Was anyone else rooting for Team Evil?

[Lord_Destron]

Hello lads and lassies,


I know this may sound a bit daft, but for a while there I was rooting for ol' RC and Xykon. They're pretty good, likable bad guys, and since, for plot purposes, the gate HAD to be taken/destroyed, I was kinda hopin' the lich and the gobbo would take one for team evil. Anyone else had that opinion?

...wait a minute...guys...where's Monster in the Dark!?

[jindra34]

Nope i never vote evil... for this very reason... i vote anti-hero very often though...

[Lord_Butters_I]

Well you knew Xykon and Redcloak weren't going to die. That was a flat out given. (well Xykon might have "died" but it wouldn't have been permanant. Gotta love a phylactory.) It was really just a question of "will they get the gate or not?"

[Ganurath]

The Monster in the Dark is having a riviting philosophical discussion with one Roy Greenhilt.

I was also rooting for team evil, if for no other reason than that Redcloak's reasons for hating the Sapphire Guard are virtually noble. I'm willing to bet that the goblinoids worship a CE deity for the express purposes of using the alignment relevant magic to combat the paladins.

[Lord Zentei]

Hello lads and lassies,

Hi, there.


I know this may sound a bit daft, but for a while there I was rooting for ol' RC and Xykon. They're pretty good, likable bad guys, and since, for plot purposes, the gate HAD to be taken/destroyed, I was kinda hopin' the lich and the gobbo would take one for team evil. Anyone else had that opinion?

While I do like Xykon and Redcloak and see where you're coming from, I have to echo jindra34. To the extent that the bad guys can still remain a formidable challenge, of course.


...wait a minute...guys...where's Monster in the Dark!?

That... is a good question.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I'm always for team evil, it's just a part of my subtype...

[Counterpower]

The Monster in the Dark is having a riviting philosophical discussion with one Roy Greenhilt.

I was also rooting for team evil, if for no other reason than that Redcloak's reasons for hating the Sapphire Guard are virtually noble. I'm willing to bet that the goblinoids worship a CE deity for the express purposes of using the alignment relevant magic to combat the paladins.

I was not. I was rooting for Soon Kim. Go army of ghostly paladins!!!!

That, though, is an interesting definition of noble. Since when did "burning down an entire city just to get back at the paladins who killed your relative for reasons we know nothing about" become noble? Seriously, since the vast majority of paladins haven't Fallen, I find it unlikely that they've been doing anything that would warrant an army burning down their city.

[Ganurath]

I was not. I was rooting for Soon Kim. Go army of ghostly paladins!!!!

That, though, is an interesting definition of noble. Since when did "burning down an entire city just to get back at the paladins who killed your relative for reasons we know nothing about" become noble? Seriously, since the vast majority of paladins haven't Fallen, I find it unlikely that they've been doing anything that would warrant an army burning down their city.

Point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html): Soon sent the Sapphire Guard on a campaign to 'wipe out' all who would threaten the Azure City Gate. It wouldn't take a Miko-esque leap in logic to include any threat to azure City as a whole in that, and thus anyone who bore open hostility to Azurites would be met with military force, potentially with the intent of genocide. After all, 'wipe out?'
Point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html): Whatever hostility holds toward goblinoids is grossly exaggerated, at best. Possibly even baseless, although I'll admit that that's highly unlikely.
Point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html): Redcloak dedicates the siege weapon assault to his mother's memory. From what we've seen, all of the goblinoid combatants so far have been male, which would lead one to assume that Redcloak's mother was a noncombatant.
Point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html): Redcloak mentions that the agenda of a bearer of the Crimson Mantle and/or servant of the Dark One is to see to the well being of the goblins. Even if it was a jump in logic to say annihilating Azure City served this purpose, Redcloak's leaps in logic have had an accuracy rate inversely proportional to those of Miko.
Point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html): Whatever the Sapphire Guard is doing, it's doing it on a scale that has Redcloak view them as a threat to his world, supporting the previous argument that they targetted noncombatants and that stating their agenda was genocidal.

