Miko needs to die...

[BlaineTog]

...and not because it's thematic, and not because the snarl would explode and kill her, but for one simple reason:

Because I will stop reading the comic if she doesn't.

I've been reading --and enjoying merrily-- Order of the Stick for years, since when the strips from the first book were still coming out or so, and it's been a real fun ride. I bought On the Origin shortly after it came out, and buying the other books has been on my "too-do" list for a while now (just as soon as I get enough money together such that I can buy them and still have enough money for furniture and such for my appartment next year). But Miko annoys me so much that I don't just get mad at her, but at the comic itself. Watching her is purely aggravating. I don't like it at all. Simply put, she makes the comic extremely unfun, and that bothers me to the point where I am willing to find other comics instead.

I say this out of nothing but anger and desperation. And this isn't a threat or anything (who and I to threaten?), I just really, really cannot stand reading about Miko anymore and needed someone to winge to.

[jindra34]

Ok. see ya...

[fruityjanitor]

I hear that Rich said Miko is going to be around til the end. Can't link you to where he said that or anything though. I think it is in one of the books maybe?

[Cyborg Pirate]

...and not because it's thematic, and not because the snarl would explode and kill her, but for one simple reason:

Because I will stop reading the comic if she doesn't.

I've been reading --and enjoying merrily-- Order of the Stick for years, since when the strips from the first book were still coming out or so, and it's been a real fun ride. But Miko annoys me so much that I don't just get mad at her, but at the comic itself. Watching her is purely aggravating. I don't like it at all. Simply put, she makes the comic extremely unfun, and that bothers me to the point where I am willing to find other comics instead.

And maybe I don't matter, but I'll bet there are at least 50 other people like me.

I say this out of nothing but anger and desperation.


I have to second this.

Many people here say that Miko is an interesting character. I don't. She irritates me every time I see her in the story and I've been rejoicing the fact that she was out of the comic for a while, and we focussed more on team evil and the oots.

Miko is the 7th wheel on a 4 wheel car. I don't care about seeing her in the story. Everytime she's in, she's taking time away from seeing the big main four - oots, team evil, the linear guild and the snarl.

Miko is like an abused GMPC to me, and I don't think there's anyone here who would enjoy that when playing in a game. God I hope she gets killed off soon. Let her death be the last time she hogs the spotlight.

[Lord Zentei]

...and not because it's thematic, and not because the snarl would explode and kill her, but for one simple reason:

Because I will stop reading the comic if she doesn't.

Oh. Well, that's unfortunate.

So long, then. :smallconfused:


Miko is like an abused GMPC to me, and I don't think there's anyone here who would enjoy that when playing in a game. God I hope she gets killed off soon. Let her death be the last time she hogs the spotlight.

You're thinking of this in terms of a game again, not a story. And the Snarl is a McGuffin, it hasn't really participated in the plot perse, beyond the flashback.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Simply put, she makes the comic extremely unfun, and that bothers me to the point where I am willing to find other comics instead.You cannot read other webcomics now? Seriously, I read about ten or so on a regular basis.

As for Miko dieing, that is the author's choice. If you choose not to read it because of that well I personally find that petty, but that is your decision and your personal choice is not going to change anyone's mind (except perhaps friends of yours). Also, a good author never makes decisions based on the comic's popularity and let's his artistic mind decide how things are going to be.

[Ridureyu]

Tsukiko's likely to become more annoying.

"See? I'm a know-it-all goth who hates authority! I AM COOL! LOVE ME!"

[Shatteredtower]

Tsukiko's likely to become more annoying.

"See? I'm a know-it-all goth who hates authority! I AM COOL! LOVE ME!"Oh, come on!

She'd only say that if you were... uh... post-mortal!

[Cyborg Pirate]

You're thinking of this in terms of a game again, not a story. And the Snarl is a McGuffin, it hasn't really participated in the plot perse, beyond the flashback.

I'm not thinking in game terms, I'm just using one to explain how I feel about it.

Miko isn't likable, nor admirable, nor respectable, nor just in her actions, nor even Remotely right about what she's been doing. As such, there's no joy for me in seeing her in this comic. There's no reason for me to enjoy seeing her anywhere. Especially when we also have 4 other Much more fun groups to focus on. And I read this comic for fun.

Also, the Snarl is a McGuffin yes, but it's also the main overarching Big Bad Evil of the plot. The Snarl may not get much screentime, but he sure as hell lurks in the back of our minds as we read the comic.

[Cyborg Pirate]

Also, a good author never makes decisions based on the comic's popularity and let's his artistic mind decide how things are going to be.

*points out gently that Rich does alter his story based on what he reads in the forums and that in the books it is implied that Miko wasn't intended to be so big in the story initially, and that her current involvement in the story may be a little due to the popularity she sparked when she first showed herself.*

[Ganurath]

*points out gently that Rich does alter his story based on what he reads in the forums and that in the books it is implied that Miko wasn't intended to be so big in the story initially, and that her current involvement in the story may be a little due to the popularity she sparked when she first showed herself.*So, shall this thread lead to the fulfillment of Belkar's Prophecy?

[Setra]

So, shall this thread lead to the fulfillment of Belkar's Prophecy?
Hardly, just because a few want it, does not mean he has to do anything.

If he did everything based on his readers, Miko would become a Blackguard, then atone, then suddenly fall in love with Belkar.

[Lord Zentei]

I'm not thinking in game terms, I'm just using one to explain how I feel about it.

Miko isn't likable, nor admirable, nor respectable, nor just in her actions, nor even Remotely right about what she's been doing. As such, there's no joy for me in seeing her in this comic. There's no reason for me to enjoy seeing her anywhere. Especially when we also have 4 other Much more fun groups to focus on. And I read this comic for fun.

Well, that's just too bad, isn't it?

Incidentally, the things you listed about her could just as easily be applied to Xykon and Nale. Yet, he does not receive such vitriol. I really don't think you are being entirely fair in your assessment. Certainly, she has been far more crucial to plot development than the Linear Guild.


*points out gently that Rich does alter his story based on what he reads in the forums and that in the books it is implied that Miko wasn't intended to be so big in the story initially, and that her current involvement in the story may be a little due to the popularity she sparked when she first showed herself.*

Minor things, perhaps. Not major ones. And as I recall, he claims to sometimes change things to the opposite of what people want and/or predict.

[Cyborg Pirate]

Incidentally, the things you listed about her could just as easily be applied to Xykon and Nale. Yet, he does not receive such vitriol. I really don't think you are being entirely fair in your assessment. Certainly, she has been far more crucial to plot development than the Linear Guild.

Xykon and Nale are both part of a bigger group with often much fun group interaction. Tell me, have you laughed about Miko lately? Ever? Both Xykon, Nale and their respective groups have been far more amusing to watch.

And being crucial to plot development is an author thing, not a character thing. Any other character could have been written to further the plot. Hell, other characters Have massively furthered the plot.

[CardinalFang]

So essentially this boils down to the whole "I want more one liners and D&D jokes and less plot and character development arcs" vs. "I want more characterization and deep plots and fewer throw-away gags" argument about whether or not OotS is going downhill/getting better? That's how it seems to be coming across to me.

[jindra34]

Xykon and Nale are both part of a bigger group with often much fun group interaction. Tell me, have you laughed about Miko lately? Ever?


Today and before that yesterday... her mix of zealotry, narcissium, and megalomania are quite funny...

[Lord Zentei]

Xykon and Nale are both part of a bigger group with often much fun group interaction. Tell me, have you laughed about Miko lately? Ever? Both Xykon, Nale and their respective groups have been far more amusing to watch.

Actually, yes, I have laughed. Not that laughing is a requisite for a character, even in a purely comedic strip: someone has to play the straight man. Not that OOTS is a pure gag strip either, anyway: it also has a more serious element, and one can appreciate and enjoy a character that isn't comical.


And being crucial to plot development is an author thing, not a character thing. Any other character could have been written to further the plot. Hell, other characters Have massively furthered the plot.

That's nonsense. You could just as easily claim that any character can be tossed out because in principle Rich could write someone else in. And no, Nale hasn't done nearly as much for the plot as Miko has, nor could he convinvincingly replace her without a major rewrite. Characters, including antagonists do things for reasons. Check out Rich's article on the matter.

[Setra]

Xykon and Nale are both part of a bigger group with often much fun group interaction. Tell me, have you laughed about Miko lately? Ever? Both Xykon, Nale and their respective groups have been far more amusing to watch.

And being crucial to plot development is an author thing, not a character thing. Any other character could have been written to further the plot. Hell, other characters Have massively furthered the plot.
Miko doesn't need to be funny, she's interesting. Funny doesn't make the world go round ya know, you must hate good books.

Dante's Inferno isn't funny, it sucks. Raistlin isn't funny, he sucks.

Ps. Miko can be funny anyways, I'd just like to stand by my original point.

Edit: On that note, Raistlin can be funny too.

[Adoniis]

BlaineTog & Cyborg Pirate

Finally people who agree with me. I'm so sick of Miko. I love this comic and all but I really dislike when Miko is in it, and have since the day she was introduced.

(**off topic**I was starting to get annoyed with Xykon... but I think I was wrong and was having a bad day. I'd really miss him if/when he's dead.)

**On Topic**


Miko doesn't need to be funny, she's interesting. Funny doesn't make the world go round ya know, you must hate good books.


How is she interesting? I see people keep saying that, yet hardly anyone says WHY she is interesting, beyond the fact that she is a completely self centered screw up.

[LordVader]

I hear you, brother. I like Xykon, he's "cool incompotent". Miko is just "incompotent incompotent".
She's really starting to anger me too. It scares me, I'm angry at a cartoon character!:smalleek:

[SurlySeraph]

I haven't laughed about Miko recently, no, but "The proper term is Smite Evil" more than makes up for all the missed laughs. She makes OOTS a lot more dramatic by her insanity, and her bitter humorlessness just accentuates how funny most of the characters are. The backlash against her is understandable, but she's really advanced the plot, helped develop most of the characters by how they reacted to her, and added a serious note that has made quite a few events much more gripping than they would have been if she hadn't been involved.

[Lord Zentei]

So essentially this boils down to the whole "I want more one liners and D&D jokes and less plot and character development arcs" vs. "I want more characterization and deep plots and fewer throw-away gags" argument about whether or not OotS is going downhill/getting better? That's how it seems to be coming across to me.

Pretty much. To be fair to the former group, OOTS did debut as a more gag-oriented strip, and not everyone agreed with the increased seriousness of the post-page-120 developments. But this tale has grown in the telling, and it is now more than it once was.

[CardinalFang]

Miko doesn't need to be funny, she's interesting. Funny doesn't make the world go round ya know, you must hate good books.

Dante's Inferno isn't funny, it sucks. Raistlin isn't funny, he sucks.

Ps. Miko can be funny anyways, I'd just like to stand by my original point.

Edit: On that note, Raistlin can be funny too.

The problem is that because OotS is nominally a comedy, there's a large bloc which thinks (and I'm not suggesting that they're wrong, simply that I disagree) that everything in it should be funny, and that plot < comedy, and that dramatic moments/strips/characters really have no place if they don't lead to a punchline.

[CardinalFang]

Pretty much. To be fair to the former group, OOTS did debut as a more gag-oriented strip, and not everyone agreed with the increased seriousness of the post-page-120 developments. But this tale has grown in the telling, and it is now more than it once was.

The "OotS isn't what it used to be" group is certainly entitled to their opinion about what they like best about the comic, but beyond a certain point it just starts to sound like an unwillingness to accept where Rich chooses to take his story. I think it begins to cross the line from "OotS needs more jokes" when it reaches the whole "this storyline sucks," "OotS is going downhill," "Rich is a hack," "I can't read this garbage anymore" stage.

[Lord Zentei]

The problem is that because OotS is nominally a comedy, there's a large bloc which thinks (and I'm not suggesting that they're wrong, simply that I disagree) that everything in it should be funny, and that plot < comedy, and that dramatic moments/strips/characters really have no place if they don't lead to a punchline.

That reminds me: there was also someone who complained in the Erfworld forum that he would lose interest in a good idea (meaning the Erfworld comic) if it didn't have a gag at the end of each installment.

Of course, part of the "good idea" that is Erfworld is that it specifically doesn't have that: it's more than just humour.

This seems somewhat similar.


The "OotS isn't what it used to be" group is certainly entitled to their opinion about what they like best about the comic, but beyond a certain point it just starts to sound like an unwillingness to accept where Rich chooses to take his story. I think it begins to cross the line from "OotS needs more jokes" when it reaches the whole "this storyline sucks," "OotS is going downhill," "Rich is a hack," "I can't read this garbage anymore" stage.

Agreed.

[jindra34]

The problem is that because OotS is nominally a comedy, there's a large bloc which thinks (and I'm not suggesting that they're wrong, simply that I disagree) that everything in it should be funny, and that plot < comedy, and that dramatic moments/strips/characters really have no place if they don't lead to a punchline.

The inferno was part of a comedy so it does qualify... and OOTS has evolved enough that it is no longer sutiable as a slap stick comedy which it started out as... and if that means fans leave... well i guess that may be a good thing...

[LordVader]

I love OOTS. Miko just annoys me, but I suspect that's Rich's intended use for her. As long as she dies at some point, it's cool.:smalltongue:

[SteveMB]

Xykon and Nale are both part of a bigger group with often much fun group interaction. Tell me, have you laughed about Miko lately? Ever?

Yes, actually. I find the pretzel logic she constructs to support her belief that she is more favored than ever by the Twelve Gods to be hilarious.

[Xeticus]

Miko is very annoying. Her lack of judgement, her awkward leaps of intuition that are so wrong. I think Miko is just stubbornly wrong that she's going to make herself an example of natural selection at work. No PC or NPC so hateful, so unlikeable, so bloodyminded can survive forever. Before she had her paladin powers and the backing of the sapphire guard. Now she has no one and she's got the judgement of a rotten turnip. I don't see how she survives her own stupidity. Characters after awhile almost write themselves. The writer just knows what the characters response would be. Miko is on a very self destructive path. The nature of the character i think will lead to her needing to be killed off.

[Setra]

The problem is that because OotS is nominally a comedy, there's a large bloc which thinks (and I'm not suggesting that they're wrong, simply that I disagree) that everything in it should be funny, and that plot < comedy, and that dramatic moments/strips/characters really have no place if they don't lead to a punchline.
If OOTS has no place for anything not comedy... Then why did Roy die?

