Could an optimized Barbarian kill a Moon Druid?

[Rajah]

Both optimized at level 20, Druid can only use spell slots to heal or buff. Nothing offensive, no debuffing or control.

Can a level 20 barbarian get through all those hit points before he dies himself? Or is it an impossible task?

[hymer]

There's often debate on exactly how wild shape functions. Can you go from one earth elemental form to a fresh earth elemental for with one bonus action? Can you shift from one form to another form than your caster form? Not everyone agrees on those things, and they will heavily affect the druid's damage sponge.
What sort of equipment are we talking about? And must the moon druid remain in place where the barbarian can attack them? Because mobility is one of the moon druid's strong points.

[EvilAnagram]

Sure. If he has access to feats he can be monstrously powerful, with damage resistance, solid AC, and massive damage bonuses. The Druid is going to be relying on putting off dying long enough to wear down the Barbarian.

[SharkForce]

probably not. a bonus action to generate hp makes it awfully hard to kill the druid, and that still leaves regular actions for attack.

if the barbarian doesn't have a magic weapon, it gets even worse as those hit point pools are effectively doubled. and, in some cases, the barbarian only even has the option to make a single reaction attack most likely (if the earth elemental pops in and out of the ground, for example).

[hymer]

probably not. a bonus action to generate hp makes it awfully hard to kill the druid, and that still leaves regular actions for attack.

if the barbarian doesn't have a magic weapon, it gets even worse as those hit point pools are effectively doubled. and, in some cases, the barbarian only even has the option to make a single reaction attack most likely (if the earth elemental pops in and out of the ground, for example).

Earth elementals have 10' reach to add to that thought. How does Mobility and Freedom of Movement interact with Sentinel?

[Rajah]

The barbarian had a +1 magical weapon to match the Druid. The fight takes place in a 50 foot by 50 foot room, but there is no getting out of the room. One leaves when the other is dead.

[SharkForce]

you must have a different definition of "match" than me.

the druid is not allowed to use their largest class feature meaningfully and has no items. to "match" that, we're giving the barbarian a magical weapon?

[Markoff Chainey]

I would think a party of barbarians would have a hard time by RAW

[TopCheese]

you must have a different definition of "match" than me.

the druid is not allowed to use their largest class feature meaningfully and has no items. to "match" that, we're giving the barbarian a magical weapon?

Pretty much the Batman v Superman debate.

Batman get a unlimited gadgets, prep time, and somehow way more durable than a typical human should be (he can go through concrete pillars without dying). He is also allowed to go all out... Whereas Superman isn't allowed gadgets (his anti-kryptonite suit), prep time (time absorbing yellow sunlight next to the sun), or go all out (or close to it).

The reason why is that if you really put them on the same playing field you have to admit the one you like isn't balanced or as good as another. There is a bigger gap between superman and Batman but the idea is the same. Right now Batman/Barbarians are more popular (from my experience over the past few editions barbarians are more popular than druids) but that doesn't mean they can actually stand up to Superman/Druids in a straight up fight.

I say a straight up fight because obviously you can make an unfair fight favors one or the other to such crazy proportions that the defender has no chance.

[AvatarVecna]

There's a few problems with a question like this: firstly, we have the obvious "the one that's more optimized than the other will always win because they're were made and played better", which is fair enough, but tells us nothing of the general chances; secondly we have the issue of counter-picking...that is to say, if one is built in a particular way, the other can be build to specifically counter that build; which one has more counter-counters is debatable (and I think the druid likely wins because of the versatility of Wild Shape and spells in regards to who has the most counter-builds), but once more that doesn't tell us the general chances. Different levels of magic items involved can make a difference, as can the tactics chosen.

But the question is not "who would win in a fight", it's "is the Druid's tanking ability better than the Barbarian's nova ability", and that's a far more testable question (which ultimately has little bearing on the first question, but the first question is not our concern here).

EDIT: While there's still a vague issue with counter-picking, perhaps some sample builds for each side (Defense Druid and Offense Barbarian) could be useful? It might also be good to test it at a few different levels of magic items that people can agree on (none, low, high, etc).

[EvilAnagram]

I would think a party of barbarians would have a hard time by RAW

A party of Barbarians would tear it apart! Provided that the Druid doesn't always pop out of his elemental form the moment before his turn starts. If you get a single round in which three Barbies can attack the Druid directly, you have a dead Druid.

Of course, in a fair fight in which both Barbie and Druid have an uncommon magic item and the Druid has full access to his spell list, it's a Drid victory. They both roll well because of Reckless Attack, the Barbie resists most damage, but the Druid has spells and claws alike, so he can slowly reduce the Barbie to 0, while the Barbie has no recourse.

In OP's original setting, I'd guess Barbie since the Druid won't be able to use spells.

[AvatarVecna]

A party of Barbarians would tear it apart! Provided that the Druid doesn't always pop out of his elemental form the moment before his turn starts. If you get a single round in which three Barbies can attack the Druid directly, you have a dead Druid.

Of course, in a fair fight in which both Barbie and Druid have an uncommon magic item and the Druid has full access to his spell list, it's a Drid victory. They both roll well because of Reckless Attack, the Barbie resists most damage, but the Druid has spells and claws alike, so he can slowly reduce the Barbie to 0, while the Barbie has no recourse.

In OP's original setting, I'd guess Barbie since the Druid won't be able to use spells.

In a 1v1 fight, it's going to come down to one thing: whether the Druid can bonus action wild shape while wild shaped. If they can't, Barbie has a chance; if they can, there's virtually no way for the barbarian to do enough damage in one round to ever deal damage to their regular form.

EDIT: At least, not without a lot of magic items...

[JumboWheat01]

A barbarian's Damage Reduction is for physical attacks, yes? A Moon Druid's Wild Shape attacks are considered magical after a certain level, aren't they? That'll bypass that damage reduction in no time.

[AvatarVecna]

A barbarian's Damage Reduction is for physical attacks, yes? A Moon Druid's Wild Shape attacks are considered magical after a certain level, aren't they? That'll bypass that damage reduction in no time.

Wrong: the resistance granted by rage is for physical damage, yes, but it says nothing about nonmagical, unlike just about every other source of such resistances. Thus, even though a Wild Shape'd druid counts their natural weapons as magical, that does not let them bypass the Barbarian's resistance to the damage type; furthermore, the Totem Barbarian lvl 3 Bear power extends that resistance to all damage except psychic, and I don't think Druids have any way of dealing psychic damage except maybe some high-level spells.

[AvatarVecna]

Back to back Earth Elementals is gonna be rough, even with magic items: the barbarian has to get at least 127 DPR against AC 17, not an easy task; without magic weapons, it's also got resistance, changing that number to 253 damage necessary to hurt the actual Druid form.

Assuming Str 24 and no magic items, the Half-Orc Barbarian (Berserker )20 is looking at advantage on attack rolls and 4 attacks per round; each attack has a +13 to hit, deals 1d12+11 on a hit, and deals 6d12+11 on a crit (with the potential -5 atk +10 dmg from GWM if that proves useful): overall, the Barbarian's damage per attack without magic items is 26.26875 before resistance (using GWM for the trade-off); after resistance, your DPR is about 52.5...nowhere near enough to hurt the druid's true form. So what happens if we add a bunch of magic items? Could it be done then?

Items
Belt of Storm Giant's Strength (legendary; attuned)
Potion of Growth (uncommon)
Potion of Heroism (rare)
Oil of Sharpness (very rare)
Ioun Stone of Mastery (legendary; attuned)
Vicious Greataxe (rare)


That's all for the barbarian; we're assuming the druid gets nothing. The point of this is to see if the barbarian even has a chance of damaging the Druid's true form if he has a pile of magic items to help out. With all of the above in play, the barbarian has 4 attacks at advantage: every attack is 1d20+1d4+9, deals 1d12+1d4+26 on a hit, and deals 6d12+2d4+33 on a crit. Taking that all into account, and that this is magic damage bypassing the Earth Elemental's resistances, the barbarian's DPR against the Earth Elemental averages out at...149.3172942 damage!

Ladies and gentlemen, even if the Druid can wild shape while Wild Shape'd, they can be damaged! However, it requires that the Barbarian have a pile of magic items, and that the druid attacks them every round, and even then, they can heal their base form before going back to wild shape...but eventually they'll run out of spell slots!

Yeah, a Druid that can infinitely wild shape while wild shaped is going to be very difficult to kill. At least for a Barbarian...and all the while the Druid will be fighting back.

[Vogonjeltz]

Both optimized at level 20, Druid can only use spell slots to heal or buff. Nothing offensive, no debuffing or control.

Can a level 20 barbarian get through all those hit points before he dies himself? Or is it an impossible task?

You could just calculate the average damage per round of the Barbarian and the Druid, determine how much the Barbarian is likely to exceed the Druid by once they burn through the Druid's hit points, and then see how many times that has to happen before the Druid dies.

Given that the druid is (at best) dealing half damage to the Barbarian, it seems quite likely.


There's often debate on exactly how wild shape functions. Can you go from one earth elemental form to a fresh earth elemental for with one bonus action? Can you shift from one form to another form than your caster form? Not everyone agrees on those things, and they will heavily affect the druid's damage sponge.
What sort of equipment are we talking about? And must the moon druid remain in place where the barbarian can attack them? Because mobility is one of the moon druid's strong points.

As written, no they can't. The evidence for this is extensive as the ability assumes there are two (boolean) states: Normal Form and Beast shape.
Bolded for emphasis.

