Character Concept - Defensive Attacker

[GenericClone]

I'm looking to create a character that focuses on taking actions on the enemies turns. For example, if they fail to hit, the feat Defensive Throw(free trip if they miss) in CW, for attacks that do hit, ToB class Crusaders Steely Resolve and Furious Counterstrike, and possibly increase defence in someway after being hit or successfully dodging.

Wanting the character to avoid being hit by parrying a enemy attack and hitting them back, using their swing to have them stab their ally, etc

I guess a good example would be playing Assassins Creed and you only use the counter option to attack.

Looking for input on any items/class features/feats/etc that may be helpful towards that goal.

Hope that all makes sense.

Thanks

[PraxisVetli]

I would suggest looking at lockdown builds, primarily those that specialize in crusader/knight, often with Spiked chains.
Knock down, thicket of blades, and the like.

[Rubik]

Add this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20143540&postcount=17) to a character with Combat Reflexes, a LOT of reach, the Sun School feat to attack on "instantaneous movement," standard, move, swift, and immediate movement options, and Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Watch enemy ranks crumble against you. It requires a LOT of feats, but that's doable with some higher op shenanigans to buy lots of feats and dip lots of classes for all of their Armor and Shield Proficiency feats, which you then proceed to DCFS out for the ones you need.

[gorfnab]

Take a look at the feat Elusive Target from Complete Warrior

Also this handbook has a few tricks that might help: A short guide to defensive fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting)

One combo I like is Combat Reflexes + Robliar's Gambit (PHBII) + Stormguard Warrior (ToB)

[GenericClone]

Thanks for the great suggestions

Looking through all the resources that you gave me this is what I came up with for a level progression to 15

CL (Level)Class Feats/Class Features
1 1Monk Improved Unarmed Strike, Passive Way ACF(Dodge), Feat(Combat Expertise), Feat(Karmic Strike), AC Bonus(Wis)
2 2Monk Evasion, Passive Way ACF(Mobility)
3 1Fighter Bonus Feat(Improved Trip)
4 1Warblade Battle Clarity(Reflex Saves)
5 2Warblade Feat(Knock-Down), Uncanny Dodge
6 1FotF AC Bonus(Con), Feral Trance 1/day, Fast Movement, Primal Living, Feat(Combat Reflexes)
7 2FotF (Improved)Uncanny Dodge, Untamed Strike
8 2Fighter Bonus Feat(Superior Unarmed Strike)
9 3Warblade Battle Ardor(Critical Confirmation), Feat(Snap-Kick)
10 4Warblade
11 5Warblade Bonus Feat(Ironheart Aura), Improved Uncanny Dodge(Trade for Elusive Target)
12 3Fighter Feat(Stormguard Warrior)
13 4Fighter Bonus Feat(Robilar’s Gambit)
14 6Warblade
15 7Warblade Battle Cunning(Damage)

I definitely won't be able to get away with DCFS, thats a little much. I threw in Fist of the Forest for the obvious benefits. Not sure if Warblade is the best choice class wise, seemed to fit better than crusader,but works well with fist of the forest uncanny dodge. My DM will allow me to trade a class ability that I already have for a feat, If they can't stack(other than basic weapon and armour proficiencies), so level 5 warblade improved uncanny dodge is going to be Elusive Target.

would karmic strike + Robilar's Gambit give me 2 AoO on the same target? Or should I see if my DM would let me retrain karmic strike at level 13?

If you have any ideas for improvements, or thoughts on problems they would be appreciated.

Thanks again.

[Rubik]

Thanks for the great suggestions

Looking through all the resources that you gave me this is what I came up with for a level progression to 15

CL (Level)Class Feats/Class Features
1 1Monk Improved Unarmed Strike, Passive Way ACF(Dodge), Feat(Combat Expertise), Feat(Karmic Strike), AC Bonus(Wis)
2 2Monk Evasion, Passive Way ACF(Mobility)
3 1Fighter Bonus Feat(Improved Trip)
4 1Warblade Battle Clarity(Reflex Saves)
5 2Warblade Feat(Knock-Down), Uncanny Dodge
6 1FotF AC Bonus(Con), Feral Trance 1/day, Fast Movement, Primal Living, Feat(Combat Reflexes)
7 2FotF (Improved)Uncanny Dodge, Untamed Strike
8 2Fighter Bonus Feat(Superior Unarmed Strike)
9 3Warblade Battle Ardor(Critical Confirmation), Feat(Snap-Kick)
10 4Warblade
11 5Warblade Bonus Feat(Ironheart Aura), Improved Uncanny Dodge(Trade for Elusive Target)
12 3Fighter Feat(Stormguard Warrior)
13 4Fighter Bonus Feat(Robilar’s Gambit)
14 6Warblade
15 7Warblade Battle Cunning(Damage)

I definitely won't be able to get away with DCFS, thats a little much. I threw in Fist of the Forest for the obvious benefits. Not sure if Warblade is the best choice class wise, seemed to fit better than crusader,but works well with fist of the forest uncanny dodge. My DM will allow me to trade a class ability that I already have for a feat, If they can't stack(other than basic weapon and armour proficiencies), so level 5 warblade improved uncanny dodge is going to be Elusive Target.

would karmic strike + Robilar's Gambit give me 2 AoO on the same target? Or should I see if my DM would let me retrain karmic strike at level 13?

If you have any ideas for improvements, or thoughts on problems they would be appreciated.

Thanks again.Karmic Strike allows you an AoO on an attack that would hit you (which takes place before the attack actually lands, so Knockback that sucker away from you before it hits), and Robilar's Gambit takes place after the attack, but it works if he tries to hit you at all, succeed or fail.

