You can be more supportive during these levels, making extensive use of out of combat abilities such as Malphas's scouting with the bird and Naberius's take 10 on diplomacy and bluff as a free action. In a lot of ways, you're way more dependent on planning what to do the next day than a wizard. Although you can also delay binding anything until right when you encounter a situation, then do a quick binding - of course, there's a danger in being caught out with no vestige bound at all, then. And it offsets when you can bind the following day, also.

Since you mention a focus on combat, one way to work that is to seriously overuse Malphas's scouting. Figure out what's up ahead, wherever ahead is, with your scouting bird, and always plan for it. Use the bird to allow your party to set ambushes rather than the other way around! Know more about the enemy than they know about you. Heck, use the bird as a distraction - the thing is free and if it gets killed you can just summon another one. Bird swoops into enemy camp, grabs dinner off the fire and flies off. Some of the enemy chase after it, and that's when you and your party burst from the opposite side and attack. Or maybe the chasers follow the bird right into the waiting swords of an ambush. Also, the bird can provide free flanking. Be as clever as possible. And if you've got a psionic party member, abuse the hell out of Malphas's poison use in combination with their psionic minor creation. Dahlver-Nar, smartly used, makes you a really good 'tank'. Sure, you don't have as much AC or HP as a dedicated melee character with heavier armor, but use shield self on an enemy, and if they fail the will save, you take half damage, and the other half hurts the enemy. If you've got good healing in the party, that's a lot better than getting hit less, but getting hit for full.

[Fizban]

For a generalist class I wouldn't be comparing to a specialist, or a "generalist" class like Bard even. Factotum or Incarnum maybe, but notice how both of those let you do more than one thing at once. I can't really call anything versatile if it can only do one thing at a time. That's not versatile, that's just being able to change your specialization. Being versatile means having more than one option all the time. There's also the simple fact that with all the powers bundled into vestige sets that are limited by level, it's very possible you could run into an obstacle for which there simply is no particularly good vestige. Maybe next level you'd get the right vestige, but by the time you level up you won't need it anymore. That would also drive me nuts.

[Beheld]

4, 3 if you don't mind risking a debate. Wizard 3/Binder 1 with Improved Binding gets in. Wizard 3 can do it with Bind Vestige and Improved Bind Vestige. Whether or not Anima Mage progresses binding without Binder levels is a matter of some debate; It falls firmly into "ask your DM" territory but can let you in super early.

OP, in case you take this route, just know that you never ever take Improved Bind Vestige. If you are a Wizard 3 with Bind Vestige and Improved Binding you meet the pre-reqs, and then Improved Binding continues to actually be a useful feat for you going forward. (Bind Vestige is basically a burnt feat to qualify, but it is obviously worth it for 10 levels of anima mage with no binder levels).

[Talionis]

Seriously, find the level guide. What generally happens at each level there are more ideal vestiges for the level. Naberius can be used at multiple levels for healing or skills. The guide shows which combat style worked best for him. It also says to avoid some of the trap vestiges. Ronove tends to be a trap vestige at low levels, at really high levels he has some cool uses. I don't remember the whole guide, but there are good options, Paimon makes for very cool low level melee combat by itself.

As everyone is saying levels five thru seven are rougher, but when you are using the higher level vestiges you do get new toys at every other level. You will have real options that can be changed to suit your particular game and setting.

Binder isn't that great in an E6 campaign. It can make a wonderful dip, but in optimized E6, I would not run a Binder 6 myself. Binder gets better in E8 games, but less people play E8 games.

A one level Binder dip helps lots of builds and create interesting abilities. It opens up first and second level vestiges with a feat tax which usually is nothing in E6.

Some of Binder charm is the abilities it can get that other classes just can't mimic easily. If it's not for you it's not for you, but being able to play a different character each day is very appealing to many players and is versatility

[prufock]

At 1st level, you can bind up to 2nd level vestiges (because you are going to take Improved Binding, right?). The best thing about the binder is the versatility, not the brute force. With Expel Vestige, you can swap out a vestige once per day. Need to sneak and scout? Malphas. Need to tank? Savnok. Need a face? Naberius. Need ranged attacks? Leraje. Need to break stuff? Aym. Like charging? Amon. Need a weapon? Ronove.

[heavyfuel]

I think a lot of these comments seem to assume that a Binder's some sort of poor man's spellcaster and comment on it's weaknesses there. In reality, Binders in play resemble more one of those "do a bit of everything" classes like Rogue or Factotum, just with a particularly unusual power source that misleads people as to their role. Throwing those 1/5 round Supernaturals is only one thing a Binder can do and often not even the best use of a Binder's actions.