In conclusion, I believe that the history behind the conflict is as so: prior to the adventures of the Order of the Backstory, goblinoids would raid other humanoid settlements for food and supplies, including settlements under the protection of Azure City. When Soon made his decree, the first target was goblinoids, since they openly attacked those under the care of the Azurites and thus the Sapphire Guard. Raids upon goblinoid villages would commence, slaughtering anyone who would take up arms to keep the apparent menace in check. As hostility and zealotry grew among the waning goblinoids, dogma similiar to that which Miko spouts in 371 (url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) works into the Sapphire Guard's view of the goblinoid religious institution, the Scarlet Mantle, to solidify the viewpoint that they threaten the gate. Any paladins who would Fall on such a crusade for smiting a noncombatant who happened to be evil would no doubt be granted an atonement spell, thanks to the abundance of clerics. Thus, goblinoids have had to face murderous crusades for the past two thirds of a century, which includes and goes beyond Redcloak's entire lifetime. All his life, this knightly order has butchered all those he hold dear and threatened his species with uncaring slaughter. Is putting an end to their bloody crusades noble? I say so.

[Bucephalus]

of course i was for team evil! they are much more lovable than team good as a whole.

[juggalotis]

i love evil yes i do,
i love evil how bout' you?

[Setra]

I...

Okay, I'll admit it, I was rooting for Elan.

[Ar-Sakal]

I like Belkar far more, and he up until now has sided with the good guys one way or the other.

Now, if Redcloack and Xykon decide to pursue and murder Miko in her sleep...

[Sergeantbrother]

I was really rooting for team evil too. Especially against the Azurites, who I don't particularly like. In a battle between Xykon and the Order of the Stick, its a much more difficult choice, but when its Azure City I pull for hobgoblins all the way. The only guy from Azure City I particularly liked was Lord Shojo.

[Neon Knight]

No, I was not rooting for Team Evil. I was rooting for Team Soon. A one ghost army of evil butt-kicking awesomeness.

[Skyserpent]

No, I was rooting for Team Good, but I do enjoy the presence of Team evil and would NOT like them getting the carp kicked out of them.

[DorimTrollfist]

Team Evil all the way!

OOTS does have very likable characters, but a team of PCs without a villain is like a musician without his instrument. You have got to love the villain that can make you cringe with the thoughts of what they can do, yet they can still give you a laugh or two.

[TheNovak]

Dude, I was so totally cheering for Team Evil from the moment Roy asked the Oracle where he was going. Their loss makes me sad inside.

Not that I wished any harm on Hinjo or the OotS, mind you. I just wanted a good, solid, mid-story win for the bad guys.

[Kreistor]

Team Evil was doomed to failure. We know that they will go after another Gate, which means Azure City's had to be destroyed. This should not have been a surprise to anyone.

[Demented]

But what do we do about the 15,000 hobgoblinns?

[Ridureyu]

But what do we do about the 15,000 hobgoblinns?

Use them for cheap labor. Kitchen work, landscaping, agriculture, janitorial services...

[Ganurath]

But what do we do about the 15,000 hobgoblinns?They took 50% casualties? They had the enemy outnumbered 3 to 10, and they bit it? Hobgoblins are statistically superior to humans on average in a straight fight with +2 Dex and +2 Con...

[Ithekro]

We will probably know more once "Start of Darkness" comes out.

I was all for the Ghosts of Soon to send Team Evil packing (which in some respects they did) but the needs of the story tend to outway the needs of the NPC....or the PC. :smallwink:

[inky13112]

I've been rooting for team evil for a while. And as opposed to all these OOTS lovers, I am rooting against the OOTS. I'd explain, but thats a topic for another thread. I agree that what the Goblinoids were doing was very noble. They are defending themselves from repeated attacks on themselves since the time of the founding of the Sapphire Guard and likely before. What do you expect them to do, sit there and wait for the next Attack where innocent civilians are killed and then only fight back?! I'm sorry, but thats just stupid. Sometimes you have to strike out for Family, Country, and Justice.

