Just a thought but

[Setra]

Based on what we know of their stats...

In a war like such, how many Hobgoblins do you think the OOTS alone could have taken out?

Ignoring the factors of the Death Knight, Elementals, Redcloak, Xykon, etc.

Roy, Belkar, Haley, Elan, V, and Durkon vs. 30,000 Hobgoblins.

How many could they take out before they die?

[Icewalker]

Huh, that's an interesting calculation. Depends on several things though.

I'd say the major thing is how the DM (although OOTS doesn't have a DM, so it's how the world) functions in large-scale battles. Usually you can't use a normal system.

[Rincewind]

Roy, Belkar, Haley, Elan, V, and Durkon vs. 30,000 Hobgoblins.

How many could they take out before they die?

Six... No, seven!

[Alucard]

HHhm threw intense calculations I have come up with hhhm about all of em because well there the OOTS and its there comic and they cant die(stay dead).:smalltongue:

[Rincewind]

Seventeen? No no... That sounds over powering... Eeehh... 15?

[Lord Zentei]

Depends on the setup. If there is a large number of archers with line of sight to the PCs, they get killed pretty quickly. OTOH if it is a grinding match in a confined space, things are very different indeed.

Assuming:
Three hobgoblins can get to a character in a turn.
A hobgoblin needs a 20 to hit.
A hobgoblin deals 1d8 damage.

The PC will on the average take 4½ * (3/20) = 0.675 points of damage.

Divide the character's hit points by this number for total for the number of turns, and multiply by the number of hobbos that get killed per turn.

Say the character has 90 hit points, and kills two per turn, that's roughly 267 melee hobgoblins. However, if there's 70 hobgoblin archers with line of sight to the PC, the PC goes down in two turns possibly without causing any damage if he's a melee type.

[Alucard]

But in a real game, I would go with 371 before they get bored and order pizza lol:smallbiggrin:

@:Lord: Remember healing from the cleric...

[Lord Zentei]

But in a real game, I would go with 371 before they get bored and order pizza lol:smallbiggrin:

That's where hobbos with class levels come in, to spice things up, and reduce the number of advesaries to reasonable levels. :smallwink:

EDIT:


@:Lord: Remember healing from the cleric...

Indeed. This was just a "quick and dirty" estimate for a single fighter type, w/o healings, DR and so on...

EDIT 2:

Also, this calculation assumed that the hobbos needed a 20 to hit. Improve this to needing a 19+ to hit, and the number of hobbos needed is halved. Improve it to an 18+ and the number drops to 1/3...

[Poppatomus]

Depends on the setup. If there is a large number of archers with line of sight to the PCs, they get killed pretty quickly. OTOH if it is a grinding match in a confined space, things are very different indeed.

Assuming:
Three hobgoblins can get to a character in a turn.
A hobgoblin needs a 20 to hit.
A hobgoblin desls 1d8 damage.

The PC will on the average take 4½ * (3/20) = 0.675 points of damage.

Divide by the character's hit points total for the number of turns, and multiply by the number of hobbos that get killed per turn.

Say the character has 90 hit points, and kills two per turn, that's roughly 267 melee hobgoblins. However, if there's 70 hobgoblin archers with line of sight to the PC, the PC goes down in two turns possibly without causing any damage if he's a melee type.

+healing, to buy extra time, and potions. and however many V kills from afar. Initiative is also a factor. If Roy goes first, kills with a power attack and gets a cleave in. Noe there's only one attacker. If Roy and Belkar and Hale go first, there are no attackers.

With Durkon healing and fighting, as well as pots, maybe even a fly spell on someone, I'd say at least a 1,000 per person, assuming it was them vs. a mob of undifferentiated Hobgoblins coming in small groups at a time. That's the thing with D&D, once the level difference get's big enough, the opponent may as well not even exist.

[Salk]

Imagen most of them ranging from lvl 1-3. perhaps a few go as high as lvl 5. They go in tight formations, every use of the combat system is accepted and not considered in real life battle. At least a few thousand, as they would not be possible to hit in close combat as to many hobgoblins are in the way. Archers could prove a problem, if not for protection from arrows and the like.

V could call down lightning and fire upon the battlefield, killing tons of enemies while being protected by the rest of the Order. V would probably slay most enemies of the Order by doing this.

Durkon is able to grow giant size and flail around, calling down more thunder.

Roy is able to keep on going killing spree, each hit killing every hobgoblin within his reach with his great cleave.

Belkar, well we have seen what he can do alone, now with support by a cleric and a fighter there is probably no stopping him. :P

Haley just sneak attacks the strong ones and perhaps uses a few traps.

Elan... well he sings and keeps high morale, extra HP, AB and Damage. And possible even a magical song or two too give everyone damage reduction and poke anyone that come to close to haley with his rapier.

Summing this up, they would sure make one tough battle for the hobgoblins.