1) PHB 66, Wild Shape: "use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast" (implicitly you are not in the shape of a beast)
2) PHB 66, Wild Shape: "You can stay in beast shape for a number of hours.... You then revent to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn." (implicitly you can not change the beast shape, it's a thing you turn on until it turns off.)
3) PHB 66, Wild Shape: "While you are transformed, the following rules apply:" (This indicates an active or inactive state, it is also explicitly stating that Wild Shape operates differently when it is on than when it is off.)
4) PHB 67, Wild Shape: "Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form." (implies there is only one form per activation of wild shape and that the form must be left to have a new one.)
5) PHB 67-68, Archdruid: "You gain this benefit in both your normal shape and your beast shape from Wild Shape" (again, implies a state of being, either on or off).
6) PHB 69, Combat Wild Shape: "while you are transformed by Wild Shape"
6) PHB 69, Primal Strike: "your attacks in beast form"


In addition, the Circle of the Moon class features are literally nonsense if you were to twist the meaning to allow changing to a different shape while in a shape (and consequently gaining the hit points of the 'new' form): "Additionally, while you are transformed by Wild Shape, you can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to regain 1d8 hit points per level of the spell slot expended."

5th Edition class abilities are written specifically to only say what they can do, there are no implicit powers. These could not be clearer expressions in english, you can transform into a beast shape, but nowhere does the ability allow you to use the power (while it is active) to assume another form or gain any benefit for having done so. Any assumption of such capability (without proof being provided) is an extreme and unwarranted overreach.

[SharkForce]

none of those passages imply that you cannot use wild shape again while wild shaped.

i can assume the shape of a beast while still in the shape of a beast, just as i can use alter self to assume the form of a human while being human (presumably the new human form will at least appear different).
the presence of a mechanic to revert to normal form does not imply the absence of a mechanic to assume a different form.
the presence of rules describing the situation while transformed do not imply an inability to transform again, particularly since those same rules tell us that you retain all class abilities... one of which is the ability to wild shape.
and so on.

certainly, there is room to argue either way; the rules are basically silent on the matter. but silence on the matter is not proof one way or the other that you can or can't do something. by default, you can use wildshape. nothing about having wild shape inherently rules out using wild shape again.

frankly, if the level 20 druid ability weren't there, i don't think it would really matter anyways.

[Deadandamnation]

Nope, the druid will fly and the Barb don't. So he can't imho.

[AvatarVecna]

You could just calculate the average damage per round of the Barbarian and the Druid, determine how much the Barbarian is likely to exceed the Druid by once they burn through the Druid's hit points, and then see how many times that has to happen before the Druid dies.

Given that the druid is (at best) dealing half damage to the Barbarian, it seems quite likely.

Sure, assuming you can't Wild Shape while Wild Shape'd...and I don't quite buy your "proof", for reasons I'll explain below. Before I get to your actual evidence, though, I'm going to point out this paragraph near the end of your post:


5th Edition class abilities are written specifically to only say what they can do, there are no implicit powers. These could not be clearer expressions in english, you can transform into a beast shape, but nowhere does the ability allow you to use the power (while it is active) to assume another form or gain any benefit for having done so. Any assumption of such capability (without proof being provided) is an extreme and unwarranted overreach.

I have added underlining and bolding for emphasis, but that is the only alteration I've made. So I shall follow your rules: no assumptions allowed, only what the text explicitly states is permissable for either side, understood.


1) PHB 66, Wild Shape: "use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast" (implicitly you are not in the shape of a beast)

I'm sorry, I thought we weren't supposed to make assumptions. Okay, so we make ONE assumption based on implicit (but not explicit) rules. That's fine. I mean, I don't see why being a beast means you can't turn into a beast, unless you're arguing that because there's no change in creature type, you're can't "become" a beast when you already are one, but that's a bit of stretch.


2) PHB 66, Wild Shape: "You can stay in beast shape for a number of hours.... You then revent to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn." (implicitly you can not change the beast shape, it's a thing you turn on until it turns off.)

TWO assumptions based on implied rules, got it. I've bolded and underlined a section to point out that expending uses of Wild Shape is explicitly legal here, although it implies that you can do so to maintain your current form. Nonetheless, it's one example of explicitly using Wild Shape while Wild Shape'd, meaning other uses might be valid as well.


3) PHB 66, Wild Shape: "While you are transformed, the following rules apply:" (This indicates an active or inactive state, it is also explicitly stating that Wild Shape operates differently when it is on than when it is off.)

THREE assumptions based on the implied rules, okay. But this means that we have to abide by those rules, as I've discussed below.


4) PHB 67, Wild Shape: "Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form." (implies there is only one form per activation of wild shape and that the form must be left to have a new one.)

FOUR assumptions based on the implied rules. Also, I don't see how "leave the form" implies you have to "leave the form" to your normal form. "Leaving the form" to take another beast form is just as valid a method of "leaving the form", so this is another example of shaky evidence.

[QUOTE=Vogonjeltz;20143527]5) PHB 67-68, Archdruid: "You gain this benefit in both your normal shape and your beast shape from Wild Shape" (again, implies a state of being, either on or off).

AMONG THE ASSUMPTIONS MADE...nevermind we'll just come in and do it again.


6) PHB 69, Combat Wild Shape: "while you are transformed by Wild Shape"
6) PHB 69, Primal Strike: "your attacks in beast form"

You know, I think I was a bit overly critical; really, this is all just a single massive assumption, rather than a bunch of little ones. Regardless, even if this is all inadmissable implicit assumption evidence (as you told us such evidence counts as), the fact remains that the volume suggests this could have been the designer's intention when writing the ability. Such a mountain of implicit evidence could, of course, be completely overturned by any explicit evidence allowing Wild Shape. For this, we can turn to the third point you brought up: there are existing restrictions placed on what rules apply while you're Wild Shape'd, which are presented under the Wild Shape class feature. Let's go see what rules apply while Wild Shape'd:


Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can't use them.

Alright, we gain the beast's statistics; while it doesn't explicitly say it, since it's not on the allowed list, I assume we lose the ability to Wild Shape, since that's a class feature, and class features aren't part of the "kept" list...unless maybe it's further down in the Wild Shape rules? Let's keep looking...


When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice. when you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as the excess damage doesn't reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren't knocked unconscious.

This does not have anything to do with whether you can or cannot use Wild Shape while Wild Shape'd. Moving on...


You can't cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn't break your concentration on a spell you've already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you've already cast.

This does not have anything to do with whether you can or cannot use Wild Shape while Wild Shape'd. Moving on...


You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.

...that looks pretty explicit to me. You explicitly still have access to the Wild Shape class feature, you can explicitly use Wild Shape to stay in your current form, and all the "evidence" that "proves" Wild Shape can't be used in Wild Shape is incredibly shaky and flawed implications at best.


In addition, the Circle of the Moon class features are literally nonsense if you were to twist the meaning to allow changing to a different shape while in a shape (and consequently gaining the hit points of the 'new' form): "Additionally, while you are transformed by Wild Shape, you can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to regain 1d8 hit points per level of the spell slot expended."

I don't see how that's pointless. I mean sure, you can either spend a bonus action burning spells to heal, or you can spend a bonus action to take a new form...but because taking a new form is a limited resource until 20th level, that "healing in beast form" class feature remains useful until 20th lvl.


5th Edition class abilities are written specifically to only say what they can do, there are no implicit powers. These could not be clearer expressions in english, you can transform into a beast shape, but nowhere does the ability allow you to use the power (while it is active) to assume another form or gain any benefit for having done so. Any assumption of such capability (without proof being provided) is an extreme and unwarranted overreach.

Indeed they are my friend, indeed they are. And there's explicit evidence saying that a Wild Shape'd Druid still has the Wild Shape class feature, and explicit evidence that there's at least one way to spend uses of Wild Shape while Wild Shape'd; as mentioned, the evidence gathered that suggests a separation between beast and normal form to the point that you can't Wild Shape in beast form is implicit, shaky, and circumstantial at best.

Not to say that's how I think it should work, but we're talking about how it does work, and that's how the RAW plays out. If you, as a DM, wish to read the implications as not allowing it, that's your call. Me, I'm playing in a game with a mid-level Moon Druid, and the ability to wild shape while Wild Shape'd is the only thing keeping her even vaguely relevant anymore now that we're past 6th lvl. She's gonna suck until she hits 10th lvl, and then briefly stop sucking before continuing to suck.

[AvatarVecna]

Nope, the druid will fly and the Barb don't. So he can't imho.

While that's certain true, it's more of a "who could win in a fight" answer rather than a "can the Druid 20's infinite damage sponge outweigh the Barbarian's DPR" answer. It's obvious that the Druid would win the fight, because the Druid is a full spellcaster and the Barbarian is not; what we wish to determine is the interaction between a supposedly unstoppable force and a theoretically immovable object.

[Rajah]

Yeah, sorry for any confusion. This is not a true fight. This is more to see if the Barbarian can actually kill the Druid. And my reading of the rules is that druids cannot jump from one form into another. They have to return to normal form first. For the purposes of this thread, that will be the rule, since I believe that is also RAW.

[Sigreid]

It depends really. In close quarters where the Druid can't get away from the barbarian, I think it'd be a good fight. That being said, I think eventually druids get to cast while wild shaped and a moon druid 20 can turn into an air elemental and simply stay out of reach and burn the barbarian down until he has to leave.

I may be wrong about that second one, but either way it really depends on who is most successful forcing the other to battle on their terms.