Can you use the martial monk ACF to qualify for Karmic Strike and Improved Trip without meeting prereqs? It's a shame to need Dodge and Combat Expertise in your build, because they suck. That would save you two feats you could trade in for better things, like Jotunbrud. And you can trade in that feat you get at fighter 2 for dungeoncrasher fighter, which will be really, really nice to have.

And don't forget to slide Knockback and Shock Trooper in there somewhere. I'd skip Stormguard Warrior, for sure. I don't even know why anyone bothers with that useless feat.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Decisive Strike can be good, if you can guarantee lots of AoOs. As a full-round action, make one attack (later, two attacks) that deals double damage, and all other attacks that round also deal double damage. It doesn't work too well with standard-action strikes or Stormguard Warrior, but it's good for the specific concept of a defensive attacker.

[GenericClone]

Karmic Strike allows you an AoO on an attack that would hit you (which takes place before the attack actually lands, so Knockback that sucker away from you before it hits), and Robilar's Gambit takes place after the attack, but it works if he tries to hit you at all, succeed or fail.

Can you use the martial monk ACF to qualify for Karmic Strike and Improved Trip without meeting prereqs? It's a shame to need Dodge and Combat Expertise in your build, because they suck. That would save you two feats you could trade in for better things, like Jotunbrud. And you can trade in that feat you get at fighter 2 for dungeoncrasher fighter, which will sbe really, really nice to have.

And don't forget to slide Knockback and Shock Trooper in there somewhere. I'd skip Stormguard Warrior, for sure. I don't even know why anyone bothers with that useless feat.

Martial Monk doesn't let you ignore the prereqs unfortunately. I like elusive target in the build so thats where the dodge and mobility come to play, however it likely would function better to swap that progression out for shock trooper. Dungeon crasher is a good idea and I will probably work that in.

I didn't take knock back because one of the requirements is to be a large creature. I like Jotunbrud, would obviously be useful for the opposed rolls, does this allow you to qualify for knock back? The wording is practically the same from Goliath so I would imagine that it would.

I was iffy on the storm guard warrior, I like the concept of being able to use my full attack on a heavily armoured opponent with the touch attacks, then everytime they swing at me with robilars gambit getting more touch attacks in. Lets say on my turn I get 4 touch attacks in, 3 from full attack, 1 snap kick. On their turn they swing at me 3 times, i get 3 AoO and another 3 touch attacks. Now all my attacks against them for my next turn(If I hit) do +35 damage each, plus any further attacks of opportunities until my next turn, if I think i am right in understanding that. But it is very circumstantial, and single target focused, those two feats could probably be better spent elsewhere, but i wasn't sure what on.

[Rubik]

Decisive Strike can be good, if you can guarantee lots of AoOs. As a full-round action, make one attack (later, two attacks) that deals double damage, and all other attacks that round also deal double damage. It doesn't work too well with standard-action strikes or Stormguard Warrior, but it's good for the specific concept of a defensive attacker.Be One-Punch Man.

Note that decisive strike also works well with Snap Kick and unarmed strike optimization. Also note that with various swift action movement modes, such as Travel Devotion and Sudden Leap, you can move and still get your decisive strike attack.

[GenericClone]

Decisive Strike can be good, if you can guarantee lots of AoOs. As a full-round action, make one attack (later, two attacks) that deals double damage, and all other attacks that round also deal double damage. It doesn't work too well with standard-action strikes or Stormguard Warrior, but it's good for the specific concept of a defensive attacker.

I like that idea, cause I doubt i'll ever use flurry of blows. Hit one target with decisive strike and get double damage on all enemies around you that provoke AoOies too.

[Rubik]

Martial Monk doesn't let you ignore the prereqs unfortunately.Is that a house rule? Because martial monk adds fighter bonus feats to the list of monk feats you can take, which are explicitly able to ignore prereqs.


I like elusive target in the build so thats where the dodge and mobility come to play, however it likely would function better to swap that progression out for shock trooper. Dungeon crasher is a good idea and I will probably work that in.At least take one of the Dodge replacements, like Expeditious Dodge; a +2 vs everyone if you move as opposed to +1 to one creature is a massive improvement. There are others, as well, like Desert Wind Dodge (if you're a swordsage) and Midnight Dodge (if you use incarnum).


I didn't take knock back because one of the requirements is to be a large creature. I like Jotunbrud, would obviously be useful for the opposed rolls, does this allow you to qualify for knock back? The wording is practically the same from Goliath so I would imagine that it would.Well, that's a bit of a trick. See, you can't qualify for taking Knockback, but you can qualify for using it. Polymorph into something Large in order to take it, and then "Whenever you receive a modifier based on your size on an opposed roll (such as during grapple and bull rush attempts), you are treated as Large if that's advantageous to you." So when you want to use Knockback (ie, make a bull rush), you are treated as Large, so you can actually use it when needed.


I was iffy on the storm guard warrior, I like the concept of being able to use my full attack on a heavily armoured opponent with the touch attacks, then everytime they swing at me with robilars gambit getting more touch attacks in. Lets say on my turn I get 4 touch attacks in, 3 from full attack, 1 snap kick. On their turn they swing at me 3 times, i get 3 AoO and another 3 touch attacks. Now all my attacks against them for my next turn(If I hit) do +35 damage each, plus any further attacks of opportunities until my next turn, if I think i am right in understanding that. But it is very circumstantial, and single target focused, those two feats could probably be better spent elsewhere, but i wasn't sure what on.You're mostly full BAB (-2 for Snap Kick), use touch attacks for trips, and have a +4 to attack when your enemy is prone. With the standard WBL bonuses and a good starting Strength, I don't think you'll have many issues with hitting. You may want to invest in a few tanglefoot bags and the like, if you think it'll be an issue.