In some respects the Binder is the mirror image of a Warlock. A Warlock, famously, can do its thing with whatever stats it has. A Binder, in contrast, can try almost anything but what it is actually good at and what you should build towards depends a lot upon your starting statline.

[...]

There seems to be a habit on these boards of comparing a lower-Tier class to a tier-1, by definition a ludicrously powerful class, and writing the former off as rubbish because it's not as powerful as the class known to be overpowered. Not sure what the logic is there. People complain about classes being overpowered and then complain that other classes aren't. Oh well. People are funny.


Fizban pretty much answered you for me. I completely agree with his point of view, and think that the Bard or Factotum completely outclass the Binder unless you happen to have the right Vestige for the problem you're facing.

As for comparing them to T1s, I agree that I went overboard by comparing them to Wizards, but they still feel lacking when compared to other T3s that can also do their thing whenever, like the Factotum or the Swordsage, both of which have "per encounter" abilities.


As a binder you need Cha like a ranger needs Wis. You don't dump it, but 12 is fine. And while you have 1 hp/level less than a fighter, you also have a good Will save as well as good Fort.

If you've picked totally the wrong vestige - Leraje when you're going to the Royal Ball, Savnok when you're going swimming - you are screwed, yes, and more so than with a relatively forgiving class. Usually there's some use out of the vestige so try not to make mistakes that bad.

Yeah, binders want some non-combat situations to shine.

You don't see many Rangers throwing around save or x spells, but it seems like one of the best ways to get damage as a Binder is with Breaths, especially early-ish (lvs 3~5)

Yup. Again, the impossibility of always being prepared as you can only prepare one thing is the major turn off the Binder has for me.


Levels 1-7 do feel pretty weak as a binder to me, but there are still good vestiges to use consistently. At level 1, Naberius, Dahlver-Nar, and Malphas are good picks (Dahlver-Nar is best if you have a high constitution and plenty of healing available). Aym can also be good - at level 1, a lot of enemies are dependent on their weapons and just as important, those weapons are unlikely to be magical, so you can probably sunder with abandon. Any magical weapons will probably be described by the DM in detail so you can avoid sundering those. At 3rd level Focalor is great with your free lightning strike every round, plus you position yourself to affect enemies but not allies with aura of sadness and it works out well. And Paimon comes in, if you're doing the melee binder route.

[...]

So, 8th level is gonna be good to make up for it? Yay, you DO finally get to bind two vestiges at once. Thank the stars. [...]

In a longer lasting campaign, or one that starts at a higher level, I might give the Binder another shot, but as it stands, I won't suffer playing a sucky character for the next months.


[...] That would also drive me nuts.

Pretty much.


Seriously, find the level guide. What generally happens at each level there are more ideal vestiges for the level. Naberius can be used at multiple levels for healing or skills. The guide shows which combat style worked best for him. It also says to avoid some of the trap vestiges. Ronove tends to be a trap vestige at low levels, at really high levels he has some cool uses. I don't remember the whole guide, but there are good options, Paimon makes for very cool low level melee combat by itself.

As everyone is saying levels five thru seven are rougher, but when you are using the higher level vestiges you do get new toys at every other level. You will have real options that can be changed to suit your particular game and setting.

[...]

Some of Binder charm is the abilities it can get that other classes just can't mimic easily. If it's not for you it's not for you, but being able to play a different character each day is very appealing to many players and is versatility

I think I found it. Is it the one where he rolled the equivalent of 45 point buy? My ability scores are much more restricted than his... And he has the same issues I've been asking for help: "Oh, there are enemies, so I'll bound Aym" - then there are no enemies, and he's useless for the next 24hours. This useless bit really bothers me. Any T3 class can do at least some stuff all the time, but a poorly planed binding will make a bad meatstick.

I don't think this campaign will go further than lvs 5 or 6, so that means I'll end up the campaign in the worse level window there is.

Indeed, I don't think being able to play worse fighter one day, worse wizard the next, worse rogue the third is the class for me.


At 1st level, you can bind up to 2nd level vestiges (because you are going to take Improved Binding, right?). The best thing about the binder is the versatility, not the brute force. With Expel Vestige, you can swap out a vestige once per day. Need to sneak and scout? Malphas. Need to tank? Savnok. Need a face? Naberius. Need ranged attacks? Leraje. Need to break stuff? Aym. Like charging? Amon. Need a weapon? Ronove.

Problem is, you can only have one of these at a time, and only two of these in a day. Not great at all.

[heavyfuel]

Asking this here as it's hardly worth a new thread.

Is there any tier 2 or 3 class that also makes use of Su abilities like the Binder does? Just having Su abilities is not enough. I want a class that uses them all the time. (no Duskblades even though Arcane Chanelling is Su)

[NomGarret]

Shadowcaster comes to mind, though not strictly.