[SharkForce]

Yeah, sorry for any confusion. This is not a true fight. This is more to see if the Barbarian can actually kill the Druid. And my reading of the rules is that druids cannot jump from one form into another. They have to return to normal form first. For the purposes of this thread, that will be the rule, since I believe that is also RAW.

definitely not RAW. RAW is somewhat on the side of being able to wildshape while wildshaped (in that it is normally possible to wildshape, and nothing about being wildshaped explicitly prevents it) though i could see a DM ruling either way.

but quite frankly, i also suspect the only reason anyone wants to rule that you can't wildshape while wildshaped is the druid capstone + moon druid combo. well, plus the level 18 ability. honestly, i don't care how hard you are to kill if you aren't relevant offensively, and a wildshaped moon druid is not relevant offensively at high levels unless they can use spells.

this would mostly be fixed (among other problems with level 20 druids) if the druid capstone wasn't so ludicrously good in the hands of a moon druid. if you're looking to "fix" something, i would recommend that you rule that the druid capstone *only* applies to the base wildshape ability that all druids get, and not the enhanced version moon druids get. being able to turn into a bird so you can fly or a giant spider so you can climb is still a really good ability, but much less game-breaking for those who wish to play the game at level 20.

why would i recommend that fix? because moon druids needing to revert still leaves you with a ridiculous power imbalance between moon and land druids at level 20 (well, between moon druids and anything that isn't a moon druid at level 20 really), while allowing only the regular druid wild shape does not have that problem.

[AbyssStalker]

why would i recommend that fix? because moon druids needing to revert still leaves you with a ridiculous power imbalance between moon and land druids at level 20 (well, between moon druids and anything that isn't a moon druid at level 20 really), while allowing only the regular druid wild shape does not have that problem.

Maybe stop giving the HP of the new form after the 2nd wild shape? I don't know, I have no experience with a 20th level Moon Druid, just seems like a really disgusting form of cheesing to just let the Druid's Wild Shape work like an nigh-infinite HP meatbag.

[Markoff Chainey]

Imagine a Half-Orc Barbarian with a greataxe and a Moon Druid...

The druid could take on the form of any rare and delicous beast, the barbarians chops off the yummiest lumbs.. the druid transforms again..

That would be ethical, biological, rare, gourmet meat for free! They would make a million gp in the kitchen. ;-)

Fun aside, wildshape as it is written by RAW is stupid and the lvl 20 capstone makes it plain hilarious. Additionally, why has the Land druid got to deal with it? IMO he earns a decent capstone on his own. Our table houserules that a land druid is basically a nature-themed wizard, so he gets the lvl 18 and 20 wizard capstones instead.

[MaxWilson]

Both optimized at level 20, Druid can only use spell slots to heal or buff. Nothing offensive, no debuffing or control.

Can a level 20 barbarian get through all those hit points before he dies himself? Or is it an impossible task?

Probably not, especially if the Druid has Foresight up. But four level 20 Barbarians could chew through four level 20 Moon Druids pretty quick.


but quite frankly, i also suspect the only reason anyone wants to rule that you can't wildshape while wildshaped is the druid capstone + moon druid combo. well, plus the level 18 ability. honestly, i don't care how hard you are to kill if you aren't relevant offensively, and a wildshaped moon druid is not relevant offensively at high levels unless they can use spells.

I don't see how being able to grapple and restrain Gargantuan creatures can fail to be offensively (and defensively) relevant at high level.

[Markoff Chainey]

Back to back Earth Elementals is gonna be rough, even with magic items: the barbarian has to get at least 127 DPR against AC 17, not an easy task; without magic weapons, it's also got resistance, changing that number to 253 damage necessary to hurt the actual Druid form.

Assuming Str 24 and no magic items, the Half-Orc Barbarian (Berserker )20 is looking at advantage on attack rolls and 4 attacks per round; each attack has a +13 to hit, deals 1d12+11 on a hit, and deals 6d12+11 on a crit (with the potential -5 atk +10 dmg from GWM if that proves useful): overall, the Barbarian's damage per attack without magic items is 26.26875 before resistance (using GWM for the trade-off); after resistance, your DPR is about 52.5...nowhere near enough to hurt the druid's true form. So what happens if we add a bunch of magic items? Could it be done then?

Items

Belt of Storm Giant's Strength (legendary; attuned)
Potion of Growth (uncommon)
Potion of Heroism (rare)
Oil of Sharpness (very rare)
Ioun Stone of Mastery (legendary; attuned)
Vicious Greataxe (rare)


That's all for the barbarian; we're assuming the druid gets nothing. The point of this is to see if the barbarian even has a chance of damaging the Druid's true form if he has a pile of magic items to help out. With all of the above in play, the barbarian has 4 attacks at advantage: every attack is 1d20+1d4+9, deals 1d12+1d4+26 on a hit, and deals 6d12+2d4+33 on a crit. Taking that all into account, and that this is magic damage bypassing the Earth Elemental's resistances, the barbarian's DPR against the Earth Elemental averages out at...149.3172942 damage!

Ladies and gentlemen, even if the Druid can wild shape while Wild Shape'd, they can be damaged! However, it requires that the Barbarian have a pile of magic items, and that the druid attacks them every round, and even then, they can heal their base form before going back to wild shape...but eventually they'll run out of spell slots!

Yeah, a Druid that can infinitely wild shape while wild shaped is going to be very difficult to kill. At least for a Barbarian...and all the while the Druid will be fighting back.

I just looked up Kryx's DPR of classes document (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=655309186&vpid=A1)... under "RAW" you see that a lvl20 frenzied Barbarian with GWM and Polearm is supposed to do 82 points of damage / turn against AC 17 (weighing in average to-hit chance and critical chance and stuff like that). - That's before damage resistance! So one Barbarian is likely to deal 41 points of damage to an earth elemental per turn.


Look up the document, go to "Scaling", change the value of a lvl 20 opponent to AC 17, then look at the "RAW" sheet in the line where it reads "Barbarian frenzied, GWM, Polearm"

So with the assumption stated above of one +1 Weapon only... it takes 6 Barbarians to harm the druid and any less are going to die without even leaving a scratch.

[spartan_ah]

Isn't sage advice already confirmed that wild shape to wild shape is legit?


http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/16/wild-shape-in-wild-shape/


http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/15/wild-shape-to-wild-shape/

[AbyssStalker]

So with the assumption stated above of one +1 Weapon only... it takes 6 Barbarians to harm the druid and any less are going to die without even leaving a scratch.

Is that taking account for the possible wolf totem abilities? Those barbarians have advantage nearly 24/7 if 1 or 2 took the first wolf totem ability.

Ok, I had a more fun thought run through my head. Just the curiosity of how a battle would go between 3 fully optimized Totem (All with different totem abilities) Barbs, vs a Moon druid with Wild Shape in it's current form.

If the B team doesn't win, throw in a frenzy barb for good measure and do it again.

[JumboWheat01]

Fun aside, wildshape as it is written by RAW is stupid and the lvl 20 capstone makes it plain hilarious. Additionally, why has the Land druid got to deal with it? IMO he earns a decent capstone on his own. Our table houserules that a land druid is basically a nature-themed wizard, so he gets the lvl 18 and 20 wizard capstones instead.

Hey, the lv20 cap for Land Druids is AWESOME. Ignore Somatic, Verbal and Material components in spells? Sneak up and silently blast something. They don't know you're there because you don't have to make a noise or a movement. Ignore any expensive materials when casting your spells, simply do so. Grappled? Fry 'em without needing to move.

Or just standing there perfectly still, looking awesome while you summon the Storm of the Century.

I say the Land Druids have a perfectly deadly capstone.

[SharkForce]

I don't see how being able to grapple and restrain Gargantuan creatures can fail to be offensively (and defensively) relevant at high level.

well, it takes the place of all their damage iirc. not 100% sure, but i think grapple can be done as part of an attack action, and multiattack is not the attack action... so you maybe grapple one creature, and then that's it. you're done for the round. no damage. no further CC effects. that's how it is offensively irrelevant.

[QUOTE=AbyssStalker;20146193]Is that taking account for the possible wolf totem abilities? Those barbarians have advantage nearly 24/7 if 1 or 2 took the first wolf totem ability.QUOTE]

yes it is. barbarians already always have advantage on attacks. double advantage is not a thing, so it's already accounted for.

[hymer]

well, it takes the place of all their damage iirc. not 100% sure, but i think grapple can be done as part of an attack action, and multiattack is not the attack action... so you maybe grapple one creature, and then that's it. you're done for the round. no damage. no further CC effects. that's how it is offensively irrelevant.

Giant crocodiles grapple-restrain those they bite. Also, if you're grappled, you have to deal with that if it was done with a modicum of sense and teamwork.

[SharkForce]

Giant crocodiles grapple-restrain those they bite. Also, if you're grappled, you have to deal with that if it was done with a modicum of sense and teamwork.

giant crocodiles have pretty lousy AC for a level 20 front-liner, and you're going to lose that grapple by getting beaten senseless until you are no longer in crocodile form by any remotely threatening opponent in fairly short order because you don't have the resistance of elemental form. you also don't have a good attack bonus, so you're less likely to land that grapple in the first place, and your damage is still maybe half of what a fighter is, and i don't consider a typical fighter threatening enough to pull aggro on level 20 threats either, even though the fighter is definitely more dangerous than you by a significant margin.

also, that post was made in view of a revised druid capstone; you can't turn into a giant crocodile under the revised capstone i posted. it's still an amazing capstone; moon druids no longer have to use up wildshape to transport their party as a giant owl, or to climb up a cliff as a giant spider, etc. they can still use it after their combat wildshape uses are out for combat, and get a ~40 hp buffer that they can use while they freely cast spells thanks to their level 18 ability, possibly while flying or moving in and out of burrowing (though since your form is low HP and you revert when it runs out, it is recommended that you carefully consider what happens if you get knocked out of your form).

simply put, the druid capstone is still great for land druids, it just isn't a ridiculously overpowered ability that makes the druid danged near impossible to kill. it still provides a lot of utility and mobility for the druid and the party, it still provides bonus HP every fight, and it is still a useful tool, even for moon druids (who can afford to use wild shape for non-combat purposes now).

so, just make the capstone into one that is still very good, just not ridiculous. the ability to assume the form of any CR 1 beast (while retaining all class features including spellcasting) at-will is frankly a very good ability, regardless of which type of druid you are. i bet the sorcerer, monk, and bard would all *love* to have an ability that good at 20.