[GenericClone]

I also just realized that Thicket of Blades is Devoted Spirit whilst going through the maneuvers, thought it was Tiger Claw... Which means that Warblade is not going to work because I consider that stance a must. So i'll have to work crusader in.

[GenericClone]

Is that a house rule? Because martial monk adds fighter bonus feats to the list of monk feats you can take, which are explicitly able to ignore prereqs.

Not a house rule, but my understanding of it

I consider it be that you still need to meet the prereqs.

Bonus feat for monk lists
Improved Grapple
Stunning Fist
Combat Reflexes
Deflect Arrows
Improved Trip
Improved Disarm

After listing those it states "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these
feats to select them." And you only have a choice of two at specific levels

So i consider that line was only in regards to those 6. Now Martial Monk states that it adds fighter bonus feats to the choices available, and we can debate whether that line applies to these new feats as well but I personally think that it shouldn't since under the fighters class feature it specifically states that you need to meet the prereqs (Otherwise I'm taking Robilar's Gambit at Level 1). I consider that to be the way that the variant was intended, but technically by the actual wording... you really could.

[Rubik]

Karmic Strike is actually better than Robilar's Gambit, because RG must take place after the attack that provokes it, whereas KS can take place before -- and interrupt -- the attack that provokes it. Sure, KS only functions when the attack would hit you, but it can also prevent those attacks from hitting through Knockback, Disarming, etc. And if you tank your AC through Shock Trooper, most melee attacks are hitting you anyway. Just give yourself enough reach to prevent melee attacks from functioning outside of your threatened area and give yourself some miss chances vs ranged attacks, and you're good.

[MisterKaws]

You should search for jack b. quick, it's a build optimized for the maximum amount of counters possible without going pun-pun, though it's a purely offensive build and cares little about defense, so you'll at most find some nice tricks to add to your character.

[GenericClone]

Ooookay.

Based upon the inputs i've gotten i've gone ahead and modified it quite a bit. I'm much happier with this build.

Illusion Human
CL...(Level)Class..........Feats/Class Abilities
1 ....1Monk..........Improved Unarmed Strike, Decisive Strike, Overwhelming Attack(Power Attack), Feat(Combat Expertise), Feat(Jotunbrud), Flaw(Weapon Prof. Spiked Chain), Flaw(Improved Trip), AC Bonus(Wis)
2.....2Monk..........Evasion, Overwhelming Attack(Improved Bullrush)
3.....1Fighter........Bonus Feat(Combat Reflexes), Feat(Karmic Strike)
4.....2Fighter........Dungeoncrasher1
5.....1Warblade....Battle Clarity(Reflex Saves)
6.....2Warblade....Feat(Knockback), Uncanny Dodge
7.....3Warblade....Battle Ardor(Critical Confirmation)
8.....1Crusader.....Steely Resolve 5, Furious Counterstrike
9.....4Fighter........Feat(Knock-down), Bonus Feat(Shock Trooper)
10...2Crusader.....Stance(Thicket of Blades), Indomitable Soul
11...4Warblade....N/A
12...5Warblade....Feat(Snap Kick), Bonus Feat(Great Fortitude)
13...1Fist otF.......AC Bonus(Con) Feral Trance 1/day, Fast Movement, Primal Living
14...5Fighter........N/A
15...6Fighter........Feat(Robilar’s Gambit), Dungeoncrasher2

We are forgoing the unarmed strike aspect and moving to Spiked Chain as the primary weapon, because i have no idea how to fit have room to optimize it and fit reach into it other than being a large creature, save a feat but I would still use a spiked chain... Idk any large creatures without level adjustments... Thoughts?

Not sure where to take it 16-20, maybe a prestige class. Could do Shadow Sun Ninja for flare, but I don't think it is a good choice. Might work towards getting elusive target at that point.

Please go ahead and tear this apart, if you see any mistakes or things that could make it better I would appreciate the criticism.

Thanks again.

I noticed a mistake when I looked over it again, I need dodge for karmic strike. No idea how to fit that in. Either then being a large creature and dropping Jotunbrud, but I don't want to have a level adjustment or using something other than a spiked chain and dropping the weapon prof. But then I would have no idea how to get reach in this.

[Rubik]

Ooookay.

Based upon the inputs i've gotten i've gone ahead and modified it quite a bit. I'm much happier with this build.

Illusion Human
CL...(Level)Class..........Feats/Class Abilities
1 ....1Monk..........Improved Unarmed Strike, Decisive Strike, Overwhelming Attack(Power Attack), Feat(Combat Expertise), Feat(Jotunbrud), Flaw(Weapon Prof. Spiked Chain), Flaw(Improved Trip), AC Bonus(Wis)
2.....2Monk..........Evasion, Overwhelming Attack(Improved Bullrush)
3.....1Fighter........Bonus Feat(Combat Reflexes), Feat(Karmic Strike)
4.....2Fighter........Dungeoncrasher1
5.....1Warblade....Battle Clarity(Reflex Saves)
6.....2Warblade....Feat(Knockback), Uncanny Dodge
7.....3Warblade....Battle Ardor(Critical Confirmation)
8.....1Crusader.....Steely Resolve 5, Furious Counterstrike
9.....4Fighter........Feat(Knock-down), Bonus Feat(Shock Trooper)
10...2Crusader.....Stance(Thicket of Blades), Indomitable Soul
11...4Warblade....N/A
12...5Warblade....Feat(Snap Kick), Bonus Feat(Great Fortitude)
13...1Fist otF.......AC Bonus(Con) Feral Trance 1/day, Fast Movement, Primal Living
14...5Fighter........N/A
15...6Fighter........Feat(Robilar’s Gambit), Dungeoncrasher2

We are forgoing the unarmed strike aspect and moving to Spiked Chain as the primary weapon, because i have no idea how to fit have room to optimize it and fit reach into it other than being a large creature, save a feat but I would still use a spiked chain... Idk any large creatures without level adjustments... Thoughts?

