Gontor VS The Order's Pets

[Remagamer]

Assuming V doesn't check in on her familiar, do the collective animals of the Order (and Veldrina) stand a chance of surviving or winning a fight against Gontor? :smallconfused:

[littlebum2002]

He's out of spells, so I think Bloodfeast and the tiger could take him out.

[2.5 cats]

The animals don't stand a chance. The only one who can get through the Vampire's damage reduction 10 (at least get through enough to make a fast-healing vampire care) is Little Whiskers, who clearly is a coward and only would fight if attacked. Even if LW fights, doing enough damage on someone with decent armor, damage reduction, fast healing, and a few low-level spells seems extremely dubious. Meanwhile, tigers Armor Class is pretty awful, so Gontor's slam attack would take LW down fast and hard.

Bloodfeast was Baleful Polymorphed into "a small or smaller animal of no more than 1 Hit Die." I doubt Bloodfeat's attack would do more than 1d2 of damage, if anything.

Fortunately this almost certainly is a moot point. Gontor's orders are to grab the bauble, not kill the animals.

[xroads]

Assuming V doesn't check in on her familiar, do the collective animals of the Order (and Veldrina) stand a chance of surviving or winning a fight against Gontor? :smallconfused:

If we are talking about a classic straight up D&D 3.5 fight to the death scenario then, no. They're dead as eight track cassettes.

But since Rich is not staying strict D&D 3.5 mechanics, then maybe. Plus the Gondor's objective isn't necessary to slay them. His objective is to grab the orb, which the animals might be able to play "keep away" with til one of the PC's notice them.

[Quartz]

Yes, if Little Whiskers were to jump onto the desk and 'accidentally' knock the globe off, might it break?

[Remagamer]

If we are talking about a classic straight up D&D 3.5 fight to the death scenario then, no. They're dead as eight track cassettes.

But since Rich is not staying strict D&D 3.5 mechanics, then maybe. Plus the Gondor's objective isn't necessary to slay them. His objective is to grab the orb, which the animals might be able to play "keep away" with til one of the PC's notice them.

I think Gontor may attack if they resist, which I think is almost certainly going to happen in one form or another. If they were to play keep away or break the orb, unless Durkula has specified otherwise, I think Gontor will definitely attack.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

If Scruffy really is Belkar's animal companion his power should be about that of a level 4 pc by now, assuming a druids companion has the approximate strength of a pc of half the druids level, and halving that again for the ranger (and ignoring Scruffy's suboptimal species). Assuming the druids companion is as strong as the druid herself the maximum for Scruffy would be about level 8. (Yes, I'm wildly guessing here, not an animal companion expert, or only level 2 anyway.) A tiger is CR 4, a dire tiger would be 8, but it's a little out there to assume that's what Whiskers is. Blackwing is notable for his intelligence, move rate and armor class, but not for his direct damage. Bloodfeast is by far the weakest creature of the bunch, well under CR 1. Transformed, assuming the stats of an SRD tyrannosaurus (there doesn't seem to be an allosaurus), he'd be CR 8. I'd say they could probably pose a real problem to a lvl 4 or 5 character, level 8 when making some big assumptions. Maybe Level 10 or 11 on a good day with a decent plan and Bloodfeast transformed, or even higher with some defensive magic and a bunch of potions. But that's not the case here. My fist guess would be Gontor was more powerful than even that highest estimate before he got turned. He's a lot stronger now. Even without spells, they're not much of a threat in a direct fight.

(On the other hand, look what Roy did after being level drained a lot...)

[xroads]

I think Gontor may attack if they resist, which I think is almost certainly going to happen in one form or another. If they were to play keep away or break the orb, unless Durkula has specified otherwise, I think Gontor will definitely attack.

Oh yeah. In fact, in the last strip I think he was gearing up to turn into a dire wolf and eat Scruffy. But my point is that his intended goal is to get the orb. So, for example, he might get his hands on the orb and skedaddle, leaving all of the critters wounded but alive.

But then again, he could just as easily be annoyed enough to slaughter them outright before leaving with the orb.

[Baron Pineapple]

As far as Animal Companions go, don't be so quick to sell Mister Scruffy short.

