Still looking for a race and class that takes my fancy, now with more restrictions

[Albions_Angel]

Me again. At some point the playground is going to get fed up of me, but until then...

So. My group. I dont even know where they fall on optimization any more. We arnt top tier, but we dont really role play. Most sessions are "Start, walk somewhere, get attacked twice on the way, have a couple of battles there, get attacked once on the way back, end". Very little in the way of face based stuff.

I cant find a class I want to play, or a race, or anything. I just feel... empty when I think about D&D. Just finished DMing and I am drained. Tried to include some new books for my group, got yelled at.

Well, here is what has happened so far.


Got shouted at as a DM for including ToB. Turned out not to be overpowered like they said, but they didnt like it and now its gone again.
Wanted to play a level adjusted creature or race. Got told no as they are all broken.
Wanted to play a Binder. Looked up Tome of Magic. didnt see anything OP. Got told no. Too open to exploitation.
Wanted to play a "Hellforged", a Warforged (MMIII) Glaivelock. Glaivelock is ok but apparently Warforged is not because it is a) too open to exploitation (I actually cant see any way for it to be) and b) will also make my character too weak (which surely negates point a?)
Wanted to take Baleful Utterance because I can think of a ton of uses for it. Was told it was useless. Argued. They looked it up. They told me it was too powerful. Argued. They descided I can take it but it wont shatter locks, doors, chests, etc, but will make them impossible to open, and I can shatter weapons and armour but only if I dont detect magic on it first because they want an excuse to shout at me if I deny the party magic loot.
Watched the group tare itself apart over one character raising undead. As in tare itself apart in real life. Actual arguments that left the room silent as the grave. So raising undead is more or less out for everyone.
Characters must be (on paper) non-evil, and must be played (RP) good. This is unwritten, and you are welcome to try, but it wont get you very far.


This is a group I have been happily playing in for 3 years. They seem to like me. I have had fun with them. But now I want to try new things, I keep getting shut down. Its the same 4 people, the older members of the group, our regular set of DMs. Im sure they have their reasons, but ... sigh.

So. I am once more out of ideas.

My books are NON NEGOTIABLE. That has been made very clear. Also, just because MM is in there doesnt mean I can play something from it.

Books are:


PHB
PHBII
DMG
MMI-V
Complete (all except Psionics)
DMGII
Races of Stone/Destiny/the Wild/the Dragon
Dragon Magic
UA (variant races and classes ONLY)
Sandstorm
Frostburn
Stormwrack



I dont like small races (which hinders me some what, but there you go), and I dont like prepared casters, wizards especially. I dont know why, but I just dont. I want to RP, not play an Turn Based Strategy Game I guess. Oh, I should probably mention that I have never seen our group play with divination... or necromancy... or really anything other than evocation and abjuration. So I doubt I will get much in the way of traction even if I did play a wizard, because id be relegated to "I cast magic missile. I cast fireball. I use a wand of CMW. I drop my spell book out of sheer boredom. I walk into the clutches of the monster. Ok, I DONT do that because the DM says not to."

I just want to play something fun and different. Something a little quirky. It doesnt have to be fantastic. It just has to not make me want to leave my group, which I am doing anyway when I leave uni this year, but Id like to see the year out with them.

[The Viscount]

Well, the PHBII does have the beguiler, which has spontaneous casting from a set list. It's largely illusion and enchantment focused. It can be very fun, but if your group really does only go for evocation and abjuration you may find yourself without good actions if your party is set to full hack and slash.

Warmage from Complete Arcane is up that alley, but can be a bit dull if you want to do more than kill things. It has the same style as beguiler, spontaneous from a set list.

If you have Dragon Magic, your group might be more receptive to Dragonfire adept than they are to warlock. It gets less invocations, and has a breath weapon instead of eldritch blast, so you don't have to hit targets, just pump up the Con-based save. Dragonborn Water Orc is the classic pump up the Con choice, and picking wings will save you on invocations.

For races, I'm a fan of the Raptoran from Races of the Wild. It gets flight, but gradually, so it's not flying before anybody else would be.

I can't promise your group will accept, since it seems like they fear what they don't understand.

[Albions_Angel]

Hmm, Raptoran. Now that is interesting.

They are fine with warlock, just not warforged. And I think they would try to punish me for doing anything but a utility blastlock. I mentioned dragonfire adept the other day. I did not get a positive response. But it wasnt a no. Saw a beguiler once before in our group. He ended up ignoring his spells and poking things to death with a spear because we got vermin and mindless creatures/high hitdice humanoids the entire campaign.

My worry is that half the things people will suggest will be very dull at low levels. I managed to convince them to start at 7, rather than 1 like we always do, so its likely we will get to level 13. Not likely to get beyond that. And the other half will be too "broken" for my party. It really hurts to want to play so much, and just be told no.

[ahenobarbi]

How about a Bard? If you focus on buffing you're unlikely to get accused of beeing too strong while being actually useful. And charisma focus tends to give RP oppotunities.

[nedz]

I think that this is a play-style issue.

They want to play Hack-n-Slash, you want more role-play.