Not sure where to take it 16-20, maybe a prestige class. Could do Shadow Sun Ninja for flare, but I don't think it is a good choice. Might work towards getting elusive target at that point.

Please go ahead and tear this apart, if you see any mistakes or things that could make it better I would appreciate the criticism.

Thanks again.

I noticed a mistake when I looked over it again, I need dodge for karmic strike. No idea how to fit that in. Either then being a large creature and dropping Jotunbrud, but I don't want to have a level adjustment or using something other than a spiked chain and dropping the weapon prof. But then I would have no idea how to get reach in this.Permanency + Enlarge Person could get you Large without LA. Just a bit of money. Or you could drop the exotic weapon proficiency and either go with a +1 extending gauntlet for range, or you could go with a skillful spiked chain. Pretty trivial expenses at 15th level.

As far as 16+? Hmm. I'll have to give it some thought. War Mind, if you had some power points for prereqs, but...

[GenericClone]

Permanency + Enlarge Person could get you Large without LA. Just a bit of money. Exotic weapon proficiency and either go with a +1 extending gauntlet for range, or you could go with a skillful spiked chain. Pretty trivial expenses at 15th level.



Didn't know that enchantment existed, definitely the option I would want to go with. I will replace the EWP with Dodge then.


As far as 16+? Hmm. I'll have to give it some thought. War Mind, if you had some power points for prereqs, but...

The level 5 ability would be really nice, don't know how to get that one PP though.

[Rubik]

Didn't know that enchantment existed, definitely the option I would go want to with. I will replace the EWP with Dodge then.Which Dodge? Desert Wind Dodge? Expeditious Dodge? Or the one in the PHB?

[GenericClone]

Which Dodge? Desert Wind Dodge? Expeditious Dodge? Or the one in the PHB?

Good question. I think Expeditious Dodge. Run through a bunch of enemies provoking attacks of opportunities, if they are going to hit, karmic strike into knock back to knock-down to interrupt.

Double move would be needed for the 40ft without enchanted boots or level 13 fast movement however.

Wanting confirmation on something. Snap kick and knock back do not mention anything in regards to being adjacent to the enemy. I assume that I can use them at a distance?

[Rubik]

Good question. I think Expeditious Dodge. Run through a bunch of enemies provoking attacks of opportunities, if they are going to hit, karmic strike into knock back to knock-down to interrupt.

Double move would be needed for the 40ft without enchanted boots or level 13 fast movement however.Invest in some maneuver granting items for Shadow Hand movement maneuvers. Standard, Move, and Swift. And then, once you've got another feat coming, take the Sun School feat to make attacks through "instant movement" to get attacks on all of those, or Elusive Target, which you've already looked at. Perhaps Throw Anything, so you can hurl yourself around via your unarmed strike. If you had a level in cloistered cleric (which isn't a bad dip, at all), Travel Devotion would be great, especially with a good Cha score (which you likely dumped; just purchase some nightsticks to compensate).


Wanting confirmation on something. Snap kick and knock back do not mention anything in regards to being adjacent to the enemy. I assume that I can use them at a distance?No; you just need to have them within your unarmed strike range (or within weapons range, for Knockback).

[daremetoidareyo]

Never attack. always defend and full defend. VOP gets that AC nice and ridiculous. You don't attack anyone other for tripping. The rest of the time, you just avoid attacks and steer them into other people around you. Technically, this doesn't violate your vow of nonviolence. Ask DM if you can take luck feats instead of exalted feats after you run out of the good ones.





Class
Feat


Martial rogue
sacred vow (1), vow of poverty (b), combat expertise(b), nymphs kiss (b)


cobra strike monk
vow of nonviolence (b), dodge


cobra strike monk
advantageous avoidance (3), mobility (b)


martial rogue
defender of the homeland (CoV) (b), combat reflexes (b)


martial rogue




fighter
deceptive dodge, trickery devotion, vow of peace


fighter
gnome tunnel acrobatics


marshal rogue
elusive target, servant of the heavens (b)


Fortunes friend
good karma


Fortunes friend
exalted feat, make your own luck


Fortunes friend




Fortunes friend
spring attack, unbelievable luck, exalted feat


Fortunes friend




fighter




fighter
weapon focus, alertness


devoted defender




Jaunter




Jaunter
combat panache


Jaunter




Jaunter








If you ain't feeling the VOP, you can do this instead:




Level

Class

Feats





1
martial rogue

combat expertise (bonus), good karma, (human) advantageous avoidance





2
monk (cobra strike)

dodge (Bonus)





3
monk (cobra strike)

mobility (bonus), trickery devotion?





4
martial rogue 2

combat reflexes (bonus)





5
martial rogue 3








6
fighter 1

deceptive dodge (bonus), combat panache





7
fighter 2

gnome tunnel acrobatics





8
martial rogue 4

Elusive target





9
Fortune’s Friend 1








10
Fortune’s Friend 2

Unbelievable luck





11
Fortune’s Friend 3








12
Fortune’s Friend 4

Sly Fortune, feat





13
Fortune’s Friend 5








14










15










16










17










18










19










20

[Rubik]

Never attack. always defend and full defend. VOP gets that AC nice and ridiculous.Or you could NOT utterly castrate yourself, and instead avoid VoP like the plague.

