Warlock? Bladesinger? Why not both?

[BootStrapTommy]

Was mulling over some optimization options for the Bladesinger, figured I'd voice the process just to get some opinions.

Variant human (War Caster), stat priorities: Int, Dex, Con

Despite having Warlock levels, Cha is not actually important. First two levels Warlock, for the d8 hit die, spell slots, Hex, Armor of Agathys, and the Armor of Shadows invocation.

Next two levels into the Bladesinger.

According to the multiclassing rules for Pact Magic, you can cast Warlock spells using your Wizard spell slots and vice versa. Theoretically, this means you can take advantage of Hex, without your ****ty Cha being an issue. Since the build relies in part on this to remedy MADD, let me know if I'm off there. Just use your Warlock spell slots to cast lower level buff spells (AoA!) or maybe Magic Missile (things not dependent on your Cha).

Focus on buff spells and battlefield control spells. At 6th level, grab Resilient (Con), for obvious reasons.

Booming Blade is a good Warlock cantrip (damage is not Cha dependent) and it's synergistic to War Caster, used as an opportunity attack. Nice in combo with Thunderwave. Green-Flame Blade is an obvious wizard cantrip candidate.

It completely sucks til 4th level, but I built it for a campaign that started at 6th. That flaw aside, what do you guys think? Suggestions?

PS. SCAG says the Elven restriction is optional. This is a Greyhawk campaign anyway.

[krugaan]

dont you need at least 13 cha to multi out of warlock? I fail to see what real benefit warlock offers over straight bladesinger other than ... imp darkvision

[SharkForce]

not sure why you think it'd be better than single-class bladesinger.

at level 6, you'll have two attacks per melee (which is worth more than hex on a single attack and doesn't take up your bonus action) and access to either enlarge or haste for most fights in a day, and spending a single slot on mage armour per day is not a big deal like it might have been at level 1.

honestly, i'm just not seeing how this is in any way mechanically a better option than just being a single-classed bladesinger. unless you're splashing warlock for a roleplaying reason, i really can't recommend it.

[BootStrapTommy]

I was unaware you had to meet a requirement to multiclass out of a class. I don't think that's right.

Anyway, you get Hex, for one thing. At will Mage Armor is another. Armor of Agathys and two additional cantrips. Deception and Persuasion proficiency or detect magic at will.

[SharkForce]

hex isn't that great on a class that only ever gets 2 attacks. certainly not a class that has many other worthwhile buffs to consider.

armor of agathys is nice, but probably not worth losing out on higher level class features.

at will mage armor (on self only) is also not that good by the time you're level 6 unless you're an abjurer. you basically need one per day, really.

cantrips are nice, but not really all that needed. invocations are ok, but again, not really needed.

so really, all you're gaining that has much value is armour of agathys as a spell known. while it is a great spell, i just don't see it being worth a 2 level dip.

[Dalebert]

You're only gaining +1 to AC from Mage Armor since blade singers can wear light armor. It might be nice to get eventually but it's not a big deal, and you can do it as a bladesinger already. Hex already works better with a straight warlock and eldritch blast. I don't follow the point of doing this either. What's the goal?

I continue to be of the mindset that the primary benefit of blade singer is getting some okay gishy benefits without having to lose any wizard levels. I have yet to see a build that makes multiclassing appealing as a BS.

[Starsinger]

According to the multiclassing rules for Pact Magic, you can cast Warlock spells using your Wizard spell slots and vice versa.

Small nitpick, you can use the slot, but it is still a Warlock spell and uses your Charisma. Using a Wizard slot to cast it does not make it a Wizard spell.

[Dalebert]

Small nitpick, you can use the slot, but it is still a Warlock spell and uses your Charisma. Using a Wizard slot to cast it does not make it a Wizard spell.

I think he knows that. He seems to be picking spells that don't have an attack roll or save so it won't matter.

[MaxWilson]

I was unaware you had to meet a requirement to multiclass out of a class. I don't think that's right.