OOTS is more than a comedy. It's also a great story, and Miko is a great character, to me.
How is she interesting? I see people keep saying that, yet hardly anyone says WHY she is interesting, beyond the fact that she is a completely self centered screw up.
To me, it is interesting, to see a character, who is an antagonist for other reasons, in other words, I like to see 'bad guys' who aren't trying to take over/destroy the world/kingdom, somesuch. Well not purposefully anyways.

She is fun to try and comprehend, and all in all I find her infinitely more interesting than Belkar.

What makes Belkar so interesting? Murder, sure, whatever, that gets old quick.

[jindra34]

Miko is very annoying. Her lack of judgement, her awkward leaps of intuition that are so wrong. I think Miko is just stubbornly wrong that she's going to make herself an example of natural selection at work. No PC or NPC so hateful, so unlikeable, so bloodyminded can survive forever. Before she had her paladin powers and the backing of the sapphire guard. Now she has no one and she's got the judgement of a rotten turnip. I don't see how she survives her own stupidity. Characters after awhile almost write themselves. The writer just knows what the characters response would be. Miko is on a very self destructive path. The nature of the character i think will lead to her needing to be killed off.

OK that seals it... Miko must die people are more irratating than Miko will be a blackgaurd people... Congratulations...

[Scarab83]

I don't like her as a character, and I would love to see her get her ass kicked, but I don't think it would be the same story without her.

She is, however, bat-**** crazy.

[CardinalFang]

The inferno was part of a comedy so it does qualify... and OOTS has evolved enough that it is no longer sutiable as a slap stick comedy which it started out as... and if that means fans leave... well i guess that may be a good thing...

I wouldn't say I want anyone to stop reading OotS (and I suspect that a lot of the "I'm going to quit" people don't quit at all), but I certainly do think that throwing forum tantrums because Rich isn't writing the strips you want him to write is not only unfair to the other forumgoers, but unfair to Rich himself. He's writing an amazing story, which he's choosing to share with us (free of charge, which makes it even better), and I think anything which strays from the realm of valid criticism doesn't really have any place on a forum meant for discussing the comic.

[CDR Grendelwulf]

Of course she needs to die...

...how else will she meet up with Roy's spirit in the afterlife of the twelve gods so they can go on their buddy-spirit-quest! Hilarity will surely ensue...

Years ago, I DM'd games with a player who played their characters with pretty much the same sense of self-importance. They could justify any act no matter how evil, random, silly, etc...in their own minds of course...It would be a challenge for the other players to be sure, but it also led to some great drama and plot twists.

MIko is actually much like Belkar when you think about it.

Hmm, here's a thought...what if Roy's "player" has gotten tired of the character and his 2nd permanent character is....MIKO!!! Woo-hoo!

Ciao,
CDR Grendelwulf

[SurlySeraph]

The inferno was part of a comedy so it does qualify... and OOTS has evolved enough that it is no longer sutiable as a slap stick comedy which it started out as... and if that means fans leave... well i guess that may be a good thing...

The Divine Comedy isn't a comedy as in "funny." It's a comedy as in "not historically based and doesn't have a tragic ending." When it was written, comedy wasn't necessarily defined as funny, just as non-sad.

[Setra]

OK that seals it... Miko must die people are more irratating than Miko will be a blackgaurd people... Congratulations...
I, personally, find Miko will be a Blackguard people humorous.

This is just kind of annoying.
Of course she needs to die...

...how else will she meet up with Roy's spirit in the afterlife of the twelve gods so they can go on their buddy-spirit-quest! Hilarity will surely ensue...
With possible, potential humor in the future.

[Cyborg Pirate]

So essentially this boils down to the whole "I want more one liners and D&D jokes and less plot and character development arcs" vs. "I want more characterization and deep plots and fewer throw-away gags" argument about whether or not OotS is going downhill/getting better? That's how it seems to be coming across to me.

Bull. Good character developement and deep plots do Not require Miko. We can do very well without her. There are many more interesting characters to be seen developed other then her. As long as she's around, she's hogging that spotlight.



Today and before that yesterday... her mix of zealotry, narcissium, and megalomania are quite funny...


Actually, yes, I have laughed. Not that laughing is a requisite for a character, even in a purely comedic strip: someone has to play the straight man. Not that OOTS is a pure gag strip either, anyway: it also has a more serious element, and one can appreciate and enjoy a character that isn't comical.

That's nonsense. You could just as easily claim that any character can be tossed out because in principle Rich could write someone else in. And no, Nale hasn't done nearly as much for the plot as Miko has, nor could he convinvincingly replace her without a major rewrite. Characters, including antagonists do things for reasons. Check out Rich's article on the matter.

Then maybe that's where our differences lie, for I do not find Miko funny in the least. I have a serious dislike for ignorance, stupidity, zealotry and self-righteousness.

Nale Couldn't do any more for the plot because Miko was hogging that spotlight. And no, no any character can be thrown out, but as I said, Miko is the 5th wheel. She's unnessecary. She's done a lot for the story yes, but a much more interesting character could have done so too.



The "OotS isn't what it used to be" group is certainly entitled to their opinion about what they like best about the comic, but beyond a certain point it just starts to sound like an unwillingness to accept where Rich chooses to take his story. I think it begins to cross the line from "OotS needs more jokes" when it reaches the whole "this storyline sucks," "OotS is going downhill," "Rich is a hack," "I can't read this garbage anymore" stage.

I start reading a story for a reason, and I may continue reading for a different reason. But if there's no enjoyment for me in continuing reading, I don't.

I used to like to read Sluggy Freelance. I read it for a long time. But after some time, the story just failed to grip me, and after a while, I just didn't feel compelled anymore to return to the site.

Nothing's wrong with Rich's storytelling skills. Hell, they're Great. But Miko is one character I wouldn't miss for a second if she were to just disappear from the story without a trace.

[chardbs]

If youre leaving, can I have your stuff?

[CardinalFang]

If OOTS has no place for anything not comedy... Then why did Roy die?

OOTS is more than a comedy. It's also a great story, and Miko is a great character, to me.
I did say that I didn't agree with that statement. I love the dramatic tension, the characterization, and the overarching plotlines. I even like the weekend cliffhangers (although of course I obsessively mash F5 on comic day just like everyone else).


To me, it is interesting, to see a character, who is an antagonist for other reasons, in other words, I like to see 'bad guys' who aren't trying to take over/destroy the world/kingdom, somesuch. Well not purposefully anyways.

She is fun to try and comprehend, and all in all I find her infinitely more interesting than Belkar.

What makes Belkar so interesting? Murder, sure, whatever, that gets old quick.

They each have their roles to play. As Belkar said, not everyone can be the straight man in a comic. As long as people appreciate the characters for their given roles, and not try to force them into a different one, the comic fits together as a seamless whole.

[Scarab83]

If youre leaving, can I have your stuff?

I'm in your account, sharding your purples.

[Lord Zentei]

Bull. Good character developement and deep plots do Not require Miko. We can do very well without her. There are many more interesting characters to be seen developed other then her. As long as she's around, she's hogging that spotlight.

They do not require her, but she enables them.


Then maybe that's where our differences lie, for I do not find Miko funny in the least. I have a serious dislike for ignorance, stupidity, zealotry and self-righteousness.

As do I. However, I can distinguish between fact and fancy, thus I also enjoy reading comics with Xykon in it, even though megalomania and misanthropy are things I detest also. It seems to me that you're applying a double standard here, since I'm sure you'll agree with me on Xykon's foibles being vile.


Nale Couldn't do any more for the plot because Miko was hogging that spotlight. And no, no any character can be thrown out, but as I said, Miko is the 5th wheel. She's unnessecary. She's done a lot for the story yes, but a much more interesting character could have done so too.

Nale couldn't do more for the plot in that situation because he is not designed to. His actions follow from his character design, not the whims of the author, if he is to be well written. And what's this with her not being interesting? That's nonsense, mate.


I start reading a story for a reason, and I may continue reading for a different reason. But if there's no enjoyment for me in continuing reading, I don't.

Sure.

[Setra]

I did say that I didn't agree with that statement. I love the dramatic tension, the characterization, and the overarching plotlines. I even like the weekend cliffhangers (although of course I obsessively mash F5 on comic day just like everyone else).Oh, I know, I was just making that statement generally, not at you. Sorry if it seemed like it :smalltongue:



They each have their roles to play. As Belkar said, not everyone can be the straight man in a comic. As long as people appreciate the characters for their given roles, and not try to force them into a different one, the comic fits together as a seamless whole.
Oh I know, even though I dislike Belkar, I admit the comic would be very different without him.

[CardinalFang]

CP, I don't feel like quoting that massive reply (sorry), so here goes.

You say character development and deep plots don't require Miko. Sure, they don't. They don't require anyone. Rich could have written the comic without Roy, and had someone else in his place. But the comic as it is has Roy. And it has Miko. She is a deep, complex character whose actions have furthered the plot in so many ways. She has gone on a fascinating journey of the course of the last few hundred strips. She will continue on her journey until it reaches some unknown destination. Therefore, she IS characterization and plot. That's not to say that characterization and plot ARE Miko, but that's not what I was saying. I was responding to the wealth of "I don't like Miko because she's not funny." I think most people dislike her as a person (as you seem to), but that doesn't mean she's not a wonderfully-written character who has placed a truly difficult problem before the heroes of the story.

And just because you wouldn't mind if Miko simply vanished doesn't mean you can't enjoy the entire comic anymore. You may be angry that she's hogging the spotlight, but I'm sure she'll move out of the picture soon enough (presumably by the end of the Azure City storyline). Every antagonist gets their turn in the spotlight: Cliffport, the Watchtowers, the trial, etc. Miko's turn will pass, and the story will continue on. I don't see any reason to stop reading simply because of a couple strips in a row.

[teratorn]

This is the kind of thread I don't understand. Are you trying to get enough support to pressure the author?


*points out gently that Rich does alter his story based on what he reads in the forums and that in the books it is implied that Miko wasn't intended to be so big in the story initially, and that her current involvement in the story may be a little due to the popularity she sparked when she first showed herself.*

From the comments in Paladin Blues:
«Honestly, I think she's a lot more interesting as she is, even if the original plan might have been more popular»

I remember people saying they would stop reading the strip if Miko joined the order as soon as she made her debut. What you're doing here is not new.

[Cyborg Pirate]

They do not require her, but she enables them.

As any other character can be created to enable them. Or better, group of characters. There is no strict neccesity for Miko's brand of insanity.




As do I. However, I can distinguish between fact and fancy, thus I also enjoy reading comics with Xykon in it, even though megalomania and misanthropy are things I detest also. It seems to me that you're applying a double standard here, since I'm sure you'll agree with me on Xykon's foibles being vile.

I agree Xykon's foibles are vile, but Xykon's sillyness makes him still likable as a character. Especially when he's backed up by Redcloak. It doesn't always have to be comedy (like Xykon's line in todays strip) to be likable.




Nale couldn't do more for the plot in that situation because he is not designed to. His actions follow from his character design, not the whims of the author, if he is to be well written. And what's this with her not being interesting? That's nonsense, mate.

Nale himself not maybe, but Nale is part of a larger group which has cycled new members. This allows the group as a whole to be written sometimes do things and cause things in the way Miko has, without having one Miko hanging around all the time.

And it's perhaps different for you, but watching a nutcase lose it more and more every step of the way is hardly interesting to me. Miko hold no surprises for me. I had already predicted long ago that she would keep loosing it more and more and perform more and more screw-ups as the story progresses. Before seeing this comic, I had already expected that Miko once out of jail would just do something that would screw it up for the good guys. From now on, Miko either gets worse, or gets worse and then has a major change and gets better. Two ways to take her character in, I do not find that particularly interesting.

[Luklan]

The "OotS isn't what it used to be" group is certainly entitled to their opinion about what they like best about the comic, but beyond a certain point it just starts to sound like an unwillingness to accept where Rich chooses to take his story. I think it begins to cross the line from "OotS needs more jokes" when it reaches the whole "this storyline sucks," "OotS is going downhill," "Rich is a hack," "I can't read this garbage anymore" stage.

QFT.

Personally, you're taking this far too seriously if you're going to leave just because Miko's in it. Kill off Miko or you leave? Then leave. I can't speak for Rich, but if I were in his shoes and I read two people basically whine about how if they don't get their way, they'll leave, I'd say "Oh, well that's too bad... Have a nice life!". Why? Because there are obviously plenty of other fans here who are willing to stick with it.

It's his damn comic people. He can do whatever he wants. You want a comic exactly the way you want it, go make one.

Me, I hate Miko. I know a Miko in real life, she's an absolute pain in the ass. But whatever, it's a comic. Fact vs Fantasy. That's why I (Like Lord Zentei), can mostly enjoy Xykon and Redcloak as characters. They're evil, and Xykon's proven that, but they're still just characters. Heck, I was rather horrified, and felt just a little queasy, at what Xykon did to the Sapphire Guard, but that didn't make me want to quit reading.

[Lord Zentei]

As any other character can be created to enable them. Or better, group of characters. There is no strict neccesity for Miko's brand of insanity.

So?


I agree Xykon's foibles are vile, but Xykon's sillyness makes him still likable as a character. Especially when he's backed up by Redcloak. It doesn't always have to be comedy (like Xykon's line in todays strip) to be likable.

Glad to hear it. Seems you can't appreciate Miko's silliness, nor the fact that she manages to be interesting despite not being a gag character through more layers of complexity.


Nale himself not maybe, but Nale is part of a larger group which has cycled new members. This allows the group as a whole to be written sometimes do things and cause things in the way Miko has, without having one Miko hanging around all the time.

Seeing as Nale would insist on being the star of the group, that is a rather suspect statement.


And it's perhaps different for you, but watching a nutcase lose it more and more every step of the way is hardly interesting to me. Miko hold no surprises for me. I had already predicted long ago that she would keep loosing it more and more and perform more and more screw-ups as the story progresses. Before seeing this comic, I had already expected that Miko once out of jail would just do something that would screw it up for the good guys.

Of course she was going to escape and screw things up. So? We also knew that Team Evil would almost succeed in capturing the gate only to blow it, and that the Linear Guild would get away in the confusion.


From now on, Miko either gets worse, or gets worse and then has a major change and gets better. Two ways to take her character in, I do not find that particularly interesting.

Nice black/white fallacy. Here's another one: Nale will either die or he won't die.

It's not just where you're going, its how you get there.

