What is the Knight missing?

[ngilop]

Hey guys, I am currently working on a Knight Re-tool and am happily content with what I have so far.

Though that so far is not finished and just a rough draft. one such example is I findangled fighting challenged to work as a taunt with MUCH more lenient features ( still works on undead, provided they are intelligent, such as vampires) and got rid of mounted combat. added in a way for the Knight to functions as cover for adjacent allies with less armor bonus to AC than him and such.


What does the playground think will knock the knight up into high 'tier' 4 or 'tier'3. My only caveats being no magic ( spells, meldshaping, psionics maneuvers and such)

of course 4 skill points per level are a given :)

Just want to see if my rough draft ideas are along the good lines and see if there are cool features that the community can think up that I cannot.

[ComaVision]

My quick fix is:

Gestalt Marshal and Knight, add in some maneuver progression (including Iron Tortoise from Path of War)

[torrasque666]

Needs a Special Mount. Hell, they get Mounted Combat and their abilities encourage it but past the first few levels, without a special mount you need to rely on either more esoteric mounts or run the risk of having your mount get killed from under you.

[Hiro Quester]

Something like the Marshall's auras would certainly kick it up a notch. Inspiring speeches and so on, like a bardic music performance, that add a morale bonus to allies' abilities.

[Flickerdart]

Tanking is a dumb role. Don't encourage hard pulls.

Instead, consider what a knight ought to be able to do. Historical knights are all about the charge, but ubercharging is boring. Instead, consider the benefits of a massed charge - breaking the enemy's line, and crushing his morale while boosting your own side's.

Thus, a knight needs to be able to do these things: deliver himself rapidly to a point on the battlefield, act as a beacon for his allies to rally around, and encourage his enemies to retreat. Because he doesn't need speed constantly, a mount is unnecessary, but he needs some kind of speed boost feature like the tarrasque's rush that he can pop every once in a while. You can base it on Knight's Challenge uses, since "guy charging straight into everyone's face" is a pretty explicit challenge!

Lance-based reach shenanigans are classic for the knight, so why not take advantage of that? Give him effects that apply within his reach, maybe positive effects that boost his allies as well as negative effects that hinder his enemies.

[Dusk Raven]

Needs a Special Mount. Hell, they get Mounted Combat and their abilities encourage it but past the first few levels, without a special mount you need to rely on either more esoteric mounts or run the risk of having your mount get killed from under you.

I think that would fall under a supernatural effect, and the goal here is an entirely mundane knight. That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of buff to whatever the Knight happens to be riding - probably not on the level of an animal companion, since I don't think knights, or historical cavalry in general, got attached to particular mounts for obvious reasons, but I think Mounted Combat doesn't get enough love.

Meanwhile, I throw my support behind giving them some features of Marshall, though they'll be much more based on pathos than precise coordination. Kind of like a mundane version of Bardic music (which leads one to wonder if the two can stack...).


Tanking is a dumb role. Don't encourage hard pulls.

I actually enjoy tanking in games for the most part, it's just that tanking is really hard to do, realistically, without drawing aggro of some sort. As it is, the Knight's Challenge seems like it wouldn't work on a lot of foes, namely ones with no sense of honor or ego, but I'm not going to complain too much.


Thus, a knight needs to be able to do these things: deliver himself rapidly to a point on the battlefield, act as a beacon for his allies to rally around, and encourage his enemies to retreat. Because he doesn't need speed constantly, a mount is unnecessary, but he needs some kind of speed boost feature like the tarrasque's rush that he can pop every once in a while. You can base it on Knight's Challenge uses, since "guy charging straight into everyone's face" is a pretty explicit challenge!

Lance-based reach shenanigans are classic for the knight, so why not take advantage of that? Give him effects that apply within his reach, maybe positive effects that boost his allies as well as negative effects that hinder his enemies.

The "Rush" feature is certainly unique, although in reality it's a common tactic for predators, but not so for sustained battles. Makes me wonder if there should be some sort of dichotomy between the Knight and the Barbarian, with the latter focusing on intense bursts of power and the former in it for the long haul.

That aside, I had to remind myself that you don't need to be mounted to take advantage of a lance's abilities. Although I still wonder how a lance is terribly different from most other polearms, that's something I'll save for later, and I'll accept RAW for now.

[Hiro Quester]

Makes me wonder if there should be some sort of dichotomy between the Knight and the Barbarian, with the latter focusing on intense bursts of power and the former in it for the long haul.


I play in a group with a Barbarian and a Knight, who indeed adopt these roles. The Barbarian is out in front, dealing damage. The knight puts himself between the bad guys and his more squishy friends, and draws to his hard-to-hit AC attacks that would otherwise focussed on his less survivable friends.