[daremetoidareyo]

With this build, you redirect attacks against you to attack others. You can force them to reroll attack rolls a few times a day.

good karma allows you to jump in front of others.

advantageous avoidance allows you to force an attack reroll

combat expertise gives you +5 AC.

Deceptive dodge allows you to, when fighting defensively, make a melee attack by your opponent who was targeted by your dodge feat to strike another target of your choice that is both adjacent to you and within the attacker's reach.

Combat panache allows you to make a bluff check vs. an opponent that manages to hit you to force them to attack another dude.

gnome tunnel acrobatics allows you to make a tumble check to make your opponent hit another opponent.

Elusive target allows you force on enemy that flanks you attack another enemy that flanks you. It also allows you make free trip attacks against an opponent who procs and AOO when you tumble out of their square

devoted defender, from sword and fist, has a first level ability that allows you to choose a charge (a person you are responsible for in combat) and switch getting hit with them.

trickery devotion gives you a person to swap attacks from if your alone in a fight.

Most of these abilities need you to declare a dodge on a person, which is a free action on any turn.

[Rubik]

In melee, Combat Expertise is not only a waste, it's a liability. Avoid using it, because your AC is going to be tanked due to Shock Trooper regardless, and you don't want your attack bonus lowered. Reach, Knock Down, Improved Trip, and Knockback will keep you safe from melee attacks if you boost your bull rush bonuses (so your last levels could be factotum 3 for +Int, marshal 1 for +Cha, and totemist 1 for totem avatar bound to your feet chakra and Shape Soulmeld (mauling gauntlets) bound to your hands, though you'll have to find a way to bind those soulmelds before you get to that level). Anyone tries to attack you in melee, you dungeoncrasher Knock Down/Knockback into the ground, smack them unarmed via Snap Kick with another ground-bound Knockback, Improved Trip attack Knockback, Snap Kick Knockback into a nearby wall, and watch them flail angrily as they try (and fail) to actually attack you.

Only use Combat Expertise for ranged attacks, when you can't actually physically attack someone, and even then, miss chances are your friends.

[edit] Also, some mid-level Setting Sun maneuvers will serve you in really good stead, so a level or two in swordsage will work really well for you. Desert Tempest, Leaping Flame, Mirrored Pursuit, and Rapid Counter are all very, very tasty.

[GenericClone]

Invest in some maneuver granting items for Shadow Hand movement maneuvers. Standard, Move, and Swift.

Also, some mid-level Setting Sun maneuvers will serve you in really good stead, so a level or two in swordsage will work really well for you. Desert Tempest, Leaping Flame, Mirrored Pursuit, and Rapid Counter are all very, very tasty.

Changed to Swordsage instead of Warblade


Once you've got another feat coming, take the Sun School feat to make attacks through "instant movement" to get attacks on all of those, or Elusive Target, which you've already looked at.

I took Decisive Strike ACF instead of FoB, would I still qualify?


Perhaps Throw Anything, so you can hurl yourself around via your unarmed strike.

To much cheese for me, and I just think of hilariously throwing my fist in direction and suddenly having my head snapped back as my fist drags me. Definitely wouldn't be able to get away with that one


If you had a level in cloistered cleric (which isn't a bad dip, at all)

I don't quite understand why Cloistered Cleric is a good option, or why it is a good variant?


Anyone tries to attack you in melee, you dungeoncrasher Knock Down/Knockback into the ground, smack them unarmed via Snap Kick with another ground-bound Knockback, Improved Trip attack Knockback, Snap Kick Knockback into a nearby wall, and watch them flail angrily as they try (and fail) to actually attack you.

How would I knock back into the ground without flight? Swing my spiked chain over my head so hard that it slams them into the ground?



Did a pretty big rework on it this time, I like it better, gets to the point faster. Dropped Fist of the Forest as it is no longer focusing on unarmed strikes. Opened up for more class progression 13-20.



CL(Init Lvl)
(Level)Class
Feats/Class Abilities


1(1/2)
(1)Monk
Improved Unarmed Strike, Decisive Strike, Overwhelming Attack(Power Attack), AC Bonus(Wis),




Feat(Combat Expertise), Feat(Jotunbrud), Flaw(Expeditious Dodge), Flaw(Improved Trip)


2(1)
(2)Monk
Evasion, Overwhelming Attack(Improved Bullrush)


3(1 1/2)
(1)Fighter
Bonus Feat(Combat Reflexes), Feat(Karmic Strike)


4(2)
(2)Fighter
Dungeoncrasher1


5(3)
(1)Swordsage
Quick to act 1, Discipline Focus(Spiked Chain)


6(4)
(1)Crusader
Feat(Knockback), Steely Resolve 5, Furious Counterstrike


7(5)
(2)Crusader
Stance(Thicket of Blades), Indomitable Soul


8(5 1/2)
(4)Fighter
Bonus Feat(Shock Trooper)


9(6)
(5)Fighter
Feat(Knock-down)


10(7 1/2)
(6)Fighter
Dungeoncrasher2


11(8 1/2)
(2)Swordsage
AC Bonus(Wis)(Can wear light armour)


12(9 1/2)
(3)Swordsage
Feat(Snap Kick),+1 5th level Maneuver



Maneuvers at level 12
Known........SS8+C5=13
Readied.......SS5+C5(2)=8+3
Stances.......SS2+C2=4

Let me know what you think.

Thanks

[Edit] Fixed Table

[GenericClone]

Never attack. always defend and full defend. VOP gets that AC nice and ridiculous. You don't attack anyone other for tripping. The rest of the time, you just avoid attacks and steer them into other people around you. Technically, this doesn't violate your vow of nonviolence. Ask DM if you can take luck feats instead of exalted feats after you run out of the good ones.

