Mystic Theurge

[ocato]

Cleric = great class
Wizard = great class

I've never played a Mystic Theurge, and I can see how it is pretty rough with a little MAD. And it probably leans towards using the unarmored (cloistered?) cleric, (which by the way can someone link me?) but is gaining dual spell casting worth losing the levels you need to learn 2nd level spells of both? Well, as I see it, a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge is going to be a Wizard 3 levels behind and a cleric 3 levels behind simultaineously. I guess what I am asking is: Is double casting worth being behind the curve a little?

[Setra]

I believe the following image will express my feelings. (Yes I'm copying someone else).

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/8970/satrapyg1.jpg

Admittedly my image is different. The message is the same.

[TheLogman]

It is though, at level 10 Mystic Theurge, you're getting 7th level Cleric and Wizard Spells when all your friends would be getting level 9's. He's got spunk that guy, and almost double spells for someone his level, but you give up Wish, Time Stop, Polymorph any object, and I think Forcecage just to scratch the surface of the tip of the iceberg. Unless you love having crap-loads of spells, and don't mind ever getting anything good when everyone else does, it's an okay class.

[Aquaseafoam]

I don't see an Image.

Persoanlly, I think Psion/Wizard/Cerebremancer is the best one. Absolutely no MAD problems.

[Emperor Tippy]

MT is only worth it if you get in early with cheese.

[GryffonDurime]

Like all DnD classes, it really depends on your situation.

In a standard campaign, or a party replete with arcane and divine casters? You are going to suck horribly: your spells are more easily defeated, and you lack the most potent options at any given level.

With that said...in a party of low magical support, you are versatility on a stick. Your power level will also be more in-keeping with the rest of the party. The general consensus is that most double-casting PrCs aren't worth it from a mechanical perspective for you, the single player. I'm personally of the opinion that they have a definite place in certain parties, or in creating a more balanced level of power while simultaneously giving you, the one player, a great deal of leeway to be a little reckless with spellslinging.

If you do decide to try your hand at the Theurge, I would recommend going either Wizard/Archivist or Sorcerer/Favored Soul...but there a plethora of combinations to choose from now.

Additional: If more caster PrCs were built with balance in mind, we'd probably see a minimum loss of 1-2 caster levels...as things stand, a Theurge can still gain access to prepared 9th level spells.

[ocato]

Let's say, hypothetically, you feel that Wish, Time Stop, Polymorph any object, and Forcecage are terribly overpowered spells that can ruin games and make other players feel completely useless. Also, a 3 Wizard/3 cleric/14 Mystic Theurge also gets a small amount of L9 spells at L20, as if he were a L17 wizard and a L17 cleric. Again, I'm not defending the class, but it seems like it's major weakness is that it's light on wizard/cleric cheese spells and gives a whole heaping load of the middle of the road stuff that is fairly balanced and fun.

[GryffonDurime]

Let's say, hypothetically, you feel that Wish, Time Stop, Polymorph any object, and Forcecage are terribly overpowered spells that can ruin games and make other players feel completely useless. Also, a 3 Wizard/3 cleric/14 Mystic Theurge also gets a small amount of L9 spells at L20, as if he were a L17 wizard and a L17 cleric. Again, I'm not defending the class, but it seems like it's major weakness is that it's light on wizard/cleric cheese spells and gives a whole heaping load of the middle of the road stuff that is fairly balanced and fun.

One problem: you can't take levels in a PrC beyond 10 unless the class is more than 10 levels, or you've entered Epic Territory.

[Ramza00]

Forget Mystic Theurge without early entry. It is a trap. If you are only 2 lvls behind it is bearable, if you are 1 lvl behind and it is single casting stat you are ahead than most "plain non prestige class builds." (things though such as incantrix and IotSV are still better).

Play a cleric with the magic/spell domains.

Or play a new option. An Archivist with 1 level or more of Holt Wardent (fulll divine casting prc). Due to this text.


Plant Affinity (Ex): You are magically attuned to plants. If you prepare your spells in advance and do not have the spontaneous
casting ability (as the cleric and druid spellcasting feature, see PH 32 and 35), you can now spontaneously trade prepared spells for spells of an equal or lower level from the Plant domain. If you do have a spontaneous casting ability, you can exchange that one for the ability to cast spontaneously
from the Plant domain. Once you make that decision, it cannot be reversed. If you do not already have bonus domain spells, you now gain bonus spells from the Plant domain (see the cleric spellcasting feature, PH 32) as if you were a cleric with access to that domain. If you already have domain spells, they are unaffected by this power.

An archivist now has access to Domain Spell Slots, and thus can now use the AnySpell and Greater AnySpell line. Additionally with things such as contemplative or other things that grant domains you can now prep things besides the plant line of spells in these domain spell slots.

[StickMan]

I think its a fun class from a roleplaying standpoint and in certain situations. Like hey were being attacked by say an army of Hobgoblins and Zombies, your not going to run out of spells any time soon you can just cast and cast and kill off all the low level stuff. And if you do go with the class don't even buy a weapon after all the only thing you will do every turn is cast your spells, well at least at higher levels.

[Ramza00]

One problem: you can't take levels in a PrC beyond 10 unless the class is more than 10 levels, or you've entered Epic Territory.

Agreed normally. One prc changes this (but is in questionable terrority when you do this.) Legendary Champion.

[ocato]

One problem: you can't take levels in a PrC beyond 10 unless the class is more than 10 levels, or you've entered Epic Territory.

Hmm, so it's a class that is good if you're going to add on 7 PrCs and make Pun Pun scoff at your insolence?

[GryffonDurime]

As you can see, the question of optimization is almost inherent in this board.

I'd argue that the Mystic Theurge is a completely viable class for those who don't want to win Dungeons and Dragons. It provides more spells per day than you could ever use, and let's face it: even without 9th level spells, even being a spell level behind primary casters...any decently built Mystic Theurge can probably outshine any Monk, Fighter, Hexblade, Barbarian...basically, any non-caster. He stands at a comfortable middle ground between underpowered and utterly broken.

Granted, if he had a few flavorful or useful abilities in the style of newer dual-casting classes, he'd probably win more fans; but he was the original. He paved the way for the good (Ultimate Magus, Anima Mage, Eldritch Disciple) and the bad (most other duals).