[hymer]

giant crocodiles have pretty lousy AC for a level 20 front-liner, and you're going to lose that grapple by getting beaten senseless until you are no longer in crocodile form by any remotely threatening opponent in fairly short order because you don't have the resistance of elemental form.

Investiture of Earth Stone gets you that same resistance if you want it. Anyway, getting attacked is exactly what you want to happen. Dealing damage to the moon druid's wild shape is not a goal in itself. It's not easy to deal over 85 damage in one round, especially if you're Restrained. The barbarian would be hard pressed to manage it, and so would a CR 20 ancient white dragon (less than 60 damage average if everything in the multiattack hits). Even knocking the druid out of form won't end the Grappled condition unless the DM rules it that way. And even if s/he did, you're liable to wind up in the same spot again next round or the following one, wasting another action on attacking endless wild shapes.


you also don't have a good attack bonus, so you're less likely to land that grapple in the first place, and your damage is still maybe half of what a fighter is, and i don't consider a typical fighter threatening enough to pull aggro on level 20 threats either, even though the fighter is definitely more dangerous than you by a significant margin.

The ancient white dragon has AC 20, so you'd hit that 45% of the time even without Advantage (or about 70% chance with Advantage). Sure, you could have better odds (like if you used your spells), but this is pretty far from being a last, desperate attempt. You'll get your jaws into that beastie sooner or later, if that's what you're aiming for. If it's the barbarian you'd have a harder time hitting probably; but the more you do, the barb will be that much harder pressed to get through your wild shape hp in a round, for having put ASIs into AC over damage.


also, that post was made in view of a revised druid capstone

I see. That was anything but clear to me, especially since you accepted the 'grapple + restrained' bit from MaxWilson.

[AvatarVecna]

I just looked up Kryx's DPR of classes document (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit#gid=655309186&vpid=A1)... under "RAW" you see that a lvl20 frenzied Barbarian with GWM and Polearm is supposed to do 82 points of damage / turn against AC 17 (weighing in average to-hit chance and critical chance and stuff like that). - That's before damage resistance! So one Barbarian is likely to deal 41 points of damage to an earth elemental per turn.


Look up the document, go to "Scaling", change the value of a lvl 20 opponent to AC 17, then look at the "RAW" sheet in the line where it reads "Barbarian frenzied, GWM, Polearm"

So with the assumption stated above of one +1 Weapon only... it takes 6 Barbarians to harm the druid and any less are going to die without even leaving a scratch.

And that number would be relevant to me if I was using a Polearm; in point of fact, I calculated as if the Barbarian was using a Greataxe...and it shows, because my DPR ended up being about 104 before resistance, while Krex used a Polearm and got 84 (and that was without magic). If we just give the barbarian a +1 Weapon...

Attack Bonus: +9 (Str 7+Proficiency 6+Magic 1-GWM 5)
Damage:1d12+22 (Base 1d12+Str 7+Rage 4+Magic 1+GWM 10)
Crit Damage: 6d12+22 (Base 2d12+Half Orc 1d12+Barbarian 3d12+Str 7+Rage 4+Magic 1+GWM 10)

Let's assume we're getting Advantage from Reckless Attack; this means that, when attacking a creature with 17 AC, we hit on a 8 or higher. If we were to make 400 attacks, we would miss 49 times, hit 312 times, and crit 39 times; misses deal 0 damage on average, hits deal 28.5 damage on average, and crits deal 61 damage on average. Thus, our average Damage Per Attack is 28.1775 (calculated using the formula below); at four attacks per round (2 regular+bonus action attack+reaction attack), that gives us ~113 Damage Per Round...which still isn't enough to stop a Druid that can Wild Shape while Wild Shape'd.


({# of Misses}x{Average Miss Damage})+({# of Hits}x{Average Hit Damage})+({# of Crits}x{Average Crit Damage})
{Total # of attacks}

(49x0)+(312x28.5)+(39x61)
400

0+8892+2379
400

11271
400

28.1775

[hymer]

@ AvatarVecna: Why How is the barbarian attacking four times per round?
Edit: Rather, how does he get a reaction attack?

[Desamir]

Sure. If he has access to feats he can be monstrously powerful, with damage resistance, solid AC, and massive damage bonuses. The Druid is going to be relying on putting off dying long enough to wear down the Barbarian.

The druid can switch forms every turn and refresh his hit point pool. I don't see the Barbarian ever touching the druid's actual hit points.

[EvilAnagram]

The druid can switch forms every turn and refresh his hit point pool. I don't see the Barbarian ever touching the druid's actual hit points.

If the Druid is allowed to shift from one form directly to the other, the Barbie has no chance. It will be an awfully slow fight though.

[N810]

How would a lvl 20 half ork Berserker work out, with his 4 d12 crits and all ? :thog:
(reckless attacks makes crits a 1 in 10 chance)
(there is a very small chance of rolling all crits in one round, for a crazy nova of damage before the druid can shift into another form)

Ps. don't forget Retaliation* (every time he gets hit I melee, he gets to hit back)

[Desamir]

As written, no they can't. The evidence for this is extensive as the ability assumes there are two (boolean) states: Normal Form and Beast shape.

<snip>

None of these examples imply or state that you can't transform from one beast to another.


In addition, the Circle of the Moon class features are literally nonsense if you were to twist the meaning to allow changing to a different shape while in a shape (and consequently gaining the hit points of the 'new' form): "Additionally, while you are transformed by Wild Shape, you can use a bonus action to expend one spell slot to regain 1d8 hit points per level of the spell slot expended."

This is still perfectly usable for the 18 levels before you get unlimited wild shape.


5th Edition class abilities are written specifically to only say what they can do, there are no implicit powers. These could not be clearer expressions in english, you can transform into a beast shape, but nowhere does the ability allow you to use the power (while it is active) to assume another form or gain any benefit for having done so. Any assumption of such capability (without proof being provided) is an extreme and unwarranted overreach.

The class ability says you can use an action/bonus action to transform into an beast, therefore you can do so. There is no language to suggest that you can only do that while in humanoid form. If that were the intent, it would say "if you are in your normal form, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast" or "you can't wild shape while you are already wild shaped."

[SharkForce]

misread the grapple + restrain (didn't notice the restrain), was thinking he was just using a larger form to do a regular grapple.

and it is still a single-target attack, which means all the minions are free to go wherever they want. i'm also unclear as to why the dragon is even in range for the crocodile to grapple it at all. it can fly much faster than the crocodile can move, it has longer reach than the crocodile's bite on all of it's attacks, it can even fly as part of a legendary action, and it has no compelling reason to be sitting right next to the crocodile in reach of an attack unless someone else already CC'd it. even then, it has a variety of AoE abilities it might use to disrupt your form without actually fighting you exclusively. and frankly, that sort of scenario is going to be mostly true for any important single target high CR creature. they tend to be able to teleport, or to easily stay out of melee range, and so on. and even those creatures will tend to have minions around, so you're still only controlling a single target out of many, if you even manage to control anything at all with your predictable short-range attack. i suppose if you manage to find the perfect target to grapple, it might work out for you and you'll get probably a single round of control (the DC is not very high for what is probably an extremely strong enemy to escape). certainly not nothing, but since that's probably all you're going to get out of the form for the entire fight (at least offensively against important targets), not exactly compelling.

pure melee fighters can have a hard time against such enemies when they deal twice as much (or more) damage at-will (much more when they want to nova) and frequently offer similar amounts of control. you think they're gonna worry about the crocodile with less damage, less chance of hitting, and less chance of even making an attack in the first place?

[hymer]

How would a lvl 20 half ork Berserker work out, with his 4 d12 crits and all ? :thog:
(reckless attacks makes crits a 1 in 10 chance)
(there is a very small chance of rolling all crits in one round, for a crazy nova of damage before the druid can shift into another form)

If we assume 10% crit chance, the chance of rolling two crits in a row is 1%. Three in a row is .1%, or one perfect round out of a thousand. It would be a long fight, but I don't think it'd be long enough to hope for this. :smallsmile: To add to that, it may well be that all the barb's advantage does is get rid of disadvantage, meaning the numbers are far worse (0.025% chance of double crit, and a minuscule 0.00125% chance of triple crit). Even if you do crit three times in a round, you get on average 60hp extra out of it. Not enough to go through the druid's base hp at level 20 (103 before con modifier).
The extra swinginess would be to the barb's advantage in this experiment, though. What counts is the amount of rounds he manages to deal more damage than the wild shape has hp, and whether these can happen enough times before the barb runs out of hit points and Relentless Rage saves become too high.

[Deadandamnation]

Yeah, sorry for any confusion. This is not a true fight. This is more to see if the Barbarian can actually kill the Druid. And my reading of the rules is that druids cannot jump from one form into another. They have to return to normal form first. For the purposes of this thread, that will be the rule, since I believe that is also RAW.

I think that theoretically anything is possible, The Barbarian have to kill the Druid in one turn but that's a thing that once in a while can happen.

[N810]

hmmm.............

wait.. what's canceling his advantage ?

... hmmm my math's say it's a possible maximum of 171 damage (triple crits [4d12 each] and rolling all 12's)
and I'm probably missing some bonus's....

[AvatarVecna]

@ AvatarVecna: Why How is the barbarian attacking four times per round?
Edit: Rather, how does he get a reaction attack?