The knight does less damage; his role is protection, but destruction. So the challenge ability is the core feature of the knight (as my friend plays him). that method of drawing ago is essential.

A method of hustling to the right spot would be a welcome advantage. This is one weakness of our party's knight; his well-armored movement speed is too low.

[Ellowryn]

To add to the dichotomy with barbarian why don't you hybridize the knight with the dwarven defender PrC? Obviously get rid of the crappy clause that makes you have to stay still, but otherwise Defensive Stance is a nice thematic opposite for the barbarian rage.

I would also recommend looking at the Warder class from Path of War in pathfinder. It has some really good defensive abilities that while they do not actually force an opponent to attack them it greatly hampers their ability to target anything else, so you might want to steal/adapt some of those abilities (even if you don't want maneuvers).

[Aleolus]

On ghe mount note, how about giving them a class feature like the Druids Animal Companion, but it has to be a horse or pony of some kind, maybe with the option of more exotic horse like creatures at higher levels?

[Red Fel]

In answer to the thread title: A point.

Look, any given class or PrC should, ideally, either introduce a useful new mechanic, or come up with a novel or specialized application of an existing one. It should, in essence, do something nobody else can do, or better than they can. (Ignoring the Tier 1 classes that do everything, and the Tier Suck classes that can't even do what they're meant to, for a moment.)

Let's look at what the Knight has, and try to figure out its point. Generally speaking, it has:
Big hit die, little skill points, good BAB and Will save.
Knight's Challenge. This is the "new mechanic" the class introduces and relies upon.
Mounted Combat. Yay, free feat. No mount, but free feat.
Shield Block, Armor Mastery. Abilities that make your armoring a bit better.
Bonus Feat. Yay, more bonus feats, consisting either of "take longer to die" or "do a thing on horseback."
Bulwark of Defense, Vigilant Defender, (Greater) Shield Ally. Abilities that let you control the battlefield and who takes a hit.
Impetuous Endurance. Don't fail saves on a natural 1. You'll still fail, though, because 1s suck.
Okay. So we have the Knight's Challenge, a bunch of feats, some mild BFC and some soaking powers. So what's the point?

Well, it could be tanking. That would explain the Knight's Challenge abilities, Shield Ally, and the various armor boosts. But as mentioned, tanking sucks, and these abilities are uniquely bad for it.

It could be mounted combat. That would explain the Mounted Combat feat and the other mounted combat feat options. But as mentioned, you don't actually get a mount of your own; if you're not prepared to go out and buy/train one, tether it at the dungeon entrance, and be absolutely livid when it is stolen or killed, these are wasted abilities.

It could be BFC. With Bulwark of Defense and Vigilant Defender, people in your reach stay threatened. With Shield Ally, you'll decide who gets attacked, thank you very much. And with a Fireball, you really don't get a say in the matter, you're welcome very much.

So, again, the point? Step one is to figure out what it's actually supposed to do, and then find a better way to do it. People have mentioned combining it with the Marshal, which is a great idea if the goal is to be a loudmouthed leader of loyal louts. Others have mentioned mounted combat, but that basically ignores the vast majority of his class features in favor of a small few, several of which are optional. The list goes on.

Figure out what the point is, then work from there.

[Dusk Raven]

With regards to the above, I took a look at some of the abilities in the PHB2. I'm already thinking of improvements, which is not a good thing to have happen to a class.

So, Shield Block... it's a bit like Dodge, which in my opinion kind of sucks. However, while one could simply have it apply to all attacks, I like the idea of boosting the defense power against a single foe, making the Knight more effective against powerful opponents than hordes. Maybe increase the rate of progression?

Related to the above, Shield Ally should probably apply to non-physical attacks. Also, the idea of shielding your ally from a Fireball spell is pretty awesome. But I think rather than taking the damage twice, maybe another effect should be in play. Then it occurred to me... an idea I'd seen in a rework of 3.5 on this very forum. In the words of the author: "How many times have you seen a knight in fantasy artwork blocking a dragon's breath with his shield? It's awesome, right?" So why not do that? Have the Knight's Shield bonus to AC apply against touch attacks and on Reflex saves against AoEs (I'm sure someone can find a better wording for that than I). Later, this bonus is also conferred to all adjacent allies.

At this point the Knight may very well draw aggro through sheer prescence, so perhaps they get a passive ability (which may or may not be able to be lowered) where their sheer presence means that enemies attempting to target an adjacent or even nearby ally must make a Will save or target the Knight instead.

Thoughts? And also, why doesn't the Knight's Challenge affect intelligent undead? I seem to recall reading that in the posts here somewhere...