[Rebel7284]

Dragonfire Adept? You mostly use your SU breath weapon every turn. Although the Invocations are not SU.

Also, you can possibly use Supernatural Transformation feat to turn SLAs into SUs for any class. The cheesiest use for this is Supernatural Transformation [Psionics] (this is legal due to some sloppy wording equating psi-like abilities to regular psionic manifesting and then transparency rules allowing PLAs to to be treated like SLAs). However, there are many less cheesy things you can do, including the invocation things mentioned before. :)

[Waazraath]

Fizban pretty much answered you for me. I completely agree with his point of view, and think that the Bard or Factotum completely outclass the Binder unless you happen to have the right Vestige for the problem you're facing.

As for comparing them to T1s, I agree that I went overboard by comparing them to Wizards, but they still feel lacking when compared to other T3s that can also do their thing whenever, like the Factotum or the Swordsage, both of which have "per encounter" abilities.



You don't see many Rangers throwing around save or x spells, but it seems like one of the best ways to get damage as a Binder is with Breaths, especially early-ish (lvs 3~5)

Yup. Again, the impossibility of always being prepared as you can only prepare one thing is the major turn off the Binder has for me.



In a longer lasting campaign, or one that starts at a higher level, I might give the Binder another shot, but as it stands, I won't suffer playing a sucky character for the next months.



Pretty much.



I think I found it. Is it the one where he rolled the equivalent of 45 point buy? My ability scores are much more restricted than his... And he has the same issues I've been asking for help: "Oh, there are enemies, so I'll bound Aym" - then there are no enemies, and he's useless for the next 24hours. This useless bit really bothers me. Any T3 class can do at least some stuff all the time, but a poorly planed binding will make a bad meatstick.

I don't think this campaign will go further than lvs 5 or 6, so that means I'll end up the campaign in the worse level window there is.

Indeed, I don't think being able to play worse fighter one day, worse wizard the next, worse rogue the third is the class for me.



Problem is, you can only have one of these at a time, and only two of these in a day. Not great at all.

Seems you already made up your mind, so this might be in vain, but my advise would be to look again, because you miss out on a great class. I might look bad on first sight, but having played numbers and numbers of tier 3 (including bard, warblade, duskblade, swordsage and beguiler), binder never was a dissapointment. Nor was it in the campaigns where somebody else played it. Yes, if you pick a useless vestige, you suck. Just like a wizard sucks with only useless spells, or a barbarian with a 6 in his con score.

Lets look at a few vestiges:
- Amon: extra attack, at level 1. Where a swordsage need 2wf, and the warblade uses a maneuver to make two attacks, a binder can always do so. Including a powerful charge attack option. And a breathweapon. Mix with the dragonborn race, and the entangling breath, and you have more then enough options in every combat, recharge be damned.
- Dalver Nar: first use shield self, and then have DR/50%. That's huge, even if his other abilities are only so so, great tanking.
- Savnok: full plate and DR 1/piercing, at lvl 1. Not bad.
- Malphas: unlimited range scounting. Even without any other feature, this is gold, almost broken. Out of combat, there is no reason not to take this, and get information on, well, everything.
- Paimon: at level 3, a great number of attacks, especially with a reach weapon (longspear?), with both whirlwind attack and dance of death. Free +4 to dex! Uncanny dodge. This is a very good option.
- Tenebrous: combine with a devotion feat that recharges with a turn or rebuke attempt, and you have unlimtited uses.
- Andras: combine with an item of MiC that lets you heal with a smite attempt, and have unlimited healing.

These are all options before lvl 8, and all competative, at their level (or later). Just pick improved binding, think a bit about race / feat combo's, and you can go to town.

Picking binder will by no means you'll play a sucky character for the first 7 levels, and no, they won't be outclassed by bards or factotums at the low levels. Try and see.

[xyianth]

Binders are one of my favorite classes, and dealing with the fairly lackluster low levels is something all binders go through. Here are some ideas/recommendations that might help:

See if you can get The Green Lady (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2h3qh?The-Green-Lady#13) vestige added. It was made for pathfinder, but it works fine in 3.5 without modification. You can bind this at 1st level with improved binding. Select sleep, color spray, silent image, wall of smoke, or grease as your spell-like ability to basically win most encounters by yourself up to level 3 or so. (Do note that this is a spell-like ability, not a supernatural ability) Make sure to snag rebuke undead for free(ish) minions as well. Grab a few scrolls/wands to boost your casting repertoire as you level. Free identifies will make your team love you.
Naberius is so good that it is almost broken. The key is knowing how to use the abilities. Disguise self at-will is disgustingly powerful outside combat: infinite first impressions. It isn't a bad escape plan either, especially in urban environments. Skill mastery on diplomacy and no rushed penalty is great if diplomacy is even remotely useful in your game. Extra trained skills are also pretty awesome, use this to grab obscure knowledge skills and UMD. Command 1/5 rounds isn't a terrible ability either. Making a creature fall prone or flee from range has its uses. Faster ability healing is amazing, and easily exploitable. The ritual of dark flames turns this ability into a short ranged HDd6 negative energy touch attack. A mind leech symbiont turns this into at-will mind blast and psionic dominate. etc...
Leraje can be used without further investment to make yourself a competent archer. This can help you get past the first 2-3 levels even without improved binding.
Aym is more potent than it first appears. Don't focus on the sundering stuff. Reactive fire damage, medium armor + dwarven step, and an energy based melee touch attack will make you very effective in melee at 1st level. The ability to do double damage to objects is good for breaking locks/doors down too. Like Leraje, this vestige can get you past the first 2-3 levels fairly easily.
Malphas makes you a better scout than the party rogue. You can avoid a lot of fights by skillful use of your bird, which has no range limit. Poisons are fairly effective at low levels as well.
Dahlver-Nar makes for an interesting tank build, especially when combined with the insane defiance feat. For a useful shield self target, grab the shape soulmeld(soulspark) feat. You can just reshape the soulspark if it dies. (Azurins can take both improved binding and shape soulmeld at 1st level and give the soulspark fast healing 2 with their racial essentia point) Just make sure you don't daze your teammates with your AoE daze effect.
Focalor gets a lot of attention, but for the wrong reasons. The lightning blast is nice, but it deals pathetic damage. Its main benefit is that it is at-will, supernatural, and requires no attack roll. You can hide behind a tower shield in heavy armor and not care about lack of proficiency. Focalor's main use, outside aquatic campaigns where water breathing is priceless, is the aura of sadness. At low levels, -2 to saves is extremely useful and your teammates will love you for it. Blinding breath isn't worth the ink used to type it up, if you are an anima mage exploit it away.
Paimon is the best level 3 vestige, but honestly that isn't saying much. If you have access to spells like chill touch, storm touch, etc..., dance of death combos extremely well with them. Otherwise, you will need to build around this vestige to make it worthwhile. Tripping builds are a good way to make this vestige useful.
Buer is not the vestige you use to heal. Buy a shield of mercy and use Andras. Same level, better healing, useful side benefits.
Astaroth(Cityscape) can get you a crafting feat for downtime. Buy scrolls or hire a caster to provide any needed spells.

Once you reach 8th level and can bind two vestiges, the binder truly starts to shine. Until then, it is all about making good use of your strengths and day-to-day versatility.

[Anlashok]

Why make a thread asking for advice if you're just going to stick your fingers in your ears and shout "Nuh uh, binders are horrible" over and over every time someone tries to help you?

Seems like a weird use of one's time.

[Snowbluff]

Oh wow, you can do that. I guess they don't call you the avatar of PC-dom for nothing.

Oh, that title? I destroyed a planet with a blackhole. :smalltongue:

[illyahr]

So, I'm trying to summarize the OP's point. Is he saying he doesn't like Binder because it doesn't do ludicrous damage at mook levels? He's in for a disappointing game if that's his position.

[Marlowe]

For a generalist class I wouldn't be comparing to a specialist, or a "generalist" class like Bard even. Factotum or Incarnum maybe, but notice how both of those let you do more than one thing at once. I can't really call anything versatile if it can only do one thing at a time. That's not versatile, that's just being able to change your specialization. Being versatile means having more than one option all the time. There's also the simple fact that with all the powers bundled into vestige sets that are limited by level, it's very possible you could run into an obstacle for which there simply is no particularly good vestige. Maybe next level you'd get the right vestige, but by the time you level up you won't need it anymore. That would also drive me nuts.

Factotum maybe. Incarnate? I've never built an Incarnate at the low levels we are talking about that I didn't throw out as being a one-trick pony that simply got to change its trick every day. Incarnates don't even get to change that trick in the middle of the day with a feat, as the Binder can, but have to change one soulmeld at a time.

Its combat role is dictated by alignment of all things, with some combos of alignment and soulmelds being hilariously dysfunctional, the chassis is monumentally dull, with nothing to back you up if your soulmeld choices don't turn out to be relevant, and most Incarnate builds I've seen require heavy feat investment to specialize in one thing.

So, no. I don't notice that at all. I could very easily be WRONG. But I suspect you're comparing a high-level Incarnate to a low-level Binder. And not even giving fair weight to a Binders abilities.

[Troacctid]

Incarnates at low levels can't really go wrong by preparing for combat. Lightning Gauntlets/Dissolving Spittle + Astral Vambraces will allow you to consistently deal out damage while taking none.