Hmm, so it's a class that is good if you're going to add on 7 PrCs and make Pun Pun scoff at your insolence?

Your assertion confuses me. After 10 levels of Theurge, you've only got four pre-epic levels left in the first place.

[Setra]

I don't see an Image.
How about now?

[ocato]

What I meant was, it seems that the earliest you could get into Mystic Theurge is around 6, if you didn't use things I think are a bit off (like a class granting a clerical domain to it's spell list counting for dual casting), and that optimally, you are going in much lower than that. So do the people who go in much lower just... go back to either their arcane or divine casting class?
It seems to invite another PrC (or more than 1) to make one of the 'slash' builds I often see.

Like. X 5/Y 3/Z 4/X 1/A 4/B 3

[GryffonDurime]

What I meant was, it seems that the earliest you could get into Mystic Theurge is around 6, if you didn't use things I think are a bit off (like a class granting a clerical domain to it's spell list counting for dual casting), and that optimally, you are going in much lower than that. So do the people who go in much lower just... go back to either their arcane or divine casting class?
It seems to invite another PrC (or more than 1) to make one of the 'slash' builds I often see.

Like. X 5/Y 3/Z 4/X 1/A 4/B 3

Yes, most people cap their time in the Mystic Theurge with another Prestige Class. You're equating PrCs to optimizing on a grand scale but...that's really not that feasible. Oh, and just granting domains wouldn't make you eligible for this, you don't have a divine class to progress.

With that said, I'd think some common caps would be things like Archmage: you've certainly got spell-slots to burn.

[ocato]

I admit that I am coming off a bit of a closeted approach to PrCs. I used to avoid them like the plague, and am slowly warming up to the idea. I didn't mean to be the guy screaming that everyone is over optimising or something. It seems like an interesting class to play, being as my problem with every Wizard I've played has been standing back and trying not to use up all my spells too soon. Granted, I was lower levels, but it was still boring to be fairly useless outside of spells and to have limited spells.

[GryffonDurime]

I admit that I am coming off a bit of a closeted approach to PrCs. I used to avoid them like the plague, and am slowly warming up to the idea. I didn't mean to be the guy screaming that everyone is over optimising or something. It seems like an interesting class to play, being as my problem with every Wizard I've played has been standing back and trying not to use up all my spells too soon. Granted, I was lower levels, but it was still boring to be fairly useless outside of spells and to have limited spells.

I've known a few friends who had the same perception of Prestige Classes...but the honest fact is that they can be just as broken or just as weak as taking any given base class. They're a tool for tweaking your character's abilities, and any well-built Prestige Class should give you new options at the expense of some old ones. Let me just say this: spell slots are by far the most abusable class feature ever invented, especially when you allow extended spell list sources. No other class feature gives you a blank check to search through hundreds of options, sometimes rearranging daily, and pick your own abilities. If any other class gets it as a class feature, you can be pretty sure that a full caster of an equivalent level can probably find a spell somewhere that does it.

So when you can exchange spell-levels and slots for unique abilities like dual-casting or augmented metamagic...it really is a heavy trade-off.

[ocato]

Makes good sense to me. Maybe when I'm in my brain a little firmer (new meds today...) I'll give this another look over and consider playing one. I can see how a Sorcerer/Cleric would be interesting from the 'both like Charisma, one prepares and one spontainously casts' point of view. I don't really like Favored souls that much.

[Ramza00]

ocato since you are new to prestige classes, I will alert you to the probably most optimized mystic theruge build there is. (not counting Ur Priest builds.)

http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12587286&postcount=146

Archvist and Wizard casting, both 2 levels behind a normal Archivist and Wizard. Assuming 18 starting Int I compare the normal spell slots you would get. Note though you don't gain any class features besides the spell slots. Spell slots are great, but at this point you have more spells slots than you can use, and you are still 1 spell level behind than normal.

Thus while a very powerful build,a build more powerful than a Wizard 20. Yet even with the early entry trick, there are far more broken things.

[GryffonDurime]

ocato since you are new to prestige classes, I will alert you to the probably most optimized mystic theruge build there is. (not counting Ur Priest builds.)

http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12587286&postcount=146

Archvist and Wizard casting, both 2 levels behind a normal Archivist and Wizard. Assuming 18 starting Int I compare the normal spell slots you would get. Note though you don't gain any class features besides the spell slots. Spell slots are great, but at this point you have more spells slots than you can use, and you are still 1 spell level behind than normal.

Thus while a very powerful build,a build more powerful than a Wizard 20. Yet even with the early entry trick, there are far more broken things.

...He wants reasons to try Prestige Classes without feeling like a crazed optimization monkey.

So posting broken builds is not only probably not what he was looking for...but also kind of defeats the whole argument for Prestige Classes. I mean, if you thought Prestige Classes were inherently optimized, would posting an utterly insane abuse of obscure combinations really convince you that they weren't?

[Ramza00]

...He wants reasons to try Prestige Classes without feeling like a crazed optimization monkey.

So posting broken builds is not only probably not what he was looking for...but also kind of defeats the whole argument for Prestige Classes. I mean, if you thought Prestige Classes were inherently optimized, would posting an utterly insane abuse of obscure combinations really convince you that they weren't?

My arguement that this is the most broken you can do. It is an insane build, everything else though is much less. And even with all the broken stuff it isn't that much better.

Make sense?

But my prespective may be skewed, i may have already made his jaw dropped and because of that he may get scared/reactionary and say no prestige classes once again.

[GryffonDurime]

My arguement that this is the most broken you can do. It is an insane build, everything else though is much less. And even with all the broken stuff it isn't that much better.

Make sense?

But my prespective may be skewed, i may have already made his jaw dropped and because of that he may get scared/reactionary and say no prestige classes once again.

I understand your reasoning, but that last bit was my fear. :smallwink:

[Ponce]

I'm playing a solo campaign with a Wizard/Cloistered Cleric/Mystic Theurge. In a solo or limited player campaign the class can be rather useful, as it completes multiple functions at once, though at reduced strength. In a campaign that already has a dedicated arcane or divine spellcaster, it can be rather disheartening to have another character outplaying you at every turn. Then again, people still play monks and fighters, so I don't see what the big deal is. Playing a theurge will result in a greater bulk of spell slots, which could prove useful in a high-endurance campaign.