[Flickerdart]

The "Rush" feature is certainly unique, although in reality it's a common tactic for predators, but not so for sustained battles. Makes me wonder if there should be some sort of dichotomy between the Knight and the Barbarian, with the latter focusing on intense bursts of power and the former in it for the long haul.
A cavalry charge is a pretty common feature in a sustained battle. But that's not important because D&D encounters are not sustained battles by anyone's measure.

Anyway, the knight is less pouncing and more diving in front of an ally to shield them, which you see in action movies every time a bodyguard's charge gets shot. A paladin ACF (berronar valkyrie) has something like this.

[Dusk Raven]

A cavalry charge is a pretty common feature in a sustained battle. But that's not important because D&D encounters are not sustained battles by anyone's measure.

From what I've heard, charges of any sort are done at close range, and cavalry charges aren't done at a gallop, because horses have pretty low stamina compared to humans and a gallop would just tire them out. So basically, exactly like how the standard Charge action. Entirely correct about the length of D&D battles, for that matter.

[stanprollyright]

Between the Fighter and the Paladin, I'm not sure why the Knight needs to exist.

[Flickerdart]

From what I've heard, charges of any sort are done at close range, and cavalry charges aren't done at a gallop, because horses have pretty low stamina compared to humans and a gallop would just tire them out. So basically, exactly like how the standard Charge action. Entirely correct about the length of D&D battles, for that matter.

The famous Charge of the Light Brigade took 7 minutes and spanned ~2km (90 feet per round, in D&D terms). Granted, that's light cavalry and a different time period, but they were still lancers. The Knight can't even do this though - his speed is 40ft when charging, because OP is removing mounted combat.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If the knight is meant to be a tank, which I think it is, based on the similarity to MMORPG tanks: the ability to prevent enemy actions from hurting the party. That can be by lockdown (which Crusaders do, and Knights have some abilities for), and by increasing allies' AC/saves/miss chances/hit points (which Marshals, Crusaders and Dragon Shamans do, somewhat, and Knights have a little of). Tactical Soldier (from Miniatures Handbook) has a bunch of fun low-impact abilities you can spread across the class to fill out the levels.

The Knight's Challenge ability is a crutch fluff-wise and mechanically (there is and should be no way to reliably tank through taunts alone, especially single-target taunts that target a defence), apart from how you can earn more challenge uses by doing knightly stuff, that's good.

I would use something like Iron Guard's Glare scaling with class level, the Defensive Bulwark and Vigilant Defender abilities, both combined with native reach increases for the purpose of these abilities. Also add a few buff auras and inspire-type effects (or debuff auras and demoralize-type effects - maybe alignment-based?), the ability to count as cover (even concealment) for allies when using a shield, a few enhancements for AoOs, and an emergency button (every tank needs to be invulnerable sometimes). Some of these abilities should probably be in the form of maneuvers.

Maybe you can increase the strength of knight auras for every attack they intercept with Shield Ally.

[Curmudgeon]

Polish hussars trained extensively in mounted archery, and also wore "wings" to flap in the air and make a loud, discordant noise to demoralize their foes. The Knight needs these things: good ranged attacks, and an aura which affects enemies automatically within the Daunting Challenge range (100'), not as some quirky bit of insult yelling.

[nedz]

To raise the Knight a tier you need to give them more options.

Gestalt Marshal and Knight, add in some maneuver progression (including Iron Tortoise from Path of War)

This is good-ish, but we could offer more gestalt options.

Tier 5 // Tier 5 Gestalts

Knight // Fighter — More feats, but a bit naff. Too similar.
Knight // Monk — Interesting, come and get your face slapped lightly
Knight // CA Ninja — Doesn't really work, because Knight's Code
Knight // Healer — Excellent option if you want to play an armoured ambulance. Nice thematics for a hospitalar type (not the class), Exalted spells FTW
Knight // Swashbuckler — Pirate knight
Knight // Rokugan Ninja — Doesn't really work, because Knight's Code
Knight // Soulknife — Doesn't really work
Knight // Expert — Interesting option, skilltank
Knight // OA Samurai — Doesn't really work. Too similar.
Knight // Paladin — Doesn't really work. Too similar. Actually this combo works better than it first appears, see #26 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20143751&postcount=26) below.


Tier 5 // Tier 4 Gestalts

Knight // Rogue — Doesn't really work, because Knight's Code
Knight // Barbarian — Attack or Defend, slightly more options here. Shame about the alignment problem.
Knight // Warlock — Doesn't really work, because Knight's Code and alignment
Knight // Warmage — MBT
Knight // Scout — Stealth tank. Skirmish is a bit hard to trigger so a poor fit
Knight // Ranger — Stealth tank. The standard fighting styles are a poor fit, but this has options with ACFs
Knight // Hexblade — Doesn't really work, because Knight's Code and alignment
Knight // Adept — Witchtank
Knight // Spellthief — Doesn't really work, because Knight's Code
Knight // Marshal — Knight Commander
Knight // Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)


Many of these suffer because Knight is best if you stay in the class, but many of the others are good dips. So maybe a mash up of the above ? Only the casters or skillfull classes are interesting, with the exception of Marshal.