A 16th level Ranger (which is what I think most people presume Belkar to be) would have as stock an Animal Companion as per a 13th level Druid; getting +8 bonus HD, +8 Natural Armor, +4 to Strength and Dex each, as well as extra feats plus Multiattack, Evasion, Devotion, and so forth. If Belkar had the feat Natural Bond or a similar feature in the Burlew-verse, then we're looking at a +10 HD, +10 Armor, +5 Str & Dex, plus a couple of 1:4 attribute bumps, and at least 3-4 feats to round out Mr Scruffy with. There's quite a few tasty feats in PHB2 and RoW for Animal Companions.

Either way, we're looking at Mr Scruff as being between a 9-12 HD Elite Arrayed Animal with quite a few class features. Even without the mechanical crunch in RAW, I think everyone can agree that ever since Mr Scruffy took up with Belkar, that he's been demonstrated by Burlew as being quite a bit above the qualities of any average housecat, and it's likely may have some special traits that would be suitable for the dramatic necessities of his universe.

I figure that Gontor is likely a 9th-11th level cleric, with a vampire template but no spells left thus leaving him as a suboptimal melee combatant. The best AB he could manage I am guessing is +10 to hit, maybe +12, whereas Mr Scruffy is looking at a MINIMUM AC of 27-28, which means Gontor misses 75% of the time at the very least. It's too bad that he's shown to not have the Companion feat that allows his natural weapons to affect enemies as if magic+silver, otherwise I would have wagered he could take Gontor solo.

I don't want to get bogged in too much nitty gritty, but a mob of likewise elite animals as shown in the comics is nothing to sneer at. Mr Scruffy alone is a good mob leader, and with the othes backing him, he could at the very least harass and hinder Gontor from getting the Orb. If optimized, they could slaughter the vampire.

[littlebum2002]

If Scruffy really is Belkar's animal companion his power should be about that of a level 4 pc by now, assuming a druids companion has the approximate strength of a pc of half the druids level, and halving that again for the ranger (and ignoring Scruffy's suboptimal species). Assuming the druids companion is as strong as the druid herself the maximum for Scruffy would be about level 8. (Yes, I'm wildly guessing here, not an animal companion expert, or only level 2 anyway.) A tiger is CR 4, a dire tiger would be 8, but it's a little out there to assume that's what Whiskers is. Blackwing is notable for his intelligence, move rate and armor class, but not for his direct damage. Bloodfeast is by far the weakest creature of the bunch, well under CR 1. Transformed, assuming the stats of an SRD tyrannosaurus (there doesn't seem to be an allosaurus), he'd be CR 8. I'd say they could probably pose a real problem to a lvl 4 or 5 character, level 8 when making some big assumptions. Maybe Level 10 or 11 on a good day with a decent plan and Bloodfeast transformed, or even higher with some defensive magic and a bunch of potions. But that's not the case here. My fist guess would be Gontor was more powerful than even that highest estimate before he got turned. He's a lot stronger now. Even without spells, they're not much of a threat in a direct fight.

(On the other hand, look what Roy did after being level drained a lot...)

I love how you casually mention that the Cleric is out of spells, as if that isn't the biggest factor in the fight.

Without his vampire template he'd be practically helpless; he doesn't look like a melee character. With his template hes much more tanky and able to hit slightly better, but still, he's not a very worthy opponent. The only question is whether the animals would be able to strip away HP fast enough to overcome his fast healing and before he can level drain them to death. And if Bloodfeast was dispelled I think they could do exactly that.

[zimmerwald1915]

Without his vampire template he'd be practically helpless; he doesn't look like a melee character. With his template hes much more tanky and able to hit slightly better, but still, he's not a very worthy opponent. The only question is whether the animals would be able to strip away HP fast enough to overcome his fast healing and before he can level drain them to death. And if Bloodfeast was dispelled I think they could do exactly that.
Any character who could dispel Bloodfeast's baleful polymorph could also smoke the spell-less vampire cleric by themselves, no animals required.

[littlebum2002]

Any character who could dispel Bloodfeast's baleful polymorph could also smoke the spell-less vampire cleric by themselves, no animals required.

I'm choosing to ignore that part

[Bird]

Oh yeah. In fact, in the last strip I think he was gearing up to turn into a dire wolf and eat Scruffy.
I think so, too--dog vs cat is (in Gontor's mind) "more befitting the proper order of things."