[Skyserpent]

Miko is lessening my enjoyment of the comic currently, yes. But come on. You have to admit, that entire section where she FELL? That was FANTASTIC. Her going bat-*** crazy and killing Shojo? EVERYONE hated her... (Except for the few who hated Shojo... no comment) And a lot of people made the same threat. But THEN, Hinjo and Roy got to flaunt their badassitude. That was BRILLIANT. I enjoyed that more than anything I had seen previously. And afterwards I was still okay with Miko's presence. I mean, she's an interesting character who right now is extremely frustrating due to her ignorance, (I can relate to hatred of ignorance, I see it all the time on these forums...)


now then, I have another question: Would you prefer Miko to not be in the comic? Or would you prefer Xykon and Redcloak to DIE? From their perspective this was great! I mean, if she hadn't distracted Soon they'd BOTH be biting the dust right now. I mean sure the gate is busted but come on the Gate NEEDED to be broken. If it wasn't then Xykon and Redcloak could take one day to get fully healed and come back and kick EVERYONE's ass. It took all those ghosts and Soon AND Redcloak losing his high level Cleric Spells to lose. If Xykon just uses Greater Invisibility and Overland Flight...well... there's no WAY that Gate is staying un-smashed.

So it's up to you: Accept that Miko Destroying the Gate was a completely reasonable thematic decision, or present evidence against it in the context of the comic. (i.e. No "I just don't like her" jarble)

[Cyborg Pirate]

CP, I don't feel like quoting that massive reply (sorry), so here goes.

That's ok



I was responding to the wealth of "I don't like Miko because she's not funny." I think most people dislike her as a person (as you seem to), but that doesn't mean she's not a wonderfully-written character who has placed a truly difficult problem before the heroes of the story.

I often prefer funny, but I don't require it. The scene of Haley hugging Elan after that speech from O-chul? Brilliant! Xykon's line today? Love it! All the other characters are likable, even when they're serious or semi-serious (possibly not likable during the seriousness itself, but likable because we also know them in other situations).

And I have to disagree with wonderfully written. There hasn't been much development with her character other then the constant degradation of her sanity. I saw where the story was going with her a Long while ago, while I could not have predicted how the rest of the characters have developed.



And just because you wouldn't mind if Miko simply vanished doesn't mean you can't enjoy the entire comic anymore. You may be angry that she's hogging the spotlight, but I'm sure she'll move out of the picture soon enough (presumably by the end of the Azure City storyline). Every antagonist gets their turn in the spotlight: Cliffport, the Watchtowers, the trial, etc. Miko's turn will pass, and the story will continue on. I don't see any reason to stop reading simply because of a couple strips in a row.

Oh I did not say I would stop now. I'm ferverently hoping that her time on-screen will pass quickly. However, if she stays on-screen for far too long, I know that the day will come that I'm checking my morning webcomics, and neglect to click on Oots because I feel no more need to. And this prospect saddens me, as at the moment Oots is my favourite webcomic in my list.

[PsyBlade]

Miko scares me. And not in the spine-tingling ways.

[Lord Zentei]

And I have to disagree with wonderfully written. There hasn't been much development with her character other then the constant degradation of her sanity. I saw where the story was going with her a Long while ago, while I could not have predicted how the rest of the characters have developed.

No? That seems very odd indeed, seeing as those characters who have shown any development developed in a pretty logical fashion. I was hardly surprised by any of them, even though I enjoyed the show.

Nor was Miko's fall inevitable, as she could have pulled away before then. If I may be so bold, could it be that your dislike of her personality is spilling over into your analysis of her as a character and story enabler, and the fact that you deemed she would not do so was a function of your already-existing dislike?

[Cyborg Pirate]

So?

And I'm to respond to this with intelligent argument, how?




Glad to hear it. Seems you can't appreciate Miko's silliness, nor the fact that she manages to be interesting despite not being a gag character through more layers of complexity.

Layers of complexity? I really can't understand where those layers are. All Miko has shown is a one-dimensional fall. Any complexity she might have is purely in the forums in all the "what if's" posts about her.




Seeing as Nale would insist on being the star of the group, that is a rather suspect statement.

Did not the druid star alone?




Of course she was going to escape and screw things up. So? We also knew that Team Evil would almost succeed in capturing the gate only to blow it, and that the Linear Guild would get away in the confusion.

Yes, but I did not predict that team evil would be headed for Azure city until the oracle. I did not predict the linear guild's transference to azure city prisons when Nale was still recruiting members to fill the ranks. But I did predict Miko's fall not too long after she were introduced.




Nice black/white fallacy. Here's another one: Nale will either die or he won't die.

It's not just where you're going, its how you get there.

Nale die or no die has nothing to do with however the process goes of him getting there. It would have been a black and white fallacy if I had said "Miko will die or will not die".

Miko will atone or not atone (atone in the loosest sense of the word for ease of discussion) is about the path she will take, and tell me now if you can think of a third path that wouldn't be out of character for her?


[edit] Dammit I got to quit posting. The bloody sun is up again.

[Setra]

And I'm to respond to this with intelligent argument, how?
All I'm gonna say is..

How is "Miko isn't needed" an intelligent arguement?

Ya know, technically Redcloak isn't needed, Belkar, Haley.. Elan.. they all should die.

What an arguement, eh?

[Cyborg Pirate]

All I'm gonna say is..

How is "Miko isn't needed" an intelligent arguement?

Ya know, technically Redcloak isn't needed, Belkar, Haley.. Elan.. they all should die.

What an arguement, eh?

Redcloak is needed to provide contrast with Xykon's whimsical character.

Belkar is needed to contrast with Roy's goodness.

Haley is needed to provide a contrast to Roy's (clumsy in many cases) honesty.

Elan is needed to provide contrast to Roy's seriousness.


Redcloak and Xykon are a group and constantly play off each other. Same with the others.



So, you were saying?

[Lord Zentei]

And I'm to respond to this with intelligent argument, how?

Well, you tell me. Your initial statement left little to discuss, as you were stating the obvious.


Layers of complexity? I really can't understand where those layers are. All Miko has shown is a one-dimensional fall. Any complexity she might have is purely in the forums in all the "what if's" posts about her.

She has shown more in the ways of conflicting personality and ideals than any other character, if you'd bother to look.


Did not the druid star alone?

No, he did not. He was a momentary distraction. To think that he was the star of the Cliffport episode is pretty disingenious, frankly, given Nale's accomplishment there.


Yes, but I did not predict that team evil would be headed for Azure city until the oracle. I did not predict the linear guild's transference to azure city prisons when Nale was still recruiting members to fill the ranks. But I did predict Miko's fall not too long after she were introduced.

See my point above. And you did not predict any more than that, in any case.


Nale die or no die has nothing to do with however the process goes of him getting there. It would have been a black and white fallacy if I had said "Miko will die or will not die".

Miko will atone or not atone (atone in the loosest sense of the word for ease of discussion) is about the path she will take, and tell me now if you can think of a third path that wouldn't be out of character for her?

Nonsense: "Nale will die or not die" is the same damn black/white fallacy as "Miko will atone or not atone". Can you think of a third fate for him?


Redcloak is needed to provide contrast with Xykon's whimsical character.

Belkar is needed to contrast with Roy's goodness.

Haley is needed to provide a contrast to Roy's (clumsy in many cases) honesty.

Elan is needed to provide contrast to Roy's seriousness.


Redcloak and Xykon are a group and constantly play off each other. Same with the others.



So, you were saying?

How is Miko "not needed" in that sense? You claim that others could be written into her place, but the same holds for all the characters named above.

[Skyserpent]

If you stop reading OotS because you don't like Miko, then that's fine, no one here is going to stop you, but some of us trust Rich to do a good job, as he's done in the past. Scrubbed.

[Setra]

Redcloak is needed to provide contrast with Xykon's whimsical character.

Belkar is needed to contrast with Roy's goodness.

Haley is needed to provide a contrast to Roy's (clumsy in many cases) honesty.

Elan is needed to provide contrast to Roy's seriousness.


Redcloak and Xykon are a group and constantly play off each other. Same with the others.

So, you were saying?
Needed?

No he isn't. They aren't needed whatsoever, those are just excuses.

Xykon is needed because he is the BBEG, Roy is needed because he is the "Good guy". Technically, they are the only ones who "need" to be there.

By your logic....

Miko is needed to contrast to the sanity of Hinjo, and be an overall good bad guy.
Who foresaw that Elan would get laid?
Ooh! Ooh! Me! Me!

[Demented]

Alright then...

Who foresaw that Roy would die?

Who foresaw that Elan would get laid?

Who foresaw that Durkon... pretty much still has yet to do anything? (Everyone, actually.)

Who foresaw that Belkar and the EoFaF would be a match made in hell?


Now, let us bear in mind that being entirely unable to see what was going to happen is not the measure of a well-written character. It is the measure of a well-written story. The measure of a well-written character is that everything the character does is predictable and insightful to the character's nature, while still being flexible enough to deal with day-to-day challenges.... The measure of a well-written character in a well-written story is that you have no idea what's going to happen... But once it happens, it makes complete sense for how and why it happened!

With Miko, there is no understanding. She's bonkers. That covers nearly all of her extremely... nutty... actions, and there's little further justification. You have a modicum of acknowledgement for why she went over the edge, but, that's it. That's all there is, folks.

But she sho' is fun to hate. She's like the comic relief, only she's less comic and more macabre... Though, smashing the sapphire like that, she's almost a mockery of her role.


Oh nuts, my pen runneth over again.

[Corsair]

Oh, please. Miko is little more than a Lawful Good Belkar, except not funny, tall, and female. She doesn't increase the quality of the comic, she saps it. In the past two hundred comics, I've laughed a handful of times when she was in the comic. Every time it's been because of her being harmed, like being whacked with a lead sheet, set on fire, stabbed, and smacked halfway across a room, followed by a kick in the head. Haley's cryptograms were more amusing than her.

My favorite comic with Miko in it? 200. When she kept her mouth shut most of the time. It would have been better if she remained the faceless blue-clad katana-wielding lunatic. Oh, wait, she still is, except for the faceless and the blue part.

Miko would be better off dead, frankly. And considering she's a traitor, a murderer, is endangering the fate of the universe, is such a hideous hypocrit (She arrested OOTS in the first place for destabilizing the universe. SHE JUST DID THE EXACT SAME THING) plus she's the only target an Epic-Level, really pissed Paladin has now, if she leaves the Throne Room by any exit other than the freaking window I'll be stunned. Although I wouldn't mind her leaving it in a body bag after having an encounter with Belkar's Talking Skull.

[EvilElitest]

Miko is very annoying. Her lack of judgement, her awkward leaps of intuition that are so wrong. I think Miko is just stubbornly wrong that she's going to make herself an example of natural selection at work. No PC or NPC so hateful, so unlikeable, so bloodyminded can survive forever. Before she had her paladin powers and the backing of the sapphire guard. Now she has no one and she's got the judgement of a rotten turnip. I don't see how she survives her own stupidity. Characters after awhile almost write themselves. The writer just knows what the characters response would be. Miko is on a very self destructive path. The nature of the character i think will lead to her needing to be killed off.
Note that Rich doesn't justify her actions so far


Really people, i don't like miko as a person, though i do like her as a character concept, very clever and really people, she is a villian, she is ment to be hated. She isn't a villian in the same sense as RedCloak and Xykon or even Nale, but still a villian.
Oh setra, i like Belkar because of his wit and his evil plans more than his deeds


And I'm to respond to this with intelligent argument, how?
Because your basiclly whining, or at least griping. Your argument is that Miko is unessary, and are saying that team Evil and LG fill the villan niche. Why? Miko has had just as much time and character devolpment as them. All three villians are different and are evil in their own way

Miko zealotry and insanity is what make her evil.


from,
EE

[Lord Zentei]

Oh, please. Miko is little more than a Lawful Good Belkar, except not funny, tall, and female. She doesn't increase the quality of the comic, she saps it. In the past two hundred comics, I've laughed a handful of times when she was in the comic. Every time it's been because of her being harmed, like being whacked with a lead sheet, set on fire, stabbed, and smacked halfway across a room, followed by a kick in the head. Haley's cryptograms were more amusing than her.

Apart from the Azure City arc basically being driven by her actions, of course...


Miko would be better off dead, frankly. And considering she's a traitor, a murderer, is endangering the fate of the universe, is such a hideous hypocrit (She arrested OOTS in the first place for destabilizing the universe. SHE JUST DID THE EXACT SAME THING) plus she's the only target an Epic-Level, really pissed Paladin has now, if she leaves the Throne Room by any exit other than the freaking window I'll be stunned. Although I wouldn't mind her leaving it in a body bag after having an encounter with Belkar's Talking Skull.

Ah, that's dislike for the personality talking, and spilling over into analysis of the character.

[Setra]

I'd say Good Villians aren't appreciated in a humor based webcomic.

Well looks like LFG isn't going to have any good villians, or if they are, they'll be hated in the wrong way.

[Lord Zentei]

I'd say Good Villians aren't appreciated in a humor based webcomic.

Indeed this seems to be the case. Too much expectation on gags.


Well looks like LFG isn't going to have any good villians, or if they are, they'll be hated in the wrong way.

What's LFG? :smallconfused:

[FdL]

OP is wrong. Miko has always been an interesting character and the current developments only add to the story and the drama. I like dramatic things happening to this comic, things that make your mind boggle and make you think "what's going to happen next" or "how could this possibly end".

So for everyone who likes the comic it will be more interesting to see what happens to her than to have her killed and taken out of the comic.

I also kinda don't like the title of the thread. Makes me think of an authoritarian and intolerant attitude, in which someone "kills" or "eliminates" something just because he doesn't like it...I don't know, I can't put my finger on it and I'm not saying the OP intended this, but it seems like that.

[pendell]

Some thoughts:

1) I can't stand Miko. While I hope for her redemption, every panel she is in is like fingers on a blackboard. I frankly think she's played out as a major antagonist.

2) That said, if I were the author I would think long and hard about keeping her around. Why? Well, look at the web traffic. We've got bunches of pages in the main thread and a bazillion miko/anti-miko threads.

Miko generates interest. I would think that a character that people hated yet brought them to the board screaming their hatred should stick around, while a character that provoked no reaction at all would be killed out in a hurry.

After all, there's a large Miko fan club. And there's also a large fan club of people who love to hate her. Either way, she draws traffic.

3) And I'm certain that Rich does do that sort of thing -- he wants readers, after all. A character that evokes a great deal of interest, originally intended to be a one-shot gag, can get a much larger part. Equally, a character intended to be a major antogonist/ NPC, if the overall reaction is simply "eh", could disappear very quickly.

