Three man group

[Triskavanski]

Starting up another new game here in a few weeks, and I'm trying to figure out what to play as I always have trouble with it


We've got someone who's going to be a human rogue, and another person going white mage of an unknown race.

For me, I want to do something that could fill a role, but I want it to be in a more fun and unusual way.

I think we might need a little more healing power honestly, probably something that could take a hit too.

The stats I rolled where okayish. 17, 17, 14, 13, 12, 11.

[GreyBlack]

Don't worry too much about healing power. You can always buy potions to cover that, especially if your buddy is playing a white mage (assuming Arcanist archetype?).

Something that you guys do lack, though, is a commander. Why not run a fighter with bard variant multiclass or a buffer bard/paladin? Paladin 2/bard 18 gives you some excellent healing options, but more importantly buffs your party damage, saves, skill checks, and other fun stuff.

[Psyren]

Seems to me like you need a frontliner. But if you also want to add more healing punch to the table, take a look at the Oradin. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?257365-PF-Oradin-Mini-Guide-Or-How-to-be-a-Healbot-minus-the-bot)

Also, your rogue buddy should be using the Unchained Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained), or at the very least a Ninja.

[Elder_Basilisk]

Pathfinder or 3.x and what kind of optimization level? White mage would seem to indicate some 3rd party sources and human rogue is not usually thought of as high optimization.

Not sure how much healing a "white mage" packs but it looks to me like your group is probably short on front line (rogues usually need a flanking buddy in order to deal damage and aren't very good at controlling space or tanking), offensive magic (traditionally, a white mage would have healing ability but less offensive firepower), and ranged attack ability. That's a little much to make up for with one character but here are a few ideas:

Druid. 3.x or pathfinder. Animal companion to help with tanking and you can wildshape for that too. You also have some offensive spellpower.

Switch-hitting inquisitor. Pathfinder. A couple feats can make you a significant ranged threat without sacrificing your up-front ability.

Switch-hitting ranger. Pathfinder or 3.x. Take feats or archetypes to buff your animal companion to full druid levels.

Switch-hitting paladin or Oradin. Pathfinder only. Supplies ranged attack ability, front line, and healing (self-healing only if you go straight paladin).

Fighter/Wizard/Abjurant Champion/Eldritch Knight. 3.x. (Pathfinder too but without abjurant champion it's not as good). You can be a decent front-liner with the appropriate build and while not as good as a straight-up wizard, you can fill the offensive magic role.

Clericzilla. 3.x. If the "white mage" is short on healing but has offensive magic covered, going clericzilla would cover the healing magic and provide the front line that the party needs.

[Triskavanski]

Yeah the White Mage is the archanist archetype. I think I've also managed to convince them this time to take Unchained rogue. The others in our group tend to be apprehensive about selecting unchained rogue because they fear it is so different from normal rogue.

And its Pathfinder.


A bard could be useful, I'd probably do archaeologist bard as its one of my more favorite archetypes, but I think it might class a bit with the rogue's role.

[Azoth]

Do you play with third party materials? Namely Dreamscarred press.

[GreyBlack]

Yeah the White Mage is the archanist archetype. I think I've also managed to convince them this time to take Unchained rogue. The others in our group tend to be apprehensive about selecting unchained rogue because they fear it is so different from normal rogue.

And its Pathfinder.


A bard could be useful, I'd probably do archaeologist bard as its one of my more favorite archetypes, but I think it might class a bit with the rogue's role.

What alignments are the others? If they are good to neutral, you may want the 2 dip in Paladin for saves and some other fun stuff. You still get your maximum spell level in Bard, so getting your charisma to saves is a good thing.

But, if you're concerned about overlapping, the archaeologist archetype from bard has significant overlap with rogue, so you may want to consider a different archetype. Perhaps archivist?

EDIT: Or, alternatively, go with Skald. Because who doesn't love death metal?

[Triskavanski]

Another idea, is the possibility of going ratfolk for the the Scurrying Swarmer feat, that would make it so if I'm positioned to be in an ally's square, we'd be flanking, and adjacent to each other. And I can use my Teamwork feats even if they don't have it.

Possibly go fighter and pick up squire who'd follow similar path as me. I dunno.


EDIT:

I've played a Skald Centaur before, he was pretty fun, but I don't know if I could do it again with our group.


Edit 2:

What about an Eldritch Archer? Would that work with Kensai?

[Feint's End]

Is psionics on the table?

[Triskavanski]

Possibly. Its not shot down at least, as long as its 1st party.

[Psyren]

Possibly. Its not shot down at least, as long as its 1st party.