For what it's worth, it's also plausible to me that seeing a dire wolf will change Little Whiskers' personality, if the Giant goes for the whole cats don't like dogs thing.

[Jasdoif]

A 16th level Ranger (which is what I think most people presume Belkar to be) would have as stock an Animal Companion as per a 13th level DruidA Ranger has an animal companion equivalent to a Druid of half the level (since OOTS is based on 3.5; I'm going to guess you're thinking of Pathfinder), so that'd be 8th....And Belkar has at least one barbarian level, so he isn't likely to have 16 in Ranger in the first place.

[Vendanna]

I think so, too--dog vs cat is (in Gontor's mind) "more befitting the proper order of things."

For what it's worth, it's also plausible to me that seeing a dire wolf will change Little Whiskers' personality, if the Giant goes for the whole cats don't like dogs thing.

I think I read somewhere that undead (or vampires) affect negatively animals (they panic or don't want to come near?) or I'm recalling it wrong? (its the problem with not having played the game for years) so most of the critters wouldn't go near it. (the lizard/alloysaurus and tiger I guess)

btw, this is the second time that Mr.scruffy attacks a Vampire. its obvious that the Cat will need to get something to be able to affect undeads (that or its role on the final fight would be an Angry housecat flying at Red Cloak's soft face)

[Wildroses]

By pure personality, I think Little Whisker's is going to be the most useless animal of the lot which is a darn shame considering he actually has the bulk to make a real difference in the fight. Veldrina had it right when she mused she'd gotten a defective tiger. Mr Scruffy is certainly the one in the most danger as he has never let things like overwhelming odds against him and being way out of his weight class stop him fighting.

[dsollen]

Okay I've never actually played 3.5, so I could be wrong here. but as I understand it scruffy is kind of screwed. Cat's, while fearsome to commoners, are pretty weak on the offense department.

Belkar is probably level 16 according to the geekery thread. a ranger companion is equal to half a druids so kitty is equal to a level 6-8 companion, even if belkar was actually level 17 this would be true since he has at least one level of barbarian.

At this level scruffy gains +4HD, +4 natural armor, +2 str/dex, evasion, a +4 to will saves against enchancment and a bunch of other things that are worthless without belkar there.

That's a different defensive boost, and cats are already kind of defensive. However, offensively he gets +2 to str & dex and that's it.

Now the cat template. He has a base dex of 15 and str of 3 and weapon finess. His full attack is:
2 claws +4 melee (1d2–4) and bite –1 melee (1d3–4)

So his ability to hit isn't horible, what an attack roll with +7?

But look at his attacks. those -4 mean that the damage for every attack is down to 1, and his str bonus is too far negative for a +2 to it to compensate. every attack does one damage only.

a vampire has DR 10/silver and magic. Unless Scruffy uses the same dentist as argent (which, we can't really rule out with Hinjo I suppose) he is not able to ignore it.

So basically, it's impossible for Scruffy to pierce any vampires DR. He has some increased survivability so he won't die immediately to attacks; but he has no ability to hurt the vampire back in core 3.5.

For the record a base tigers full attack is:
2 claws +9 melee (1d8+6) and bite +4 melee (2d6+3)

So LW can do damage through the DR, though he will only do it half the time. Best case he does 4+4+5 damage. A vampire heals 5 damage per round, so best case at the end of the round LW did 8 points of damage. Well, I guess *best* case is a crit, which would do a bit more damage I suppose.

Still, mean case LW does no damage at all even if he hits with every attack (average attack damage is 10, 9, 9 against a DR of 10). average of 1.57716 if a crit isn't landed. with the vampire fast healing 5 damage each round he averages -3.423 damage lol.

Now on crit best case he can do is 29 damage, which is much nicer, almost 5 HD of damage. Of course as a high level cleric he likely can survive at least 3 of those crits, and he will counteract all the damage from a max damage crit in about 9 rounds; where as LW only manages a crit on average of ever 20 rounds; and the average crit's damage is only 19.

So yeah, scruffy and the others do no damage. LW full attack do less damage then fast heal and even landing two crits at max damage one after the other, less then a 1/500 chance, wouldn't kill the vampire if the vamp's base level was at least 10.