You want to play something new, they are afraid of the new.

I can't think of any options which breach this divide.

Maybe you could play a thematic Sorcerer or a Spontaneous Cleric ?
But, I guess, you'd be stuck with Hack-n-Slash.

I'd normally suggest a Beguiler, or maybe a Beguiler-Rogue, for your style of player:
Rogue 1 / Beguiler 4 / Unseen Seer 10 perhaps ?
At least you get to do the skill-monkey stuff, or maybe face too ?

[paranoidbox]

I've always been interested in playing a Stormlord (CDiv). I assume prestige classes are on the table. It seems like a hoot, especially if you combine it with the Gloves of Endless Javelins. Probably start off as a Druid, maybe as a Deadly Hunter Druid variant (UA) just because they're bad-ass. Race-wise, maybe choose Half-Orc and take the Half-Orc Substitution levels (RoD). Barring flaws, you'll get into Stormlord at level 7.
Two ticks in the con column: You'll probably have to be CN to be able to have Talos (or whatever equivalent you have) as a patron and be non-evil and yes, it's a prepared caster. My solution to this would be to take some summoner feats and just go to town with SNA's while you chuck javelins at everyone. Fwoosh fwoosh. (Alternatively, you could drop the Druid part and qualify for Stormlord with Favored Soul.)

[Snowbluff]

Arcane Hierophant is races of the wild.

Beguiler2/Druid4/Arcane Heirophant

Use Versatile Spellcaster to meet the Arcane Requirement. Use Frostburn for Druid Spells.

[nedz]

I've always been interested in playing a Stormlord (CDiv). I assume prestige classes are on the table. It seems like a hoot, especially if you combine it with the Gloves of Endless Javelins. Probably start off as a Druid, maybe as a Deadly Hunter Druid variant (UA) just because they're bad-ass. Race-wise, maybe choose Half-Orc and take the Half-Orc Substitution levels (RoD). Barring flaws, you'll get into Stormlord at level 7.
Two ticks in the con column: You'll probably have to be CN to be able to have Talos (or whatever equivalent you have) as a patron and be non-evil and yes, it's a prepared caster. My solution to this would be to take some summoner feats and just go to town with SNA's while you chuck javelins at everyone. Fwoosh fwoosh. (Alternatively, you could drop the Druid part and qualify for Stormlord with Favored Soul.)

It doesn't have to be a prepared caster. Options include

Favoured Soul - saves you a feat
Spontaneous Cleric (UA variant class)
Spontaneous Druid (UA variant class)
Spirit Shaman (Semi-spontaneous)
Mystic Ranger (Probably not allowed for spurious reasons)


Also your alignment only has to be within one step of CN.

[Snowbluff]

It doesn't have to be a prepared caster. Options include

Spontaneous Cleric (UA variant class)
Spontaneous Druid (UA variant class)



These two are pretty good, since Druids get SNA and Clerics get their Domain spells automatically.

[paranoidbox]

It doesn't have to be a prepared caster. Options include

Favoured Soul - saves you a feat
Spontaneous Cleric (UA variant class)
Spontaneous Druid (UA variant class)
Spirit Shaman (Semi-spontaneous)
Mystic Ranger (Probably not allowed for spurious reasons)


Also your alignment only has to be within one step of CN.

I forgot about the Spontaneous Druid Variant! That should work. (I didn't count the Spontaneous Cleric because that's what a Favored Soul is to me ;-p heh.)

I think/thought Talos was CE, which is why I figured the only choice would be to be CN. I could be wrong about his alignment, I largely dismiss the gods whenever I play a character.

[Crake]

You could always find/establish a new group. I'm not saying to quit your other group, but just have a second group. Different groups like different things, and it can be a nice change of pace to play with some new people. I recently did this by running an online game in roll20 with people I'd never met before, and it's actually been heaps of fun and has refreshed my enjoyment of the game and is actually much more consistent than my table game, because I had the option to filter out the people who seemed flaky. We've played consistently for the last 16 weeks, only missing a single week when everyone, simultaneously, seemed to have some kind of issue that week, so it wasn't so bad. Compared to my current table game, which started at roughly the same time, we've played that one about 3 times in the same period of time, with our next game planned to be two sundays down the line... so not very promising.

Consistency isn't your issue though, so I'm just rambling on that point, but yeah, definitely try and find some new people to play with, it'll be a breath of fresh air, something to allow your creative juices to flow, and let you just spend your time with your main group just mellowing out and spending time with friends. That said, by all means let your other group members have the option to join you, but be VERY clear as to your reasons for doing this, and let them know clearly that you will be trying out all the things that they seem to dislike, and that, if they don't want to try out new stuff, then to not bother coming along.

[torrasque666]

I think/thought Talos was CE, which is why I figured the only choice would be to be CN. I could be wrong about his alignment, I largely dismiss the gods whenever I play a character.
He is. So yeah, the only available alignment is CN.

[nedz]

Stormlord does contain notes about adapting the class to other pantheons or deities. IDK what the deities are in this setting, but it should be an easy adaption to make.