[Marlowe]

Agreed. Isn't that kind of dull? As I said, a one-trick pony. Your versatility at that level is pretty much nil.

Because Soulmelds don't have access limited by your level like spells and maneuvers, they balanced the class by splitting any given role across multiple soulmelds, so that the class wouldn't be broken at high levels. The downside to this is that at low levels you have to throw all your resources at one thing to even attempt to do it competently.

On top of which, the class is insanely fiddly both in play and in build, and suffers from being based around the silliest, most poorly defined, and most mocked mechanic in D&D.

Making an Incarnate is like making a nice fish dinner out of a freshly-caught Skate. It certainly can be done well, but it's debatable if its worth doing when you already know what aisle the Ruegenfisch is in.

[Troacctid]

Hey, let's be fair. Most classes don't have a lot of options at level 1.

[Marlowe]

Was it not the point of contention that Incarnates WERE a class with lots of options at low levels?

Turning into a derailment. So I'll just close with by saying I admit I may be selling the Incarnate short. This is because ultimately when I stood back from my builds and squinted I realised that the class is nothing but the sum of its levels, feats and class features.

Every other class in the game seems to have some sort of flavour that it was designed towards, with a varying degree of success. The Incarnate, on the other hand, is just a pile of numbers. An obvious testbed for the Incarnum subsystem and little else. Even the "powers based on alignment" thing is not unique to it, but DOES stop it from even being a blank slate on which you could write your own concept. Once I came to this conclusion, I lost all interest in the class completely.

[Keldrin]

The Green Lady vestige first showed up in Jacob's write up of their own run of Age of Worms, so it is 3.5 originally.
My own experience with the binder was that it was fun but frustrating for many of the reasons above. Getting two vestiges at 6th level would be better.

[heavyfuel]

Shadowcaster comes to mind, though not strictly.

Shadowcasters seem a bit too weak at my low level. 1 mysteries per day with nothing from high score is tough to swallow. Thanks for the suggestion!


Dragonfire Adept? You mostly use your SU breath weapon every turn. Although the Invocations are not SU.

Also, you can possibly use Supernatural Transformation feat to turn SLAs into SUs for any class. The cheesiest use for this is Supernatural Transformation [Psionics] (this is legal due to some sloppy wording equating psi-like abilities to regular psionic manifesting and then transparency rules allowing PLAs to to be treated like SLAs). However, there are many less cheesy things you can do, including the invocation things mentioned before. :)

Dragonfire Adept seems really good.

As for the feat, I might take a look at a build that works with it. Double thanks!


Why make a thread asking for advice if you're just going to stick your fingers in your ears and shout "Nuh uh, binders are horrible" over and over every time someone tries to help you?

Seems like a weird use of one's time.


So, I'm trying to summarize the OP's point. Is he saying he doesn't like Binder because it doesn't do ludicrous damage at mook levels? He's in for a disappointing game if that's his position.

I never said that Binders were horrible as a whole, just that if you don't have the right Vestige bound for the situation you're in, your chassis doesn't offer much, if at all. And since you can only have 1 Vestige until lv 8, not being prepared seems more commom than being.

Dealing ludicrous damage isn't the point. For example, the fire breath that deals LVd6 would be great at our table, but the inability to do anything else for 4 rounds really bums me out.

I also never asked for advice. I asked if I was missing something regarding their power, and I was. Turns out their power comes from being able to bind a new Vestige each day and this post did make me understand why Binder is T3. However, his versatility of being good at one thing every day, instead of being somewhat good in several things all the time isn't what I was looking for. Additionally, a point most people seem to agree is that lvs 5~7 are hell for the Binder, and as these are the lvs I expect the campaign to finish at, the Binder becomes an even less appealing choice.

[illyahr]

I also never asked for advice. I asked if I was missing something regarding their power, and I was. Turns out their power comes from being able to bind a new Vestige each day and this post did make me understand why Binder is T3. However, his versatility of being good at one thing every day, instead of being somewhat good in several things all the time isn't what I was looking for. Additionally, a point most people seem to agree is that lvs 5~7 are hell for the Binder, and as these are the lvs I expect the campaign to finish at, the Binder becomes an even less appealing choice.

Ah ok. That clears things up a bit. To be fair, all classes can be rough at low levels (especially those that require preparation, like the wizard and cleric), but the Binder does have a very awkwardly placed dead level. If your campaign isn't going to get you past it, full Binder probably isn't a good idea.

[Marlowe]

I never said that Binders were horrible as a whole, just that if you don't have the right Vestige bound for the situation you're in, your chassis doesn't offer much, if at all. And since you can only have 1 Vestige until lv 8, not being prepared seems more commom than being.



I'm very curious as to why both you and Fizban are completely ignoring the Expel Vestige feat, which exists exactly to deal with the sort of situation you are describing.