[Troacctid]

My current fix is to make them essentially a Paladin variant: they gain an aura of courage, a special mount, and spellcasting, as a Paladin. The spellcasting uses recharge magic, so it's effectively per-encounter rather than per-day. Also, more skills and good Fortitude.

I like what the Paladin spell list does for the class, but as of yet, I haven't had the chance to test this fix in a proper game.

[Aleolus]

Knight//Barbarian doesn't work because of alignment, unless DM fiat. Knights must be Lawful, Barbarian can't be lawful

[nedz]

Knight//Barbarian doesn't work because of alignment, unless DM fiat. Knights must be Lawful, Barbarian can't be lawful

Good point. I'll update my list

[ngilop]

I am getting rid of mounted combat because there is already a cavalier, and like previously mentioned I want a class to be unique.

And for me, the idea of a D&D tank is not just yelling at people and getting beat down, though that would be a part of it, its more along the lines of mundane battlefield control, and somehow making not attacking him so annoying that one must attack him.

ALso in regards to the shield blocking dragon breath, feels like evasion for everbody else!

[Aleolus]

Good point. I'll update my list

I have the same problem with Bard/Paladin mix, despite the feat in Complete Adventurer that says it lets them stack

[Dusk Raven]

ALso in regards to the shield blocking dragon breath, feels like evasion for everbody else!

Evasion reduces the effects on a successful save. This gives a bonus to the save itself. Quite different, but I like it.

[Aleolus]

Evasion reduces the effects on a successful save. This gives a bonus to the save itself. Quite different, but I like it.

Actually, the evasion comparison works better than the Reflex bonus. The Knight still takes damage because s/he is holding the shield, but everyone adjacent to them ducks behind them, into the gap the shield leaves in the breath weapon trail

[T.G. Oskar]

To raise the Knight a tier you need to give them more options.


This is good-ish, but we could offer more gestalt options.

Tier 5 // Tier 5 Gestalts

Knight // Paladin — Doesn't really work. Too similar.


I beg to differ. They have a pretty interesting synergy.

For starters, chassis. Knight offers good Will saves and d12 HD; Paladin offers the good Fort save, so you end up with d12 HD, good BAB, good Fort and Will saves, poor Reflex and skills. That's pretty impressive if you think about it. Certainly, there IS overlap in weapon and armor proficiencies, but for many other classes, the Knight is already offering the better set of proficiencies anyways. There's overlap only in proficiencies, but not on the numbers. Oh, and...the skill list is larger, actually: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nobility and royalty, religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, and Swim. Of those, only 3 skills are shared between the two. The low skill points hinder the bigger list, tho.

Then, class features. Paladins are extremely feat-starved - Knight has a reasonable selection of feats, in particular the suite of Mounted Combat feats (Paladins offer the special mount to boot). Knights have the Fighting Challenge, which is pretty nice and heavily Charisma-dependent...which merges nicely with the Paladin's dependence on Charisma for LoH and Turn Undead uses. In this case, Fighting Challenge adds a nice boost to damage alongside stuff like Divine Might and spellcasting (say, Prayer or Greater Magic Weapon, amongst others). Impetuous Endurance + Divine Grace means you'll pretty much NEVER fail a Fortitude save, since between your good Fort save bonus and your Divine Grace, you're simply unbeatable in terms of Fort saves. Virtually no skill overlaps with another, and in fact some synergize really well; I already mentioned Impetuous Endurance + Divine Grace, but Aura of Courage + Call to Battle means your allies are as good as immune to fear effects. Finally, Paladins don't have much in their use of swift actions unless they go Battle Blessing, so you get a few more uses of swift actions that don't rely on spellcasting at all.

Indeed, thematically, they are similar, but mechanically they're quite different. One of the big similarities is that both favor Mounted Combat, but when you look a bit deeper, the Paladin has what the Knight lacks (a proper mount to take benefit of it, plus spells to improve the mount). Other than that, the Knight has some buffs the Paladin lacks, which work nice together, and most importantly, the Knight has more class features than the Paladin, but the Paladin has spellcasting to compensate.