Berserker Barbarians can attack someone as a reaction if that person attacked them; presumably, the druid is not just standing there letting a barbarian hit him over and over again for no reason. Bonus action attack comes from the Berserker 3 ability, and Barbarian gets two attacks with a normal action.


How would a lvl 20 half ork Berserker work out, with his 4 d12 crits and all ? :thog:
(reckless attacks makes crits a 1 in 10 chance)
(there is a very small chance of rolling all crits in one round, for a crazy nova of damage before the druid can shift into another form)

Ps. don't forget Retaliation* (every time he gets hit I melee, he gets to hit back)

That's what I was calculating (Half-Orc Barbarian Berserker 20 w/ a Greataxe). It's good, but the average DPR with a Greataxe +1 is about 113 against an Earth Elemental, and you need more than that to touch the Druid's true form (not too much more, so a bit of luck could let you kill them).I'm off to calculate what BS Barbarian 2/Fighter (Champion) 18 could get with a +1 Greatsword...

[hymer]

and it is still a single-target attack, which means all the minions are free to go wherever they want. i'm also unclear as to why the dragon is even in range for the crocodile to grapple it at all. it can fly much faster than the crocodile can move, it has longer reach than the crocodile's bite on all of it's attacks, it can even fly as part of a legendary action, and it has no compelling reason to be sitting right next to the crocodile in reach of an attack unless someone else already CC'd it.

Since we seem to have abandoned the 50' room and all that: You can literally decide to follow this strategy on a whim (a bonus action to pick your wild shape for the round, you might as well refresh every round), you'd only be doing this if it made sense in the situation. If there is literally no chance of getting into melee with the dragon, you'd do one of the many, many other things you have as an option. But if the dragon is as unafraid of you as you indicate, why would it take pains to manoeuvre away from you? The more it avoids you, the harder it is to avoid your friends.


even then, it has a variety of AoE abilities it might use to disrupt your form without actually fighting you exclusively. and frankly, that sort of scenario is going to be mostly true for any important single target high CR creature.

Since you can move around it without provoking OAs, you'd obviously move so it could breathe on you or your friends, but not both. And having it pinned to you means your friends can manoeuvre better in relation to it. That should mean getting more than 15' away is trivial, and that so is spreading out so the cone of the breath weapon can't catch so many.


they tend to be able to teleport, or to easily stay out of melee range, and so on.

Sucks to be melee, huh? Good thing that's just one part of your moon druid arsenal. But it has to get into melee sometime, unless it's content to spend turns not attacking.


and even those creatures will tend to have minions around, so you're still only controlling a single target out of many, if you even manage to control anything at all with your predictable short-range attack.

If they can get past a huge croc, those minions would be just as able to bypass any other tank your party has.


i suppose if you manage to find the perfect target to grapple, it might work out for you

If the perfect target presents itself - and even dragons (and DMs) make mistakes - you're always ready to take advantage, as noted above.


and you'll get probably a single round of control (the DC is not very high for what is probably an extremely strong enemy to escape).

It wasted its action ungrappling, perfect!


certainly not nothing, but since that's probably all you're going to get out of the form for the entire fight (at least offensively against important targets), not exactly compelling.

'Form'? You mean 'bonus action'? If you lock down and damage the most important enemy combatant using none of your resources save time, you've probably done your bit in that fight. And you're all the more ready for the next.


pure melee fighters can have a hard time against such enemies when they deal twice as much (or more) damage at-will (much more when they want to nova) and frequently offer similar amounts of control.

Nova is besides the point. If the moon druid novas, s/he's casting spells, not using wild shape. I don't see what you're aiming at in the control department I bolded, there. Particularly when we consider the non-expenditure of resources. Examples?


you think they're gonna worry about the crocodile with less damage, less chance of hitting, and less chance of even making an attack in the first place?

Once you lock your jaws on them, you have their attention. They can use their time attacking your (nearly) endless supply of wild shape hit points, or they can (try to) break free. Either is fine, you come out on top in either case. That you're dealing damage to them is incidental at this point.

I don't think anyone is claiming that this is what the moon druid should be doing all the time. But as melee tanks go, this is one of the options that's difficult to ignore. And just being able to grapple any size of being can be a huge deal, if you'll pardon the lame pun.


Berserker Barbarians can attack someone as a reaction if that person attacked them; presumably, the druid is not just standing there letting a barbarian hit him over and over again for no reason.

I see, thanks! It's not a given, though. The moon druid has to hit for that reaction attack to happen.


Ps. don't forget Retaliation* (every time he gets hit I melee, he gets to hit back)

Thanks, I'd forgotten about that! It's only once per round, though.


wait.. what's canceling his advantage ?

There could be several reasons, I'm sure. The obvious one, however, is the spell Foresight. The druid was allowed to buff with his spells, so Foresight is a possibility.


... hmmm my math's say it's a possible maximum of 171 damage (triple crits [4d12 each] and rolling all 12's)
and I'm probably missing some bonus's....

:smallbiggrin: Yes, we're getting further and further down in the probabilities, here. Less than one in 20k times you roll 4d12 do you come up four 12s. And you're talking about doing that three times. We've long since passed south of a million-to-one chance here, even before we factor in the chance of critting three times. C3PO would be appalled! :smallwink:

[KorvinStarmast]

The moral of this story appears to be: don't mess with Mother Nature (which is the entity who Moon Druids ostensibly serve).

If a barbarian is able to inflict various conditions on the Druid, things get more interesting.

Can the Barbarian render the Druid:

Paralyzed
Poisoned
Restrained
Stunned
Incapacitated
Unconscious

If so, this would accelerate the damage being done and being rolled over to the Druid.

On the other hand, the acme of skill is to defeat the opponent without fighting. The Druid may be able to bore the barbarian to death by simply turning into a flying creature and flying about, just beyond his range.

[AvatarVecna]

Attack: +7 (Str 5+Proficiency 6+Magic 1-GWM 5)
Damage: 2d6+18 (Base 2d6+Str 5+Rage 2+Magic 1+GWM 10)
Crit Damage: 5d6+18 (Base 4d6+Half Orc 1d6+Str 5+Rage 2+Magic 1+GWM 10)
Crit Range: 18-20

Advantage from Reckless Attack. Using your action surges (one per round), you get six attacks, and a 7th attack if you get a crit; with six attacks, advantage, and critting on 18-20, that's about an 85% chance or so, so let's assume you get that 7th attack. Your first two rounds (each with an action surge) see you getting 171 DPR, dealing about 45 damage to the druid's true form each turn. If you get lucky in those two turns, you might deal more (even a lot more), but without your actions surges...things gets hard.

[hymer]

Attack: +7 (Str 5+Proficiency 6+Magic 1-GWM 5)
Damage: 2d6+18 (Base 2d6+Str 5+Rage 2+Magic 1+GWM 10)
Crit Damage: 5d6+18 (Base 4d6+Half Orc 1d6+Str 5+Rage 2+Magic 1+GWM 10)
Crit Range: 18-20

Advantage from Reckless Attack. Using your action surges (one per round), you get six attacks, and a 7th attack if you get a crit; with six attacks, advantage, and critting on 18-20, that's about an 85% chance or so, so let's assume you get that 7th attack. Your first two rounds (each with an action surge) see you getting 171 DPR, dealing about 45 damage to the druid's true form each turn. If you get lucky in those two turns, you might deal more (even a lot more), but without your actions surges...things gets hard.

Yep, does much better. Still, the moon druid can cast healing spells with actions (2 Heal spells at 90 70 hp each, say, more if willing to burn higher level spell slots) and wild shape with bonus actions... And may find ways to get you to end your rage.

[JumboWheat01]

On the other hand, the acme of skill is to defeat the opponent without fighting. The Druid may be able to bore the barbarian to death by simply turning into a flying creature and flying about, just beyond his range.

Or drive the barbarian into such a horrendous fit of rage that causes him to uncontrollably rip a piece of the arena off and throw it at that annoying bird.

[Jpall]

First, before I start, let me say this is all based on the Druid being a Mammoth, and the Barb having a +1 weapon and using Reckless Attacks every time. I will happily redo all the math if someone wants to see what it will be like against a different Wild shape.

I think the Barb would stand the best chance going Totem path, getting his strength to only 18 (prior to level 20, so when he hits 20 he will suddenly have 22 strength) and saving his ASI's for 2 Con increases (dat sweet armor and health) which will give him 24 Con at level 20. Not really important at 20, but it gives him a lot of health along the way. An average of 233 actually. The Barb should also use a Polearm instead of an axe. There isn't a huge difference DPR wise, and with a Polearm you can pick up Polearm Mastery. This is good for two reason; You get a bonus attack that gives you your strength modifier and you can now hit the Druid when he comes into your reach.

Next, the Barb should pick up Mage Slayer OR Tough. I'll cover that in a minute.

Finally, the Barb should pick up Sentinel and save his AoO's to keep that Druid locked in place. The less he can move the better. This works well with Mage Slayer because BOTH are an AoO, so no matter what the Druid does (excluding standing in front of you not moving) he'll get hit with an AoO and not be able to escape. I'll cover more of this soon.

That's six ASI's, so you should start as a Human Variant if possible. +2 str > extra damage die on a crit. It works out to be approximately ~1.9688 damage difference in favor of the Str increase. This is using D10's. If you decided to stick to a D12 Great Axe and not use a Polearm while still being a human with 22 Str, your DPR is ~11.6438 less than the Polearm build. If you decide to go Half-Orc instead of Human and use a Great Axe, your DPR is ~12.5663 less than a Human Variant using a Polearm with 22 Str. Per turn. That adds up quickly. 3d10+3d10+3d4+((Rage damage + Modifier)*3) > 4d12+4d12+((Rage damage + Modifier)*2), regardless of 20 Str or 22 Str.