Would be good if I just wanted to focus on making it so my allies will never be hit and everyone will always attack me. But i'm looking for a little more punishment for them attacking me and more control.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't quite understand why Cloistered Cleric is a good option, or why it is a good variant?
A one-level dip gets you 6 skill points, a good will save, turn undead, and three feats or domain powers. The ability to easily activate cleric items with UMD is good, too.

Cleric domain powers are all over the place, from the ability to reroll all 1s on saves (Pride) to Extend Spell (Planning) to a free, powerful devotion feat (Knowledge).

[daremetoidareyo]

There's a few feats left over, so you could consider:

Goad from complete adventurer, move action, to make someone attack you.

Melee evasion from PHB 2 will allow you to negate one attack, doesn't specify that it has to target you, you just need to target the attacker with your dodge.

Master Pickpocket from city of stormreach allows you to steal an item off of a dude as a free action and the DC is only 30. It doesn't matter if they spot you, in fact, you want them to spot you, it makes them want to keep attacking you. Steal spell component pouches and wands and potions and ammunition and tumble around making them hit each other.

Obviously, you want something less passive than what I'm suggesting, which is cool. Just showing that it can be done a different way. Actually, now I want to play this character. The VOP VON VOPeace combat thief acrobat. Does it violate a vow if you steal a wand off of an aggressor? You don't own it, you just stole it. Off to start my own thread!

[Rubik]

I took Decisive Strike ACF instead of FoB, would I still qualify?Unfortunately, a lot of ACFs aren't supported outside of the ACF text itself, and few ACFs explicitly say they qualify for things like this. However, decisive strike and flurry of blows are equivalent class features, and decisive strike works really well with Sun School. Ask your DM if it qualifies, and if it doesn't, shou disciple (from Unapproachable East) and exotic weapon master gain flurry, though it's restricted in the latter's case. Lucky for you, you're using a spiked chain, so exotic weapon master works nicely for you.


To much cheese for me, and I just think of hilariously throwing my fist in direction and suddenly having my head snapped back as my fist drags me. Definitely wouldn't be able to get away with that oneThink of it more like Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch, or Liu Kang's flying/bicycle kick.


I don't quite understand why Cloistered Cleric is a good option, or why it is a good variant?That's been covered already. Aside from a few decent low level utility spells, the chassis is really good, and the domain powers and swappable Devotion feats are fantastic.


How would I knock back into the ground without flight? Swing my spiked chain over my head so hard that it slams them into the ground?Basically, yes. Remember how Shock Trooper allows you to move enemies diagonally instead of straight back? Move them diagonally down.


Did a pretty big rework on it this time, I like it better, gets to the point faster. Dropped Fist of the Forest as it is no longer focusing on unarmed strikes. Opened up for more class progression 13-20.



CL(Init Lvl)
(Level)Class
Feats/Class Abilities


1(1/2)
(1)Monk
Improved Unarmed Strike, Decisive Strike, Overwhelming Attack(Power Attack), AC Bonus(Wis),




Feat(Combat Expertise), Feat(Jotunbrud), Flaw(Expeditious Dodge), Flaw(Improved Trip)


2(1)
(2)Monk
Evasion, Overwhelming Attack(Improved Bullrush)


3(1 1/2)
(1)Fighter
Bonus Feat(Combat Reflexes), Feat(Karmic Strike)


4(2)
(2)Fighter
Dungeoncrasher1


5(3)
(1)Swordsage
Quick to act 1, Discipline Focus(Spiked Chain)


6(4)
(1)Crusader
Feat(Knockback), Steely Resolve 5, Furious Counterstrike


7(5)
(2)Crusader
Stance(Thicket of Blades), Indomitable Soul


8(5 1/2)
(4)Fighter
Bonus Feat(Shock Trooper)


9(6)
(5)Fighter
Feat(Knock-down)


10(7 1/2)
(6)Fighter
Dungeoncrasher2


11(8 1/2)
(2)Swordsage
AC Bonus(Wis)(Can wear light armour)


12(9 1/2)
(3)Swordsage
Feat(Snap Kick),+1 5th level Maneuver



Maneuvers at level 12
Known........SS8+C5=13
Readied.......SS5+C5(2)=8+3
Stances.......SS2+C2=4

Let me know what you think.

ThanksI rather like it. The abilities all synergize well, and you've got access to some great maneuvers, especially from swordsage, and crusader is good for healing and white raven stuff, so you're good on that one. You basically qualify for both shou disciple and exotic weapon master, so long as you keep your skills up. Run exotic weapon master by your DM to see if it qualifies for flurry, and if so, take one level, followed by cloistered cleric. If not, shou disciple 3/cloistered cleric 1 will serve you well.

That's assuming decisive strike doesn't qualify as flurry.

However, don't forget about Adaptive Style.


There's a few feats left over, so you could consider:

Goad from complete adventurer, move action, to make someone attack you.It's a terrible feat. Only affects one creature at a time, has a ton of restrictions, is mind affecting, requires a saving throw, and is easily circumvented if you just use a ranged weapon, a spell, or can just move to set yourself up for a big smack-down next round. Improved Trip is a dozen times better. Goad doesn't synergize well with his build at all. Again, it's a terrible feat. Improving his maneuver use through Adaptive Style or several other ToB feats will serve him far better.


Melee evasion from PHB 2 will allow you to negate one attack, doesn't specify that it has to target you, you just need to target the attacker with your dodge.It's not a bad feat. Evasive Reflexes does the same thing, but on any AoO, and without any rolls. Problem is, Evasive Reflexes uses up an AoO for the round, so it's about on par, assuming you don't have infinite AoOs. Melee Evasion now, retrained after you get infinite AoOs in epic, maybe? If the game is starting at 15th level...