I suspect something similar happened with Hinjo. I suspect he was originally tended to be a one-adventure NPC, and now we might actually have some adventures with him until Roy gets back.

4) Just because Miko will be "around till the end of the comic" (which Rich said), doesn't mean:
A) Rich can't change his mind. He could.

B) Even if he doesn't, that doesn't mean Miko can't be killed off here. Roy will also be around till the end of the comic, and HE's dead. So, for that matter, is his father. So, for that matter, is the major antagonist. Being killed isn't necessarily a bar to further participation in the comic.

I personally would prefer to have a druid cast reincarnate and bring her back as a cockroach.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Lady_Orc]

Hm...interesting choices. I would certainly enjoy watching Miko's painful and preferably slow death, yes. But what I would enjoy even more would be her slowly but certainly ruining her life more and more through her own actions, gradually destroying her own former principles until there is nothing left...

...and then, at some point, realizing what she has done so that she may be utterly crushed by despair and lose all belief in her own Lawful Goodness and Specialness forever.

After that, I guess I wouldn't mind if she killed herself, but prolonged misery and suffering would really be more amusing.

[David Argall]

Who foresaw that Elan would get laid?
Well, actually all of us who thought the subject would come up. Elan is described as highly attractive from the start.


The measure of a well-written character is that everything the character does is predictable and insightful to the character's nature, while still being flexible enough to deal with day-to-day challenges.... The measure of a well-written character in a well-written story is that you have no idea what's going to happen... But once it happens, it makes complete sense for how and why it happened!

With Miko, there is no understanding. She's bonkers. That covers nearly all of her extremely... nutty... actions, and there's little further justification. You have a modicum of acknowledgement for why she went over the edge, but, that's it.
Now where do you draw this conclusion? Her actions make perfect "sense" in retrospect. The fuss about the Gate at the moment is nonsense in that respect. We can make arguments for alternate actions, but destroying the gate is entirely sensible. We have had several paladins trying to do it, or suggesting it. We can easily call it wrong, but we have no problem with her trying it.
Killing Shiro is more of a shock, but is hardly unreasonable in light of the character and situaltion. He had just been exposed as guilty of sufficient crimes to require his immediate arrest and removal from office. Her father figure had been exposed as tremendously unworthy of that honor... She's already overly willing to resort to violence, so ...


But she sho' is fun to hate. She's like the comic relief, only she's less comic and more macabre... Though, smashing the sapphire like that, she's almost a mockery of her role.
Not an impossible assesment of her role. She is not going to be killed, but you can expect to see her humiliated in the future.

[Scarab83]

Hm...interesting choices. I would certainly enjoy watching Miko's painful and preferably slow death, yes. But what I would enjoy even more would be her slowly but certainly ruining her life more and more through her own actions, gradually destroying her own former principles until there is nothing left...

...and then, at some point, realizing what she has done so that she may be utterly crushed by despair and lose all belief in her own Lawful Goodness and Specialness forever.

After that, I guess I wouldn't mind if she killed herself, but prolonged misery and suffering would really be more amusing.

I like how you think! :smallbiggrin:

[Ridureyu]

I'm divided about Miko. She's a well-done character, but I hate her and want her to die. Therefore, keep going with Miko!



Now, concerning Plot vs. Humor, it goes both ways. Plot should not always be beneath humor... but I have seen many webcomics collapse utterly because they chose "TEH PLOT!!!111" over what made the comic good to begin with. A good example of this would be College Roomies from Hell.

[Ampersand]

I loves me some Miko (heck, I've moved up three Lesser Potentate chairs since she fell). But I do think her character has kinda stagnated a bit...right now she seems to be mainly a force for inserting chaos into already volatile situations.

So I would like to see some more character development that didn't hinge so much on "Watch what crazy thing I do next!" Or, at the very least, if she'd just stop cribbing lines from Anakin. :smallwink:

:miko: And not just the men. But the women. And the children. They're animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I HATE THEM! *pout*

[Ave]

Everyone knew this gate will be destroyed and that Xykon (and RedCloak) will escape, the whole story is about hunting Xykon from gate to gate.
People who hate Miko, but love Xykon and/or RedCloak should be VERY THANKFUL. Without Miko, the story would have ended here!
Miko will learn that Roy died heroically against Xykon (much like she would have died, should she be present), and also it is now 1:1 in the Miko vs. OOTS match of destroying portals.


She just came even, it is the path of her redemption.
Now that she comitted the very same 'crime against the universe' she will stop harassing the OOTS.

There is only one question, will both Hinjo and Miko join the Order in the quest. Or will Roy be resurrected?
Roy seems to be getting smaller and smaller :)

[Rastafast]

I like drama/story development,humor is nice when it happens.
Miko ....please kill her off ,PLEASE!
She was interesting untill she took the cloak off.
She had one funny joke , and a short stint as a "straight man to the OoTS".

For the story arc any other Azure city resident could have broken the portal.
I want to see interesting characters...
Team Evil! (go team evil!)
OoTS (go Belkar)
Linear guild (go Thog)
(hummm patern...i like the evil peoples)
Heck even the Cliffport PD was more entertaining to read (imho).

(i like brackets too much also[way too much])

To sum up

Love the story, Miko die plz kkthx.

[Demented]

Now where do you draw this conclusion? Her actions make perfect "sense" in retrospect.

That's just it. It makes sense, because the essence of her motivation has always been that she's prone to violence and a little unreasonable. Now we've tacked on that she's self-centered. But her character is now applied in such general terms that she's actually become less distinctive, not more.

Miko's character was a one-trick pony from the get-go, but it was a very neat trick. (Hot chick psycho paladin!) However, the pony's not as limber now, the trick's gotten old, and the pony isn't getting any smarter.


So, here's to hoping Rich realizes this and either writes interesting things (more than opportune acts of violence) for Miko in the future... or gets her out of the picture pronto.

[CardinalFang]

That's just it. It makes sense, because the essence of her motivation has always been that she's prone to violence and a little unreasonable. Now we've tacked on that she's self-centered. But her character is now applied in such general terms that she's actually become less distinctive, not more.

Miko's character was a one-trick pony from the get-go, but it was a very neat trick. (Hot chick psycho paladin!) However, the pony's not as limber now, the trick's gotten old, and the pony isn't getting any smarter.


So, here's to hoping Rich realizes this and either writes interesting things (more than opportune acts of violence) for Miko in the future... or gets her out of the picture pronto.

I'd kind of like her to disappear for a bit on her own, and then come back in another stormy-night kind of appearance, along with comments along the lines of "ugh, again!?" from the Order. But she'd have to come back as a totally different character (imagine the same panel she first showed up in, but redone with her in black clothes).

[Renegade Paladin]

...and not because it's thematic, and not because the snarl would explode and kill her, but for one simple reason:

Because I will stop reading the comic if she doesn't.

I've been reading --and enjoying merrily-- Order of the Stick for years, since when the strips from the first book were still coming out or so, and it's been a real fun ride. I bought On the Origin shortly after it came out, and buying the other books has been on my "too-do" list for a while now (just as soon as I get enough money together such that I can buy them and still have enough money for furniture and such for my appartment next year). But Miko annoys me so much that I don't just get mad at her, but at the comic itself. Watching her is purely aggravating. I don't like it at all. Simply put, she makes the comic extremely unfun, and that bothers me to the point where I am willing to find other comics instead.

I say this out of nothing but anger and desperation. And this isn't a threat or anything (who and I to threaten?), I just really, really cannot stand reading about Miko anymore and needed someone to winge to.
*Shrug* Okay, if you will stop reading the comic if Miko remains as a character, then goodbye. It doesn't make a difference to any of us one way or the other, and Rich states in No Cure for the Paladin Blues that she will be around until the end.
Tell me, have you laughed about Miko lately? Ever?
Yep. When she reacted to Sabine's offer by snapping her neck, I about fell out of my chair. :smallbiggrin:

[BlaineTog]

:smallfrown:

People seem to be misunderstanding me. I'm getting a strongly defensive vibe coming from a lot of the posts. I'm not trying to "pressure" anyone into doing anything. I'm not saying Miko isn't a potentially valuable character. I'm not saying she can't add to the story. I'm not saying she can't act as a foil for the comedic characters. I'm not saying she doesn't increase forum traffic. I'm not even saying she isn't hott.

What I'm saying is she effects my enjoyment of the comic so very negativelly that todays comic made me seriously consider just not reading it anymore, or at least quickly skimming comics to check for her first before reading it. I just really, really, really hate it when characters do such stupid things in books and movies; I always have. I don't want to read about it, I don't want to see it, and I certainly don't want it in my favorite webcomic.

I express neither an ultimatum nor a demand, only a personal prefrence. Can you understand disliking a character's existence in something so much that you think about leaving it entierly? "So leave." Oh thanks, real helpful there.

[Ithekro]

Actaully I believe what is needed is for Miko to be given more of the spotlight...under someone else's terms. Thus she would join with the OOTS, atone or not atone is a question, one that may not even be answered within the realm of the comic (staying nuetral on what she is doing much like V's gender), and the struggle to justify her existance after what she has done and the chances of having the Order be forced to interact with her on a daily basis...that is almost priceless in terms of comic and dramatic storytelling.

The dynamic would be painful, ironic, and even funny in a twisted way. They all hate her and she hates them, but being forced to work together, especially if Roy remains dead? Priceless.

[Renegade Paladin]

I express neither an ultimatum nor a demand, only a personal prefrence. Can you understand disliking a character's existence in something so much that you think about leaving it entierly? "So leave." Oh thanks, real helpful there.
And what, exactly, do you expect? If you decide to not read the comic because of Miko's continued existence within it, then why should any of us care? I'm not being hostile; I'm simply laying out the facts. Miko's going to be around, you said you'll leave if she is, so you should leave if she really causes you that much anguish. Nothing against you; I'm saying you should carry out that preference that you seem to care enough about to make a thread for.

[Moonsinger45]

Hey guys, this is my first post, and I have to say I've been reading OOTS for such a long time, and I really REALLY love the comic.
I've never joined the forums, because generally I love the way the comic moves, and I enjoy listening to the gentle (sometimes not so gentle) conversation on the fate of different characters, etc.
However, I feel compelled to join now.

I went from liking Miko.
To feeling bad for Miko when Roy made fun of her that first time.
To feeling defensive about her behavior.
To resigning myself to her decline into chaotic tendencies.
To outright dislike and indignation.
And now, she's just stupid.

It's as if she's slowly devolved into a complete and total idiot. This isn't Miko "falling" per se. She is dumb. She is an incredibly dumb person, and her continued existence is ridiculous.
Her reasoning is absurd. And she is NEVER introspective. ? NEVER introspective? A paladin is always challenging themselves to be of pure intention and to look within to find the high road, and not just any high road, but the most just one. She NEVER does this, and only does what is most convenient at the time, considering her ridiculously zealous behavior. Especially after her fall... I just don't know what else to say. She's just such a horrible character.

Please, PLEASE, please, get rid of her. She's just so annoying.

[teratorn]

:smallfrown:
"So leave." Oh thanks, real helpful there.

What kind of help do you want from us? Pressure on The Giant?

If the strip causes you grief than the sensible thing to do is to stop reading. Did you expect we would convince you otherwise?

[Freelance Henchman]

...and not because it's thematic, and not because the snarl would explode and kill her, but for one simple reason:

Because I will stop reading the comic if she doesn't.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out etc.

[BlaineTog]

What kind of help do you want from us?I expected you to be nice.

[Setra]

I went from liking Miko.
To feeling bad for Miko when Roy made fun of her that first time.
To feeling defensive about her behavior.
To resigning myself to her decline into chaotic tendencies.
To outright dislike and indignation.
And now, she's just stupid.
Very similar to myself.

I went from liking her.
To feeling bad when Roy made fun of her.
To feeling defensive about her behavior
To begin to like her chaotic behavior
And now I wonder who cast Touch of Idiocy on her.

[Freelance Henchman]

I expected you to be nice.

"lolz n00b gtfo rofl!!!!1one" :smallbiggrin:

I think you should give the story a chance. Personally, I almost despair when g*dd*mn Belkar gets the limelight with his idiotic, illogical antics, but I don't (usually) bother to threaten to stop reading the comic because it.

Consider it a chance to observe your own reaction: how does a figure made up of a couple of lines manage to tick you off so badly? Is it something you recognize in yourself, or maybe you have met someone who has behaved like this?

I'm sure your favorite character will get some "screen time" soon enough.

[teratorn]

I expected you to be nice.

I'm a big mean meanie head. And some of the people here were being nice, if it is that hard on you, you should quit.

[SPoD]

I direct the OP to my signature.

And the reason people think you are trying to pressure Rich is that your thread title says, "Miko needs to die." That's a far cry from what you seem to want to say, which is, "Miko is ruining my enjoyment of the strip." What you said implies that Rich is compelled to service your reading needs, which he most certainly isn't.

The most upsetting thing is that if Miko does ever die, everyone here will think they bullied Rich into it, which will just encourage them to post more beligerant spammy demands that he change this or that to suit them. If Miko is to die, I hope it is in the time and place that Rich has chosen in advance for her, and not because of anything said here.

Luckily, Rich doesn't read any of this, so I shouldn't worry. :smile:

[knightsljx]

she was a good character initially albeit a little over zealous. but now she's just a stupid blinded religious zealot. its almost like Rich is setting up for her death so that all of us go "YES!" when it happens

[Nathander]

Also, the Snarl is a McGuffin yes, but it's also the main overarching Big Bad Evil of the plot. The Snarl may not get much screentime, but he sure as hell lurks in the back of our minds as we read the comic.

I disagree. While the Snarl is evil, if it is used at all it will be used as a source of power, and not a villain that the party will ever generally come into conflict with, except to stop Xykon from using it's power. It does lurk in the back of our minds, but it's not lurking there because of what we usually think about what it will do, but what Xykon would use it for if he succeeded.

And, honestly, if the story ends with the main antagonist being the Snarl, that means the Snarl would have to be set free and, thus, everything would most likely be destroyed. The party can confront Xykon, but they simply would have no way of confronting the Snarl, even with V eventually gaining "ultimate power". Therefore, the Snarl will lurk in the back of our minds as a possible tool Xykon could use, not as the big bad evil of the story.


Xykon and Nale are both part of a bigger group with often much fun group interaction. Tell me, have you laughed about Miko lately? Ever? Both Xykon, Nale and their respective groups have been far more amusing to watch.