What sort of campaign are you playing?

[Jack_Simth]

Cleric = great class
Wizard = great class

I've never played a Mystic Theurge, and I can see how it is pretty rough with a little MAD. And it probably leans towards using the unarmored (cloistered?) cleric, (which by the way can someone link me?) but is gaining dual spell casting worth losing the levels you need to learn 2nd level spells of both? Well, as I see it, a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge is going to be a Wizard 3 levels behind and a cleric 3 levels behind simultaineously. I guess what I am asking is: Is double casting worth being behind the curve a little?
In general? Not so much.

With the "basic" Mystic Theurge build, at 7th, you cast as a Wiz-4 Cleric-4. You've got 2nd level spells - Invisibility, Scorching Ray, Web, Shatter, Sheild Other, Lesser Restoration, and the like. At this point, a pure Wizard would be getting 4th level spells; Black Tentacles, Arcane Eye, Scrying and the like; if you run up against a Wizard that casts Lesser Globe of Invulnerability (Sor/Wiz 4), you've got nothing you can really do (you don't get 4th level spells until 10th level). Likewise, at this point, the Cleric-7 is playing around with Divine Power, Spell Immunity, and Divination.

That said, there is a limited set of circumstances where it's a good choice - skilled DM that will compensate for the mechanically weaker position you're character is in, when you've got a smaller than normal party, mostly. In pretty much every other circumstance, it really only works out if you can cheese up the build to get ahead of the game - such as the Bard/Mindbender/Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge build (which, towards the end of it's progression, is getting clerical spells before the cleric would).

[Dausuul]

The way I see it, mystic theurge is a pretty balanced class, assuming you optimize it well. It only looks weak because it's being compared to single-class full casters, which are broken. Basically, follow the Logic Ninja's guide for your wizard half, use your cleric half for healing and buffs, and you'll have a versatile, reasonably effective caster who never ever runs out of spells. You won't compare to a similarly optimized straight caster, but you'll hold your own quite nicely in a non-caster party.

[Glyphic]

Silly question, but I take it taking three levels in the "adept" NPC class wouldn't qualify for the requirements of the mystic? (and wouldn't do much as they choose from a mix of arcane and divine, meaning you'd essentiall only get +1 spellcasting level anyway..)

[Dhavaer]

Silly question, but I take it taking three levels in the "adept" NPC class wouldn't qualify for the requirements of the mystic? (and wouldn't do much as they choose from a mix of arcane and divine, meaning you'd essentiall only get +1 spellcasting level anyway..)

No, but four levels and three or four of an Arcane casting class would.

[TheOOB]

Silly question, but I take it taking three levels in the "adept" NPC class wouldn't qualify for the requirements of the mystic? (and wouldn't do much as they choose from a mix of arcane and divine, meaning you'd essentiall only get +1 spellcasting level anyway..)

Whether a spell is arcane or divine is based on the class that casts them, not the spell itself. Adepts are divine casters, thus all their spells are divine, even lightning bolt.

[Glyphic]

Cool, and Thank you. :)

[AtomicKitKat]

Granted, if he had a few flavorful or useful abilities in the style of newer dual-casting classes, he'd probably win more fans; but he was the original. He paved the way for the good (Ultimate Magus, Anima Mage, Eldritch Disciple) and the bad (most other duals).

What about Arcane Heirophant? For what it's worth, it toughens up your familiar/companion(well, just collapses all abilities onto the companion, but c'est la vie), makes you have to wait only 1 day for replacements(as opposed to the insane 1 year 1 day that familiars need), advances wild-shaping, advances both casting levels, advances effective levels for familiar/AC abilities, and grants the ability to channel spells through plants(limited times a day, but you can mess with people by making them think the tree is a monster entangling them).

[Yuki Akuma]

Who cares if you have a thousand spell slots per day? You only get to cast a maximum of two spells a round. You're going to, on average, have four combats a day, and combats tend not to last longer than three or four rounds.

So, you're a caster without access to 8th or 9th level spells, who has so many spell slots he'll never run out of spells.

Doesn't that make all those extra spell slots useless?

[Saph]

So, you're a caster without access to 8th or 9th level spells, who has so many spell slots he'll never run out of spells.

Doesn't that make all those extra spell slots useless?

I dunno. I find that when I'm playing prepared casters, I never have enough spell slots. I've never played at a level where I actually had a surplus, but if I did, I'm sure I could find something to do with them.

Of course it's less powerful than maxing out your casting level, but as several people have pointed out already, full casters are overpowered enough that maxing out their power is often a bad idea in normal D&D games.

- Saph

[Roderick_BR]

I wouldn't say that his vantage is more spell slots/days, but the versatility, as he gain access to two spell lists. Losing 8th and 9th level spells may be balanced out for being able to cast 5th, 6th and 7th level from both classes, and if your DM prefer not to deal with high level cheese. It's more a matter of talking to your DM what would be better for the campaign.

[Ramza00]

Who cares if you have a thousand spell slots per day? You only get to cast a maximum of two spells a round. You're going to, on average, have four combats a day, and combats tend not to last longer than three or four rounds.

So, you're a caster without access to 8th or 9th level spells, who has so many spell slots he'll never run out of spells.

Doesn't that make all those extra spell slots useless?

Bingo, this is the problem with mystic theurge, and delaying your spell list by 3 lvls or even 2 lvls hurts, for Arcane 9th is usually better than twice as many 8th lvl spells (Arcane and Divine, additionally you don't get twice as many due to bonus spells via different stats and the fact you usually get a 2nd or 3rd N-1 spell during those 3 lvls where N is the highest level spell you get.

----------------------

There is a nice small advantage though of mystic theurge, by having more spell slots you can prepare spells that would not normally be advantageous but they may be very helpful in special encounters. (you may only use 12 high lvl spells per day, but by having more than 12 high lvl spells per day you can have a spell for every unque type of encounter) More of a backup batman style of play. Thing is while this is nice it doesn't make up for being 3 spell levels behind. Though it can make up for things if you are only 1 or 2 lvls behind.

[Person_Man]

Yeah, we've debated this a million times. And I've played a Mystic Theurge in a long term campaign (back when 3.5 first came out).