The real problem between Knight||Paladin gestalt is that as much as it provides synergy with its class features, it doesn't solve another of the big problems of the Paladin (MAD), and the Code becomes absolutely restrictive - you cannot do evil things, lie, cheat, steal, you must help everybody, you cannot gain bonuses from flanking, cannot strike flat-footed opponents and cannot deal lethal damage against a helpless foe...meaning you have to be incredibly Lawful AND Good. That would be the main problem with the gestalt, and if you work it well, you shouldn't really fear the Code.

I wouldn't dismiss the Knight||Paladin gestalt because of thematical similarities. If anything, it has a stronger focus than the two classes separately (Mounted Combat), and can dabble into a lot of stuff as well (healing, BFC, tanking, buffing). It could make for a very easy Tier 4, and possibly low Tier 3 just with that.

Now - Knight + Paladin + Marshal is most likely overkill. *wink wink*

[Dusk Raven]

Actually, the evasion comparison works better than the Reflex bonus. The Knight still takes damage because s/he is holding the shield, but everyone adjacent to them ducks behind them, into the gap the shield leaves in the breath weapon trail

And the Knight isn't afforded the same protection from being in the gap, because...?

I know the "armor is useless against any and all forms of magic" trope is in effect, so I'm not going to argue about that, but shields are an additional degree of removal from the Knight himself, so I can make a case for their shields protecting slightly from ranged magic attacks...

[nedz]

I beg to differ. They have a pretty interesting synergy.

For starters, chassis. Knight offers good Will saves and d12 HD; Paladin offers the good Fort save, so you end up with d12 HD, good BAB, good Fort and Will saves, poor Reflex and skills. That's pretty impressive if you think about it. Certainly, there IS overlap in weapon and armor proficiencies, but for many other classes, the Knight is already offering the better set of proficiencies anyways. There's overlap only in proficiencies, but not on the numbers. Oh, and...the skill list is larger, actually: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nobility and royalty, religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, and Swim. Of those, only 3 skills are shared between the two. The low skill points hinder the bigger list, tho.

Then, class features. Paladins are extremely feat-starved - Knight has a reasonable selection of feats, in particular the suite of Mounted Combat feats (Paladins offer the special mount to boot). Knights have the Fighting Challenge, which is pretty nice and heavily Charisma-dependent...which merges nicely with the Paladin's dependence on Charisma for LoH and Turn Undead uses. In this case, Fighting Challenge adds a nice boost to damage alongside stuff like Divine Might and spellcasting (say, Prayer or Greater Magic Weapon, amongst others). Impetuous Endurance + Divine Grace means you'll pretty much NEVER fail a Fortitude save, since between your good Fort save bonus and your Divine Grace, you're simply unbeatable in terms of Fort saves. Virtually no skill overlaps with another, and in fact some synergize really well; I already mentioned Impetuous Endurance + Divine Grace, but Aura of Courage + Call to Battle means your allies are as good as immune to fear effects. Finally, Paladins don't have much in their use of swift actions unless they go Battle Blessing, so you get a few more uses of swift actions that don't rely on spellcasting at all.

Indeed, thematically, they are similar, but mechanically they're quite different. One of the big similarities is that both favor Mounted Combat, but when you look a bit deeper, the Paladin has what the Knight lacks (a proper mount to take benefit of it, plus spells to improve the mount). Other than that, the Knight has some buffs the Paladin lacks, which work nice together, and most importantly, the Knight has more class features than the Paladin, but the Paladin has spellcasting to compensate.

The real problem between Knight||Paladin gestalt is that as much as it provides synergy with its class features, it doesn't solve another of the big problems of the Paladin (MAD), and the Code becomes absolutely restrictive - you cannot do evil things, lie, cheat, steal, you must help everybody, you cannot gain bonuses from flanking, cannot strike flat-footed opponents and cannot deal lethal damage against a helpless foe...meaning you have to be incredibly Lawful AND Good. That would be the main problem with the gestalt, and if you work it well, you shouldn't really fear the Code.

I wouldn't dismiss the Knight||Paladin gestalt because of thematical similarities. If anything, it has a stronger focus than the two classes separately (Mounted Combat), and can dabble into a lot of stuff as well (healing, BFC, tanking, buffing). It could make for a very easy Tier 4, and possibly low Tier 3 just with that.

Now - Knight + Paladin + Marshal is most likely overkill. *wink wink*

Interesting points.

I did only do a cursory analysis of 21 options so I am bound to have missed some details. I'll update my post — this could turn into a Knight handbook at this rate.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm... maybe put the mount back in, but not as mounted combat, and not a free mount?