Anyway, you get Hex, for one thing. At will Mage Armor is another. Armor of Agathys and two additional cantrips. Deception and Persuasion proficiency or detect magic at will.

At will Mage Armor is awesome for an Abjuror because it means kind-of-unlimited Arcane Ward. For a Bladesinger, it's pretty meh, saves you one spell slot per day and a spells-prepared slot.

Hex isn't a great use of your concentration for the most part. The best thing about it is its low action cost (bonus action only) but your bonus action is already busy with Bladesinging and possibly two-weapon fighting on top. Hex could be nice if you're something kooky like a grappling Bladesinger (lets you grapple without boosting Strength), but in a real fight you'll be better off with Blur than Hex from a loss ratio perspective. It is cool that Warlock would let you do Devil's Sight/Darkness instead of Blur, but that would be more useful to a real fighter class like a GWM Paladin or Champion.

5E is easy by design, so I have no doubt that you could play this character and have fun with it. But the answer to your question "Why not both?" is that the opportunity cost is high and the gain is only middling. Do it if you think it will be fun.

[Starsinger]

I think he knows that. He seems to be picking spells that don't have an attack roll or save so it won't matter.

Yeah, probably, but just checking because there was a bit about asterisky Cha not mattering.

[krugaan]

yes, you need 13 to multi out as well as in

[Safety Sword]

5E is easy by design...

What do you mean by this?

[Desamir]

I was unaware you had to meet a requirement to multiclass out of a class. I don't think that's right.

Anyway, you get Hex, for one thing. At will Mage Armor is another. Armor of Agathys and two additional cantrips. Deception and Persuasion proficiency or detect magic at will.

PHB 163: "To qualify for a new class, you must meet the ability score prerequisites for both your current class and your new one."

Hex takes concentration and has much better synergy with Eldritch Blast than anything a wizard could do. Mage Armor takes a level 1 slot and lasts for 8 hours as-is... why would that be worth an invocation? The only reason Warlocks take it is because they can't get Mage Armor any other way. You can cast Detect Magic as a ritual.

[MaxWilson]

What do you mean by this?

Mearls has talked about how 5E is designed for casual players, ones who don't spend a lot of time thinking about the game away from the game, or optimizing builds/tactics/party synergies. The default DMG guidelines for encounters give you encounters and adventuring days which are basically impossible to lose even with a completely straightforward approach. I have yet to see a class combination or build which could not beat a standard DMG adventuring day--the bar is set quite low, and it makes perfect sense since they are aiming to let casual players have a good experience.

That's what I mean.

[Safety Sword]

Mearls has talked about how 5E is designed for casual players, ones who don't spend a lot of time thinking about the game away from the game, or optimizing builds/tactics/party synergies. The default DMG guidelines for encounters give you encounters and adventuring days which are basically impossible to lose even with a completely straightforward approach. I have yet to see a class combination or build which could not beat a standard DMG adventuring day--the bar is set quite low, and it makes perfect sense since they are aiming to let casual players have a good experience.

That's what I mean.

Surely the difficulty of encounters or entire adventuring days is solely dependent on how the DM structures things.

D&D is only "easy" if the DM consistently under-challenges your party and doesn't adapt to your characters to make it "harder".

That's part of good encounter design, surely?

[Nishant]

Mearls has talked about how 5E is designed for casual players, ones who don't spend a lot of time thinking about the game away from the game, or optimizing builds/tactics/party synergies. The default DMG guidelines for encounters give you encounters and adventuring days which are basically impossible to lose even with a completely straightforward approach. I have yet to see a class combination or build which could not beat a standard DMG adventuring day--the bar is set quite low, and it makes perfect sense since they are aiming to let casual players have a good experience.

That's what I mean.

That's less a '5e is for casual players' as it is 'it's built to be less daunting' DnD has been designed to be brutal at times, and CR has never been balanced well. (intellect devourer can effectively Tpk an entire party off a few poor rolls.)