The general consensus is usually that Theurge classes are much less powerful then casters with full progression, but still useful and generally more powerful then non-casters. Compared to a strait Wizard X/full progression PrC Y, the Mystic Theurge sucks. This is especially at low levels, when you're stuck on first and second level spells, and your friend is casting Fly, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility, Stoneskin, Polymorph, etc. It's even more true if your friend is a fully armored Cleric/full caster PrC with the right domains (Time, Travel, Trickery, Slime, etc) or a Druid.

But compared to many other classes, particularly Skill Monkeys, a Mystic Theurge can solve a lot of Skill encounters with their wide variety of spells, and can still provide useful support in combat.

Plus there's the exception of bizarre spell progression PrC/Theurges, like the Ur Priest or Nar Demonbinder.

On balance though, there's no mechanically compelling reason to play a Theurge build unless you're in a very small party where no one else is playing a spellcaster.

[Flawless]

Uhmm, I have a question that is slightly off-topic concerning the Cerebremancer (which is some kind of a MT variant):

Can you enter the PrC at level 5? With psion3 / wizard1? Does Precocious Apprentice work here? I know it doesn't work with two spellcasting classes. But what about one spellcasting and one manifesting class?

[Green Bean]

Granted, if he had a few flavorful or useful abilities in the style of newer dual-casting classes, he'd probably win more fans; but he was the original. He paved the way for the good (Ultimate Magus, Anima Mage, Eldritch Disciple) and the bad (most other duals).


I'm in total agreement with you here. I mean, arcane and divine magic are the two fundamental magical forces in the world. Learning how to bring them together should have some sort of bonus, unlike the current, "by focusing on combining the divine and arcane, I can cast divine and arcane." Sure, their spells are great on their own, but there should be some way to utilize them together.

[Merlin the Tuna]

There is a nice small advantage though of mystic theurge, by having more spell slots you can prepare spells that would not normally be advantageous but they may be very helpful in special encounters.Yeah... but the problem with this is that a Druid can do that too, and he can turn into a bear and eat people. The Cleric as well (to perhaps a lesser extent, I'd argue), but it's still a situation of not necessarily gaining much.


Can you enter the PrC at level 5? With psion3 / wizard1? Does Precocious Apprentice work here? I know it doesn't work with two spellcasting classes. But what about one spellcasting and one manifesting class?I'd say... probably, by the books, but probably not in practice. I know that I as a DM probably wouldn't be convinced that there's an appreciable difference in the situations except in terms of vocabulary. A DM might also make a big hullabloo about the MT requiring the ability to cast 2nd level spells (which PA doesn't do), but it should be noted that such a ruling would also force Sorcerers to reach 5th level to enter the class, as they know only a single 2nd level spell at 4th.

[Dausuul]

Yeah... but the problem with this is that a Druid can do that too, and he can turn into a bear and eat people. The Cleric as well (to perhaps a lesser extent, I'd argue), but it's still a situation of not necessarily gaining much.

I'd say... probably, by the books, but probably not in practice. I know that I as a DM probably wouldn't be convinced that there's an appreciable difference in the situations except in terms of vocabulary. A DM might also make a big hullabloo about the MT requiring the ability to cast 2nd level spells (which PA doesn't do), but it should be noted that such a ruling would also force Sorcerers to reach 5th level to enter the class, as they know only a single 2nd level spell at 4th.

As I recall, WotC has a ruling on the subject, which is a bit convoluted and IMO rather dubious, but boils down to, "No, you can't do that."

[Ramza00]

Uhmm, I have a question that is slightly off-topic concerning the Cerebremancer (which is some kind of a MT variant):

Can you enter the PrC at level 5? With psion3 / wizard1? Does Precocious Apprentice work here? I know it doesn't work with two spellcasting classes. But what about one spellcasting and one manifesting class?
According to the RAW and customer service yes you can.

The original designer of the feat though did not intended for it to be this way.

so in sum by the rules yes you can, until your DM houserules it :smallsmile:

[ocato]

I'm sorry, I might have missed a bit. The Precocious Apprentice feat does or does not allow the MT to be taken much earlier? Because I can see how that'd make the class far more palletable.

[SilverClawShift]

Something to consider...

The most common complaint about the mystic theurge ("You're 3 levels behind full caster!") is absolutely correct and perfectly valid. Losing 3 caster levels when you're a full caster is a bit painful.

The second most common complaint is about late-game mystic theurges. You take Wizard-3 and Cleric-3, and then you take Mystic Theurge-10. You can't take a PRC above 10th level pre-epic.
I see a lot of people complain that "Wizard-5, Cleric-5, Mystic Theurge-10 means you don't get any 9th level spell slots!". The argument being that you miss out on the most powerful spells to double your spell list in both classes.

For some reason, I've never seen anyone point this out.

Wizard 7, Cleric 3, Mystic Theurge 10.

You're still behind other pure casters, and you're 3 levels lower on caster level checks and related issues.

But you're a 17th level wizard and a 13th level cleric. 17th level wizards have access to 9th level arcane spells. 13th level clerics have access to Heal and Greater Restoration. And a lot else. Regenerate. Ressurection. Mass Cure Serious Wounds.

Gonna say that again. You're a wizard who can cast 9th level arcane spells, and can also cast heal and greater restoration.

Time Stop, Wish, Heal, Greater Restoration.

Welcome to deity-ville. Population, You.

[Ramza00]

I'm sorry, I might have missed a bit. The Precocious Apprentice feat does or does not allow the MT to be taken much earlier? Because I can see how that'd make the class far more palletable.

I'm sorry, I might have missed a bit. The Precocious Apprentice feat does or does not allow the MT to be taken much earlier? Because I can see how that'd make the class far more palletable.
By Raw no.

PA gives you a "special" 2nd lvl spell and spell slot. When you gain access to 2nd lvl spells normally, either arcane or divine spells, you lose access to this spell/slot for it becomes the same type of slot you gain for arcane or divine. Thus you have a 2nd lvl spell known, but as soon as you get cleric 3 or druid 3 you lose access to this 2nd lvl spell slot to cast your 2nd lvl arcane spell.