Agreed that Xykon's group and Nale's group are both more amusing. However, I don't necessarily read this comic for laughs. While it does still retain a great deal of it's humor, I appreciate the serious turns its begun to take, and I think Miko has helped work as the main catalyst for this on several levels. Really, the only other person I think who could've been used to initiate a lot of the events that occured in Azure City would be Hinjo, and I don't think that would've worked as well as Miko unless Rich had given Hinjo Miko's personality instead. And since Hinjo acts as a catharsis to Miko and her actions, having him replace Miko wouldn't have worked as well as there wouldn't have been another suitable character to contrast the fallen paladin (Miko, in this case) with in terms of a true, upright paladin (Hinjo).


And being crucial to plot development is an author thing, not a character thing. Any other character could have been written to further the plot. Hell, other characters Have massively furthered the plot.

Could Rich have simply written in another character to further the plot? Certainly. But, as you said, it is an author thing. However, this actually also is related to being a character thing. Rich created Miko, most likely, with a specific purpose in mind. By having done what she's done, she's fulfilling that purpose. While Miko was created simply due to Rich's whim, so has everything else happened in the same way. It is, after all, Rich's story.


Bull. Good character developement and deep plots do Not require Miko.

Agreed. Though, I must admit; I haven't seen anyone claiming that Miko is required for this, only people saying that she has carried out this function to some degree. And that's also a statement I agree with.


There is no strict neccessity for Miko's brand of insanity.

You assume too much. This could lead into an important plot point in the future, as it has before when she slew Shojo.


Of course she needs to die...

...how else will she meet up with Roy's spirit in the afterlife of the twelve gods so they can go on their buddy-spirit-quest! Hilarity will surely ensue...

It would, indeed. It would be like "Lethal Weapon", but in a fantasy setting. Unfortunately, it's unlikely to happen. That makes me sad. :smallfrown:


MIko is actually much like Belkar when you think about it.

Totally agreed. In many ways, I think this contributes to her hatred of him even above the fact that he's evil. He provides an outward focus for her that displays all of her own worst attributes. But, of course, I may be overanalyzing.


Hmm, here's a thought...what if Roy's "player" has gotten tired of the character and his 2nd permanent character is....MIKO!!! Woo-hoo!

It would be....interesting, but I have to say that, as a fan of both characters, I'd have a hard time tolerating it. I would much rather see Roy come back and take his rightful place, especially since I believe he's the only one who can truly lead the OotS with a large degree of competency (this mainly being due to the fact that he has the best control over Belkar). Really, if one of the two characters had to die and stay dead, I'd have to say I'd rather see Miko die and Roy alive. But that's just me.

[R.O.A.]

I agree she is a dull character, and gets annoying at times.But I don't think she's bad enough to stop me reading it, I'll still love the OOTS even if they have to share thier spotlight with her.

Tell me, have you laughed about Miko lately? Ever? Both Xykon, Nale and their respective groups have been far more amusing to watch. I can't think of a funy Miko line :smallannoyed: hummm... I'll read some old ones and get back to you on that one. None spring to mind anyway.
It's good to have a moan about the storyline sometimes, even if you know it won't change it :smallsmile:

[BlaineTog]

"lolz n00b gtfo rofl!!!!1one" :smallbiggrin:

I think you should give the story a chance. Personally, I almost despair when g*dd*mn Belkar gets the limelight with his idiotic, illogical antics, but I don't (usually) bother to threaten to stop reading the comic because it.

Consider it a chance to observe your own reaction: how does a figure made up of a couple of lines manage to tick you off so badly? Is it something you recognize in yourself, or maybe you have met someone who has behaved like this?

I'm sure your favorite character will get some "screen time" soon enough.See, I like Belkar, because he's insane, but he doesn't pretend he isn't. He does malevolent, crazy things, but he doesn't try to construct ass-backward reasonings to justify them. Miko represents the perversion of logic, whereas Belkar just circumvents it. I dislike Miko for the same reason I dislike politicians: everything she says and does is just so very wrong, so very riddled with illogic, and there's nothing I could conceivably do to make it right. She makes me want to enter the comic, smack her across the face, and pick her reasoning apart. But of course, that still wouldn't fix anything, because she's too locked down to understand anything I had said. I am utterly exasperated with her.

I guess there really is no cure for Paladin blues. :smallfrown:

[Scarab83]

I guess there really is no cure for Paladin blues. :smallfrown:

It's called Disintegrate.

[Cartographer]

I like her because she's the only effective lawful character in the comic, and I'm sympathetic to her because she always, always gets screwed for it.

OK, not quite.

Durkon's lawful, but he never does anything.

Hinjo's lawful, but hasn't had to make any actual decisions yet (except defend the city/don't).

Roy isn't lawful, unless he's lawful evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html).

Adventurers, pretty much by definition, do things their own way. This frequently crosses the line into 'being criminals', and Miko doesn't have much tolerance for that.

If she discovers, in the near future, first that she's committed the same crime as Elan and that it's sometimes justified, and that while Roy may be massively self-centred (yes, more than Miko is) and gratuitously insulting, he was willing to put his life on the line when it counted, I think she'll probably start on the way to atoning.

I think Miko has had more development than any other character in the comic, and I like that. I also don't think she's insane; she just assumes - not unreasonably - that people who are trying to do the right thing should probably be honest with paladins, and unfortunately *everyone*, without exception, has lied to or taken advantage of her.

So, in short, I like her, I don't think she's mad, and I don't want her dead. I'd just like it if the OotS treated her better than the forums do.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Roy in the past has said that he was Lawful Good.

[CardinalFang]

Roy in the past has said that he was Lawful Good.

I assume Cartographer's point was that conspiring with Hinjo and Belkar to get Belkar's sentence reduced, he must be Evil. Even though A) he conspired WITH the ruler of the city, B) it was in order to save a city full of innocent people, and C) Belkar had been illegally imprisoned under pretense by a ruler who staged a false trial, so technically he is only guilty of escaping unjust captivity. Therefore, Roy does not "have to be Lawful Evil" because of that strip.

[teratorn]

Belkar had been illegally imprisoned under pretense by a ruler who staged a false trial, so technically he is only guilty of escaping unjust captivity.

Huh? what about the guard he killed? If you go to jail under pretense and kill one of your guards you still qualify for murder charges (and in some places capital punishment).

[Guts]

I dont know why people care so much about liking Miko (or the contribution her odd or at least noticeable behavior makes to the value of the comic) or liking to hate her personality, mean she like every other character only exists to provide us with good humor and to add to a pretty decent plot. O well it only goes to show how good Rich's writing is or how people in this age prefer flawed heroes/anti-heroes (at least those with a believeable personality or one you can relate to) and dislike people whom they perceive to be narrow-minded and religious zealots who may pose a threat to your life.

Anyways I wonder if the Snarl can manifest itself through the rift kinda like how it pushed its claw through one to kill Soon's wife. It could stick out a body part and give Mike the Treasure type O she needs.:smallbiggrin:

[Twilight Jack]

I like her because she's the only effective lawful character in the comic, and I'm sympathetic to her because she always, always gets screwed for it.

OK, not quite.

Durkon's lawful, but he never does anything.

Hinjo's lawful, but hasn't had to make any actual decisions yet (except defend the city/don't).

Roy isn't lawful, unless he's lawful evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html).

Roy is quite lawful. He is just also loyal to his team mates and cares for Belkar entirely more than he should/is willing to admit. He protects his own, even at the expense of the letter of the law. He believes in structure, discipline, and order, he just quickly tires of rules that seem completely arbitrary. By attempting to protect his team mate, he sends a message to his other team mates that he will never abandon or betray them. His lack of concern for Elan's kidnapping was his single big failing on this score, but he's made up for it since then and is proving himself a rather competent leader.

Durkon hasn't done anything to demonstrate himself as lawful? What about his speech to Hilgya? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) His refusal to fight Miko? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html) His scolding of Julia? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html) I could name more, but I don't want to scour the comics too much more.

So far as Hinjo is concerned, he's shown himself as the definitive proof that Paladins can value compassion and fairly adjucated justice over the harsh letter of the law. Hinjo has (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) proven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) himself (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0418.html) both lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0438.html) and good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html).

The problem with Miko isn't that she gets screwed for being lawful, it's that she's completely inflexible in her definition. Combine that with her arrogance, and you've got a dangerous cocktail that turns to delusion rather than humility when her intractable worldview is proven wrong in any way.

The plot screws her because she consistently behaves in an arrogant, wrongheaded, and merciless manner. Compare her to either Hinjo, Durkon, or Roy, all of whom share her alignment and yet manage not to completely disregard the opinions and personhoods of those around them.

By the way, a completely Chaotic character who showed a similar arrogant disregard, insisting upon total self-determination and constantly rebelling against authority and openly decrying all law as inherently wrong would be given the same "unfair" treatment.

Belkar doesn't count by the way, since he is straight up evil and makes no illusions about it. I'm talking about a Chaotic Good "freedom fighter" with the same approach to Chaos that Miko brings to Law.

[Aotrs Commander]

I have some sympathy with you, BlaineTog.

Miko stirs up an intense negative reaction in me, too. It has intensified throughout her appearences. It perhaps stands a testament to Rich's supreme skill that he can manage to trigger it.

But I don't care about the meta situation, when it comes to Miko. I don't care what effects on the comic her depature would have, that it's only a comic, whether she's a maybe tragic character or not or a GMPC or that it's the way she's supposed to be or anything else. It goes beyond that.

See, like Gladiator, the rest of the Shi'Ar even more than vampires, Miko utterly reviles me on every level. It goes beyond rational thought, beyond some easily explanable phenominon, directly to the blackest, bitterest core of terrible fury that motivates each second of my Undeath. Whenever she appears, I feel my claws tense. All other thought leaves. I just want to personally hunt her down and strike her down with every single iota of my power and plunge my claws into her inards and tear them out.

I don't want just to see Miko die. I want to see her shattered. Broken. Screaming out in infinite agony, fear and utter despair as she realises that everything she has ever done and would have done means nothing and has come to naught. I want to look into her eyes as she comes to this and for her to know, in that moment that she is totally and utterly and completely and irrevocably beaten. And then I want to cast her screaming, despairing soul into utter annhilation to spend an eternity in infinite agony from which no power in any universe can save her from.

And then I want to do the same to every Shi'Ar that has ever lived.

And Gladiator, several times over. If I come think of a worse torment for him, I would, but even my imagination has not manged it yet.



So, yeah, I can relate that you need to vent.

For my part, I shall watch until the bitter end, but full in the knowledge whatever final fate befalls her it is far less than she deserves. Nor will her vile idiocy stay me from watching the rest of the OotS - or Xycon and Redcloak - achieve their final victory.

[CardinalFang]

Huh? what about the guard he killed? If you go to jail under pretense and kill one of your guards you still qualify for murder charges (and in some places capital punishment).

I don't really want to turn this into a Belkar debate, but applying modern jailing and legal procedures to this case doesn't really work, because most modern governments recognize each others' sovereignty, and have rules about foreign prisoners, jurisdiction ("the gods are not limited in their jurisdiction" would get you laughed out of a real court), extradition, due process, etc. Belkar was imprisoned by a government which had no authority over him, and could have easily been sentenced to life in prison or even the death penalty under the laws of Azure City. It is very viable that he was within his right to escape...not a position I'm necessarily taking or opposing, simply stating, however.

Anyway, to re-Miko-ize this post, Belkar's guilt or innocence (that might be stretching it) is irrelevant: Roy was not being Lawful Evil by arranging a solution to a difficult legal problem with the sovereign ruler of the city.

[Ygrane]

Miko annoys me mostly because she continues to run around doing whatever she wants, and is an uninteresting one-dimensional character.

She makes for a tolerable plot device, but it'd be nice if there was more to her than just a spoiled brat.

[Khatoblepas]

My Opinion (and Bardic Knowledge check):
Miko does not need to die. The fact that you hate her means that her character is working. You're supposed to hate the antagonist, right? (Apart from Xykon and Redcloak, but you love to hate them, and love them anyhow)

Miko is a different type of Antagonist. She is the one you're supposed to hate and want to die. You can't connect with her, she's totally off the wall and crazy - it's not like Xykon, where he's sensible (to a point) and knows his way around evil - Miko is the dangerous loose cannon who inevitably will bring the whole world down, if not for the PCs. You're not supposed to like Miko.

It's true that Miko can't last long in her current state. She's powerless, crazy and narcissistic. Inevitably, she will gain a hell of a lot of power. But you won't see it now. I predict that she will "die"* pretty soon.

Yes... "die". Happy now, Miko-killers?

*
That kind of fake death that makes the heroes think that she's dead, but really she's just hanging on, corrupted by vile powers.

[Tmabbbb]

[to OP]

I feel exactly the same way you do. Except that my hate is exhibited towards Roy. I'm glad he died, because I would be very angry if he miraculously defeated Xykon again. I can understand it happening the first time, but it would be terrible if it happened again. Only problem is, Roy will probably be resurrected. Still, at least I'm glad Roy died.

[Aotrs Commander]

My Opinion (and Bardic Knowledge check):
Miko does not need to die. The fact that you hate her means that her character is working. You're supposed to hate the antagonist, right? (Apart from Xykon and Redcloak, but you love to hate them, and love them anyhow)

Miko is a different type of Antagonist. She is the one you're supposed to hate and want to die. You can't connect with her, she's totally off the wall and crazy - it's not like Xykon, where he's sensible (to a point) and knows his way around evil - Miko is the dangerous loose cannon who inevitably will bring the whole world down, if not for the PCs. You're not supposed to like Miko.


You see, I know that, intellectually. But my loathing just completely overrides any semblence of seperation.



It's true that Miko can't last long in her current state. She's powerless, crazy and narcissistic. Inevitably, she will gain a hell of a lot of power. But you won't see it now. I predict that she will "die"* pretty soon.

Yes... "die". Happy now, Miko-killers?]

I doubt her mere death will even slightly quench my ire, actually.

[Tussy the Druid]

The fact that she makes half of the message boards talk about her shows how good a character is. I didn't say she made good choices, or was a good person, she's a good character. Rich wrote a character that makes me pull my hair out. That's why it's such a good story to me.

[David Demola]

you must hate good books.

Dante's Inferno isn't funny, it sucks. Raistlin isn't funny, he sucks.

Did you just seriously put Dragonlance on the same literary platform as Dante's Inferno? Dragonlance was a fun read...when I was 12. The whole Fantasy genre really kicks itself in the nuts with every rehashing of the exact same plotline and almost the exact same villains. Same group of heroes, too.

Just a thought.