But this of course only counts if we use the rules to their advantage and not for the hobgoblins. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: bah ninjad

[Alucard]

That's where hobbos with class levels come in, to spice things up, and reduce the number of advesaries to reasonable levels. :smallwink:

True...

advesaries = adversaries (missed a R)

(Sorry spelling nazi)

[Ganurath]

V would go down quicker than would be expected from what we saw, considering he doesn't have any NPCs to hide behind to avoid attacks of opportunity and readied actions against spellcasting. Same goes for Durkon, although he'd last longer due to a more combat oriented caster class, buff spells, and racial bonuses.

Haley depends on people not noticing her and not engaging her in melee to pose a threat. After being surrounded by hobgoblins, she'd be quickly overcome, even if she had Elan by his side. As it has been established, he'd run out of puns in due time.

Belkar has already demonstrated his ability to hold in his against countless goblins, but even he'd run out of healing potions (and scrolls?) eventually. Roy's Great Cleavage would put him up there with Belkar in this Battle Against an Unreasonably High Number of Enemies, but he'd soon face the same problem.

In conclusion, the lineup would be like this:
V takes out a couple dozen with an opening area effect spell before the hobgoblins close the gap, and he becomes overcome by failed Concentration checks due to excessive damage.

Haley drops next as she's out in the open without anyone to flank for her. d6 Hit Dice and light armor are bad things to have fighting against hordes of flunkies. I'll be generous and say she drops a half dozen.

Elan gets off an early illusion to distract his opponents, potentially buying Haley time and a single sneak attack before the statistical odds of some hobs making their saves to disbelieve charge in and prevent further casting. He holds his own with a solid set of critical hits, but eventually falls to being surrounded since he also has d6 hit dice and actually has no armor. I'll give him... high twenties.

Next to fall is Durkon, simply because his lower BAB doesn't give him the killing power to hold off a swarm of hobgoblins. His AC would help, but it's like what O-Chul was talking about with Haley: even if you need a natural twenty to hit, there's 30,000 hobgoblins. That's 1,500 natural twenties. Sure, he can heal, but he's facing the same problem as V in that attacks of opportunity and high concentration checks make the struggle continue to spiral downhill. Toss in an opening Thor's Lightning, and I'll put Durkon in the sixties.

The last two are tough to say who falls first, but I'll say it's Roy who kicks it. Why? His falling scene showed us rather clearly that he had no healing potions to drink. Even if he did, he'd draw attacks of opportunity for it that would probably exceed the damage healed with fresh damage dealt. Still, Great Cleave gives him lots of kills... I'd say he's in the eighties before the hobgoblins finally drop him.

Belkar continues as he was shown outside the castle in the comic, killing and healing in rapid succession until he runs out of potions. He managed to drop about forty before he needed to heal, so we can assume he can get into the nineties at least if he only had enough potion power to fully heal himself once.

Add the numbers up, and I'd estimate the OOTS could take out about 300 hobgoblins, give or take a dozen or two, before Belkar dies last.

[Lord Zentei]

+healing, to buy extra time, and potions. and however many V kills from afar. Initiative is also a factor. If Roy goes first, kills with a power attack and gets a cleave in. Noe there's only one attacker. If Roy and Belkar and Hale go first, there are no attackers.

With Durkon healing and fighting, as well as pots, maybe even a fly spell on someone, I'd say at least a 1,000 per person, assuming it was them vs. a mob of undifferentiated Hobgoblins coming in small groups at a time. That's the thing with D&D, once the level difference get's big enough, the opponent may as well not even exist.

Yeah, that was just an initial estimate for melee type.

As for initiative: you can a 5-foot step and attack on your turn, so even if Roy and Belkar clear the ones in the adjacent hexes, that doesn't mean they won't get hit back. And there are archers, which limits the usefulness of Fly.

The whole question depends on whether the DM in question is doing the typical setup, where NPC monsters are simply arrayed to be killed or whether he optimizes the damage they can cause.

[Kreistor]

The PC's are woefully underequipped. No magic armour, rings of protection, and only Roy has a weapon of any decent quality.

The hobgoblins use Bull Rush, Grapple, Trip, and Overrun to separate the group and use their numbers to maximum effect. Some OotS get AoO's, but Haley and V are very vulnerable to this tactic.

So, here's how the hobgoblins win with few casualties. Move a rank of archers (say 200 of them) up to 1500 feet, outside Fireball range. They Ready actions to shoot at anyone casting spells. V casts Fireball, provoking 200 AoO's which really hit only on a 20. Of 200, 10 will roll 20's and hit, dealing 10D8 damage. V has to roll concentration against DC55, which fizzles the Fireball. V, of course, now needs healing in a major way. With 30000 hobgoblins, you can have another rank of archers ready for the second spell cast, which nails Durkon and leaves V vulnerable. I doubt V would survive two rounds of this: elves have low Con so low HP.