Admittedly I thought Azure City and the Sapphire Guard made a really good antagonist to the goblin protagonists. Every good protagonist needs a good antagonist and that antagonist was the Sapphire Guard. Throw in the main protagonists dramatic inner struggle to do what is right, and finally coming around and realizing his duty, leading to the dramatic charge and rush to the throne room, where after all that, all their effort, the good guys (Team Evil) were Slashed down by the enemy. Their last words rang out, before they were cruelly slain where they lay.

Hmm. As I wrote that I kind of saw the story in a whole new way from the Team Evil side, and wow, if they had died...

Well it was dramatic in my head.

So in summary Team Evil is who I was rooting for, with Azure City and the Sapphire Guard as their dramatic antagonist.

I deny the existence of the OOTS and LG.

[Demented]

They took 50% casualties? They had the enemy outnumbered 3 to 10, and they bit it? Hobgoblins are statistically superior to humans on average in a straight fight with +2 Dex and +2 Con...

It was a conservative estimate!

[Vampire_Boy]

Team Evil have more Fuzzy Cuteness! <3 Team Evil FTW! :smallbiggrin:

[ZedMenRa]

In many fantasy stories, and many D&D games in particular, villains are neither intuitive nor sympathetic. (Blah wants to destroy the city. Why? Because he worships an Evil Deity. Oh, OK.) That Order of the Stick has understandable, sympathetic and even likeable villains is the mark of a good story. However:

Premise 1: Killing innocents (and noncombatants) is an evil act.
Premise 2: Paladins who commit evil acts immediately lose their powers in a visible and dramatic fashion, and cannot regain them until they repent and change their ways (see atonement spell description.) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm)
Premise 3: Paladins did not fall en masse during the crusades, or the Gaurd would have stopped crusading and we would have heard about it.
Conclusion: Paladins did not kill innocents en masse during the crusades. Probably the goblins killed were part of an opposing army, or many small bands of raiders.

Redcloak can be sympathetic and swear vengeance all he wants (and he's a very well-developed character because of it,) but the fact is that the paladins cannot be evil under the rules and still be paladins. I don't want to say his mom deserved it, but her death was either a good or neutral act. Redcloak, whatever he may say, is in the wrong and probably misled.

Of course, Rich has bent rules to fit story before (with good reason) and the full story is probably told in Start of Darkness. But barring major author intervention, Redcloak can't be fighting for justice because there can't have been a crime. He is a sympathetic figure fighting for revenge, but he is evil, and the paladins are good.

Back on topic, Go Hinjo! Woo Blue Team!

[Ithekro]

Would killing Evil civilians be an act of willful evil according to the rules? Miko has reported killed people for nothing more than being Evil, yet she did not fall until she willfully killed a man who was not Evil.

Goblins, in this case are assumed to be Evil even if they don't commit evil acts. Redcloak, likely being Lawful Evil would see justice in defending or avenging his people from the acts of Good paladins. Point of view is everything when the use of Good and Evil are used to define a collective of people. The people killed might never have done anything that is evil, but still be classified as Evil under the rules. Thus begins a logic problem.

[TheNovak]

Within the rules, anything listed in the Monster Manual as "Evil" can be killed without a paladin being punished for it. The Giant even riffed on that in On the Origin of PCs.

It's part of why Miko got to be called Lawful Good for so long :smalltongue:

[Pronounceable]

...Sometimes you have to strike out for Family, Country, and Justice.


Stupid DnD alignment concept aside, you are aware that it's what Azurites did in the first place, right? Then goblins responded in kind and look where it got them...

[inky13112]

First. What makes you so sure that they were actual paladins doing the killing. It could have been simple foot soldiers, but still been the work of Azure City and the Sapphire Guard.

Second. As others have said, in the DnD world killing "evil" goblins, even non combatants, frequently comes down to how the DM interprets the Paladin code.