Master Pickpocket from city of stormreach allows you to steal an item off of a dude as a free action and the DC is only 30. It doesn't matter if they spot you, in fact, you want them to spot you, it makes them want to keep attacking you. Steal spell component pouches and wands and potions and ammunition and tumble around making them hit each other.Nifty feat. The BIG part of the feat is that you're not limited to the kinds of things you can steal, except the mark can't be holding it in their hand. Steal armor and clothes and anything else they're not holding in-hand, like their Heward's handy haversack or portable hole, perhaps?

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140219033236/finalfantasy/images/0/00/FFVI_IOS_Merchant_Clothes.png

It doesn't synergize with the rest of the character, but it does broaden his options for the things he can do.


Obviously, you want something less passive than what I'm suggesting, which is cool. Just showing that it can be done a different way. Actually, now I want to play this character. The VOP VON VOPeace combat thief acrobat. Does it violate a vow if you steal a wand off of an aggressor? You don't own it, you just stole it. Off to start my own thread!Vows rarely work well on anyone unless the entire campaign is set up around them, and that requires the entire group and the DM alike to play along. And even then, they're not well thought-out or designed in a way that makes the game better, so you're better off avoiding them unless you build your character, your group, and your entire game around them.

If you take anything from the BoED, take Ancestral Relic. That's a lot of bonus WBL for you. Use it for something good but hard to come by in most campaigns, such as a psychoactive skin of proteus with a bunch of other psychoactive skin and slotless item abilities added on, or a spiked chain with some spell effects that let you call the weapon from afar so you can't lose it.

[edit] Oh! And don't forget to buy a sparring dummy of the master (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/items.php?ID=2312), which you then sell at half cost. 10' steps are nice, especially if you use them to avoid uberchargers. The Press the Advantage stance works well, here, as does Step of the Wind to make 5' steps in difficult terrain.

[GenericClone]

Alright.

I've gone ahead and threw in Cloistered Cleric at level 9 for those devotion feats. Travel for the extra swift move and air for the ranged miss chance for enemies I can't get to, plus ac bonus.


Main states for this build will be (in order of importance) Dex, Str, Wis
Race:Illusion human... Basically just a big bulky human really.


CL(Init Lvl)
(Level)Class
Feats/Class Abilities


1(1/2)
(1)Monk
Improved Unarmed Strike, Decisive Strike, Overwhelming Attack(Power Attack), AC Bonus(Wis),




Feat(Combat Expertise), Feat(Jotunbrud), Flaw(Expeditious Dodge), Flaw(Improved Trip)


2(1)
(2)Monk
Evasion, Overwhelming Attack(Improved Bullrush)


3(1 1/2)
(1)Fighter
Bonus Feat(Combat Reflexes), Feat(Karmic Strike)


4(2)
(2)Fighter
Dungeoncrasher 1


5(3)
(1)Swordsage
Quick to act 1, Discipline Focus(Spiked Chain)


6(4)
(1)Crusader
Feat(Knockback), Steely Resolve 5, Furious Counterstrike


7(5)
(2)Crusader
Stance(Thicket of Blades), Indomitable Soul


8(5 1/2)
(4)Fighter
Bonus Feat(Shock Trooper)


9(6)
(1)C. Cleric
Feat(Knock-down), Divine Spell Casting, Lore, Turn Undead, Domain Feat(Travel Devotion),




Domain Feat(Air Devotion)


10(6 1/2)
(5)Fighter



11(7)
(6)Fighter
Dungeoncrasher 2


12(8)
(2)Swordsage
Feat(Snap Kick), AC Bonus(Wis)(can wear light armour), Probably trade monk AC bonus for feat, Sun School if




decisive strike qualifies or Adaptive Style if it doesn't, Point Blank Shot for Bloodstorm if I go that route


13(9)
(3)Swordsage
+1 5th level Maneuver


Maneuvers at level 13
Known........SS8+C5=13
Readied.......SS5+C5(2)=8+3
Stances.......SS2+C2=4

Still haven't decided on where to take if after 13. I'm thinking of taking the prestige class The Bloodstorm Blade from ToB. Plus I get more fighter bonus feats allowing me to get some more of those feats. I gain throw anything allowing me to throw those fists then i get thunderous throw allowing me to take that thrown fist as a melee attack and if I hit use knock back/knockdown/snapkick etc.

Something I was wondering Thunderous throw text "As a swift action, you can choose to treat your
ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn."

Lightning Ricochet text "Any time you make a ranged attack with a thrown weapon on your turn, the weapon immediately returns to you, and you can catch it as a free action."

Will that not work then with thunderous throw because it makes it a melee attack?

Regardless i can use lightning ricochet to fly into one enemy, get the combo off, then fly into the next some 60ft away and do the same things for as many attacks as my full attack allows.(if it counts as a melee, otherwise every 2 attacks, the ranged then the melee).... Taking the negatives from the ranged increments, though... thunderous throw makes it treated as a melee attack... So, would I still take those negatives?. "Each full range increment of distance between an attacker using a ranged weapon and a target gives the attacker a cumulative -2 penalty on the ranged attack roll."

I would need to get pointblank shot and a level of warblade for the iron heart stance and strike though. Speaking of warblade, side note, I am surprised that adaptive style isn't a option for the bonus feats for warblade.

As long as I can get point blank shot somehow(only thing i could think of is my DM letting me trade my old Monk wis AC bonus for a feat) I could have all of that by level 18.

I'm thinking its the best synergy wise for the build. Would be even better if it has maneuver progression but alas...