: A Knight and his mount fight in unison, and in many ways, are one creature. A mounted knight forms a sort of gestalt being with his mount, provided that it has an intelligence score of 2 or less. This has the following benefits while the knight is mounted:
At first level and beyond, when either the knight or the mount is attacked, the Knight can choose to use his own AC, or his mount's AC. Likewise, when either makes a save, the knight can choose to use his own save modifiers, or the mount's save modifiers.
At 5th level and beyond, when either the knight or the mount (but not both by the same effect) is affected by a hostile effect (be that damage from a sword, stoning from a Flesh to Stone spell, the damage from being in a swarm, or anything else), the Knight may choose whether the effect is dealt to the mount or the knight. This decision is made after the attack itself is resolved (so, for example, the knight can choose to redirect the results of a failed save vs. Flesh to Stone to he mount after the knight fails the save, but before it takes effect). Note that many effects that would affect the knight will not affect the mount, and vice-versa; these still apply. A dominate person targeted at the knight that is redirected to a heavy warhorse has no effect on the warhorse (because it is not a humanoid), and is effectively negated.
At 10th level and beyond, when both the knight and the mount are subject to a multiple target effect (be that an area effect or an effect that targets both the knight and the mount separately), both the knight and the mount roll any appropriate saves, and if either successfully saves, both are considered to have successfully saved.
At 15th level and beyond, the knight and the mount are considered to be one creature for area or multiple target harmful effects, and cannot be targeted separately (although the knight still gets to choose whether the knight or the mount takes the effect, if it is harmful). Additionally, both the knight and the mount may still attempt saves as applicable, and if either succeeds on the save, the save is considered successful for both.

Note that this ability does not grant the knight a mount; the knight must still obtain a mount by some means.

Need to work on the wording, but eh.

So say a 10th level Knight buys a heavy warhorse (30 HP, Int-2). Mounted, the knight then gets hit by a Dominate Person spell, and fails the Will save. He sends the effect to the horse, who isn't humanoid, so nothing happens. Recognizing the interaction, the same wizard follows up with an Empowered Scorching Ray, directed entirely at the horse... who gets to use the Knight's touch AC. Two rays hit, and (after the empower) the damage rolls are 24 and 18. The knight has the mount take the 24 damage, and takes 18 himself, as he doesn't want it to die yet. At this point, the knight reaches the caster, and stabs him to death.

[Uhtred]

And the Knight isn't afforded the same protection from being in the gap, because...?

I know the "armor is useless against any and all forms of magic" trope is in effect, so I'm not going to argue about that, but shields are an additional degree of removal from the Knight himself, so I can make a case for their shields protecting slightly from ranged magic attacks...

There's a 3rd- party Pathfinder book for the Cavalier that gives it some interesting options, almost making it playable. From a feat standpoint, the book offers Shielded Evasion, which does exactly what it says on the tin, grants Evasion to someone using a shield. I also found Rampage, which lets you continue a charge in a straight line to the next opponent in that line if you drop an opponent while you're doing a mounted charge. You get all the benefits of a Lance of the Unending Charge, without having to shell out the money for it. Adding those two feats as either bonus feats from the Knight list or as class features may just lift it up a tier. I'd also look at a few of the 3.5 Knight PrC's, like Knight Protector and Knight of the Chalice, see if there's anything there worth yoinking.

[ngilop]

I am getting rid of mounted combat and am not going to add it nor anything remotely related to mounted combats, mounts, or things that get ridden to my Knight retool.

In regards to shield evasion I was thinking of a lesser and greater version wherein the greater version gives the Knight evasion as well.

one thing I am doing is giving the Knight more attacks of opportunities than normal spread out throughout the class im thinking every 3rd level? having those AoOs stop opponents from moving, casting a spell, and the like.

[Dusk Raven]

I am getting rid of mounted combat and am not going to add it nor anything remotely related to mounted combats, mounts, or things that get ridden to my Knight retool.

In regards to shield evasion I was thinking of a lesser and greater version wherein the greater version gives the Knight evasion as well.

one thing I am doing is giving the Knight more attacks of opportunities than normal spread out throughout the class im thinking every 3rd level? having those AoOs stop opponents from moving, casting a spell, and the like.

That is your perrogative, but mounted combat is very much a feature of medieval knights, and if you don't have them as default features, maybe include the stuff as bonus feat options? I for one believe Mounted Combat doesn't get enough love...

Also, how many additional AoEs are we thinking? That could get pretty crazy..

[Telonius]

One (really annoying) thing it's missing: the ability to take anything but Knight levels and not completely wreck your Test of Mettle DC. I'd change the DC to 10 plus half BAB plus charisma, instead of 10 plus half Knight level plus charisma.

Alternately, write up a multiclass feat for Knight/whatever that lets their levels stack for Test of Mettle DC and some feature of the other class.

[ngilop]

That is your perrogative, but mounted combat is very much a feature of medieval knights, and if you don't have them as default features, maybe include the stuff as bonus feat options? I for one believe Mounted Combat doesn't get enough love...