Stupid DnD alignment concept aside, you are aware that it's what Azurites did in the first place, right? Then goblins responded in kind and look where it got them...

All the way into the gates of Azure City, likely protecting them from more crusades for a good long while as it is rebuilt?

And yes of course thats what they did in the first place, which explains "But we do know that Soon sent his men and women on a crusade to wipe out all who would threaten the Azure City gate, no matter how far removed geographically." Which pretty clearly shows that they were attacking people who may have never even heard of Azure City, much less be planning an attack on it.

While they were at it they went ahead and went through some massive book burning as they "purged" all knowledge of the gates from the world.

Though it is kind of ironic that Azure City caused the attack on themselves. Whether Redcloak is justified or not, if it hadn't been for their crusades he would not have attacked them, and Azure City may well still be in nonburny condition today.

[Lord_Destron]

Good stuff everyone. I can definately see all your view points. Now, abot MiTD...

[Counterpower]

Point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html): Soon sent the Sapphire Guard on a campaign to 'wipe out' all who would threaten the Azure City Gate. It wouldn't take a Miko-esque leap in logic to include any threat to azure City as a whole in that, and thus anyone who bore open hostility to Azurites would be met with military force, potentially with the intent of genocide. After all, 'wipe out?'

That is inferring a lot from one line, IMO.


Point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html): Whatever hostility holds toward goblinoids is grossly exaggerated, at best. Possibly even baseless, although I'll admit that that's highly unlikely.

What have the goblins done, again? Can you tell me? I haven't seen any references to what the goblins were doing, which means we really have no idea whether the hostility is baseless or not.


Point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html): Redcloak dedicates the siege weapon assault to his mother's memory. From what we've seen, all of the goblinoid combatants so far have been male, which would lead one to assume that Redcloak's mother was a noncombatant.

Which is by no means correct. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. Or, in this case, not seeing any female goblin combatants is not proof that there aren't any female goblin combatants.


Point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html): Redcloak mentions that the agenda of a bearer of the Crimson Mantle and/or servant of the Dark One is to see to the well being of the goblins. Even if it was a jump in logic to say annihilating Azure City served this purpose, Redcloak's leaps in logic have had an accuracy rate inversely proportional to those of Miko.

Actually, I don't really consider slaying thousands of noncombatant civilians "serving the well being of the goblins." Remember, Azure City is NOT a military base, it is a large city. Not everyone in the city is a paladin or responsible for anything that the paladins may have done.


Point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html): Whatever the Sapphire Guard is doing, it's doing it on a scale that has Redcloak view them as a threat to his world, supporting the previous argument that they targetted noncombatants and that stating their agenda was genocidal.

Or that Redcloak's "Dark One" religion is diametrically opposed to the Sapphire Guard. People tend to get extremely fanatical about religious issues.


In conclusion, I believe that the history behind the conflict is as so: prior to the adventures of the Order of the Backstory, goblinoids would raid other humanoid settlements for food and supplies, including settlements under the protection of Azure City. When Soon made his decree, the first target was goblinoids, since they openly attacked those under the care of the Azurites and thus the Sapphire Guard. Raids upon goblinoid villages would commence, slaughtering anyone who would take up arms to keep the apparent menace in check. As hostility and zealotry grew among the waning goblinoids, dogma similiar to that which Miko spouts in 371 (url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0371.html) works into the Sapphire Guard's view of the goblinoid religious institution, the Scarlet Mantle, to solidify the viewpoint that they threaten the gate. Any paladins who would Fall on such a crusade for smiting a noncombatant who happened to be evil would no doubt be granted an atonement spell, thanks to the abundance of clerics. Thus, goblinoids have had to face murderous crusades for the past two thirds of a century, which includes and goes beyond Redcloak's entire lifetime. All his life, this knightly order has butchered all those he hold dear and threatened his species with uncaring slaughter. Is putting an end to their bloody crusades noble? I say so.