I'm also puzzled by the reference to a chassis with D8 hit dice, 3/4 BAB, 2 good saves and a good skill list as "doesn't offer much, if at all" when very few classes with extramundane abilities have anything better, and those that do are either much more limited in role (Duskblade) or else have extremely vestigial magic at this level (Ranger. Various Paladin re-tools). The Binder could use some more skill points, but considering what can be done with vestiges its basic chassis is about as meaty as could be without being accused of brokenness.

At level 7, your apparent cut-off point, you'll have 2 BAB less than the fighter and maybe 8 fewer hit points. That's NOT an incredible disparity in the "hitting people with things" business considering one class has magic powers and the other doesn't. [EDIT: And I wasn't even remembering the Binder's pact argumentation abilities, which close the gap still further.]

Frankly, the impression you're giving is that you have extremely unrealistic expectations.

[Fizban]

I suspect you're comparing a high-level Incarnate to a low-level Binder. And not even giving fair weight to a Binders abilities.
My experience is in the level 3-6 range, and a Binder doesn't get two vestiges until 8th level. Now, I was doing Incarnate/Totemist multiclass (because why wouldn't you?), and I'm well aware of all the problems with incarnum including the alignment bull. It's actually most powerful at low levels and extremely frontloaded, the late level problems have nothing to do with role splitting, but rather that the top tier effects are simply delayed too long to be relevant and the scaling is tiny (attempting to compensate for the frontloading).

I agree that you are selling incarnum short, you'll find that the Incarnate and Totemist have just as much fluff as the Wizard (if not more): pretty much nothing individually since it's all in the magic system and the stuff they use.

[Edit: The unrealistic expectations talk was apparently specifically about how non-specialized extramundane classes always have weaker chassis, not a more general note about the Binder as a whole-but it seemed to me more like a general comment at the time] As for the Expel Vestige feat, I'm not ignoring it: it just doesn't let you do any more things at once. You can change your specialization quickly 1/day (at the cost of annoying penalties no other class has to deal with), but you can still only do one vestige at a time until 8th level, and that's not good enough for me. I don't see how one could have an "unrealistic expectation" of what a class can do. Maybe in the context of official first party material (if you think Binder is in fact doing it best, which I disagree), but it's been years since that was a valid limitation. I've got reams of character builds and homebrew classes, without even dipping into Pathfinder conversions, which can beat the Binder in both power and versatility. I'd also point out that I never suggested matching the fighter on BAB and/or hp was enough of a backup: it's not. As far as I'm concerned, any class which has to rely on "has hit dice and actions" because their class features aren't helping has already lost.

[Marlowe]

You're taking words seriously out of context, including writing as though what I said in response to the OP, with quote even, was directed at you.

"Unrealistic expectations" was directly and explicitly in response to his comment on "chassis". Not in response to any greater discussion as to "what a class can do". And I fully stand by the observation that if he expects a class with a broad range of extramundane abilities to have a chassis much better than the Binder he has very demanding expectations of what a base class should give.

[Waazraath]

I also never asked for advice. I asked if I was missing something regarding their power, and I was. Turns out their power comes from being able to bind a new Vestige each day and this post did make me understand why Binder is T3. However, his versatility of being good at one thing every day, instead of being somewhat good in several things all the time isn't what I was looking for. Additionally, a point most people seem to agree is that lvs 5~7 are hell for the Binder, and as these are the lvs I expect the campaign to finish at, the Binder becomes an even less appealing choice.

But tbh, think you are still missing something, that is, the ability to pick one vestige, optimize it with race and feats, and then being able to be good at several things, including at the levels you describe as 'hell'.

Example build. Warforged binder 6 ('hell level')
Feats: Adamentine body (1), jaws of death (3), improved binding (4), healing OR water devotion (6)

You have:
- a decent tank, full plate, DR 2/-, decent HP.
- 3 attacks, damage augmentation 1/5 rounds
- the ability to augment offensive or defensive abilities with pact augmentation
- immunity to fear
- your own darkness aura (20% miss chance) and the ability to see through it yourself
- a very strong teleportation effect 1/day)
- either unlimited healing for the entire party, or a continuous medium water elemental ally (to scount, find traps, fight, etc. etc.)

With a build like this, you can fill two roles at a high level of competence, be both be the tank, and either the healer or the summoner/scout.

The extra of the binder is that, if you know beforehand that all this really isn't usefull, you do have other options available.

[Fizban]

You're taking words seriously out of context, including writing as though what I said in response to the OP, with quote even, was directed at you.