What do you think?

[Rubik]

Alright.

I've gone ahead and threw in Cloistered Cleric at level 9 for those devotion feats. Travel for the extra swift move and air for the ranged miss chance for enemies I can't get to, plus ac bonus.


Main states for this build will be (in order of importance) Dex, Str, Wis
Race:Illusion human... Basically just a big bulky human really.


CL(Init Lvl)
(Level)Class
Feats/Class Abilities


1(1/2)
(1)Monk
Improved Unarmed Strike, Decisive Strike, Overwhelming Attack(Power Attack), AC Bonus(Wis),




Feat(Combat Expertise), Feat(Jotunbrud), Flaw(Expeditious Dodge), Flaw(Improved Trip)


2(1)
(2)Monk
Evasion, Overwhelming Attack(Improved Bullrush)


3(1 1/2)
(1)Fighter
Bonus Feat(Combat Reflexes), Feat(Karmic Strike)


4(2)
(2)Fighter
Dungeoncrasher 1


5(3)
(1)Swordsage
Quick to act 1, Discipline Focus(Spiked Chain)


6(4)
(1)Crusader
Feat(Knockback), Steely Resolve 5, Furious Counterstrike


7(5)
(2)Crusader
Stance(Thicket of Blades), Indomitable Soul


8(5 1/2)
(4)Fighter
Bonus Feat(Shock Trooper)


9(6)
(1)C. Cleric
Feat(Knock-down), Divine Spell Casting, Lore, Turn Undead, Domain Feat(Travel Devotion),




Domain Feat(Air Devotion)


10(6 1/2)
(5)Fighter



11(7)
(6)Fighter
Dungeoncrasher 2


12(8)
(2)Swordsage
Feat(Snap Kick), AC Bonus(Wis)(can wear light armour), Probably trade monk AC bonus for feat, Sun School if




decisive strike qualifies or Adaptive Style if it doesn't, Point Blank Shot for Bloodstorm if I go that route


13(9)
(3)Swordsage
+1 5th level Maneuver


Maneuvers at level 13
Known........SS8+C5=13
Readied.......SS5+C5(2)=8+3
Stances.......SS2+C2=4Looks okay to me so far. Though there's the cheap ring of entropic deflection in the MIC (pg 123) that grants a 20% miss chance against ranged weapons if you move 10' that round. That increases to 50% if you have a speed-boosting item, like the horned helm, a pair of boots with the horseshoes of speed attached, or a pair of psionic boots of skating. Buy the ring and a speed-boosting item and exchange Air Devotion for the Elf domain in the Spell Compendium for Point Blank Shot.

It's a thought, anyway.

Or you could take PBS in one of your feat slots and find another domain or Devotion feat that you want.

Also, swordsage effectively gets Weapon Focus with ALL of the weapons in the school you choose. So not just with the spiked chain.


Still haven't decided on where to take if after 13. I'm thinking of taking the prestige class The Bloodstorm Blade from ToB. Plus I get more fighter bonus feats allowing me to get some more of those feats. I gain throw anything allowing me to throw those fists then i get thunderous throw allowing me to take that thrown fist as a melee attack and if I hit use knock back/knockdown/snapkick etc.The only thing I don't care for about bloodstorm blade is its dependency on iron heart maneuvers. The school isn't very useful aside from Iron Heart Surge. Otherwise, it should segue well with what you've got.


Something I was wondering Thunderous throw text "As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn."

Lightning Ricochet text "Any time you make a ranged attack with a thrown weapon on your turn, the weapon immediately returns to you, and you can catch it as a free action."

Will that not work then with thunderous throw because it makes it a melee attack?It's still a ranged attack; you just treat it as a melee attack for most things, but it's still a ranged attack, and thus things that work with ranged attacks work with it. Or should, anyway. It's like how a monk's unarmed strikes count as manufactured weapons for spells and effects, but they're still natural weapons, which allows you to use effects that affect both manufactured AND natural weapons with them.


Regardless i can use lightning ricochet to fly into one enemy, get the combo off, then fly into the next some 60ft away and do the same things for as many attacks as my full attack allows.(if it counts as a melee, otherwise every 2 attacks, the ranged then the melee).... Taking the negatives from the ranged increments, though... thunderous throw makes it treated as a melee attack... So, would I still take those negatives?. "Each full range increment of distance between an attacker using a ranged weapon and a target gives the attacker a cumulative -2 penalty on the ranged attack roll."I think it would still take ranged penalties, since you're throwing yourself. You'd be knocked off balance for that attack (and any other attack that uses the same bonuses and penalties, such as Snap Kick). Subsequent melee attacks that are made after the ranged one are made normally (unless you make another ranged melee attack with ranged penalties, anyway). It's the price you pay for making ranged melee attacks.


I would need to get pointblank shot and a level of warblade for the iron heart stance and strike though. Speaking of warblade, side note, I am surprised that adaptive style isn't a option for the bonus feats for warblade.I don't think Adaptive Style was designed to be taken by anyone but swordsages, even if the feat actually works with any initiator.


As long as I can get point blank shot somehow(only thing i could think of is my DM letting me trade my old Monk wis AC bonus for a feat) I could have all of that by level 18.Well, there's always the Elf domain instead of Air Devotion, as I pointed out above.


I'm thinking its the best synergy wise for the build. Would be even better if it has maneuver progression but alas...

What do you think?Works for me.

[GenericClone]

Elf domain for PBS sounds like a good idea if i can't trade the ac bonus.

I also forgot to mention Thunderous Throw surrounds you in heat waves, it is literally like a Falcon Punch

Thanks for all the help everyone, especially you Rubik