~Dave

[Lorde]

I really, really, really like Miko, even with all the things which happened.

However, I think the Azure arc extended for too long, and I'd wish to see a closure. If this closure mean she will disappear, so be it.

Of course, I'd prefer her to tag along.

Cute Paladin is cute.

[BlaineTog]

My Opinion (and Bardic Knowledge check):
Miko does not need to die. The fact that you hate her means that her character is working. You're supposed to hate the antagonist, right?No, and no. First, you're not supposed to hate the antagonist so much the hate transfers to the art itself. You're not supposed to hate a character so much you want to put the book down. Second, there's nothing about being an antagonist that requires hate. Dark Helmet is an effective antagonist in Space Balls, but I certainly don't hate him. Captain Barbossa was an effective antagonist in the first Pirates movie, and I didn't hate him at all.

[Setra]

Did you just seriously put Dragonlance on the same literary platform as Dante's Inferno? Dragonlance was a fun read...when I was 12. The whole Fantasy genre really kicks itself in the nuts with every rehashing of the exact same plotline and almost the exact same villains. Same group of heroes, too.

Just a thought.

~Dave
Personally, I liked Dragonlance more. So there.

Sure it's not as good literarily, but I don't care. I read books because I like them.

[David Argall]

most modern governments recognize each others' sovereignty, and have rules about foreign prisoners, jurisdiction
These rules in general amount to matters of pragmatics and political advantage. A modern Belkar hauled into an American court by legal or illegal means is equally screwed either way. American law, and presumably the laws of all other countries, outlaws a variety of activities in foreign countries done by those who have never touched American lands. We have a number of rather famous foreigners in American jails despite not bothering with foreign laws.


("the gods are not limited in their jurisdiction" would get you laughed out of a real court),
Well, mostly because God doesn't toss lightning bolts at those who laugh. In our story world, that happens, and so the plea would be deemed entirely valid.


Belkar was imprisoned by a government which had no authority over him,
The theory of government, any government, is that it has full authority, except where it says it does not. Just who is supposed to tell a government it does not have jurisdiction? Certainly not the criminal. So if the Azure City decided it had jurisdiction, it did.

[Waffle Master]

I was kind of hoping the snarl would reach out and eat her, but it would probably end up spitting her back out in a few pages, so we'd be back to square one.

[delguidance]

I agree with the original poster that Miko has had a lot of screen time as of late, but I think there are reasons to justify it. She has an interesting story going on, and if Rich as a writer wants to explore her character, I'll gladly go along for the ride even if my loyalties life with the order. I'm solidly sold on the quality of the art, humor, and writing of the comic, and if the story started to follow one of the minor characters for a while I'd go along.

I don't think the original posters reasons for her to die are valid and I actually doubt s/he'd stop reading the comic if Miko doesn't die.

[BlaineTog]

I don't think the original posters reasons for her to die are valid and I actually doubt s/he'd stop reading the comic if Miko doesn't die.You underestimate how much I loathe her.

[Setra]

You underestimate how much I loathe her.
Then go ahead and leave.

Go. Shoo.

Stop acting like a whiny little brat who is crying cause he can't get his way.

I apologize but I am in a bad mood.

[delguidance]

Okay, provide some evidence that you've done similar things in the past. Books that you've stopped reading, movies you've walked out of. Prove it.

[Scarab83]

This has degenerated into the dumbest topic ever. On both sides.

[Setra]

This has degenerated into the dumbest topic ever. On both sides.
You haven't seen some of the topics I have.

And I'm sure there is worse than what I have too.

[Kioran]

Kablamm!

Maybe she´ll find peace now, allthough she coul have survived that........we´ll see on monday.

[Alex Warlorn]

I want her to die simply because that means her gods will finally tell her she screwed up, -badly!-

[Adoniis]

Kablamm!

Maybe she´ll find peace now, allthough she coul have survived that........we´ll see on monday.

I might be fueling a fire.... but if Rich lets her survive that then he is REALLY stretching things. I can't believe he let that paralyzed guy live. An explosion that large to decimate an entire castle and people lived?! (and no this isn't because I don't like Miko, it's just an opinion, right or wrong)

[Renegade Paladin]

<snip>
Wow. A bit overboard, much?

And what the hell is a Shi'Ar? :smallconfused:

[InfernusTribble]

This has got to be the most sulky thread I've read so far on the forums. Bravo! :smallbiggrin:

Some of us actually like intelligent plots, character development, humour etc and applaud the giant for the masterful way in which he does it. I wish I could write even a quarter as well as he does

I think half the peeps posting here should try reading the entire webcomic the entire way through a few times - there's pre-shadowing, logical character development etc stretching back to almost the very start.
Miko's character development and arc do make sense, as does Roy's, Xykon's , Redcloak's etc etc.
Even her descent into narcissim and delusionalism make sense. If she dies, fine, if she doesn't I know the Giant will continue writing her as superbly as he does every other character

The main grief causing problem I can see is the page updates mean that by the time each update hits our browsers we have half forgotten the previous 200 or so pages, such that the overall story is broken up into tiny installments.

If you believe that the Giant should abandon such a well-written character as Miko on your say so, or you'll leave the webcomic, then please remember: -

You like everyone else, get to choose what you like or dislike and what you can or can't read or watch; but please don't try to force your opinions down our throats with threats of leaving if you don't get your way. That's a stick-butt paladin attitude to have

[Alaba Blackveil]

I absolutly second all the "Miko must die....." buddys.
In her current state as a fallen paladin doing all the wrong stuff for all the wrong reasons distorts all of the story-progress. Its pain in the eye to see her wasting panels and breaking the flow. When she appeared in the battle all the fun and eagerness were gone.

Screw her!

[EvilJames]

I for one can never seem to understand the desire to see a character like this die. Would you really be happy to watch Miko die slowly and painfully after being broken and humiliated, if so you may want to rexamine your life.

That kind of end for this kind of character is never satisfying it always feels empty and unpleasant the best the auther can hope for is to make the reader sad at the tragedy of the death, but that doesn't seem to be where miko is headed ( she doesn't generate much sympathy from me right now) The "fall and rise", while a common plot device is common for a reason, it's a great deal more pleasant to read than the "fall and just die and everyone spits on you" She doesn't even have to regain paladin status to be redeamed in the story (Technically she can never regain samurai status if I understand correctly so even if she becomes a paladin again she will always be ronin and likly never be apart of the saphire guard again) she just has to realize her mistake and seek to make amends.
Blackguard also seems unlikly but not impossible. If she starts eating babies and mass murdering civilians then the slow death might be satisfying.

I need sleep so if this is too rambling I'll fix it later.

[Odelay]

She really became a pain, and I am part of the horde that can't stand her anymore.

Miko needs to die. It's the will of the gods. :P

You know it appears that she just died. So there's no need anymore :smallwink:

I must see her own mutilated body with x's in her eyes to belive!

Comrade Gorby: Let us avoid double posting & utilize the Edit option.

[basilisk 89]

I hate Miko. I find her to be the worst character out of any literature I've ever read. And that's why I am glad she's in the story. Giant needs a character to do all the horrible, dirty actions that further the plot. So we can all focus our hate on her and no one else. Every story has a character that everyone absolutely despises. I think it is a neccesary thing in most books/comics/whatever. I want Miko to die as much as the next person, but she is an extremely valuable asset to the story.

[Lord Zentei]

I hate Miko. I find her to be the worst character out of any literature I've ever read. And that's why I am glad she's in the story. Giant needs a character to do all the horrible, dirty actions that further the plot. So we can all focus our hate on her and no one else. Every story has a character that everyone absolutely despises. I think it is a neccesary thing in most books/comics/whatever. I want Miko to die as much as the next person, but she is an extremely valuable asset to the story.

Ahem. If this is your conclusion, then you mean she is a great character but a bad person.

When we speak of the "quality of the character", this is determined by his/her importance as an asset to the story, not as far as we would get along with her IRL. :smallwink:

[ShiningTed]

Miko's gotta go.

Is she bad for the comic? No, not really - she's a 'character you love to hate', she's interesting in a twisted way (like a train wreck) as she makes every bad choice imaginable for all the wrong reasons, she's the only lawful neutral character in the comic (yeah, you heard me - she is text-book lawful neutral, there's nothing good about her), she invokes strong reactions either way, she gets some great moments (like the 'bump uglies' line, or practically everything Roy has ever said / done to her).

Why get rid of her if she is good for the comic?

Becuase she is bad for this forum.

Seriously folks, we spend far more time here on the forum than we ever spend reading the comic. Each new comic takes, what, 30 seconds to read? 5 minutes if you really stare at every panel to see what you might have missed?

3 panels a week. 15 minutes reading the comic a week, max.

Now, how much time do people spend on the forum each week? 5 minutes every day? 15 minutes a day? Its still far more. (Obviously OotS fans who don't bother with the forum are non-serious dillatentes who don't count in this instance :smalltongue: )

Miko has absolutely tainted this forum. We've got the "see Miko in every little moment" types - "ooo there is someone in a cloak! It must be Miko even though we saw her locked in a jail cell in the previous panel, and even though the cloak guy is a ghost!" We've got the blackguard brigade. We've got the "Miko is just misunderstood" bunch. We've got the "Miko is hot" bunch (may God have mercy on their souls - she's a freakin' STICK FIGURE! Kate Moss fans, perhaps). We've got the "Miko didn't have ANYTHING TO DO WITH THIS THREAD / COMIC, but lets talk about her anyway" folks. We've got the "lets predict everything that could ever happen to Miko" people. And their bestest friends, the "lets predict everything that could happen to everyone else that could somehow involve Miko" fans.

And yes, we have the "get over it!" folks like me. I'm just as bad, I don't deny it. :smalleek:

For the sake of all of us, she's gotta go. Its that simple. She's gotta go the way of the other rubbish we have had polluting the forum, like the "Hobgoblin #237 fanclub!!1!1!!!" nonsense and the "guy at the Weary Travellers Inn and Tavern VS Barliman Butterbur" gibberish. Kill her, grind her bones to dust, and scatter that dust on an unmarked grave. Sure, we'll miss her, but we gotta go cold turkey and be strong. Its for our own good.

(PS: I tried to read all 5 pages of this thread, but apologies if someone made this exact point.)

[Lord Zentei]

Why get rid of her if she is good for the comic?

Becuase she is bad for this forum.

So? The comic is far more important. Removing a useful/important character or plot element from the comic simply to reduce the number of threads about it seems rather perverse.

Besides, if people don't like Miko threads, they can simply boycott them.

[Spiryt]

not as far as we would get along with her IRL. :smallwink:

Not only in real life, but also how person is she in fictional world when she lives.

Seriously i'm tired with this topic. Miko is bad person, but great character. I don't care if she lives or dies, as long at this will be logical for this great story to procced.
I think it will be just and good for her to die now. She did whot she wanted to, she should pay the price. Her fall will be stopped at once.
But the story will be probably less interesting without her.

[lord_khaine]

well when miko isnt around to amuse me there is allways all the "i hate miko" treads, they are amazingly simular :smalltongue:

[Lord Zentei]

Not only in real life, but also how person is she in fictional world when she lives.

Seriously i'm tired with this topic. Miko is bad person, but great character. I don't care if she lives or dies, as long at this will be logical for this great story to procced.
I think it will be just and good for her to die now. She did whot she wanred to, she should pay the price. Her fall will be stopped at once.
But the story will be probably less interesting without her.

That's reasonable (though for what it's worth I for one would prefer to see her again). And I agree that the topic has become tiresome.

Take note though, that many (if not most) of the Miko threads of recent have been started by Pixies in the Playground who apparently started accounts specifically to cast Raise Dead on the poor horse in order to beat it to death again. :smallwink:

[Spiryt]

Take note though, that many (if not most) of the Miko threads of recent have been started by Pixies in the Playground who apparently started accounts specifically to cast Raise Dead on the poor horse in order to beat it to death again. :smallwink:

Yeah. This comic must be readed by incredible hordes of people. About 18,5 thousands (!) registered guys, and still so many are registering just to say " OMG if I will meet Miko I will kill her with cork-screw"

[Lord Zentei]

Yeah. This comic must be readed by incredible hordes of people. About 18,5 thousands (!) registered guys, and still so many are registering just to say " OMG if I will meet Miko I will kill her with cork-screw"

I wonder how many stick around for more than that.

Perhaps we should suggest in the Board Issues forum that to start new threads in the OOTS forum (as opposed to all the other forums on the board) you need to have advanced beyond Pixie level. Would that not reduce the incentive for this sort of thing?

[Spiryt]

I wonder how many stick around for more than that.

Perhaps we should suggest in the Board Issues forum that to start new threads in the OOTS forum (as opposed to all the other forums on the board) you need to have advanced beyond Pixie level. Would that not reduce the incentive for this sort of thing?

Maybe, but I'm don't sure if it will be legal... After all, you can't disallow people to write something, as long as it didn't offend or attack anybody.
It's private forum, yes, but still...

[Lord Zentei]

Maybe, but I'm don't sure if it will be legal... After all, you can't disallow people to write something, as long as it didn't offend or attack anybody.
It's private forum, yes, but still...

There's nothing illegal about changing the settings for who may start threads or post. After all, people get banned; that's not illegal, and discussing politics and religion is not allowed around here. :smallconfused:

Anyway, I was not suggesting stopping people posting, merely stopping new threads being started until they have gotten to know the place better and gotten more of a feeling for what has been discussed already.

[jindra34]

Another problem is it would just delay the inevitable and encourage new people to post aimlessly...

[LordVader]

Halfling level to start a thread is a good idea. That way, the only people who can start threads are the ones who have been hanging around for a reasonable amount of time and know the ropes.

[Lord Zentei]

Another problem is it would just delay the inevitable and encourage new people to post aimlessly...

Well, at least it would be a disincentive. If we can reduce the number of drive-by spam threads and "lookit me, I love and/or hate Miko too" threads, then that would be worth it, right?

EDIT: well, I started the thread over there, for what it's worth: linka (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2717333#post2717333).

[TimOfDoom]

I'm just going to say this, to those who say Miko should die because "she does all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons" - Thats what makes it worth having her:smalltongue:
My two cents
:smallbiggrin:
~Doom

P.S. I'm new :smallredface:

[Snipers_Promise]

If she needs to die, she needs to die soon....... :biggrin:

[SmartAlec]

She can't die yet; she's got two more gates to destroy! She has to fulfil her god-given destiny!

[Lorde]

Dying never stopped a character to being annoying. Sometimes this even make it stronger.