Also, how many additional AoEs are we thinking? That could get pretty crazy..


weird.. I thought I was talking about a game called Dungeon and Dragons specifically 3.5 revised edition... not real world historical accuracies wow all this time i was just saying a bunch of nonsense.. wellblow me away.

also again at some point i think it was the OP and post #22 where i distinctly say no mounted combat and /or say there is already a mounted combat class and am focusing the knight on being more of a battlefield protector. I just have no idea why in GiTP most people completely ignore what is said and just go on and keep talking about what they want regardless of the laid out parameters in a thread, its annoying to the extreme and frustrating. especially when you come for helpful advice and distinctly say No X and everybody just keeps saying "X, X, X, X, X, X, and X"

now on to the actual topic again. What would be a couple ( or 3-ish) out of combat abilities that would work good for a knight ( and i do no mean historical knight, but the idea of a guy in armor who is a sworn protector and has mastery of the battlefield)

[torrasque666]

also again at some point i think it was the OP and post #22 where i distinctly say no mounted combat and /or say there is already a mounted combat class and am focusing the knight on being more of a battlefield protector. I just have no idea why in GiTP most people completely ignore what is said and just go on and keep talking about what they want regardless of the laid out parameters in a thread, its annoying to the extreme and frustrating. especially when you come for helpful advice and distinctly say No X and everybody just keeps saying "X, X, X, X, X, X, and X"
Well yes, there is the cavalier in 3.5, but its a prestige class which requires some base ability at mounted combat to enter. Just saying.

[ben-zayb]

Hmm... maybe put the mount back in, but not as mounted combat, and not a free mount?

: A Knight and his mount fight in unison, and in many ways, are one creature. A mounted knight forms a sort of gestalt being with his mount, provided that it has an intelligence score of 2 or less. This has the following benefits while the knight is mounted:
At first level and beyond, when either the knight or the mount is attacked, the Knight can choose to use his own AC, or his mount's AC. Likewise, when either makes a save, the knight can choose to use his own save modifiers, or the mount's save modifiers.
At 5th level and beyond, when either the knight or the mount (but not both by the same effect) is affected by a hostile effect (be that damage from a sword, stoning from a Flesh to Stone spell, the damage from being in a swarm, or anything else), the Knight may choose whether the effect is dealt to the mount or the knight. This decision is made after the attack itself is resolved (so, for example, the knight can choose to redirect the results of a failed save vs. Flesh to Stone to he mount after the knight fails the save, but before it takes effect). Note that many effects that would affect the knight will not affect the mount, and vice-versa; these still apply. A dominate person targeted at the knight that is redirected to a heavy warhorse has no effect on the warhorse (because it is not a humanoid), and is effectively negated.
At 10th level and beyond, when both the knight and the mount are subject to a multiple target effect (be that an area effect or an effect that targets both the knight and the mount separately), both the knight and the mount roll any appropriate saves, and if either successfully saves, both are considered to have successfully saved.
At 15th level and beyond, the knight and the mount are considered to be one creature for area or multiple target harmful effects, and cannot be targeted separately (although the knight still gets to choose whether the knight or the mount takes the effect, if it is harmful). Additionally, both the knight and the mount may still attempt saves as applicable, and if either succeeds on the save, the save is considered successful for both.

Note that this ability does not grant the knight a mount; the knight must still obtain a mount by some means.

Need to work on the wording, but eh.

So say a 10th level Knight buys a heavy warhorse (30 HP, Int-2). Mounted, the knight then gets hit by a Dominate Person spell, and fails the Will save. He sends the effect to the horse, who isn't humanoid, so nothing happens. Recognizing the interaction, the same wizard follows up with an Empowered Scorching Ray, directed entirely at the horse... who gets to use the Knight's touch AC. Two rays hit, and (after the empower) the damage rolls are 24 and 18. The knight has the mount take the 24 damage, and takes 18 himself, as he doesn't want it to die yet. At this point, the knight reaches the caster, and stabs him to death.
That does have the problem of dipping Knight to effectively gestalt with Feebleminded-monster-X

[Dusk Raven]

weird.. I thought I was talking about a game called Dungeon and Dragons specifically 3.5 revised edition... not real world historical accuracies wow all this time i was just saying a bunch of nonsense.. wellblow me away.

also again at some point i think it was the OP and post #22 where i distinctly say no mounted combat and /or say there is already a mounted combat class and am focusing the knight on being more of a battlefield protector. I just have no idea why in GiTP most people completely ignore what is said and just go on and keep talking about what they want regardless of the laid out parameters in a thread, its annoying to the extreme and frustrating. especially when you come for helpful advice and distinctly say No X and everybody just keeps saying "X, X, X, X, X, X, and X"

Well, if you want to be snarky, than I thought we were discussing a class called the Knight, which is a specific, real-world term. Also, it would be nice, if you don't want any trace or even the possibility of Mounted Combat, you explain why you have such a problem with it. I mean, I am capable of not talking about it, but smart remarks don't help. On a side note, having the option (I am not saying a focus on Mounted Combat) would indeed make it stand out a little.