"Unrealistic expectations" was directly and explicitly in response to his comment on "chassis". Not in response to any greater discussion as to "what a class can do". And I fully stand by the observation that if he expects a class with a broad range of extramundane abilities to have a chassis much better than the Binder he has very demanding expectations of what a base class should give.
I don't think it's that out of context considering you led the post with "both you and Fizban." I do admit that I did not properly read the part you were quoting, but in my defense I was attempting to respond to all four of your posts since the one quoting me at the top of the page simultaneously, and would have responded to that part even if I'd noticed it wasn't directed at me. Furthermore, putting the bit about "unrealistic expectations" on it's own at the end makes it feel more like a general comment and less like part of the specific rebuttal. I will edit my post.

I do not disagree with the fact that extramundane classes usually have weaker chassis, that is indeed true. The only reason they do so seems to be. . . tradition? The assumption that any amount of magic or versatility must have reduced BAB/HD/saves/skills because some poorly designed classes in the PHB have little more than those going for them. I wouldn't call it overpowered if the Binder had full BAB, in fact considering how often people say the Monk should have full BAB and how much the Binder seems expected to rely on attacks rather than supernatural abilities, I'd expect people to clamoring for it. I'm constantly hyping the Servant Soul which has 3/4 BAB. . . . plus free scaling enhancement bonuses and an attack bonus equivalent to match full BAB when you do your main "rage" ability at 6th and beyond. I don't automatically expect classes with a broad range of extramundane abilities to have a powerful chassis, but if the magic isn't good enough to carry the fighting side then the chassis had better be able to pick up the slack. If it's not at-will or serious buffs it should probably have full BAB, and most of the vestiges are neither (disclaimer: no I haven't re-read all the vestiges recently, but at low-levels there's only so many you can choose from). That said and for lack of a better phrase, Tome of Magic is the book of weak magic, so of course it's going to disagree.

Back to the OP, the problem was,

TLDR: Low-level Binders suck after they use their 1/combat abilities. Need help.
Well, that's the point: you get a 1/combat ability that's stronger than an at-will ability, but once you use it you're stuck swinging a stick. Amon deals 1d6/level instead of 1d6/2 levels like a Warlock/DFA/incarnum user after the frontload wears off: he only does it 1/5 rounds, but if the rest of the party piles on you theoretically don't need more than that. Coordinate with party to end the fight in 2-3 rounds and it's still as good as having a weaker at-will, but otherwise you're not allowed to focus on spamming magic in combat unless you can find a vestige of your level which can, but none do at low levels. Instead you get a smattering of abilities based on the vestige which generally assume you can swing a stick, because the class is balanced assuming that swinging is stick is the standard and getting magicky stuff means your stick swinging should be weaker.

[Beheld]

I'm also puzzled by the reference to a chassis with D8 hit dice, 3/4 BAB, 2 good saves and a good skill list as "doesn't offer much, if at all" when very few classes with extramundane abilities have anything better, and those that do are either much more limited in role (Duskblade) or else have extremely vestigial magic at this level (Ranger. Various Paladin re-tools).

Except for all the ones that have way better stuff than that, like anything at all with Divine casting, which basically gets all that as the base chassis, and then also spells which are strictly better than Vestiges. (And also Wildshape and an AC in one case).

d8HD, 3/4 BAB and 2 good saves is the default for extramundane ability classes who still punch people in the face with really good class features. Duskblade, Paladin, Ranger gets full BAB and/or higher HD (And spells), Totemists get that + melds, Marshals get that. Clerics and Spirit Shamans get that +Spells, Druids get that + Wildshape +AC + Spells. Dragon Shaman's get that. Favored Souls get that +all good saves + Spells.

d8HD, 3/4BAB, and two good saves isn't a good chassis, it is an average one, if your class features don't keep up and that is your chassis, you don't keep up. If your argument is ever "I'm like a Spirit Shaman who doesn't cast spells" you basically stopped making arguments about how the class is worth taking.

[Troacctid]

- either unlimited healing for the entire party, or a continuous medium water elemental ally (to scount, find traps, fight, etc. etc.)

Unlike most domain feats, Water Devotion does not allow you to expend turning attempts for extra uses. It's strictly 1/day unless you take it multiple times.

[Waazraath]

Unlike most domain feats, Water Devotion does not allow you to expend turning attempts for extra uses. It's strictly 1/day unless you take it multiple times.

Is that an errata? Cause in the book is the same line that if you spend a turn attempt, you can use it again.

[Troacctid]

Is that an errata? Cause in the book is the same line that if you spend a turn attempt, you can use it again.

It is indeed an errata.

[xyianth]

Expel vestige works exactly once per day. If you need to swap to a non-combat vestige in the middle of the day, you better hope you don't need to swap again. The chassis is irrelevant if your class features are nothing, nada, and zilch; you might as well be an NPC warrior then. That is the situation binders find themselves in if they have the wrong vestige/pact augmentations. It is not wrong to point out that binders have plenty of trap choices to pick from and can easily make themselves ineffective if they aren't careful.