Cerbemancer, Eldritch Disciple, Anima Mage, and Noctumancer don't have this problem for the 2nd side of their doubly isn't spells, its psionics, binder, mysteries, warlock, etc.

So in sum PA doesn't work with Mystic Theurge and Arcane Hierophant, it works for all other doubly classes.

[Ramza00]

Something to consider...

The most common complaint about the mystic theurge ("You're 3 levels behind full caster!") is absolutely correct and perfectly valid. Losing 3 caster levels when you're a full caster is a bit painful.

The second most common complaint is about late-game mystic theurges. You take Wizard-3 and Cleric-3, and then you take Mystic Theurge-10. You can't take a PRC above 10th level pre-epic.
I see a lot of people complain that "Wizard-5, Cleric-5, Mystic Theurge-10 means you don't get any 9th level spell slots!". The argument being that you miss out on the most powerful spells to double your spell list in both classes.

For some reason, I've never seen anyone point this out.

Wizard 7, Cleric 3, Mystic Theurge 10.

You're still behind other pure casters, and you're 3 levels lower on caster level checks and related issues.

But you're a 17th level wizard and a 13th level cleric. 17th level wizards have access to 9th level arcane spells. 13th level clerics have access to Heal and Greater Restoration. And a lot else. Regenerate. Ressurection. Mass Cure Serious Wounds.

Gonna say that again. You're a wizard who can cast 9th level arcane spells, and can also cast heal and greater restoration.

Time Stop, Wish, Heal, Greater Restoration.

Welcome to deity-ville. Population, You.

Access to those spells are almost never worth being 3 levels behind. If you desperately need access to heal or greater restoration, that is what limited wish is for (whose xp cost is not very much by the time you got 9th lvl spells.)

Also a Wizard 20 vs a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/X 4 has 3 less 9th lvl slots than a pure wizard, this is a big difference.

[Jack_Simth]

Silverclaw:

It's commonly done in practice (well, usually with some PrC, such as Archmage or whatever) - but you're still 3 levels behind; you're getting your first Time Stop at 20th, while your pureclassed Wizard friend has three prepared today, and got his first at 17th.

Also, try the Wiz-3/Druid-3/Mystic Theurge-4/Arcane Heirophant-10
9th level Wizard spells AND 9th level Druid spells. Plus some other nifties.

[Gavin Sage]

Access to those spells are almost never worth being 3 levels behind. If you desperately need access to heal or greater restoration, that is what limited wish is for (whose xp cost is not very much by the time you got 9th lvl spells.)

Also a Wizard 20 vs a Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10/X 4 has 3 less 9th lvl slots than a pure wizard, this is a big difference.

Greater Restoration, 7th Level Cleric spell
Heal, 6th level Cleric spell

Limited Wish: Any Wiz/Sor Spell of 6th level or lower, any other spell of 5th level or lower

What was that now? You are going outside what's about the most defined bounds of Limited Wish, spell casting. That's the sort of things GM's should punish you for, or at least only allow once with some heavier XP cost or something. You can't even reach Greater Restoration on full Wish by the guidelines.

And the way people talk I thought Time Stop was supposed to be the sort of thing that you only needed 1 of. It certainly goes a long way against not having any at all. Extra 9th level spells versus being able to Heal yourself while still having a 9th level spell, is not something I consider too bad a trade. There is something to be said for versatility I think

[Jack_Simth]

Greater Restoration, 7th Level Cleric spell
Heal, 6th level Cleric spell

Limited Wish: Any Wiz/Sor Spell of 6th level or lower, any other spell of 5th level or lower

What was that now? You are going outside what's about the most defined bounds of Limited Wish, spell casting. That's the sort of things GM's should punish you for, or at least only allow once with some heavier XP cost or something. You can't even reach Greater Restoration on full Wish by the guidelines.

You can get Heal off the Adept spell list - it's a 5th level spell for an Adept. Granted, you aren't getting Greater Restoration that way, though - but for the most part, Greater Restoration is a "day after" spell, as most things don't do level drains immediately, but do negative levels which can become level drains. If you keep the limited Wish on hand, you don't need to worry about it too much, as simply duping Restoration will do the job.


And the way people talk I thought Time Stop was supposed to be the sort of thing that you only needed 1 of. It certainly goes a long way against not having any at all. Extra 9th level spells versus being able to Heal yourself while still having a 9th level spell, is not something I consider too bad a trade.
When you're starting at 20+, this is true.

It's that you don't have any 9th level spells at 17th, 18th, and 19th that you'll really feel the mechanical pain as a Mystic Theurge.

Unless there aren't any pure casters in the party. Then it only hurts when the DM arranges a situation that underscores the lack (or someone points it out too hard).

There is something to be said for versatility I think
Oh, there is. Definately. But D&D is designed primarily for four specialists, and the Mystic Theurge is designed for generalist characters.

If you've got a three man party - Rogue, Fighter, Mystic Theurge - then you're fine (as long as the DM knows how to run the game approprietly for the situation). If you've got an oversized party (Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Mystic Theurge, for instance) then you'll do fairly well - as a support character. You'll only shine in a main role when the DM arranges for a run that plays to your strengths - Endurance - and the party Wizard hasn't prepared for just that with Wands/Staves.

[Tough_Tonka]

Another thing to consider is your two casting stats.

Unless you play in one of those groups where the average player has two 18s or use a 32+ point builds for your characters you might find the DCs for your spells and the amount of money you need to pay for stat buffing items unpleasent.

But then again a mystic theurge doesn't need high caster stats for quite a while.:smallbiggrin:

[Gavin Sage]

You can get Heal off the Adept spell list - it's a 5th level spell for an Adept. Granted, you aren't getting Greater Restoration that way, though - but for the most part, Greater Restoration is a "day after" spell, as most things don't do level drains immediately, but do negative levels which can become level drains. If you keep the limited Wish on hand, you don't need to worry about it too much, as simply duping Restoration will do the job.

Its not in Heal's spell description itself and is from an NPC class. That's getting pretty cagey if you ask me. Any spell as vague as the Wishes should be kept on a short short leash.

As for Greater Restoration it is only moderately useful anyways. I daresay, the bulk of healing needs are dealt with at levels an MT has plenty of access to already, making them a fair choice if you don't have a healer or the cleric wants to be more esoteric. I just didn't care for some claiming that it could be done effectively with.