I have this secret wish to Miko to die a martyr and start a army of Miko-like followers. Can you imagine a group of Miko characters? All grumpy? All righteous? With a banner of Miko and her ghost floating around?

Smart people would ask her to -change-.

[Scarab83]

Well, at least it would be a disincentive. If we can reduce the number of drive-by spam threads and "lookit me, I love and/or hate Miko too" threads, then that would be worth it, right?

EDIT: well, I started the thread over there, for what it's worth: linka (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2717333#post2717333).

Boy.. that was not received well at all..

Shocker. :smallamused:

[Skydiving_Ninja]

I'm still hanging on to Miko. Sure, she gets annoying at times, and sometimes she rushes into things (like just recently), and her zealotrous(sp?) attitude and inability to listen to anyone but herself angers me, but I hold on because of the possibility she'll actually figure out that the OOTS are the good guys.

So no, she doesn't need to die...not yet.

[Hel65]

So? The comic is far more important. Removing a useful/important character or plot element from the comic simply to reduce the number of threads about it seems rather perverse.

Besides, if people don't like Miko threads, they can simply boycott them.

Agreed and also adding a point: it is not BAD for the forum. It's only bad for the bile level of people who take the comic too seriously and/or take other people taking the comic too seriously too seriously. Yet, they stick around and wage their endless wars on the subject of Miko. It's just brilliant interest generator on the Giant's part.

[Lord Zentei]

Boy.. that was not received well at all..

Shocker. :smallamused:

It got mixed reviews, certainly. Some agreed, others did not. Many agreed with the general sendiment, though.

And yes, I did say myself that one can boycott Miko threads here on this very thread, but seriously; the extent of them could be placed under some control, as they bump down all the other threads off-page. And they tend not to be original to boot.


zealotrous(sp?)

That's "zealous". :smallwink:

[A Quiet Person]

Hmm. I'm surprised at the level of hatred that gets directed towards Miko. I dislike her, but in the way that the author intended, I think. She's a character who is useful to the story, not just for advancing plot, but also for generating frustration and drama.

Misunderstanding is a vital component in a lot of stories; as a device, it has the ability to draw in the reader. We know the information that a character is missing, and the more that a character makes a mess of things by not having our perspective, the more emotionally involved readers become with that character. I think that the same thing is going on when people shout at their televisions during football games.

Miko does this; additionally, she's a high-level character who has a lot of ability to affect the story, even without paladin powers. So people rave about her, in the same way that a sports fan yells at his set when he watches his team make an error that he could see coming.

-----

Thing is... Miko's been useful recently, but I do wonder how long she can continue to be useful to the story. I don't know whether the character should go, but I'm saying that she could go... unless even more changes are made to the character.

When she was introduced, Miko was good as a satirical comment - on unlikeable paladin characters that wield their moral authority like a club, and on the way oriental culture gets shoe-horned clumsily into some fantasy settings.

Then, Miko had another interesting element - she's the NPC who acts like she's a PC, like the protagonist of the story. She has also been the plot device that enabled Xykon to scry Azue City.

More recently we've had the story of her fall; she used to be the character who was only a threat because she had the wrong end of the stick. Now, however, it is more apparent that her misunderstandings owe as much to her delusions of self-importance as her limited perspective. And that was an exciting story too.

But... Miko is a bit of a one-trick pony. She's a thorn in the OotS's side who is driven by self-importance and delusional self-righteousness... and that's about it. Now, her shtick can be applied to a variety of situations, but Miko herself is on something of a single track.

I think that other characters have more longevity because they have different gears. Take Redcloak, for example. Sometimes he's in the comic as a villain with a nerdy bag of tricks - like his scientifically-correct elementals. Sometimes he's in the comic to be a straight man for Xykon or :mitd:'s humour. And sometimes, he's shown to have an emotional side, in that he cares about goblins, and his whole beef with the Sapphire Guard is a result of the paladin's slaughter of goblin tribes.

The Linear Guild also has different gears, especially since Nale is, like Elan, conscious of the rules of drama. Heck, even Thog has shown variety by teaming up with Elan; he ranges from rampaging barbarian to malleable child to lover of hare-brained schemes. The Sabine-Nale relationship also gives the Linear Guild other angles to explore.

And I'm sure that I don't need to delve into the ways in which the OotS itself is full of characters with varied facets.

But Miko's only got one track at a time. She doesn't really branch into making jokes, having her character background come back to affect her, or forming emotional attachments to other characters. While I don't count myself among the Miko-haters, I hope that we've reached the end of the "delusional, self-involved zealot" Miko arc. She's killed Shojo, attacked Hinjo and destroyed the Gate. If, the next time she interacts with the plot, her behaviour is the same, I don't think it will be popular. That card's been played enough.

Not that I think we are about to see the end of Miko; I'm just conscious that Miko is the sort of character that needs to be changed regularly or she won't stay fresh. This will likely happen; she's just stuck her sword into a dimensional gate that leads to the Snarl. The author could use this to change Miko in all kinds of ways.

In summary, my opinion is that we've seen the Miko pattern enough times: the "Miko appears - makes incorrect assumption about the OotS - tries to solve problems with violence - makes matters worse - rationalises away her flaws" routine. The only thing that I will personally find off-putting about Miko will be, if, when she next appears, she makes that same contribution to the story again.

[TinSoldier]

Oh, goody. Another "I hate Miko/Miko must die" thread. I haven't seen one of these in a long time!

But maybe it's because I haven't visited the forums recently.

They're like dandelions on a nice green lawn.


Moonsinger45 said:
I went from liking Miko.
To feeling bad for Miko when Roy made fun of her that first time.
To feeling defensive about her behavior.
To resigning myself to her decline into chaotic tendencies.
To outright dislike and indignation.
And now, she's just stupid.

Setra said:
Very similar to myself.

I went from liking her.
To feeling bad when Roy made fun of her.
To feeling defensive about her behavior
To begin to like her chaotic behaviorAgreed. She used to be pretty smart, and she still could have been. But Rich decided to give her some kind of psychosis. *shrug*. Whatever.

She's still interesting to me, just not as much as she used to be. I hope that she recovers some of her former wits, whether for good or for evil or for neutral.


Lorde said:
I have this secret wish to Miko to die a martyr and start a army of Miko-like followers. Can you imagine a group of Miko characters? All grumpy? All righteous? With a banner of Miko and her ghost floating around?We're already here, dude, listening to your phone conversations and monitoring your bank transactions.

Seriously.

:smallwink:

[Post]

Halfling level to start a thread is a good idea. That way, the only people who can start threads are the ones who have been hanging around for a reasonable amount of time and know the ropes.

Unreasonable, Halfling is what? A 100 replies?

[jindra34]

To those who say another charecter could take over miko's role in the story you would have to split the charecter into parts to avoid this level of hatred,
1.Roy foil
2.Hinjo Foil
3.Zealot
4.Megalomaniac
5.Narcissist
6.Anti-Hero

Now with that many charecters being required to replace her can you say she takes up too much screen time.

[David Argall]

Halfling level to start a thread is a good idea. That way, the only people who can start threads are the ones who have been hanging around for a reasonable amount of time and know the ropes.

This would merely increase confusion. You can avoid a great many of the I-hate-Miko posts by merely looking at thread titles [not that you do, and I am outright attracted by them, but...] So by limiting the ability to start threads, you tend to scatter these comments onto random threads where you have more trouble avoiding them.

Better to let the foolish start threads, and not post in those threads, which will hopefully sink out of sight.

[Poppatomus]

This would merely increase confusion. You can avoid a great many of the I-hate-Miko posts by merely looking at thread titles [not that you do, and I am outright attracted by them, but...] So by limiting the ability to start threads, you tend to scatter these comments onto random threads where you have more trouble avoiding them.

Better to let the foolish start threads, and not post in those threads, which will hopefully sink out of sight.

Wise words. Freedom of Speech is invariably superior to censorship.

[taj]

She is a deep, complex character whose actions have furthered the plot in so many ways.

She is a violent religious fundamentalist, for whom anything goes as long as its in the "name of God". I don't know how deep and complex that concept is any more, but what it no longer is is original and worthy of space in OOTS at the cost of other, more interesting characters. There are plenty of other fora to read about terrorists.

[Oxymoron]

Miko isn`t doing anything for the comic anymore? Hello, are we reading the same comic guys?

There are three major groups of antagonist in this comic:

Xykon, Redcloak and The Monster In The Darkness,

The Linear Guild,

and at last Miko.

All three are going to be a major part of this story until the end, and all are going to be thorns in the Ootses sides quite often. They all play major parts in the comic and will continue to do so.

Without Miko, would the Oots have fought the ogres, would they have fought the assasins in the tavern, would they have been brought in chains to Azure city? Maybe they would, but it wouldn`t be half the fun without her.

What is happening to Miko right now is character development. She is finally showing her true colors and having a mental breakdown. She could fall further into darkness or perhaps redeem herself, but most likely she is going to stay just above total damnantion, not doing vile or unspeakable acts, but not doing much good either. I personally don`t care, I`m not a fan or a hater, I just like the character.

I personally don`t like Thog anymore. At the moment he is a bit too childish and his oneliners are becoming just lame and inane. Strip 458 was a real low. Footstool *shrugs* So am I thinking it would be a good idea to kill him off? Clearly he isn`t doing it for me anymore. I think he is lame and not funny, he cannot possibly have anything left to offer me and this comic can he? No, I don`t. Because I trust the Giant. Thog will be back with onliners so cool that Arnold will sue. Thog will play a major part in the plots to follow and he will make me laugh again. I didn`t like Thogs last strip. Buhuhu me. Thog will be back in like a zillion other strips, some cool others lame, but I know the Giant won`t dissapoint me in the end.

Miko is doing some lameass s**t right now that are making even some of the diehard Mikofans out there questioning their fandom. But I`m sure she will come back with an elaborate plan to twarth the Ootses and like Nale fail at the last moment, but she`ll do it with style. KUNG FU style.

[Odelay]

**off topic**
Hey guys, can you give me some help?
It's just that in the page 5 of this thread I received a warning from Comrade Gorby telling me not to post messages in sequence. The problem is that I really didn't post anything in sequence.. the message "You know it appears that she just died. So there's no need anymore" was written by Spyrit, who happened to have the same picture as me.. I think the moderator made a mistake. I know it's no big deal, but I wonder if anything can be done, since I was warned for something that didn't happen.

EDIT: Thaks for the help!

[Scarab83]

Hey guys, can you give me some help?
It's just that in the page 5 of this thread I received a warning from Comrade Gorby telling me not to post messages in sequence. The problem is that I really didn't post anything in sequence.. the message "You know it appears that she just died. So there's no need anymore" was written by Spyrit, who happened to have the same picture as me.. I think the moderator made a mistake. I know it's no big deal, but I wonder if anything can be done, since I was warned for something that didn't really happened.

PM him.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=12355

[SalSar_Thiran]

I think what grates people the most about Miko is not her zealousy, stupidity arrogance or anything else. Its the fact she seems to be written as sympathy character. We are supposed to feel sorry for her and her terrible life. However, her actions directly contradict this, so we are supposed to feel sorry for and support a character whose entire purpose is to prove she is better than anyone else. That is my take on peoples problems with Miko.

[David Argall]

Miko a sympathy character? You are serious?

She is intended to be entirely unsympathetic. We are supposed to dislike her. Just not as badly as many posters seem to. She is to be annoying and we are to cheer when she suffers various undeserved humiliations.

[Meditating Mike]

I feel sorry for her, it is always sad to see a force of good and a fellow paladin fall and I don't like to see anyone suffer even if it is a fictional character.
My own suffering I accept and deal with but I would not want anyone else to suffer or come to harm.
I believe that everyone deserves to be happy and peaceful because if everyone in existence were happy and at peace I think there would be much less suffering, violence and war.

[The Hired Sloth]

I think what grates people the most about Miko is not her zealousy, stupidity arrogance or anything else. Its the fact she seems to be written as sympathy character. We are supposed to feel sorry for her and her terrible life. However, her actions directly contradict this, so we are supposed to feel sorry for and support a character whose entire purpose is to prove she is better than anyone else. That is my take on peoples problems with Miko.

I disagree with that. Her actions in no way contradict that we, the reader, are supposed to feel sorry for her, nor do they necessarily support that either.

The only person who can say whether or not you feel sorry for her or not is yourself. And truth be told, I think a lot of the Miko haters are running off of prejudices against those with characteristics they share with her, rather than any feelings they have for her specifically.

Naturally, since Miko's a fictional character, they can "get away" with claiming to want her dead, threatening her pseudo-life, and so on.

[Setra]

I technically feel sorry for her.

But not because of the comic, just because so many people hate her waaaay too much.

Personally, my favorite Miko moment was when Roy stabbed her with his greatsword. It was awesome.

Some of the better comic moments involve Miko, even if she is not the direct cause of them.

"Funny, I always thought I'd be killed by a Paladin"

*kick*

I'll stand between any two murderers I wish
Oooo Burned!

*snap*

There are a few more.

[The UnderKing]

I don't really like Miko but to stop reading the comic over something this stupid is...well...STUPID! I think Miko hasn't been that funny lately and she is very annoying as a character. But quiting the comic is a little much.

[Konradexius]

Miko is the most aggravating character I've seen in a long time. Whenever I come across someone that stubborn, whiny, and overly religious, I usually develop a personal interest in watching that person die.

Granted, I'm not going to quit the comic over it, because if she dies much later on, the wait will give it more satasfaction for me. If she doesn't, it'll be the jillionth time I've met a similarly irritating character who hasn't died like I'd hoped. Oh well.

[Setra]

I think the guy actually left.

Possibly around the time I insulted him... whoops.

[Jamie Fameflame]

Halfling level to start a thread is a good idea. That way, the only people who can start threads are the ones who have been hanging around for a reasonable amount of time and know the ropes.

- Or maybe those "knowing the ropes" should just ignore the topics which are of no interest to them, and stop replying to them, thereby letting them drop to page 2 sooner. Indeed, if I wanted to "know the ropes", I could reply to 100 topics the same day and gaining "halfling level" in less than two hours.

You should think before you post, LordVader, but that might have gotten you stuck in "pixie level"...

OT, I'm quite glad that she (probably) died... She hasn't added anything enjoyable to my OOTS experience so far, in fact everytime I see that the comic of the day will include her, I get frustrated and annoyed. Yay for big explosions.

She started the comic as a distraction from the main story, and leaves it by screwing up. Good work.

[Renegade Paladin]

Are you forgetting she has Evasion? :smallamused: I seriously doubt she's dead.