A Human Variant Totem Barb at level 20 with 22 Str, 14 Dex, 24 con and Polearm Mastery fighting against a Mammoth (13 AC, 126 HP) will do an average of ~53.7713 damage using both attacks and a bonus attack (from Polearm Mastery). Including the AoO the Druid will likely proc, it increases to ~73.4475. The hit chance for the Barb is 99.75%, his AC is 19, and he has resistance to almost everything (if you went Bear at level 3, and I'd recommend it). The Barb will reduce the Mammoth down to 0 hit points in 3 rounds, on AVERAGE. I'd say 4 is much more likely. The remaining damage will spill over onto the Druid.

The biggest thing the Barb has to worry about is managing his AoO's. If the Druid attempts to leave and you hit him, he can still use his healing spells freely without provoking an attack. Your only hope there is hoping his health is low enough that he can't risk the AoO before healing, and then you hit him anyways when he does go to heal. If you aren't fond of this path, take Tough instead for 40 more HP and survivability.

If Mage Slayer works with Shape Shift (99% sure it doesn't, as its not a spell really) then the Druid really stands no chance. To be honest, it may be better to take Tough or even another Str increase (that would add another ~3.285 average damage per round) in case the Druid player is smart enough to abuse your action economy and then leave your area of threat before it's too late.

This will obviously be a long fight, but I'm pretty sure the Barb could win with the proper set up. They're just going to have to whittle the Druid away little by little.


Average DPR of the Mammoth Druid will be 14.3175. It would take 20 rounds for the Mammoth to reduce the Barb to 0 health. His hit chance is 84% because of Reckless Attacks.



I'm probably missing something because I'm doing this at work so please be sure to question me or point out any inaccuracies.


Also, a straight Barb is not the most optimal choice to defeating a druid. A Fighter17/Barb3 will hit much harder and more frequently.

EDIT: My numbers are off by ~1 for some of these because I forgot to add the Magical Weapon bonus to the 1d4 attacks for the Polearm.

[SharkForce]

[lot of stuff]

the dragon doesn't need to move into the crocodile's bite range ever. it has 10 foot reach and can fly. the crocodile has 5' reach on a bite (10 on the tail, but the tail doesn't grapple or restrain) and cannot fly.

any time you stop using your form because you've gotten as much as you're ever likely to get from it (ie that one round of CC - not awful, but not exactly a game-breaking problem, especially if, as noted, we're discussing things *other* than level 20 druids with infinite wild shape, which is the only scenario i pointed out as being the reason people care about nerfing wild shape in the first place), the offensive power is not coming from wild shape anyways (it's coming from being a druid, which, unsurprisingly, is something that land druids can do also).

the dragon doesn't do anything weird or unusual to avoid the crocodile. it just flies (which it wants to do anyways) and stays beyond reach while being fully within reach to hit whatever it wants (which it wants to do anyways). you'll get a tail attack on it, at which point you're probably down to 1/4 of what a fighter at that level would do.

and while 1 round of CC is not nothing, it is also not something to get particularly excited about from using your action. again, assuming you ever get it in the first place, because you probably can't reach the dragon to begin with.

now yes, you can use your spells, but at that point, you're not exactly using your wild shape anyways most of the time since your spells have range.

[theMycon]

Both optimized at level 20, Druid can only use spell slots to heal or buff. Nothing offensive, no debuffing or control.

Can a level 20 barbarian get through all those hit points before he dies himself? Or is it an impossible task?

There is not sufficient information as to answer this question as stated.

If the only action the druid is allowed to take is to cast a spell to heal or buff, the barbarian will probably win eventually. If you're using crit fumble rules, there's a chance he'll kill himself before be burns through all those hp/spells, though.

If the Druid is also allowed to move and/or wildshape, but still do nothing offensive, the only way one or the other of them will die is natural causes. Whoever has eaten most recently/can counter fatigue better will be the victor, and the druid has the obvious advantage there.

If the Druid is allowed to do anything except using spells "offensively"... of course he'll win. His chances are about as good as the Barbarian in the first "stupidly literal interpretation" scenario. He can burrow as an elemental with 10' reach, punch from underground and retreat. He can fly, whirlwind without entering melee, and fly back & wait while it recharges. He can summon a horse, kite from corner to corner, and just eat some snacks between taking potshots with a bow. Yeah, there are counters to all of these, but the barbarian has a limited number of tricks up his sleeve, and the druid doesn't. Either might win in a "fair" stand there and punch each other fight, but the druid has no need to take that risk.

C'mon, the druid STILL wins if the barb can attack and the druid can't do anything offensive. You're not going to find non-ridiculous restrictions that make this fight fair.

[Jpall]

Attack: +7 (Str 5+Proficiency 6+Magic 1-GWM 5)
Damage: 2d6+18 (Base 2d6+Str 5+Rage 2+Magic 1+GWM 10)
Crit Damage: 5d6+18 (Base 4d6+Half Orc 1d6+Str 5+Rage 2+Magic 1+GWM 10)
Crit Range: 18-20

Advantage from Reckless Attack. Using your action surges (one per round), you get six attacks, and a 7th attack if you get a crit; with six attacks, advantage, and critting on 18-20, that's about an 85% chance or so, so let's assume you get that 7th attack. Your first two rounds (each with an action surge) see you getting 171 DPR, dealing about 45 damage to the druid's true form each turn. If you get lucky in those two turns, you might deal more (even a lot more), but without your actions surges...things gets hard.

I would go Polearm over Great Axe for reasons outlined above. And I would instead go Fighter17/Barb3 because the resistance is much more important than 10 health per round. Going Polearm and picking up Polearm Mastery will net you ~172 damage while still having resistance to most things. This was calculated against an enemy with 25 AC. Add the 8th attack and the damage is now ~183.138, which seems absolutely ridiculous so I'd love for someone to double check that.

With that build...
To Hit is +7
Damage is 1d10+18 for 6 attacks (7 if there is a crit) + 1d4+18 (5 str, 2 rage, 1 magical weapon, 10 GWM)
Crit damage is 4d10+18 and/or 4d4+18
Crit chance is 27.75% (18-20 crit range) with Reckless Attacks.

Polearms with Polearm Mastery is just a superior build in terms of damage compared to a Greataxe. The bonus attack is really good.

Edit: The reason that bonus attack is so good is because you don't need a crit to get it. It's just always available, and with a flat +18 to damage and such a high hit chance it's crazy not to go for it. Those calculations are against a character with 25 AC. That's nuts. That's Tarrasque level AC.

Edit #2: This is also all assuming the Druid does not use Foresight and does not cast any spells that target the Barbs Int/Wis. That could be a huge game changer.

[hymer]

@ SharkForce: I doubt anyone else bothers to read this back and forth, and you and I aren't likely to reach any sort of agreement. :smallsmile: My energy is officially spent as far as this subject is concerned.

[Desamir]

This will obviously be a long fight, but I'm pretty sure the Barb could win with the proper set up. They're just going to have to whittle the Druid away little by little.

Average DPR of the Mammoth Druid will be 14.3175. It would take 20 rounds for the Mammoth to reduce the Barb to 0 health. His hit chance is 84% because of Reckless Attacks.

I'm probably missing something because I'm doing this at work so please be sure to question me or point out any inaccuracies.

One major wrinkle: the moon druid can wild shape every turn as a bonus action and refresh all his beast form's hit points. Whittling is out of the question, you either have to one-shot him, or stun him repeatedly.

The druid is more likely to go Earth Elemental than Mammoth, though that doesn't change much.

The only martial class I could see beating a 20th level Moon Druid in a 1v1 would be a 20th level Open Hand Monk.

[AvatarVecna]

I would go Polearm over Great Axe for reasons outlined above. And I would instead go Fighter17/Barb3 because the resistance is much more important than 10 health per round.I see your point about Fighter 17/Barbarian 3 (although the resistances are only useful if the Druid starts using non-natural attacks), but I was also only doing that as a show of how ridiculous the Druid is. It still doesn't change that the question asked was about Barbarian 20.


Going Polearm and picking up Polearm Mastery will net you ~172 damage while still having resistance to most things. This was calculated against an enemy with 25 AC. Add the 8th attack and the damage is now ~183.138, which seems absolutely ridiculous so I'd love for someone to double check that.

Sure, I'll check your math. If nothing else, I wasn't seeing those numbers when I was attacking a lower AC, so I'm not seeing how you're reaching it fighting a higher one.


With that build...
To Hit is +7
Damage is 1d10+18 for 6 attacks (7 if there is a crit) + 1d4+18 (5 str, 2 rage, 1 magical weapon, 10 GWM)
Crit damage is 4d10+18 and/or 4d4+18
Crit chance is 27.75% (18-20 crit range) with Reckless Attacks.

I'm not seeing how you're getting a 4d10 crit, and since crits are such a big part of your DPR, that might be why your numbers seem as high as they are...at least one of the reasons.


Polearms with Polearm Mastery is just a superior build in terms of damage compared to a Greataxe. The bonus attack is really good.

Edit: The reason that bonus attack is so good is because you don't need a crit to get it. It's just always available, and with a flat +18 to damage and such a high hit chance it's crazy not to go for it. Those calculations are against a character with 25 AC. That's nuts. That's Tarrasque level AC.

Ignoring the fact that your bonus attack is a d4 instead of a d10 or d12 or 2d6 (the difference getting even bigger on crits), the odds of getting a crit are quite high on a build with 18-20 crits and advantage. Beyond that, Frenzy gets a bonus action attack as well guaranteed (although my particular build didn't have that, my new one will).


Edit #2: This is also all assuming the Druid does not use Foresight and does not cast any spells that target the Barbs Int/Wis. That could be a huge game changer.