First point: the goblinoids were raiding villages and taking up arms to defend the raiders? Soon would have had every right to stop them from doing that, no?

Second point: you're assuming that Miko's views are more common in the Guard than, say, Hinjo's. Which, um, isn't correct. OOTS #265 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html) shows that well enough.

Finally: Is it noble to respond to bloody crusades destroying all you hold dear by, oh, launching a bloody crusade against those crusaders? Seems more hypocritical and Evil. Redcloak may have more interesting motivations than most, but in the end I see his attack of Azure City as "revenge at any price." He's out to get the Sapphire Guard, possibly for good reasons (that I still doubt), but he's going through an entire city of innocent victims to get to them.

EDIT: Oh, I missed this point.


I've been rooting for team evil for a while. And as opposed to all these OOTS lovers, I am rooting against the OOTS. I'd explain, but thats a topic for another thread. I agree that what the Goblinoids were doing was very noble. They are defending themselves from repeated attacks on themselves since the time of the founding of the Sapphire Guard and likely before. What do you expect them to do, sit there and wait for the next Attack where innocent civilians are killed and then only fight back?! I'm sorry, but thats just stupid. Sometimes you have to strike out for Family, Country, and Justice.

No, I don't expect that. I also would prefer not going out on a genocidal campaign of your own in that circumstance.

[Ganurath]

That is inferring a lot from one line, IMO.Let's minimize the inference and get straight to the meat: The Sapphire Guard had orders to wipe any threat off the face of the Material Plane if it was believed they were a threat to the gate. Apparently, this included the entire goblinoid subtype.
What have the goblins done, again? Can you tell me? I haven't seen any references to what the goblins were doing, which means we really have no idea whether the hostility is baseless or not.Judging by Redcloak's reaction to Miko's accusation, I'd say it's a fair bet that their reasoning was grossly exaggerated.
Which is by no means correct. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. Or, in this case, not seeing any female goblin combatants is not proof that there aren't any female goblin combatants.Given the number of combatants we have seen of both goblinoid races, I actually do believe that we have a fair survey for that assumption.
Actually, I don't really consider slaying thousands of noncombatant civilians "serving the well being of the goblins." Remember, Azure City is NOT a military base, it is a large city. Not everyone in the city is a paladin or responsible for anything that the paladins may have done.Taking out the military heart of the most active threat to goblinkind seems like a good way to serve the cause. The civilian section serves as a source of weapons, supplies, spells, and fresh recruits. Besides, many of the civilians were evacuated.
Or that Redcloak's "Dark One" religion is diametrically opposed to the Sapphire Guard. People tend to get extremely fanatical about religious issues.Considering the Redcloak has made a point of how many friends and loved ones the SG's crusades had cost him, I'm willing to bet good stock money that Redcloak has reason to view them as such a threat beyond mere zealotry.
First point: the goblinoids were raiding villages and taking up arms to defend the raiders? Soon would have had every right to stop them from doing that, no?This is a theory, and the one that provides the most rational reason I can think of for military response. Given the SG's orders, it's not unlikely that the cause was less rational. However, I should note that there is a great deal of difference between a raid for food and supplies and an attempt to annihilate a civilization.
Second point: you're assuming that Miko's views are more common in the Guard than, say, Hinjo's. Which, um, isn't correct. OOTS #265 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html) shows that well enough.Miko's views of life in general may be different, but we have seen nothing to even suggest that her views aren't a fair representation of the rest of the SG. After all, it's not like Miko was the sole participant of the crusades.
Finally: Is it noble to respond to bloody crusades destroying all you hold dear by, oh, launching a bloody crusade against those crusaders? Seems more hypocritical and Evil. Redcloak may have more interesting motivations than most, but in the end I see his attack of Azure City as "revenge at any price." He's out to get the Sapphire Guard, possibly for good reasons (that I still doubt), but he's going through an entire city of innocent victims to get to them.It may not be polished armor, blaring trumpets noble, no. This is eye for an eye, see how you like it justice, the dirtier noble. This is the sort of noble that's appropriate for someone who is Evil. As for the charging into the civilian area: This isn't raiding. This is conquest. Azure City will not be left in ruins. It will be inhabited by hobgoblins from here until a stronger force claims it. That includes the civilian area.
No, I don't expect that. I also would prefer not going out on a genocidal campaign of your own in that circumstance.So, rather than solving the problem permanently with a decisive attack on the main enemy military center, you'd think it more tactically sound to just raid, raid, raid, until goblinoids are reduced to bloodthirsty subsentient nomads, killing a hundred times more over generations than in the single stroke now?