It's not 1st-party unfortunately - it's from Dreamscarred Press. It's high-quality but still 3rd-party if that's a problem.

[Triskavanski]

Yeah, I'm not too keen myself on third party, especially with a GM who is going to be pretty new at the whole thing.

[Kurald Galain]

What about an Eldritch Archer? Would that work with Kensai?

Technically yes, although since focuses on range and the other on melee, it's better to pick one and specialize.

Although both of these can take a hit, since your defenses are mostly based on your spells, having diminshed spellcasting is not so nice for the kensai. But if you want a good gish with solid spellcasting and solid melee abilities, then Magus is a good choice. If you also want healing, then you could go for the Hexcrafter archetype and take the healing hex.

[Triskavanski]

So the Kensai specifically calls out that it has to be a melee weapon?

[Kurald Galain]

So the Kensai specifically calls out that it has to be a melee weapon?

Yes, its chosen weapon must be a melee weapon, and most of its class features only work with this chosen weapon.

That said, what is it that appeals to you from these two archetypes in particular? Also, you haven't specified level yet; that makes a big difference.

[CharonsHelper]

Another vote for bard. If you go melee bard - you'll epitomize the jack of all trades to fill in all of the gaps of a 3 person group. (utility casting/tanky/damage/face)

With Fencing Grace - halfing bards can get pretty decent damage at level 5 when they grab the feat. (weak damage before that sadly) Humans can get Fencing Grace by 3 - though halfling stats & small size are nice. (plus... halflings!)

With Armor Expert & eventually grabbing a mithril breastplate and darkwood shield - you can get very solid AC to be pretty survivable. Small size helps too. Heck - at level 1 you could have an AC of 21 without breaking a sweat. (chain shirt/heavy shield/+4 dex/+1 size)

Focus upon support spells and your spell DCs don't matter so that you don't even need a CHA higher than 14.

[Triskavanski]

Just got word from our Arcanist, that he's going to drop white mage archetype in favor of the Oculist archetype, allowing him to easily summon things to get into melee with the rogue.

As for what appeals for me with the two archtypes is being able to use ranged spell strike for reals, and being able to really wear light or no armor.

[Florian]

Well, then it is time for an Oradin, I'd say.

[Kurald Galain]

As for what appeals for me with the two archtypes is being able to use ranged spell strike for reals, and being able to really wear light or no armor.

Well, there's no real substitutes for ranged spellstrike :smallbiggrin:

That said, every Magus can wear light armor just fine (a dex-based Magus sticks with light armor because of its dex bonus, and a str-based Magus may want to wear light armor for its superior movement rate). Same as with bards, really.

[CharonsHelper]

That said, every Magus can wear light armor just fine

Well... except for Kensai. But - past the first level or two he'll have better AC anyway. (With a pearl of power bought for the Arcanist he'd have Mage Armor by 2-3, with the Int bonus points added on as gravy.)

[Kurald Galain]

Well... except for Kensai. But - past the first level or two he'll have better AC anyway.

The question wasn't "which archetype has the best defenses" (hint, that's not the kensai), but "which archetypes can work with light or no armor" (which is all of them).

[stanprollyright]

Melee Druid

[Triskavanski]

Would a throwing weapon qualify for both the Eldritch Archer and Kensai?

[Florian]

Would a throwing weapon qualify for both the Eldritch Archer and Kensai?

Not for the Kensai, no.

[Triskavanski]

So like the Starknife doesn't work?

I would have figured it would have been the otherway around if it wasn't allowed. That throwing weapons like Starknife doesn't count as a ranged weapon

[hector212121]

Are Synthesists allowed? Even if they're not, roll Summoner. Lesser Evolution Surge means you can give your eidolon a instant +8 to ANY TWO SKILLS, and if you give them Stealth and Perception as Skilled right off they can be your Rogue's 'spirit animal'.

also see if your GM will allow you to play a vampire with your white mage Restoring people who you hopefully buy blood from but may need to claim it by force and then restore them

[Triskavanski]

Sythisists might be allowed. But we do totally need to make sure we get someone who can do some healing. I've tried games where we didn't have anyone who could do any magical healing and it was pretty bad.

Though in all honesty even something that could really just use treat deadly wounds wouldn't be too bad.

[Psyren]

So like the Starknife doesn't work?

I would have figured it would have been the otherway around if it wasn't allowed. That throwing weapons like Starknife doesn't count as a ranged weapon

You can use a thrown weapon as a Kensai but Canny Defense specifies a melee weapon and you normally can't make AoOs with a thrown weapon either. So it's an odd combination is all.

[Triskavanski]

I don't see that. Granted right now I'm only able to see 2 out of 3 online resources.