As has been stated multiple times. If the Druid is actually using their spells well, the Barbarian is ****ed even without bringing Wild Shape into it.


With that build...
To Hit is +7
Damage is 1d10+18 for 6 attacks (7 if there is a crit) + 1d4+18 (5 str, 2 rage, 1 magical weapon, 10 GWM)
Crit damage is 3d10+18 and/or 3d4+18
Crit chance is 27.75% (18-20 crit range) with Reckless Attacks.

Assuming you're a Half-Orc, your crit damage should be 3d10+18/3d4+18, not 4dX. I'll use a similar build focused on using a Greataxe for comparison. Two Half-Orc Fighter (Champion) 17/Barbarian 3 enter, one leaves!


With my build...
To Hit is +7
Damage is 1d12+18 for 7 attacks
Crit damage is 3d12+18
Crit chance is 27.75% (18-20 crit range) with Reckless Attacks.

Your DPR (Polearm): 159.4953895
Against AC 17 (the AC of the Earth Elemental), assume you make 400 attacks; 111 will be crits, 81 will be misses, and 208 will be hits; taking this into account, and assuming you have the Great Weapon fighting style, the Average Damage Per Attack is 22.87575 damage. You get three attacks per action and a bonus action attack; if any of your regular attacks was a crit, then the bonus action attack deals 1d10+18 damage on a hit; if not, you resort to the other end of the polearm, which will deal 1d4+18 instead. Assuming you use your Action Surge, you'll get 6 regular attacks; with advantage and crits on 18-20, this means you have a ~85.7758% chance of getting at least a single crit to fuel your d10 bonus action attack; taking that into account as well as accuracy, your bonus action attack deals an average of 22.24088948 damage. Thus, each round you use an action surge, your average DPR is 159.4953895; not too shabby.

My DPR (Greataxe): 169.9133333
Against AC 17 (the AC of the Earth Elemental), assume I make 400 attacks; 111 will be crits, 81 will be misses, and 208 will be hits; taking this into account, and assuming you have the Great Weapon fighting style, the Average Damage Per Attack is 24.27333333 damage. I get three attacks per action and a bonus action attack; if any of my regular attacks was a crit, then the bonus action attack deals 1d12+18 damage on a hit; if not, I'll use Frenzy to get my bonus action attack and still deal 1d12+18. Assuming I use my Action Surge, I'll get 6 regular attacks; with advantage and crits on 18-20, this means I have a ~85.7758% chance of getting at least a single crit; taking that into account as well as accuracy, my bonus action attack deals an average of 24.27333333 damage. Thus, each round I use an action surge, my average DPR is 169.9133333; not too shabby.

It's also worth noting that, if I were going Fighter 17/Barbarian 3, I would use a Greatsword in stead of a Greataxe. Even so, Greataxe has better DPR.

Regardless, I agree with you that the Polearm is the better choice...I just dispute that it's the better choice because of DPR. It has worse DPR, but it makes your lockdown more solid, although still not perfect: if the druid casts a spell that gets disrupted by Mage Slayer, you've used your reaction stopping their spell and they can leave your threatened area without provoking (since you have no more reactions).

[Jpall]

You are correct, it all the 4dX should all be 3dX! Idk how I missed that so that's definitely a big part of it.

I'll have to get back to you on the rest though once my son stops watching Peppa Pig on the laptop lol.

I have all the equations on a spreadsheet and now I'm questioning if I have them right because a few extra D10's shouldn't make that huge of a difference.

[georgie_leech]

Imagine a Half-Orc Barbarian with a greataxe and a Moon Druid...

The druid could take on the form of any rare and delicous beast, the barbarians chops off the yummiest lumbs.. the druid transforms again..

That would be ethical, biological, rare, gourmet meat for free! They would make a million gp in the kitchen. ;-)

Fun aside, wildshape as it is written by RAW is stupid and the lvl 20 capstone makes it plain hilarious. Additionally, why has the Land druid got to deal with it? IMO he earns a decent capstone on his own. Our table houserules that a land druid is basically a nature-themed wizard, so he gets the lvl 18 and 20 wizard capstones instead.

This seems an excuse to mention that there's more to the Druid Capstone than unlimited wildshape. You also get the advantage of being able to ignore all spell components except for expensive Material components, in both regular and beast form. Aside from being extremely fluffy (causing flowers to bloom as they walk, the weather darkening to suit their mood, etc.), it's also useful on the macro level, as you can do things like wildshape into an eagle, fly high into the sky, and cast Storm of Vengeance or something from far outside of any possible retaliation range without needing to worry about needing to use their wings (that are really needed for flying) to provide somatic components.

[Vogonjeltz]

none of those passages imply that you cannot use wild shape again while wild shaped.

i can assume the shape of a beast while still in the shape of a beast, just as i can use alter self to assume the form of a human while being human (presumably the new human form will at least appear different).
the presence of a mechanic to revert to normal form does not imply the absence of a mechanic to assume a different form.
the presence of rules describing the situation while transformed do not imply an inability to transform again, particularly since those same rules tell us that you retain all class abilities... one of which is the ability to wild shape.
and so on.

certainly, there is room to argue either way; the rules are basically silent on the matter. but silence on the matter is not proof one way or the other that you can or can't do something. by default, you can use wildshape. nothing about having wild shape inherently rules out using wild shape again.

frankly, if the level 20 druid ability weren't there, i don't think it would really matter anyways.

Actually, the specific language on how Wild Shape works while you are in beast shape does rule it out. While in beast shape you can only use Wild Shape to renew the duration on the shape.

The specific language has you enter beast shape from your normal shape, hence the extensive quoting showing that there are two distinct states in play. Alter Self quite specifically allows this, Wild Shape does not. Apples and Oranges SharkForce.

Wild Shape is of course retained while in Beast shape, but it's function is to renew the beast shape, not to enter it (you're already in beast shape at that point). It would be like trying to turn a light switch on when it's already on.

The rules are there, just use em.


I'm sorry, I thought we weren't supposed to make assumptions. Okay, so we make ONE assumption based on implicit (but not explicit) rules. That's fine. I mean, I don't see why being a beast means you can't turn into a beast, unless you're arguing that because there's no change in creature type, you're can't "become" a beast when you already are one, but that's a bit of stretch.

Sorry, this is just basic english grammar/language, entering a state de facto means previously existing outside of that state. It's not the beast per se, but the beast shape (which is repeatedly referred to as being in the state of a wild shape, regardless of the form that actually takes).

All the other things you quoted were to demonstrate the repeated references to it being a boolean structured state, much like a light switch. The light is either on (in Beast shape) or off (in normal form), one can not go from on to on, it must go to off first.

Not coincidentally, this would be quite balanced as the Druid would not be able to go from Mammoth to Mammoth or Earth Elemental to Earth Elemental refreshing ~200 hit points per round as a bonus action. I'm fairly certain this would make the Druid literally unkillable by any single adversary. But feel free to try and explain why this could possibly be RAI.


...that looks pretty explicit to me. You explicitly still have access to the Wild Shape class feature, you can explicitly use Wild Shape to stay in your current form, and all the "evidence" that "proves" Wild Shape can't be used in Wild Shape is incredibly shaky and flawed implications at best.

Yes, it can be used, however it's function while in a beast shape is to extend that beast shape. "You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature." It's right there! Expending another use of the feature extends the shape. Only by skipping that rule do you get to the notion that one can A) use Wild shape to while in beast shape to alter that shape, and B) refresh all hit points on a bonus action (As a moon druid) or action (as a land druid). Which, as is noted above, would be absurdly imbalanced.


Isn't sage advice already confirmed that wild shape to wild shape is legit?

a) isn't that a 3rd party site?
b) weren't those questions phrased to bypass the core point, that if possible that would allow infinite hit points?


The class ability says you can use an action/bonus action to transform into an beast, therefore you can do so. There is no language to suggest that you can only do that while in humanoid form. If that were the intent, it would say "if you are in your normal form, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast" or "you can't wild shape while you are already wild shaped."

The class ability also states that while in beast shape expending a use of the ability extends the current shape. That it initiates the shape is irrelevent at that point, and see above for why it's important to note that there are two distinct forms within the rules.


... hmmm my math's say it's a possible maximum of 171 damage (triple crits [4d12 each] and rolling all 12's)
and I'm probably missing some bonus's....

raging Half-Orc 20 Berserker using GWM with Greataxe and all crits, maximized would do:
2d12 (axe crit) + 4d12 (brutal crit + half-orc) + 21 (+7 str mod, +4 rage damage + 10 gwm)
x3 (three attacks) = 18d12 + 63 = 279 maximum damage.

[AvatarVecna]

-snip-

There is no text in Wild Shape that explicitly removes the ability to use Wild Shape in its normal fashion; the only "evidence" you have is shaky logic based on the unintended grammatical implications. That's standard for 3.5, where RAW was king, and the grammar and wording of the rules was all that mattered, but 5e is built where the intentions are more important than the letter of the rule except in very clear-cut scenarios; intentionally misunderstanding the designer's intentions in order to read new implications in the grammar of the text is BS, and the proof is the Sage Advice: they already said "yes, this works", which means that's how they intended it to work. Such "rulings" weren't accepted in 3.5 generally because of how RAW-focused it was (and how often those rulings disagreed with the RAW despite being presented as RAW).

Either we're going on pure RAW, and there's nothing forbidding you from using Wild Shape regularly, or we're going by designer's intentions and that's the way it was intended to be. You can't say "the implications of their phrasing is more important than their stated intentions", at least not while maintaining credibility.

[Desamir]

The class ability also states that while in beast shape expending a use of the ability extends the current shape. That it initiates the shape is irrelevent at that point, and see above for why it's important to note that there are two distinct forms within the rules.