The meleers now move in. It takes them a couple rounds, but they get there. Roy gets some attacks and Cleaves in, but he doesn't really get much more than 5-10 dead at best. One hob moves in to provoke his AoO, and then the others move in to Overrun. Overrun is the great leveller -- Roy's BAB doesn't defend him like Trip would. Down goes Roy, and now the Hob melee has +4 to hit against his proneness.

Haley is messed up. With that many hobs charging (and going around the flanks), she's surrounded and shooting her bow provokees AoO's from them. Additionally, bows have low HP and she doesn't get an AoO with a Ranged Weapon, so, free Sunder attempts. Haley is now unarmed, or at best, using a melee weapon she has no feats for.

Belkar is shown carving through Hobs outside the walls, but that's not really what should happen. Hobs can grapple, and Belkar has a -4 Grapple check. Once Grappled, he loses Dex bonus to AC for all attackers outside the grapple, and so he dies quickly. Belkar is, actually, very easy to hit, since the Giant doesn't equip the PC's to DMG standards.

[kirbsys]

V can chain lightning, the hobbos are only CR 2, Roy can make at least three attacks per round, Belkar can probably do two or three, Durkon can go all giant, V could make Roy all giant like she did to the AC guards, Elan probably has two attacks, Haley could flank, so really it depends on how many they have to take at once. If it were a fifteen foot crevice, the OOTS would own them, on an enourmous field, not so much.

[fangthane]

Here are my thoughts on Best Practises for the fight:

Roy: stays behind 100% cover until the front-line goblins are providing him cover from their archers.
Haley: finds a spot with cover and concealment within 30 feet of Roy.
Elan: stays behind cover until Roy breaks and helps him hold the line, singing for boosts whenever he can (+2HD for Roy, bonus to attack/damage, that kind of thing)
Belkar: same as Elan except without the singing. (and need I mention, bard bonus + two-weapon style = win)
V: First round, cast greater invis on Durkon. Second round, cast fly on self. Third round, cast greater invis on self. Protection from Arrows would be stripped within a round, guaranteed. Invisibility will remain useful longer since most opponents may not even be aware of your presence for some rounds. Fourth round, fire off an area-effect and fly as a move action after the casting. Repeat until round (level-4), planning to hide and re-cast invisibility if possible.
Durkon: First round, accept invisibility, holding action to move out of cover and cast an area-effect (holy smite, firestorm, flame strike, controlweathercontrolweathercontrolweathercontrolw eather, etc). Alternatively, a blade barrier blocking (or creating) a choke point works to slow and direct the charge. Subsequent rounds, more area effects. Holy Aura the round before Invisibility wears off.

Alternatively, rather than invisibility V could cast a Wind Wall or two, eliminating any chance of arrow/bolt hits from the hobgoblins, instead of invisibility spells. Lower level, and just as effective if not moreso (and Evokation so it's a potential bonus spell even if it takes a slot from Fireball). Wind wall prevents bolts and arrow hits entirely, but doesn't prevent spellcasting at all, so V and Durkon (and Elan if they have a wand for him) could lay down some serious area effect over the course of two castings (about 3 minutes), slaughtering thousands of goblins before being overrun.

My estimate on their optimal kill rate is roughly 10-20%, most of it done by Durkon and V. Not bad when you consider that amounts to an 800:1 kill rate at worst.
After the invisibility is gone though, or the wind walls, and the front lines of the goblins can engage, it's only a matter of time before the OotS is either overrun and hogtied for Redcloak, or until Redcloak decides that a handful of losses is worth saving the lives of future melee waves, and orders his archers (let's assume about 8000 of them in the attacking force, after 10-20% attrition) to loose at the Order. 8000/20 is 400 20s (hits) per round, and 20 critical hits per round. That'll put any party of 6 15th-level characters down pretty quick*. So if the party behaves (or rolls) particularly stupidly, it could be as bad as Kreistor says. If they do everything right, they'd cause the goblins about 10% losses and get the heck out of Dodge, and if they don't flee, they might incur as much as 20% before death or capture.

*assume an average of 200 hit points per character, or 1200 for the party, which is very high. And should eliminate quibbling over mitigation like Stoneskin or similar items. The 380 normal hits will do 380*3.5 (1d6)=1330 damage, and the crits will deal 20*10.5 (3d6)=210 damage total. 1330+210 damage means that it's not even that important to single out individual targets; there's plenty of damage to slaughter them all in under 6 seconds. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, it might take as long as 18 seconds to put them all down.

[Morty]

The PC's are woefully underequipped. No magic armour, rings of protection, and only Roy has a weapon of any decent quality.


I'll just comment the bit about equipment.
I wouldn't outright say that PCs aren't equipped with some magic junk items. They aren't shown, but both Roy(here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html)) and Nale(here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html)) imply they do have them.