[Spiryt]

Are you forgetting she has Evasion? :smallamused: I seriously doubt she's dead.

Yeah but then you must agree that DC of such explosion will be around 147,23 :smallamused:

Still, she could roll 20 - be luuuucky.

[Storm Bringer]

hell, O-chul is alive (maybe not for long, depending on what the MITD does). I'm sure she is still alive to anger yet more people to unreasonable levels, to die in a sptacularly OTT manner at the finale.

[LordVader]

I also doubt she's dead. I'm praying she becomes a blackguard and starts "helping" Xykon or the LG.

[Lady_Orc]

I don't want Miko to die, at least not yet.

I want her to be alive, and to suffer for a very, very long time, in full knowledge of just exactly how much she has messed up and betrayed all her former ideals. I want her to know exactly how wrong she has been, and I want that knowledge to make her miserable to the point of suicide.

As long as that happens, I don't really care if she dies afterwards, turns Blackguard, or is eventually redeemed.

Edit: And no, I don't think it will happen yet. I'm pretty sure Miko will emerge from the rubble of the castle still firmly convinced that she's right about everything.

[Post]

Miko a sympathy character? You are serious?

She is intended to be entirely unsympathetic. We are supposed to dislike her. Just not as badly as many posters seem to. She is to be annoying and we are to cheer when she suffers various undeserved humiliations.

Miko, as someone said, is a tragedy character without any of the typical redeeming qualities. But's she's still tragic.

[Kreistor]

We don't know that O-Chul is alive, just intact. He might be dead and the Ginat decided he'd be stuck in that position, alive or dead. Or he gave the paralyzation the capacity to prevent further damage. Too little is known right now. The Giant does handwave in order to give certain information to the PC's. O-Chul retains the knowledge that Miko caused the destruction and didn't need to. O-Chul can tell them Miko was responsible for the destruction.

[LordVader]

Hmmm, Miko is a tragic character. Her own actions lead to her downfall. The only thing is, so far she's been unable, unlike most tragic characters, to recognize that she has caused her downfall.

[jamroar]

I don't want Miko to die, at least not yet.

I want her to be alive, and to suffer for a very, very long time, in full knowledge of just exactly how much she has messed up and betrayed all her former ideals. I want her to know exactly how wrong she has been, and I want that knowledge to make her miserable to the point of suicide.

As long as that happens, I don't really care if she dies afterwards, turns Blackguard, or is eventually redeemed.

Edit: And no, I don't think it will happen yet. I'm pretty sure Miko will emerge from the rubble of the castle still firmly convinced that she's right about everything.

I'm hoping the Twelve Gods sic an Aleax (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) on her for claiming to act in their name. Given that their former mightiest champion fell due to a comedy of error and lack of perspective rather than any conscious wrongdoing, I think they would want to set her straight. This way, if she gets killed by the Aleax, she gets the will of the gods and prescription for atonement straight from the horse's mouth as it were, which may be the only way to get through to her thick skull. Conversely, if she unfortunately prevails, it could tragically set the stage for her complete damnation in a "see by this image, which is thine own, how utterly thou hast murdered thyself" kind of way.

[BlaineTog]

I think the guy actually left.

Possibly around the time I insulted him... whoops.Didn't read your insult until right about now, actually. Life etc kept me from checking the forums.

I am, of course, now taking my leave. I had been told that this was a sympathetic forum willing to be helpful and inclusive. Go figure.

(And I can only imagine the number of "Go ahead, we don't need you!" posts in responce to this one).

[jindra34]

Didn't read your insult until right about now, actually. Life etc kept me from checking the forums.

I am, of course, now taking my leave. I had been told that this was a sympathetic forum willing to be helpful and inclusive. Go figure.

(And I can only imagine the number of "Go ahead, we don't need you!" posts in responce to this one).

The forum generally is... until you threaten to leave.

[BlaineTog]

The forum generally is... until you threaten to leave.(Posting this because I foolishly checked it after I finished clearing out my account and compulsivelly reply to responces to my threads)

To quote the first post:

And this isn't a threat or anything (who and I to threaten?), I just really, really cannot stand reading about Miko anymore and needed someone to winge to.

[Jorrath_Zek]

I think Miko needs to have died in the explosion, but not to be rid of her...

Miko needs to die, so she can find herself face to face with Roy in Lawful Good afterlife. Let Roy give her another lashing of logic with the help of Soon to push her completely over the edge.

Then, have her resurected with as many others as the clerics can put back together, and she'll be off on her quest with a new vengence believing the entire realm of Lawful Good is corrupted, and she must fix the Universe as her greater quest in service of the gods... How better to fix the Universe than to take control of a gate and use the snarl?..

And so the hilarity ensues...

[Renegade Paladin]

(Posting this because I foolishly checked it after I finished clearing out my account and compulsivelly reply to responces to my threads)

To quote the first post:
You said it wasn't, but it clearly is. After all, that's exactly what you're doing now.

[Setra]

It's kind of like saying "I'm not hurting you" while applying a crowbar to someones head.

[den452001]

oF COURSE MIKO is going to die..You see i pretty hate Miko.Sometimes she like gone out of control.Then he killed the Sapphire King something like that.Miko sure is going to die...Well if the Rich going to let Miko die...I give some conlusion how miko die...and i will let it suffer!

1st: Miko been struck by lightning on Friday the 13th.

2st: Miko in Prison and Belkar Throw a dagger stab into Miko and her horse.

__________________________________________________ _________________-
I hate her horse anyway.

[Konradexius]

Well then. 464 is up.

I guess you don't have to leave.

Great, Miko managed to leave me with a small spark of pity and compassion. Dammit.

[hanzo66]

Well, she went out with a bang certainly...


Bad pun, right?

[Yellow]

I was kinda sad when I read the comic, but then I thought of this thread and couldn't stop laughing.

I'm a bit rusty on definitions, is this irony, or just a freaky coincidence?

[Post]

And it has nothing to do with this topic, hopefully.

Happy now, Guy-with-the-pirate-avatar, you?!

[Setra]

I was sad, but also kind of pissed at the comic.

Because I knew the Miko hater populace would be in an uproar.

Looks like I'll have to avoid the OotS part of the forum before I start flaming people because they hate Miko.

Geez, I hate people who hate Miko.

[Justinian]

I was sad, but also kind of pissed at the comic.

Because I knew the Miko hater populace would be in an uproar.

Looks like I'll have to avoid the OotS part of the forum before I start flaming people because they hate Miko.

Geez, I hate people who hate Miko.

This is me in a nutshell.

[TreesOfDeath]

Face it, Miko's never going to die. Rich is obviously far too attached to her

[EvilJames]

Didn't read your insult until right about now, actually. Life etc kept me from checking the forums.

I am, of course, now taking my leave. I had been told that this was a sympathetic forum willing to be helpful and inclusive. Go figure.

(And I can only imagine the number of "Go ahead, we don't need you!" posts
in responce to this one).

To quote the first post:
Quote:Originally Posted by Me
And this isn't a threat or anything (who and I to threaten?), I just really, really cannot stand reading about Miko anymore and needed someone to winge to.
A couple of points
1) What exactly were you seeking help with?
2) You were indeed threatening any time youmake a " if this does/doesn't happen then I will do/not do this you are either making a threat or a promise*






*the promise part is assuming you are a man of your word of coarse.

[Pvednes]

Well. There you go.

[BlaineTog]

Back to say "sweet," and though I'm leery of rezzes and afterlife sequences, maybe Soon's little speach made her less/not annoying.


2) You were indeed threatening any time you make a " if this does/doesn't happen then I will do/not do this you are either making a threat or a promise*Not true. It's like I'm at a party and all they're playing is techno and techno gives me a headache (it doesn't, but let's say it does) and I lean over to my buddy and say "Dude, if the music doesn't change soon, I'm gonna head out." Not a threat, just a statement using the future subjunctive.

[Ridureyu]

Face it, Miko's never going to die. Rich is obviously far too attached to her

[Nelson Laugh]Ha-HA![/Nelson Laugh]

[EvilJames]

Back to say "sweet," and though I'm leery of rezzes and afterlife sequences, maybe Soon's little speach made her less/not annoying.

Not true. It's like I'm at a party and all they're playing is techno and techno gives me a headache (it doesn't, but let's say it does) and I lean over to my buddy and say "Dude, if the music doesn't change soon, I'm gonna head out." Not a threat, just a statement using the future subjunctive.

or it would be true if you had only whispered it to a friend instead of announcing it publicly, (that why I gave the other option although in retrospect "statement of fact" might have been a better name than promise)
You may not intend it as a threat but you are implying that your leaving will amount to a loss in some way here.

Also please note that i don't mean threat in a physical way just that you are threatening a course of action if someone else doesn't take a specific coarse of action. Had you said "I may leave" or "I might lose interest" it would have significantly lessoned the threatening (unless of coarse you happen to be a mobster, in which case the reverse is true:smallbiggrin: )

[Aotrs Commander]

Back to say "sweet," and though I'm leery of rezzes and afterlife sequences, maybe Soon's little speach made her less/not annoying.


I'm just floating on cloud here. Miko down, just Gladiator and the Shi'Ar to go and I'm golden.



(And don't let a few snippy responces drive you off! Admittedly, your post was sort of akin to posting a Paladin/alignment/DMPC thread on the D&D boards, but hey, unlive and learn right? Let it go and just revel in the moment of victory!)

[Erom]

Ding-dong, the witch is dead. Hooray!

Rich did a good job writing Miko - she was actually so annoying I didn't enjoy her presence! Boy am I glad she died - even if she comes back, she's so annoying that it was just so much _fun_ to watch her suffer and expire!

[BlaineTog]

or it would be true if you had only whispered it to a friend instead of announcing it publicly, (that why I gave the other option although in retrospect "statement of fact" might have been a better name than promise)I would hardly consider a message board thread as a "public announcement" in the same way of publicly announcing something at a party.


You may not intend it as a threat but you are implying that your leaving will amount to a loss in some way here.It will. To me.

In any case, even if we assume that there are these phantom implications, the words "this is not a threat" are pretty cut-and-dry. If I had said them while pointing a gun to someone's head, well yeah, then they'd be pretty much a lie, but the only thing I was "threatening" to do was to leave, which clearly affects none of you in any way.

[TARINunit9]

Miko needs to die... She just did :smallbiggrin: !

[Tirjasdyn]

So essentially this boils down to the whole "I want more one liners and D&D jokes and less plot and character development arcs" vs. "I want more characterization and deep plots and fewer throw-away gags" argument about whether or not OotS is going downhill/getting better? That's how it seems to be coming across to me.


Considering how static a character Miko is, that's funny. She a stereotypical paladin. She doesn't change, she has no growth and now even in death (which isn't heaven because her celestial mount has "visit" her) she didn't change at all.

There has never been any growth with Miko. Even as a non-paladin she never changed.

[Ridureyu]

Guys, Miko is never going to die. She's too important to the plot. Miko will be around forever!

[Snipers_Promise]

Even though I didn't like Miko that much, that was sad. I feel a small degree of pity. God Speed Miko, God Speed. Also this thread has high amounts of irony.

[Puck]

Muhahahahaha!!!

Miko didn't just die. She was ripped in half, and denied entrance into heaven.

Beautiful.

[lacesmcawesome]

Your wish...

is Rich's command.

Seriously, i was kinda sad about it. I kinda had hoped (or was trying to hope) that she could redeem herself eventually..

That ship kinda sailed. far. far. away.

[TinSoldier]

Muhahahahaha!!!

Miko didn't just die. She was ripped in half, and denied entrance into heaven.

Beautiful.Puck, you suck.

Haha! Just kidding. Being right is the most annoying thing in the world. Just like a paladin.

You know, bards don't suffer from that particular malady...

[ShiningTed]

Three quick observaments, made many times elsewhere but worth repeating on this thread:

1) I don't believe Rich getting rid of Miko had anything at all to do with this thread or any specific other like it (although he may have been bummed in general about the overall effect Miko had on the board).

2) The comic was beautifully handled: Miko remained herself to the very end ("That's why you're here, right? To thank me?" - that alone was worth a thousand deaths!!! :smallfurious: ) but still elicited sympathy, and a Ghost-Martyr escort into the afterlife (no small honour) albeit to some NG or LN demesne, no doubt. Soon was a paladin RPed to perfection: noble, compassionate, just, balanced and fair. This was truly one of Rich's moments of sheer genius.

3) To everyone who thinks paladins are like Miko: please see previous comment.

[EvilJames]

Muhahahahaha!!!

Miko didn't just die. She was ripped in half, and denied entrance into heaven.

Beautiful.

And likly sent to a diferent heaven if she was even actually denied entrance in the first place (only time will tell)

[Adoniis]

I was sad, but also kind of pissed at the comic.

Because I knew the Miko hater populace would be in an uproar.

Looks like I'll have to avoid the OotS part of the forum before I start flaming people because they hate Miko.

Geez, I hate people who hate Miko.

You hate people and want to flame them because they hate a character you like? That is pretty narrow minded. I don't hate you for liking her....

[Puck]

Puck, you suck. Haha! Just kidding. Being right is the most annoying thing in the world. Just like a paladin.

You know you love me.


You know, bards don't suffer from that particular malady...

...


And likly sent to a diferent heaven if she was even actually denied entrance in the first place (only time will tell)

Keep on hoping.

Hopefully, we'll get a panel of her roasting in some nether hell, someday.

Muhahahahahaha!!!!

[Cyborg Pirate]

Happy now, Guy-with-the-pirate-avatar, you?!

Definatly happy! Miko's out of the picture (at least for the time being), I'm actually looking foreward to the next strip, and we can now focus on the rest!

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: Happy Happy! :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

Definatly happy! Miko's out of the picture (at least for the time being), I'm actually looking foreward to the next strip, and we can now focus on the rest!

I am reminded of a Groo cartoon. One of his enemies [i.e. someone who had met him] was under the impression Groo was dead. After a major celebration, he gets back to work, and finds that his entire schedule consisted of various forms of "hate Groo". There was nothing left.

Miko won't leave that big a hole, but the comic will be less interesting in her absence.

[Cyborg Pirate]

Miko won't leave that big a hole, but the comic will be less interesting in her absence.

For you maybe. For me, this has completely renewed my interest in the comic.

[Darilian]

Always nice to see that there are people who are completely enraptured with Stick Figures- either For or Against. *shaking head*

Rich, you are a master of your art form- to see this much fuss over so little- I salute you! :smallsmile:

Darilian