Nothing prevents rich from bending these rules, by by core the animal companions are not going to be having much luck here.




His BAB is

[GreatWyrmGold]

If Gontor remembers all of his vampire powers or has more than the meanest spells left, there's no chance for the animals. The only ways they would have a serious shot at taking down the vampire would be to exploit his vampiric weaknesses or band together and Bloodfeast was un-polymorphed. And considering the negative side effects that turning a small lizard into a large dinosaur in a medium airship cabin...let's hope Durkon's staff was low on charges.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Of course there's always the weird theories, like Scruffy actually being his former master in disguise, or a representative of the southern pantheon. That would explain why he was so clearly dominant over Whiskers. :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

I think I read somewhere that undead (or vampires) affect negatively animals (they panic or don't want to come near?) or I'm recalling it wrong?
Pretty sure that's just wraiths (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm) and spectres (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/spectre.htm) in core, not all undead.

[foobar1969]

in the last strip I think he was gearing up to turn into a dire wolf and eat Scruffy.
No, in #1013 page 2 panel 6, Gonetor is almost certainly using Children of the Night to command rats, bats, or wolves, and have his minions deal with his enemies' minions. That's "a fight more befitting of the proper order of things."

[2.5 cats]

No, in #1013 page 2 panel 6, Gonetor is almost certainly using Children of the Night to command rats, bats, or wolves, and have his minions deal with his enemies' minions. That's "a fight more befitting of the proper order of things."

I hadn't thought about that, but that makes so much sense! Especially since Gontor promised to "provide" Mr. Scruffy with a fight.

[Remagamer]

I hadn't thought about that, but that makes so much sense! Especially since Gontor promised to "provide" Mr. Scruffy with a fight.

That makes sense, but I'm not sure about the wording (calls forth?) being a summoning of creatures or a compelling of existing nearby creatures...which on an airship would be limited.
(Sorry if it's obvious, but I am inexperienced with the system.)

[Bird]

Well, now we know.

Good call, foobar!

[Wildroses]

Well I was wrong about Little Whiskers. He did enter the fight.

I think Blackwings plan of getting their humans will save them. I think V is going to feel Blackwing is now in serious pain and fear for Little Whiskers and himself and come to investigate.

[brian 333]

Now is the time for the Sexy Shoeless Cat Of War to make his debut. A fight more fitting the most badass feline ever is about to happen! Mr.Scruffy vs. The Children Of The Night. I predict there will be a mound of rats upon which Mr. Scruffy sits, calmly licking his bloody paws when Vaarsuvius finally deigns to look in on hir familiar.

[Remagamer]

Now is the time for the Sexy Shoeless Cat Of War to make his debut. A fight more fitting the most badass feline ever is about to happen! Mr.Scruffy vs. The Children Of The Night. I predict there will be a mound of rats upon which Mr. Scruffy sits, calmly licking his bloody paws when Vaarsuvius finally deigns to look in on hir familiar.

...I really, really want this to happen.

[dsollen]

...I really, really want this to happen.

narratively, and even mechanically, this seems unlikely and yet...I too would really love to see that lol.

[rodneyAnonymous]

So LW can do damage through the DR, though he will only do it half the time. Best case he does 4+4+5 damage. A vampire heals 5 damage per round, so best case at the end of the round LW did 8 points of damage. Well, I guess *best* case is a crit, which would do a bit more damage I suppose.

Gontor, being undead, doesn't take extra damage from critical hits.

[KorvinStarmast]

Mr.Scruffy vs. The Children Of The Night. I predict there will be a mound of rats upon which Mr. Scruffy sits, calmly licking his bloody paws when Vaarsuvius finally deigns to look in on hir familiar. He's got three so far, based on the number of on screen "x in eyes" rats we have seen. He may have waxed a few more (one per frame?) as other action was the focus before camera cut back to Scruffy.

I think Little Whiskers squashed three before GonToHel use him as a sippy cup.

Lizard versus rat ; with them sharp teeth and his tough lizard hide, Extreminator may account for a few before all is said and done.

The rats should be able to tell us whether or not familiars taste like chicken, should any survive to write an after action report from this battle.