Nethys and d20pfprd don't make mention that the canny defense is a melee only. Rather it says it can be a weapon of any type.

Isn't a starknife both a melee and thrown weapon?

[Psyren]

I missed the "except any type" but it still doesn't help you with ranged AoOs. They're not impossible to make but I still consider them subpar. SS/ISS have very short range. Kensai is built around AoOs so to me it feels like a waste.

[Kurald Galain]

Isn't a starknife both a melee and thrown weapon?

Yes, but not a ranged weapon; so it doesn't work with Eldritch Archer. The weapons table defines "ranged" weapons as anything not usable in melee.

[Triskavanski]

So starknife couldn't even qualify for Ricochet Toss.

[Psyren]

Yes, but not a ranged weapon; so it doesn't work with Eldritch Archer. The weapons table defines "ranged" weapons as anything not usable in melee.

I don't think you're parsing that sentence right. The rule says:

"Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee."

That last part "that are not effective in melee" can be interpreted to modify either both (thrown weapons and projectile weapons) or just the latter (projectile weapons.) I think it's the latter, because pretty most thrown weapons can also be used in melee, and are clearly intended to be treated as both, as is any non-2H melee weapon with a range increment.

Interpreting it the other way, means for instance that taking Sling Flail makes a Sling stop being a ranged weapon at all because it is now effective in melee.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't think you're parsing that sentence right. The rule says:
The rule can be read in two ways, but the big table of weapons makes a clear division between "melee" weapons and "ranged" weapons.

Case in point,

So starknife couldn't even qualify for Ricochet Toss.
Ricochet Toss explicitly states that it works with a "thrown" weapon, not a "ranged" weapon. So you can use it with a starknife but not a longbow, as would be expected.

[Psyren]

The rule can be read in two ways, but the big table of weapons makes a clear division between "melee" weapons and "ranged" weapons.

Case in point,

Ricochet Toss explicitly states that it works with a "thrown" weapon, not a "ranged" weapon. So you can use it with a starknife but not a longbow, as would be expected.

That 'case in point' is unrelated to your conclusion though. Yes, Startoss works with Starknives and not bows because it specifies Thrown, but that has nothing to do with thrown weapons not being ranged weapons.

For instance, consider this sentence:

"Weapons are grouped into several interlocking sets of categories. These categories pertain to what training is needed to become proficient in a weapon's use (simple, martial, or exotic), the weapon's usefulness either in close combat (melee) or at a distance (ranged, which includes both thrown and projectile weapons), its relative encumbrance (light, one-handed, or two-handed), and its size (Small, Medium, or Large)."

which explicitly states that thrown weapons are ranged weapons. And also this one:

"It is possible to throw a weapon that isn't designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn't have a numeric entry in the Range column on Table: Weapons), and a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll."

Which states that melee weapons that don't have a range entry aren't designed to be thrown, from which we can derive that the ones that do, are.

[Triskavanski]

Ricochet Toss explicitly states that it works with a "thrown" weapon, not a "ranged" weapon. So you can use it with a starknife but not a longbow, as would be expected.

However the requirement for Ricochet toss is


Prerequisites: Quick Draw, base attack bonus +6, weapon
training class feature with a ranged weapon.

So an Appropriate thrown weapon, could be read to not mean any thrown weapon, but thrown weapons that are also ranged weapons. But that gets into spitting hairs.

Well call me Sweeney Todd, cause I found some more hairs to split. Point Blank shot calls out Ranged weapons. Not ranged attacks. As does Rapid shot.

[Florian]

It is not so hard to see a dual-purpose weapon as either melee or ranged. If used for either, it is not counted towards the other.

[Psyren]

However the requirement for Ricochet toss is



So an Appropriate thrown weapon, could be read to not mean any thrown weapon, but thrown weapons that are also ranged weapons. But that gets into spitting hairs.

Well call me Sweeney Todd, cause I found some more hairs to split. Point Blank shot calls out Ranged weapons. Not ranged attacks. As does Rapid shot.

I define "ranged weapon" as follows:

1) Any weapon on a "ranged weapons" table (Kurald's definition)
2) Any melee weapon with a "range" entry (i.e. a thrown weapon, which are considered ranged weapons per my second citation, and where we disagree.)

Starknives fall into that second bucket, and I can't imagine ranged weapon feats and abilities not working with them.

For intent, I point to NPC Codex, which has numerous entries where "dagger" is listed under "ranged" (e.g. the Cutpurse and Ruffian.) The Master Entertainer in fact uses multiple ranged weapon feats with her daggers (melee weapons), including Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot.