When you're starting at 20+, this is true.

It's that you don't have any 9th level spells at 17th, 18th, and 19th that you'll really feel the mechanical pain as a Mystic Theurge.

Unless there aren't any pure casters in the party. Then it only hurts when the DM arranges a situation that underscores the lack (or someone points it out too hard).

And Mystic Theuges can get over that "I have no spells" feeling faster if you are operating in the middle levels. Not everything goes to level 20, and beyond level 20 I have to think potentially being a level 20 caster in both main areas has to have some benefits but am not hardly knowledgable enough on Epic to really want to be sure. Ultimately depends on the campaign and its length.

And if nobody else does a pure caster, or even does one that isn't what most people expect then having an MT is going to be handy.


Oh, there is. Definately. But D&D is designed primarily for four specialists, and the Mystic Theurge is designed for generalist characters.

If you've got a three man party - Rogue, Fighter, Mystic Theurge - then you're fine (as long as the DM knows how to run the game approprietly for the situation). If you've got an oversized party (Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Mystic Theurge, for instance) then you'll do fairly well - as a support character. You'll only shine in a main role when the DM arranges for a run that plays to your strengths - Endurance - and the party Wizard hasn't prepared for just that with Wands/Staves.

I can agree with almost all of that. Anything that doesn't fit neatly into the basic 4 cell design is either designed for a less "standard" group with a bigger party, or is probably over-powered.

(Only disagreement is with the wand thing. Since I've played campaigns and had the party get maybe 5 wands the whole time of which only one was useful. Wasn't that it was a low magic campaign, they just simply weren't made available. Simply put I find equipment compensation an argument that tends to rely on an "open store" assumption that the DM lets you basically get whatever you want when in town. Or that you'll be in town long enough to craft things. And having enough wands to truly compensate for versatility your actual is something I find cagey)

[ocato]

Interesting discussion so far. What seems to be the 'best' combination of classes to make a Mystic Theurge out of?

[Gavin Sage]

Without getting into real optimization with multiple prestige and odd classes etc....

I'd go with Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theuge 10, taking 4 Wizard levels after maxing MT. Cleric focus would leave a steeper stat requirement (you'd want a phyiscal score I think) plus Turning. Sorcerors have to wait a level to enter MT though its a bit better stat wise since Clerics get mileage out of charisma, but no 9th level spells until epic. Druids while casters also have a lot of special abilities from their class to get hurt with only there spells advancing. And the other spell casting classes in the core aren't worth it.

[barawn]

It's that you don't have any 9th level spells at 17th, 18th, and 19th that you'll really feel the mechanical pain as a Mystic Theurge.

Except for the fact that the Theurge will have more money available for high-level scrolls since he/she needs scrolls/wands for generic casting far less along the way.

Starting out as a 20th level character, yeah, the theurge is quite a bit weaker. But part of that, in my mind, is that wealth-per-level doesn't properly balance out since many casters tend to need to burn wealth along the way - especially the arcane casters.

(That's an interesting point, mind you - it'd be interesting to do a generic poll of, say, as many 10th level wizards who started from 1st level wizards you can find, and figure out their total wealth - compare it to druids, fighters, etc.)

[GryffonDurime]

Wu Jen 3/Druid 3/Mystic Theurge 3/Arcane Heirophant 10/Archmage 1

Combine this with the Endless Wu Jen Technique.

[Jack_Simth]

Its not in Heal's spell description itself and is from an NPC class. That's getting pretty cagey if you ask me. Any spell as vague as the Wishes should be kept on a short short leash. Granted, it is a bit much in the way of rules bendy - yet at the same time, it's still core. Sort of like how a Wizard can use Limited Wish to duplicate Plane Shift - by duplicating the 5th level Cleric version rather than the 7th level Sor/Wiz version.


As for Greater Restoration it is only moderately useful anyways.
Which is about what I said about that aspect.

I daresay, the bulk of healing needs are dealt with at levels an MT has plenty of access to already, making them a fair choice if you don't have a healer or the cleric wants to be more esoteric. I just didn't care for some claiming that it could be done effectively with.
Reasonable enough. As I've been saying, the MT is useful when you don't have dedicated casters.


And Mystic Theuges can get over that "I have no spells" feeling faster if you are operating in the middle levels.
Well... at 7th (Wiz-3/Clr-3/MT-1) the Mystic Theurge barely has any spells to speak of - three or four 2nd level Wizard spells, four 2nd level Cleric spells - while the Wiz-7 has 4 or 5 2nd level Wizard spells, 3 or 4 3rd level Wizard spells, and usually 2 or 3 4th level Wizard spells; Cleric-7 has about 5 2nd level Cleric spells, 4 3rd level cleric spells, and 2 or 3 4th level Cleric spells (counting domains). Sure, the MT-1 has more 1st and 0th level spells, and can make great use of found/bought wands - but that's about it; The pure Cleric or Wizard will have a higher number of spells at the Mystic Theurge has highest level spell slots. As higher level spells, they'll also be more effective. With a single casting stat to worry about, they'll also have better save DC's.

At 10th, the Mystic Theurge (Wiz-3/Clr-3/MT-4) has 4th level spells, while the Wizard or Cleric has 5th level spells. Mystic Theurge has two or three 4th level Wizard spells and about three 4th level Cleric spells. The Wizard-10 has about 4 or 5 4th level Wizard spells and two or three 5th level Wizard spells. The Cleric will have about 5 4th level spells and three 5th level spells. Again - the pure-classed caster has about as many highest level spell slots as does the Mystic Theurge. Sure, the Mystic Theurge has more 3rd, 2nd, 1st, and 0th level spell slots... but that's usually only going to matter in an endurance run.

This pattern continues throughout the entirety of the PrC - the pure caster is going to have as many spell slots in levels X, X+1, and X+2 (where applicable) as the MT is going to have at the highest spell level, X, until you hit the point where spell slots start to cap off (19th, where the Wizard/Cleric would otherwise start getting 10th level spells were it not for the progression cap).

If the party does an endurance run in the character level 10-16 range, the Mystic Theurge will do very well - provided the DM has arranged things such that there hasn't been sufficient recources (be that down time, cash, or what have you) for the pure caster to prepare for an endurance run by way of wands.