A good DM understands that it's an example, and many people will need adjustments. It should be mentioned that it's quite likely that optimizers are in the minority; building a game where you have to bend it over your knee to succeed isn't much fun without extensive knowledge prior to starting.

[MaxWilson]

That's less a '5e is for casual players' as it is 'it's built to be less daunting' DnD has been designed to be brutal at times, and CR has never been balanced well. (intellect devourer can effectively Tpk an entire party off a few poor rolls.)

A good DM understands that it's an example, and many people will need adjustments. It should be mentioned that it's quite likely that optimizers are in the minority; building a game where you have to bend it over your knee to succeed isn't much fun without extensive knowledge prior to starting.

RE: bolded statement, I don't see a distinction. Your whole statement above seems to be agreeing, not disagreeing, with my statement that 5E is made to be easy, except that you seem to object to the words "casual" and "easy". But you don't dispute that the difficulty bar is deliberately set low.

[Joe the Rat]

It strikes me that this mix would be more advantageous the other way around - a dip of BS on a Warlock. Bladesinging, a couple-few low level daily slots for emergencies, all the first level wizard rituals you'd ever want. Make your wizard spells non-attack or stat-independent selections, and go to town. A bit MAD, but workable if you're already using Int (the well-read Warlock type).

[Lavok Rammstein]

Joe is spot on. I currently have a level 6 Half Elf fiend bladepact warlock. Mostly spamming EB with hex up. Multiclassing into wizard for 3 levels to get some extra defense spells (shield/absorb elements) and rituals, that sweet bladesong ability for the times I will need to be in melee. With bladesong and dark ones blessing, you have some good survival ability in a horde situation. EB with Hex for those boss battles where you need to stay out of melee and use tactical positioning. Overall a very versatile, useful character.

[PoeticDwarf]

I don't see the point, go full bladesinger if you want stuff from wizard or full warlock if you want to go eldritch blast (or bladelock) with other warlock stuff.

[WickerNipple]

I don't see the point, go full bladesinger if you want stuff from wizard or full warlock if you want to go eldritch blast (or bladelock) with other warlock stuff.

Full warlock adds very little if your goal is to go eldritch blast.

Levels of another spellcasting class are very useful for warlocks - that's not really debatable. My concern within this topic is that I can't see bladesinger adding as much as bard or sorcerer potentially do.

As for the OP's bladesinger: outside of theme or darkness shenanigans, I can't see much reason a bladesinger would want to dip warlock, but it won't ruin the character or anything. Short rest spells are nice, but they don't seem that compelling to me in this case.

Also, I really dislike characters that are ineffective at low levels, even if you won't be playing those levels.

[Dalebert]

I agree with Joe. If you're going to mix them, focus on warlock. I was just saying in one of the bladesinger threads that bladesinger seems incredibly front-loaded. They have what seems to be the absolute best level 2 ability of any wizard archetype. The perks they get at later levels are less impressive. It probably equals out in the long run for straight wizards, but lends itself to a 2 level dip in wizard, particularly since blade locks have a weak point with armor class but they can use bladesinging with light armor.

The mage armor question is interesting to me. Everyone seems to be assuming a bladesinger would use it. I actually question whether it's worth it for just +1 to AC. If it were just a 1st level slot, that might make sense, but you're also giving up a spells prepared slot. Given their low hit points, I'm inclined to be cautious in melee anyway and trying to avoid being hit at all. That's why I took a whip for my bladesinger. The general plan will be to be a wizard first and have bladesong as a defensive measure when needed, and also to be able to contribute a little better when I'm conserving spells for whatever reason. But when I do get into melee, I'll attempt to avoid closing via reach from the whip and throwing a dagger with my bonus action. Is that one point of AC really worth preparing a spell and using a slot every day (or more than once a day sometimes)?

Oh, but I'm starting my bladesinger in Mines of Phandelver and hoping to get that Staff of Defense. Of course I will have mage armor after that. Duh!