You are making a lot of inferences that do not hold up to the RAW and RAI. You're assuming that wild shape works like a light switch as the premise of your argument, but the premise is incorrect.

"You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature" provides you an option. It does not state that you can't use wild shape while already wild shaped. This is supported by Mike Mearls, lead designer of 5e. Source: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/16/wild-shape-in-wild-shape/ and http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/15/wild-shape-to-wild-shape/

Whether you or I think it's overpowered is irrelevant to a discussion of the RAW. It works how it works. There are many overpowered things at 20th level; this is just one of them, and not even the worst offender.

[MaxWilson]

Hey, the lv20 cap for Land Druids is AWESOME. Ignore Somatic, Verbal and Material components in spells? Sneak up and silently blast something. They don't know you're there because you don't have to make a noise or a movement. Ignore any expensive materials when casting your spells, simply do so. Grappled? Fry 'em without needing to move.

You don't get to ignore expensive material components, or components that are consumed by casting.

[N810]

raging Half-Orc 20 Berserker using GWM with Greataxe and all crits, maximized would do:
2d12 (axe crit) + 4d12 (brutal crit + half-orc) + 21 (+7 str mod, +4 rage damage + 10 gwm)
x3 (three attacks) = 18d12 + 63 = 279 maximum damage.

I'm going out on a limb and I'm going to say that this is probably more than the combined
total of the druids wildshape + regular hit points combined. :thog:

[SharkForce]

I'm going out on a limb and I'm going to say that this is probably more than the combined
total of the druids wildshape + regular hit points combined. :thog:

sure, but it's improbable enough that we can discount the chance of it ever happening.

[N810]

OP never mentioned probability, only possibility. :tongue:
and there's a one in a million 10 million shot of killing a druid in one round.

(fixed)

[AvatarVecna]

I'm going out on a limb and I'm going to say that this is probably more than the combined
total of the druids wildshape + regular hit points combined. :thog:

Earth Elemental has the best defenses (AC 17, 126 HP), while the regular Druid form has decent defenses; let's say AC 17 for simplicity's sake (Studded Leather+Dex 16+Shield) and 143 HP (Base 103+Con mod 40). So to kill the druid in a single round, we need to deal 249 damage in a single round...totally possible. But probable?

With three attacks to work with (assuming the Druid doesn't attack you and trigger the reaction attack), all three need to be crits; if two are crits and one is just a hit, we only get 13d12+63, which maxes out at 219, which isn't enough to take out the druid in one shot. So all three need to be crits (giving you 18d12+63); after the static damage, you need to deal 186 with the dice...which means your die rolls need to average at least over 10.3333333...not exactly the easiest roll to pull off. So what are the odds? Poor. Best chances are 12 rolls of 10 or higher (25% chance), and 6 rolls of 11 or higher (16.666666666% chance)...and you need to get all of them.

So to recap, you need to get three crits (9.75% chance to the third power), and of your 18d12 damage dice, you need to get 12 10s or higher (25% chance to the 12th power) and 6 11s or higher (16.6666666% chance to the sixth power). All together, your chances of killing the druid outright is 59319 chances out of...50096498540544000000. How unlikely a round is that? Well, let's say that D&D 5e has been out since 1975 (let's call it 40 years on the dot today), and you had started this fight back then, fighting a different "Earth Elemental Form" Moon Druid 20 for every turn your barbarian took in the game. Let's say it takes you about 10 seconds to roll and count your damage, and neither you nor your DM have slept or done anything else in all that time, there's about a 1 in 10 million chance you've seen a round like that in all this time.

But I guess it's technically possible that you've seen a round that good. Of course, we're assuming a Moon Druid with 16 Dex and 14 Con at 20th lvl, which seems low, but whatever, I'm sure it's fine.


OP never mentioned probability, only possibility. :tongue:
and there's a one in a million shot of killing a druid in one round.

D&D 5e is a game where, if the dice are screwing you over, there's not much that can be done. So yes, if everybody's dice hate that Moon Druid 20 with the burning hot fury of a million Hulks, their collective rage shall fuel the barbarian's attacks through sheer luck.

[Vogonjeltz]

There is no text in Wild Shape that explicitly removes the ability to use Wild Shape in its normal fashion;

I didn't say it changes its normal function, the normal function when in normal form is to assume a beast shape, and when in beast shape to extend that beast shapes' duration.


You are making a lot of inferences that do not hold up to the RAW and RAI. You're assuming that wild shape works like a light switch as the premise of your argument, but the premise is incorrect.

"You then revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature" provides you an option. It does not state that you can't use wild shape while already wild shaped. This is supported by Mike Mearls, lead designer of 5e. Source: http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/08/16/...in-wild-shape/ and http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/09/15/...to-wild-shape/

Whether you or I think it's overpowered is irrelevant to a discussion of the RAW. It works how it works. There are many overpowered things at 20th level; this is just one of them, and not even the worst offender.

I'm reading the text and applying it. Mike Mearls statements aren't official rulings, nor are they actually sage advice (which is why I wouldn't rely on that 3rd party site for citations, it's largely useless). If you want to get the official answer, you need to get it from Jeremy Crawford.

The existence of two distinct modes is well supported within the text, even if you don't like it.


I'm going out on a limb and I'm going to say that this is probably more than the combined
total of the druids wildshape + regular hit points combined.

Maybe, maybe not. If they have a con mod (And they probably have at least a +1, if not higher), then they probably have anywhere from 123-203 hit points themselves. Given how improbable it is to even roll 3 20s in a row (6.25% of the time?) I would not consider this realistic.

If the hp can be refreshed while already in a beast shape, the Druid almost certainly can not die in a one on one confrontation.

[JumboWheat01]

Maybe, maybe not. If they have a con mod (And they probably have at least a +1, if not higher), then they probably have anywhere from 123-203 hit points themselves. Given how improbable it is to even roll 3 20s in a row (6.25% of the time?) I would not consider this realistic.

If there's one thing I've learned from my many years of various gaming, just when you think you're on the top and unbeatable, that's when the RNG Gods smite you like a poor infidel. So it's probably the most likely scenario, considering how powerful Moon Druids are.

[Sigreid]

I've been thinking about this, and I think it would be better for comparing them would be to compare how they do by themselves against an appropriate opponent. So, the Moon Druid under the right circumstances can have nearly unlimited hit points (if some how the fight goes on long enough fatigue will set in and be a factor) but can he kill the opponent? The barbarian can clearly kill the opponent, but can he live long enough to do it?

Just my 2 copper.

[MaxWilson]

Given how improbable it is to even roll 3 20s in a row (6.25% of the time?) I would not consider this realistic.

Three 20s in a row happens 0.0125% of the time.

[AvatarVecna]

Three 20s in a row happens 0.0125% of the time.

With advantage the odds are .0927% of the time or so to get all crits.

[Vogonjeltz]

Three 20s in a row happens 0.0125% of the time.

Oops, sorry I mistakenly typed .5 and did it three times in a row instead of two, whoops!


With advantage the odds are .0927% of the time or so to get all crits.

Right, if they are using reckless attack and have no disadvantage to cancel it out.

I think this is minutiae at this point, either way it's outside the bounds of a realistic chance of success if the Druid can refresh hitpoints while in form.

[AvatarVecna]

Oops, sorry I mistakenly typed .5 and did it three times in a row instead of two, whoops!



Right, if they are using reckless attack and have no disadvantage to cancel it out.

I think this is minutiae at this point, either way it's outside the bounds of a realistic chance of success if the Druid can refresh hitpoints while in form.

It's worth pointing out that a Half-Orc Barbarian (Berserker) 17/Rogue (Assassin) 3 can get advantage and turns his first round's hits to crits if he wins initiative (assuming no disadvantage from the Druid). The sneak attack dice make that high damage requirement easier to reach, but 4d6 isn't going to make a huge difference there, so you still need good rolls.

Assuming the druid happened to already be in Earth Elemental form and you've got a Greatsword +2 at the ready, you can chop three times at +13 for 6d12+21. Even so, you have to average 10.33333 still; the only thing that's gotten easier to pull off is getting the crits, since now you just have to hit with advantage...and your odds are still in the .00000000000001% range or so, so that hasn't changed much.

[PoeticDwarf]

Both optimized at level 20, Druid can only use spell slots to heal or buff. Nothing offensive, no debuffing or control.

Can a level 20 barbarian get through all those hit points before he dies himself? Or is it an impossible task?

Level 19 barb vs level 19 moon druid is in this situation an easy win for the barbarian.

With the level 20, the druid would easily win, healing as a bonus action isn't the biggest deal, but the infinite HP druid with all the time a form as giant crocodile, elemental or something on would be impossible for the barbarian. Cause even if the barbarian would deal ten times more damage having over 300hp, the druid would have over 3000hp easily.

[PoeticDwarf]

I'm going out on a limb and I'm going to say that this is probably more than the combined
total of the druids wildshape + regular hit points combined. :thog:

A proper moon druid will get con as secondary (or if not taking spells even most important) stat, and if specially made for this fight a tough feat but even with just 18 con and the form with the most HP the total HP will be 126 (earth elemental, I guess) + 183 what is more than 279, and this will almost never happen, of course.

[spartan_ah]

Hill dwarf, with 20 wis and 20 con and tough feat will have an avg of 260 hp

[MaxWilson]

If we're already off in la-la land in terms of "is this not physically impossible," there is no need to compute crit damage and HP. The answer is just "Yes, an optimized barbarian could, in principle, kill a moon druid." For example, a Magic Initiate barbarian could cast Tasha's Uncontrollable Laughter on the druid to incapacitate and prevent wild shaping. The druid could fail all of his saving throws to recover, and then the barbarian chops him up. The End.