As for the disparity between fighters and binders being small, it is important to put those numbers in perspective: At ECL 7, a fighter has a BAB of +7/+2 which means 2 attacks as a full attack. They also have 2 more feats than an equivalent level binder. Because fighters are not versatile at all, the likelihood that those feats compliment the fighter's combat style is fairly high. The binder on the other hand has vestiges and pact augmentations. With the right selections, these can more than make up the difference between the fighter's abilities and the binder. With the wrong choices, the binder is a d8hp, +5 BAB, light armor and simple weapons user with 2+int skill points. That is far and away the worst martial chassis in the entire game. And it should further be noted that fighter 7 isn't exactly a powerhouse build to use as a measuring stick in the first place.

In my opinion, Binders are a bit of an odd class that is actually different tiers of power/versatility at different levels. At levels 1-7, Binders aren't versatile, and I'd argue they don't merit their T3 designation. You get 1 vestige at a time, and no vestiges cover more than one role. Even if you waste a feat on the Expel Vestige feat, its 1/day limit means you can only switch specialties once; so dealing with a social challenge by switching to Naberius in the middle of the day means your combat role is gone for the rest of it. (Worse actually, since by RAW vestiges remain bound for 24 hours; using expel vestige in the middle of the day means you can't change your vestige at the start of the next day unless you use the feat again) It is much, much better to play a low level binder as a specialist based around 1 vestige and only use other vestiges when you know you won't be in combat at all that day. Once you hit level 8, their versatility jumps up and their ability to deal with different situations does merit their T3 status. If Zceryll is on the table, at level 10 binders jump again to T2 status while bound to it.

I have played Binders from 1-epic several times in many different campaigns. After plenty of experimentation, most vestiges can be of some use at some point in your career, but not all vestiges are useful when you can first access them. Some, like Ronove and Amon are terrible at all levels. Some, like Aym and Leraje are great when you first can access them, but utterly fail to scale. Some, like Karsus and Astaroth are only useful as support to other vestiges. Expel Vestige is a waste of a feat, it doesn't help as much as people think at low levels, and at mid-high levels you can buy a better version of it as a vestige phylactery. (buy several, so you can swap more than 1/day) Improved Binding absolutely does not need to be taken at 1st level as your strongest vestige options are all 1st level vestiges. (Aym, Leraje, and Naberius; The Green Lady is the only real exception to this) You can easily wait until you get a bonus feat at 4th level to pick it up. Improved Binding is much more valuable to multiclass binders though.

If you are interested in some minor changes that can improve the binder experience, here are some houserules I suggest (I hate dead levels):

At 3rd level, give binders the following ability:

Tap Vestige(Su): You can activate a vestige ability that is currently unavailable with a successful binder check. If you succeed, choose any other ability that the vestige grants and is currently available to you. That ability becomes unavailable for 5 rounds. For example: You can use Paimon's Dance of Death ability in round 1, then use this ability to trade Paimon's Whirlwind Attack ability for another use of Dance of Death in the second round. After which, both Dance of Death and Whirlwind Attack are unavailable for 5 rounds.
At 7th level, give binders the following ability:

Vestige Echo(Su): You can make a binder check to attempt to recall any one vestige's ability as an immediate action. The vestige does not currently have to be bound to you, but must have been bound to you at least once before. If successful, you gain access to the desired vestige ability for 5 rounds. You can use Vestige Echo at-will, but you can only use it 1/day per vestige.
At 12th level, give binders the following ability:

Lend Vestige(Su): With a touch, you can gift an ally the benefits of a single vestige you have bound. The ally can use the vestige's abilities as if they had your effective binder level. While the ally gains these benefits, you no longer benefit from any of the gifted vestige's abilities. You can not bind another vestige in place of the gifted vestige and are still considered bound to it. You can dismiss this ability at-will with a standard action.
At 15th level, give binders the following ability:

Improved Vestige Echo(Su): You can now regain all of a single vestige's abilities for 5 rounds when you use your Vestige Echo ability.
At 17th level, give binders the following ability:

Improved Lend Vestige(Su): You can choose to gift only certain abilities to an ally with your Lend Vestige ability. Only those abilities that you gift become unavailable to you for the duration.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you are interested in some minor changes that can improve the binder experience, here are some houserules I suggest (I hate dead levels):
I like bumping the vestige progression up to one extra vestige every 5 levels and making Expel Vestige part of the basic Binding ability, useable several times (Cha modifier?) a day.

[Waazraath]

It is indeed an errata.

Ah, thnx, missed that. That eliminates the choice I presented between either healer or summoner role :)