Not everything goes to level 20, and beyond level 20 I have to think potentially being a level 20 caster in both main areas has to have some benefits but am not hardly knowledgable enough on Epic to really want to be sure. Ultimately depends on the campaign and its length.

And if nobody else does a pure caster, or even does one that isn't what most people expect then having an MT is going to be handy.
Yeah. The Mystic Theurge also has a place as a backup caster when the primary role of a full caster isn't filled.


I can agree with almost all of that. Anything that doesn't fit neatly into the basic 4 cell design is either designed for a less "standard" group with a bigger party, or is probably over-powered.

(Only disagreement is with the wand thing. Since I've played campaigns and had the party get maybe 5 wands the whole time of which only one was useful. Wasn't that it was a low magic campaign, they just simply weren't made available. Simply put I find equipment compensation an argument that tends to rely on an "open store" assumption that the DM lets you basically get whatever you want when in town. Or that you'll be in town long enough to craft things. And having enough wands to truly compensate for versatility your actual is something I find cagey)
I didn't say the Wizard WOULD have wands available to cover the endurance run - just that the MT won't shine comparatively in an endurance run if the Wizard DOES have wands selected for the purpose.

Oh - and there's room in most "adventuring days" for Wizardly crafting - see, the Cleric (or other divine caster) can only replenish spells at a particular time of day. Only 8 hours of actual rest is needed. Crafting takes only 8 hours out of the day, spell preparation only takes one hour out of the day, which leaves 7 hours out of 24 for "other stuff". Most parties will blow through their daily recources in about 3-5 encounters ... which, with the nature of most D&D campaigns, will take about 30 minutes of campaign time (often less, although considerably more real-time). The days need not be consecutive - so if the Wizard finds he won't be able to rest and get the 8 hours crafting in today, he doesn't have to. Your basic Wand of Enervation costs 21 days to craft (market price: 21,000 gp). Cure Light Wounds, 1 day (750 gp, market). A caster level 11 wand of Scorching Ray, 17 days (16,500 gp, market). A basic Wand of Web, 5 days (4,500 gp). A caster level 5 Fireball, 12 days (11,250 gp market).

By the book, the Wizard will usually have time to Craft, provided there's the resources to do so. A Wizard without down-time, or without the recources to craft is severly gimped compared to the "standard" wizard, anyway, as it takes a full day to scribe a spell into a spellbook, unless it is gained by way of level up.

[Piccamo]

Except for the fact that the Theurge will have more money available for high-level scrolls since he/she needs scrolls/wands for generic casting far less along the way.

Starting out as a 20th level character, yeah, the theurge is quite a bit weaker. But part of that, in my mind, is that wealth-per-level doesn't properly balance out since many casters tend to need to burn wealth along the way - especially the arcane casters.

(That's an interesting point, mind you - it'd be interesting to do a generic poll of, say, as many 10th level wizards who started from 1st level wizards you can find, and figure out their total wealth - compare it to druids, fighters, etc.)

Wealth by level means you are assumed to have that much wealth in items at that level, even after consumables. You do not get penalized for using said consumables.

[Jack_Simth]

Except for the fact that the Theurge will have more money available for high-level scrolls since he/she needs scrolls/wands for generic casting far less along the way.

If Ye Olde Magjickque Iteme Shoppe, Inc., is available, then yes - mostly. The MT will be unable to craft those 9th level scrolls to use, however. Plus 9th level scrolls aren't cheap, even by 19th level wealth standards.

The Mystic Theurge is going to have difficulties, even assuming that such scrolls are available, though - there's a caster level check to activate them (unless the MT has spent the feats for Practiced Spellcaster - but that's non-core, and costs a chunk of what few feats the MT gets, so I'll ignore it for now) that risks mishap; further, scrolls by default use the minimum casting stat for the spell - so a Scroll Wierd will have a save DC of 23, while a Wizard-17 casting Wierd personally will likely have a save DC in the neighborhood of 28-30.


Starting out as a 20th level character, yeah, the theurge is quite a bit weaker. But part of that, in my mind, is that wealth-per-level doesn't properly balance out since many casters tend to need to burn wealth along the way - especially the arcane casters.

Starting at 20th, the MT is going to do all right, as most things cap at around then - it's the lead-up where it hurts most - but then it usually only hurts if there's a pure-classed spellcaster around for comparison, or the DM doesn't know how to handle a party with the different mix.


(That's an interesting point, mind you - it'd be interesting to do a generic poll of, say, as many 10th level wizards who started from 1st level wizards you can find, and figure out their total wealth - compare it to druids, fighters, etc.)
Campaigns vary - widely - in how much wealth is actually put out.

[Damionte]

There are no WOTC prestige classes that you can get into before lvl 6. Not unless you bend a rule somewhere. Not counting the prestige base classes from unearthed arcana.

Each prestige class either requires a BAB of +5 or better, or requires a skill at 8 ranks, or requires a feat or class ability combination youldn't pull off before then. or a combination of the three.

Remember that before you can take a prestige class you have to already qualify for the class. And the order of lvling begins with picking your class.

You can't qualify for it with abilities you do not yet have before you level.

[Ardantis]

The Mystic Theurge I see as most useful as a "skill monkey" support class.

Combat-wise, they are weak- because although they have more versatility in spell selection, they still only get one standard action per turn. They can only put weaker spells in that one standard action, and thus are weaker than full casters.

However, the "Batman" use of their extra spell slots and options for all sorts of creative contingencies means that they should be casting lots more spells OUT of combat. Like a Bard, throw them in as the fifth man, and let them choose weird and silly spells. Also, spells that don't require saves (like rays,) or targets that have low saves (like barns,) allow a MT to have a significant game impact outside of the four basic roles.

I enjoy them, but they'll never "win" DnD. I also can't play them because I'm incapable of managing a non-spontaneous caster class, but that's just me.

If your friends already call you Batman, play an MT.

I'd still go Wiz3/Cleric3/MT10/Wiz4 because it's not worth it to lose MORE spell levels as a spontaneous caster class.

[Ramza00]

There are no WOTC prestige classes that you can get into before lvl 6. Not unless you bend a rule somewhere. Not counting the prestige base classes from unearthed arcana.