LD: Reference the latest comic to see the current status of the MitD.

[delguidance]

I like the order, but in the war its been more of a gobbo vs. Azure city dichotomy. And in that conflict the lich and redcloak have been the flashiest and coolest. They get my vote.

Its like Batman's villains. They've got style. It's not about the straight forward evil, its about the craft of evil, setting new standards of evil. Their artists of evil.

[Counterpower]

Let's minimize the inference and get straight to the meat: The Sapphire Guard had orders to wipe any threat off the face of the Material Plane if it was believed they were a threat to the gate. Apparently, this included the entire goblinoid subtype.

How do you know that their crusade included the entire goblinoid subtype? Redcloak's statements aren't exactly the best source for that, considering he just might be a highly biased source.


Judging by Redcloak's reaction to Miko's accusation, I'd say it's a fair bet that their reasoning was grossly exaggerated.

So suddenly Redcloak is a reliable source? He's not! What's the reaction going to be from a Azurite who survives this battle? It's not going to be "Oh, they killed a lot of us, but they might have had good reason." It's going to be "Those scum destroyed my home and killed all of my friends!!!!!"


Given the number of combatants we have seen of both goblinoid races, I actually do believe that we have a fair survey for that assumption.

I admit it's not very likely that she was fighting, but I refuse to discount it as possible.


Taking out the military heart of the most active threat to goblinkind seems like a good way to serve the cause. The civilian section serves as a source of weapons, supplies, spells, and fresh recruits. Besides, many of the civilians were evacuated.

And if the goblins had only struck at the military installations and sent messages ahead ensuring that the civilians were evacuated, there would be a much stronger case for noble. Considering Redcloak didn't know that the civilians were evacuated, it can't be said that he's noble because they were. And you seem to be saying that it's noble for him to indisciminately slay civilians, the vast majority of which have nothing to do with this war.


Considering the Redcloak has made a point of how many friends and loved ones the SG's crusades had cost him, I'm willing to bet good stock money that Redcloak has reason to view them as such a threat beyond mere zealotry.

And you may be right, but are you absolutely sure that his motivation's entirely to protect goblins?


This is a theory, and the one that provides the most rational reason I can think of for military response. Given the SG's orders, it's not unlikely that the cause was less rational. However, I should note that there is a great deal of difference between a raid for food and supplies and an attempt to annihilate a civilization.

The SG wouldn't have gone after the goblins if they weren't a threat somehow. Considering that Hinjo's ideals are probably more common than Miko's, I believe "threat" would have been defined far more rationally than what you seem to expect. And you're still reasoning from only one line of text that the paladins' mission was genocidal.


Miko's views of life in general may be different, but we have seen nothing to even suggest that her views aren't a fair representation of the rest of the SG. After all, it's not like Miko was the sole participant of the crusades.

Please tell me you read the comic. Hinjo just seems to be better overall as a paladin than Miko is, and his lines in that comic suggest to me that Hinjo's views are far more common than Miko's are, especially panel 4's "What, you didn't think all paladins were like her, did you?" Which, unfortunately, seems to be the case here, if not among the OOTS.


It may not be polished armor, blaring trumpets noble, no. This is eye for an eye, see how you like it justice, the dirtier noble. This is the sort of noble that's appropriate for someone who is Evil. As for the charging into the civilian area: This isn't raiding. This is conquest. Azure City will not be left in ruins. It will be inhabited by hobgoblins from here until a stronger force claims it. That includes the civilian area.


noble
4. of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.
5. admirable in dignity of conception, manner of expression, execution, or composition: a noble poem.