[Florian]

I fail to see the problem. A melee weapon that has a ranged listed, for example dagger, starknife, can be used either as melee or ranged. Generall feats or class features (Weapon Focus, Weapon Training) work for both modes, but that doesn't make these modes equal the other.
A, say, Kensai can use a multi-purpose weapon just fine, but can only use the whole range of magus class features when using them in melee (unless the right archetype is there, then it is only in range)

[Captain Morgan]

If you want as many Cure spells as possible, I'd suggest the Oracle of Battle. Tons of spell slots, and a respectable front line combatant. Also the makings of a good party face. You can also take a group buff or two for when your Arcanist had already gotten some summons out. The downside is you won't have a ton of spells known which hurts for condition removal, but scrolls and Mnemonic Vestments can help with that.

On the other hand, if all you are worried about is HP damage you could take any class that gets the Cure X Wounds line on their spell list and use wands.

Druid and Summoner are both powerful classes to add here, as well. I don't know that I would go Bard, as even with summons your 3 PCs aren't especially well suited to leverage Inspire Courage and other buffs. Just not enough martial prowess. That said, if you are allowed to use the Leadership feat a Bard cohort would make a solid addition next to one of the above classes. I would avoid the Skald here, because there is a good chance your Rogue will be Dex based and therefore not interested in Raging Song.

[Triskavanski]

Our mage might just be going something totally different now, he's not too sure.

I think I might be honing in on something like the Archer Hexcrafter Magus (Since there is a big hole of messycanics when it comes to thrown weapons. Sides that, Archery is faster)

Or An Internal Vivisection Toxicant Alchemist Ratfolk. The dirty tactics book had a feat where I can use any ally my size or one bigger for the purposes of getting the benifts of my swarming racial trait, and they count as having all my teamwork feats too..

So I'd be adjacent to the ally and flanking the enemy at the same time.

[Florian]

You sure don't want an hexcrafter archer. Thatbis a waste of collosal proportions.

[Triskavanski]

Not choosing it is a waste? Or choosing it is?

[Florian]

Not choosing it is a waste? Or choosing it is?

Hexes are great, but you have to chose carefully and watch ypur economy of actions. The best combinations will eat up both, move and standard actions and Ou have to keep the, up this way.
Archery is mostly focused on the full attack, so that doesn't really work out. It is one or the other.

[Triskavanski]

Isn't that the same with most any physical combatant?

beyond that It looks like I can't cast curses through the bow typically.

[Florian]

Isn't that the same with most any physical combatant?

beyond that It looks like I can't cast curses through the bow typically.

You can't really compare that. The best hexes are pure buff/debuff types that are even a bit overpowered for their level and typically need Cackle to persist.
Most of the time, starting a hex, even if you can channel it thru a weapon and then not sustaining it, is simply a waste.

[Kurald Galain]

I think I might be honing in on something like the Archer Hexcrafter Magus (Since there is a big hole of messycanics when it comes to thrown weapons. Sides that, Archery is faster)

That's a good choice. Hexcrafter is an amazing archetype and will make you a nasty debuffer, or open up the healing hex, or give you a good flight speed at need, or all of the above.

[Triskavanski]

You can't really compare that. The best hexes are pure buff/debuff types that are even a bit overpowered for their level and typically need Cackle to persist.
Most of the time, starting a hex, even if you can channel it thru a weapon and then not sustaining it, is simply a waste.

Curses, not hexes.

One of the draws I was going to have with it was using a bow to shoot bad people with curses like, Bestow curse. However ranged Spell strike doesn't change the range of the spell (To make it longer) but does if it makes it shorter

[Kurald Galain]

One of the draws I was going to have with it was using a bow to shoot bad people with curses like, Bestow curse. However ranged Spell strike doesn't change the range of the spell (To make it longer) but does if it makes it shorter

There's an arcana that lets you use touch spells at range.

[Triskavanski]

I think I'm going I'm going Edritch Archer Hexcrafter

Tiefling

Since the subrace requires a feat from the last I know, I'll go base tiefling.

Replace Skilled with - Fiendish Sprinter
Replace Spell Like ability with - Maw?
Replace Fiendish Resistance with - Nothing
Replace Fiendish Sorcerery with - Prehensile Tail

Traits
Race - Born Damned, Ever Wary, Friendless

Feats - Some basic Archery feats to make it functional. (Point Blank/Precise shot), Fiendish Sight x2 to see through all darkness, grasping tail.

Hexes - Healing Hex, Flight, Swamps grasp look like good choices for early hexes, and then follow up with ones like Animal skin for later. Cause its easier to sneak into places if I can shapeshift into a cat or something.