Each prestige class either requires a BAB of +5 or better, or requires a skill at 8 ranks, or requires a feat or class ability combination youldn't pull off before then. or a combination of the three.

Remember that before you can take a prestige class you have to already qualify for the class. And the order of lvling begins with picking your class.

You can't qualify for it with abilities you do not yet have before you level.

WRONG


Early Entry Prestige Classes
class - can get in by level ##
Bloodhound (CA) ECL 5 (requires a feat to get Gather Information as a class skill (ex: City Slicker, RoD) or H-elf ranger sub level (RoD)
Church Inquisitor (CD) ecl 4
Master of Shrouds (LM) ecl 4
Darkrunner (LoM) ecl 5
Survivor (SS) ecl 2
Warchief (MH) ecl 4
Dread Witch (HoH) ecl 3/4/5?
Warshaper (CW) ecl 5
Dragonmark Heir (ECS) ecl 5
Extreme Explorer (ECS) ecl 5
Master Inquisitive (ECS) ecl 4
Walker in the Waste (Sandstorm) can take it at 4th level, 3rd if you don't worship a particular deity
Slayer (XPH) ecl 5
Stoneblessed (RoS) ecl 3
Bone Knight (Eberron Five Nations) ecl 5
Thunder Guide (Eberron: Explorer's Handbook) ecl 5
Chaotician (Planar Handbook) ecl 5
Talon of Tiamat (Draconomicon) ecl 5
Sanctified Mind (Lords of Madness) ecl 5
Tomb Warden (Libris Mortis) ecl 4
Anima Mage (Tome of Magic) ecl 2, with Precocious Apprentice, Bind Vestige, and Improved Bind Vestige
Thief of Life (Faiths of Eberron), ecl 4
Cyre Scout (Eberron: Dragonmarked), ecl 4
Deneith Warden (Eberron: Dragonmarked), ecl 5
Shadow Hunter (Eberron: Dragonmarked), ecl 5
Silver Key (Eberron: Dragonmarked), ecl 4
Storm Sentry (Eberron: Dragonmarked), ecl 5
Vandalis Beastkeeper (Eberron: Dragonmarked), ecl 5
Master Specialist (Complete Mage), ecl 4
Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft), ecl 5
Justiciar of Taiia (Deities and Demigods), ecl 5
Thief of Life, Faiths of Eberron, ecl 3 - Glimmerskin Halfling (Dragon Magic) Spellthief 1/Rogue 1, or something like that

There are even more than this small list for example the paragon classes.

[barawn]

If Ye Olde Magjickque Iteme Shoppe, Inc., is available, then yes - mostly. The MT will be unable to craft those 9th level scrolls to use, however. Plus 9th level scrolls aren't cheap, even by 19th level wealth standards.

Yeah, but he only needs them for a handful of levels. I'm not sure it wouldn't even out.


Campaigns vary - widely - in how much wealth is actually put out.

That's why you normalize by the wealth of the other characters, and average. I still think it'd be an interesting little poll - I've always found that any casters I have usually have to end up begging the party for more gold due to the fact that they keep burning costly resources.

[barawn]

Wealth by level means you are assumed to have that much wealth in items at that level, even after consumables. You do not get penalized for using said consumables.

Yes... which is the point, and why I think it's crazy. Certain spellcasters frequently use consumables more than other classes. There's no real reason to think that the classes will end up with equivalent wealth after a given amount of time.

[Thrawn183]

I think that at very low levels, oh say 5-9, the MT is severely lacking. Third and fourth level spells are very, very nice and delaying access to them really hurts. I'd also say that around levels 12-16 is where the MT starts to shine. The ability to quicken a large number of spells helps to offset the lack of actions in a round.

That said, once my straight cleric hit 7th level spells, I never had trouble with running out of them. This is my experience though, and I happily admit it could be quite different from every one elses.

MT really gets hit hard at levels 17-19. When the cleric in the party grabs miracle: duplicate any of your own spells 8th level or lower, or ANY spell 7th level or lower. The MT is no longer batman. Miracle is batman. Miracle can be exactly the right spell for any situation. That said, a MT could get miracle at 20th level... but the straight cleric would be getting 4. And would probably be getting more 9th level bonus spells per day because of having a single casting stat, in addition to not needing to raise caster level and having higher save DC's.

Maybe I should just start a thread about how rediculously made of win miracle is...

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, but he only needs them for a handful of levels. I'm not sure it wouldn't even out.

The Wiz-3/Cleric-3/MT-X/Wiz-Y has the same problem at lower levels, too - the pure spellcasters will always be at least one full level of spells ahead (Sorcerer), and most of them will be two spell levels ahead half the time (Wizard/Cleric/Druid).

At 17th, 18th, and 19th, the MT doesn't have 9th level spells, and so is mechanically hurting, power-wise, in comparison to the pure-classed Wizard, Cleric, or Druid.

At 15th, 16th, and 17th, the MT doesn't have 8th level spells, and so is mechanically hurting, power-wise, in comparison to the pure-classed Wizard, Cleric, or Druid.

At 13th, 14th, and 15th, the MT doesn't have 7th level spells, and so is mechanically hurting, power-wise, in comparison to the pure-classed Wizard, Cleric, or Druid.

...

At 5th, 6th, and 7th, the MT doesn't have 3rd level spells, and so is mechanically hurting, power-wise, in comparison to the pure-classed Wizard, Cleric, or Druid.

Don't get me wrong; the Mystic Theurge is a viable character; but the MT only shines under a comparitivly small number of types of situations. Which is, I suppose, officially the point of a PrC - specilization (although in the MT's case, it's more a fix for multiclassed spellcasters; a Cleric-8/Wiz-8 is a baggage handler in a 16th level campaign, while a Cleric-3/Wiz-3/MT-10 is a viable 16th level character).


That's why you normalize by the wealth of the other characters, and average. I still think it'd be an interesting little poll - I've always found that any casters I have usually have to end up begging the party for more gold due to the fact that they keep burning costly resources.
% above/below average, huh? Could work. You'll also want to compare XP totals, though - a Crafting wizard is liable to have a lower XP total, especially if he keeps making magic stuff for the rest of the group, but requires the character it's for covers the materials cost.