There is no such thing as "dirtier noble." There is no such thing as "noble that's appropriate to someone who's Evil." (Never mind the fact that 99% of the Sapphire Guard, um, ISN'T EVIL, considering they haven't Fallen yet.) Is Redcloak's attack admirable in it's dignity? I would only agree to that if he kept the troops under strict control and only harmed the Sapphire Guard and/or the military. Which, considering that the city is in flames, I doubt that that happened. Is it of an exalted moral or mental character? Right. He's destroying the freaking city. (It is in flames, after all.) Destroying the homes and property of likely thousands of people that did nothing to the goblins at all isn't exalted in any way. Finally, "see how you like it" is not justice, it is hypocrisy. In doing this, Redcloak is saying, "See, you were right! Deavastating attacks on civilian popluations are a good idea!"


So, rather than solving the problem permanently with a decisive attack on the main enemy military center, you'd think it more tactically sound to just raid, raid, raid, until goblinoids are reduced to bloodthirsty subsentient nomads, killing a hundred times more over generations than in the single stroke now?

Well, I actually have several hundred more options than that. First of all, I find no evidence that Redcloak ever attempted to talk to Azure City. And before you say that's doomed to failure, I would like to point out that in a world of magic, just about anything is possible. If my far more noble goal was just to stop the assaults on the goblin populace, then priority number one is destroying all enemy forces in goblin lands. I have every right to do that. Priority number two is fortifying goblin lands to prevent future invasions. Again, there's no reason not to do this. Only after those two steps does priority number three need be considered. That would be going after the enemy's lands. Even if I did consider number 3 (after all, if number 2 was executed successfully, I wouldn't have much to worry about and wouldn't need to invade the enemy) I wouldn't crush the city under my heel. I would first attempt negotiation, with the fairly basic line "we'll leave you alone if you'll leave us alone." Considering that removes the threat we present to the Azure City gate without bloodshed, I don't see why a reasonable paladin like Hinjo would refuse. And then the problem is solved, without recourse to heavy weaponry. That is far more noble than mercilessly assaulting them just like they did to you. I don't consider hypocrisy to be noble.

[Ithekro]

Can I point out that Redcloak is admittedly a speciesist and hates all humans equally? Therefore killing civilians would be no different than killing soldiers aside that you'd rather kill soldiers first as they tend to fight back. The Paladins here, along with probably a good percentage of the human population would likely also be speciesist against goblins and follow the same pattern of logic. To the side that is being attacked, the horrors of their families being killed will reflect on their character, while the side doing the attacking would actaully care less...it was the enemy.

If the side doing the attacking never bothers to look closely at what they are doing, they'll never feel any real guilt in the action, and if the "game rules" say they can kill an Evil being without falling, a Paladin can kill as many goblin families as they wish. Thus shows a pattern from history of our own species when it comes to nationalism, propaganda, racism, and war. When good soldiers fight a hard fight and take losses, but win, then break through to an enemy town, bad things tend to happen. It is not an absolute, but it does happen, even to good people.

Redcloak is admittedly Evil. He knows this and seems to accept this. That doesn't mean he can't feel his cause is just, or "good" for his species. There are a lot of men that the world could classify as evil based on whom they served in times of war. Some of them were not evil, and even would say what they did was just and good. Some were actaully evil but would say the same thing and be correct from their point of view. In some cases the acts they are saying would be just and good would be from their side's perspective and if the situation were reversed from the "good" side's point of view as well. They might still be evil for other things they have done however.

[Counterpower]

Can I point out that Redcloak is admittedly a speciesist and hates all humans equally? Therefore killing civilians would be no different than killing soldiers aside that you'd rather kill soldiers first as they tend to fight back. The Paladins here, along with probably a good percentage of the human population would likely also be speciesist against goblins and follow the same pattern of logic. To the side that is being attacked, the horrors of their families being killed will reflect on their character, while the side doing the attacking would actaully care less...it was the enemy.