[Sacrieur]

He need maneuvers, really.

[Psyren]

I think that would fall under a supernatural effect, and the goal here is an entirely mundane knight. That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of buff to whatever the Knight happens to be riding - probably not on the level of an animal companion, since I don't think knights, or historical cavalry in general, got attached to particular mounts for obvious reasons, but I think Mounted Combat doesn't get enough love.

Nah, the Pathfinder Cavalier gets a scaling mount and it is entirely non-magical. The simple fact is that your mount needs to scale with you to have a prayer against higher-CR foes.

[Dusk Raven]

Nah, the Pathfinder Cavalier gets a scaling mount and it is entirely non-magical. The simple fact is that your mount needs to scale with you to have a prayer against higher-CR foes.

I agree completely, but "Special Mount" called to mind the Paladin's class feature, where the mount is, unsurprisingly, special. The Druid's and Ranger's companions also have a touch of the supernatural. But yeah, anyone dedicated to Mounted Combat is going to need some class features that scale...

[ILM]

My quick and dirty fix:
- 4 skill points
- vastly relaxed Knight's Challenge: needs a positive int score (i.e. not zero or -), no upper limit on target HD, no language requirement, keys off your HD and not class level. Lasts 1+Cha rounds, can be used unlimited times per day, and can affect the same target multiple times per day but each attempt after the first adds a cumulative +4 bonus to the target's save.
- choose 1: auras (as Marshal), special mount (as paladin), or full initiator level progression gaining a few maneuvers of the Devoted Spirit and White Raven schools.

[ComaVision]

now on to the actual topic again. What would be a couple ( or 3-ish) out of combat abilities that would work good for a knight ( and i do no mean historical knight, but the idea of a guy in armor who is a sworn protector and has mastery of the battlefield)

To me, the Knight is the designated shield-wielding protector class. In that vein, I agree that Lesser Shielded Evasion and Greater Shielded Evasion are a great idea (perhaps the lesser is Knight only and the greater is also adjacent allies). To pair with this, Shielded Reflexes should allow you to use your shield bonus to AC on Reflex saves.

Adding a bunch of shield related feats to the bonus feats list for the Knight would be great too, particularly if you're removing the mounted combat ones.

[Deadline]

To me, the Knight is the designated shield-wielding protector class. In that vein, I agree that Lesser Shielded Evasion and Greater Shielded Evasion are a great idea (perhaps the lesser is Knight only and the greater is also adjacent allies). To pair with this, Shielded Reflexes should allow you to use your shield bonus to AC on Reflex saves.

Adding a bunch of shield related feats to the bonus feats list for the Knight would be great too, particularly if you're removing the mounted combat ones.

Honestly, I don't see why you have to limit it to adjacent allies. Maybe give the Knight several defensive abilities that it can share out to allies within 30 ft. Have it be the defensive equivalent to the Bard.

[ComaVision]

Honestly, I don't see why you have to limit it to adjacent allies. Maybe give the Knight several defensive abilities that it can share out to allies within 30 ft. Have it be the defensive equivalent to the Bard.

The idea was that the abilities are shield based. Adjacent is a really low range though, I'm not sure how to widen that while staying true to my mental image of the knight.

Maybe you could add an ability similar to Travel Devotion but fueled by Knight's Challenge uses, except it's an immediate action move so you could get adjacent to allies to protect them from dragonbreath/fireball/etc. That's cool mechanics, imo.

[Jack_Simth]

That does have the problem of dipping Knight to effectively gestalt with Feebleminded-monster-X

On a 'dip', all you get is that you can use your or your mount's AC/saves, whichever is better, for yourself and your mount. You're going to have to pick whether you or your mount have the equipment, and, of course, you still need to train the beast as a mount somehow (it doesn't come with a 'use anything as a mount' option, after all, so you'll need some other method to give it the relevant general purpose training). Oh yes, and to have a reasonable chance to land the feeblemind... the save bonus of the critter has to be less optimized than the caster's save DC, so it's not really going to help you all that much.

[gadren]

If you're interested, in my tier 3 campaign I combined Knight, Marshal, and Cavalier into one class called the Knight Commander: https://sites.google.com/site/bardawilcampaignsite/core-classes/knight-commander