I agree on Redcloak. He has no problems with killing any human that he sees, and I doubt he'd order his forces to restrain themselves either. Which is part of the problem. Killing everyone in a large city, combatant or non, can't be justified with any reason. The paladins, though. Why is everyone assuming that they're speciesist and genocidal? These are paladins we're talking about. If it was a whole Guard full of Mikos, I'd be more willing to accept that they're genocidal, but it's not. I fully believe that the largest portion of the Guard is much more like Hinjo or a more ideal paladin; i.e. not given to quickly judge people based on race or alignment. Certainly not given to slaughter noncombatants. Sure, not all of the soldiers would have been paladins, but paladins are more likely to give troops orders to restrain themselves and more inclined to punish severely for disobedience of that order.


If the side doing the attacking never bothers to look closely at what they are doing, they'll never feel any real guilt in the action, and if the "game rules" say they can kill an Evil being without falling, a Paladin can kill as many goblin families as they wish. Thus shows a pattern from history of our own species when it comes to nationalism, propaganda, racism, and war. When good soldiers fight a hard fight and take losses, but win, then break through to an enemy town, bad things tend to happen. It is not an absolute, but it does happen, even to good people.

Yeah, people won't feel guilt about their actions if they don't bother to think about them. Then again, the game rules cause paladins to Fall for:

1. committing evil acts, under which genocidal actions definitely fall.
2. grossly violating the code of conduct, part of which states that they must punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Soldiers under their command looting and rampaging through noncombatants probably count in that category, so if the paladin turns a blind eye, they Fall.
3. changing alignment, which leaving a series of destroyed goblin villages behind might do that.

Those bad things do happen, but paladins who either participate or even allow it to happen Fall by the game rules.


Redcloak is admittedly Evil. He knows this and seems to accept this. That doesn't mean he can't feel his cause is just, or "good" for his species. There are a lot of men that the world could classify as evil based on whom they served in times of war. Some of them were not evil, and even would say what they did was just and good. Some were actaully evil but would say the same thing and be correct from their point of view. In some cases the acts they are saying would be just and good would be from their side's perspective and if the situation were reversed from the "good" side's point of view as well. They might still be evil for other things they have done however.

Of course he can believe that his cause is just. Few villians would say if asked that they were depraved men. In D&D, though, there is an absolute scale. Mass murder of innnocents and/or widespread destruction of the property of same is solidly Evil, and IMHO cannot under any stretch of the term be called noble.

[Deat're]

Point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html): Redcloak dedicates the siege weapon assault to his mother's memory. From what we've seen, all of the goblinoid combatants so far have been male, which would lead one to assume that Redcloak's mother was a noncombatant.


I always imagined that this dedication wasn't so much about avenging his mother who may or may not have been killed by a paladin, but more as making her proud of his efforts as an evil high priest.

"Aww, my little baby Redcloak, laying seige to Azure city! Laying waste to thousands of human lives! I'm so proud of you!"

Which sounds sufficiently evil and feels like it fits the character. Like the time Xykon was proud of him as he sent warriors for... 'scouting' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html) duty.


But yes, I was rooting for the Team Evil. Titanium elementals, an undead dragon, a Death knight and a heucuva won me over. The bouncing ball of insanity was the icing on top.

[Axl_Rose]

I was rooting for team evil, seriously czech my post history lol.

sigh, too bad though. I thought it was quite a touching moment when Xykon was like "we really had a shot at the prize for a minute there, didn't we?"

[Commander Hayes]

Actually, I was rooting for TE. If for no other reason than that I had literally made a bet that they'd win.

[Nathander]

I...

Okay, I'll admit it, I was rooting for Elan.

Same here. Certainly I'm not the only one interested in the full details of what Elan and Haley's plan might have been.

[mikeejimbo]

Yes, I was. And still am.