I forgot about the Spontaneous Druid Variant! That should work. (I didn't count the Spontaneous Cleric because that's what a Favored Soul is to me(

Spontaneous Cleric > Favored Soul because domains. FS does give you a feat which is a pre-req for Stormlord though.

[Troacctid]

Personally, I much prefer Stormcaster over Stormlord. The abilities it gives you are way cooler, and it makes you a proper storm mage rather than a javelin specialist.

[gawwy]

Is this for the same game as here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?465420-Help-picking-an-interesting-class-with-some-restrictions)?

If so bard. all bard all day.

consider storm singer prc so you can fire lightning bolts via singing.

[Albions_Angel]

No, everyone wanted new characters. Someone has already taken bard.

Spirit Shaman sounds good. This is a world I have played in before and its FULL of spirits. It has a whole new knowledge for Fey and Incorporeal Undead as Knowledge Spirits. Luck is based on Spirit Favour. And there are Spirit Fetishes that allow you to double up on augment slots based on racial bonuses.

Besides, I could play a native american shaman type character. Nice and thematic. Now just for a race... and everything else...

[nedz]

Elf - for the +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
Maximise Spot and Listen, which are class skills, you will have high Wis and SS 1 gives you Alertness.
Nothing will get past you.

Human is good, but you are not short of feats.

Max out Survival and enter Seeker of the Misty Isle for the Travel domain.

[Dread_Head]

No, everyone wanted new characters. Someone has already taken bard.

Spirit Shaman sounds good. This is a world I have played in before and its FULL of spirits. It has a whole new knowledge for Fey and Incorporeal Undead as Knowledge Spirits. Luck is based on Spirit Favour. And there are Spirit Fetishes that allow you to double up on augment slots based on racial bonuses.

Besides, I could play a native american shaman type character. Nice and thematic. Now just for a race... and everything else...

I'd suggest either Raptoran or Killoren if you want something out of the ordinary but not too likely to get shot down. Killoren is good if you want to go either melee or archery and Raptoran if you want to focus on casting or archery.

For a melee Killoren wield a quarterstaff and take Power Attack, Divine Might (get Turn Undead from a dip) and Killoren Destroyer (Daze enemies). Spells to focus on are Shillelagh, (Greater) Mighty Wallop (from a friendly wizard), Brambles, Spikes and Entangling Staff. Buff for a round or two and then go to town with your tree sized, spike and vine covered staff. Use your other spell slots for utility and maybe some BFC.

For a ranged Killoren take Charming the Arrow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) and again Divine Might and Killoren Destroyer plus whatever archery feats you can fit in. You end up pretty Cha SAd and can pull off some surprising things for an archer. Again choose utility and BFC spells but you should probably begin with a BFC spell or summon to slow enemies down before you start shooting.

For a Raptoran you should focus on BFC and/or summoning spells. Use your flight to stay away from combat and make things as difficult as possible for enemies. Spells to look into are: Boreal Wind, Vortex of Teeth, Entangle, Blinding Spittle, Kelpstrand, Mass Snakes Swiftness, Wall of Thorns, Impeding Stones, Sleet Storm, Haboob, Arctic Haze, Wind Wall and Summon Monster X.

[torrasque666]

For a ranged Killoren take Charming the Arrow (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030815a) and again Divine Might and Killoren Destroyer plus whatever archery feats you can fit in. You end up pretty Cha SAd and can pull off some surprising things for an archer. Again choose utility and BFC spells but you should probably begin with a BFC spell or summon to slow enemies down before you start shooting.
They panic at new things. I think Web articles are gonna suffer the same fate.

[Dread_Head]

They panic at new things. I think Web articles are gonna suffer the same fate.

Still works without that feat, you just can't be wholly Cha SAD.

[Grod_The_Giant]

One idea I've toyed with is a Duskblade archer. Full BAB and all knowledge skills makes Knowledge Devotion a potent tool, and it's not hard to expand their list with things like Sandshaper and Arcane Discipline. You wind up with solid-if-mundane shots, a hefty switch-hitter melee attack, and a decent pile of buffs that, unlike a Ranger, you actually have the slots to use.

[nedz]

One idea I've toyed with is a Duskblade archer. Full BAB and all knowledge skills makes Knowledge Devotion a potent tool, and it's not hard to expand their list with things like Sandshaper and Arcane Discipline. You wind up with solid-if-mundane shots, a hefty switch-hitter melee attack, and a decent pile of buffs that, unlike a Ranger, you actually have the slots to use.

This might work with a 2 level Arcane Archer dip?

Do Duskblades have enough AoE spells though ?

[Grod_The_Giant]

This might work with a 2 level Arcane Archer dip?

Do Duskblades have enough AoE spells though ?
They have a few, but I don't think it's really worth the levels.

[Dread_Head]

Alternate suggestion, go for a Beguiler into Sandshaper (Sandstorm). You get a decent expansion to your (already decent list) adding some much needed BFC and summons along with wilderness utility. You'll have the tools to handle pretty much any job and it's a fun build to play. Can be really thematic if you play a Desert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertRaces) race and run with a mirage theme.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You have Frostburn on your list, along with MM3, RoS, CV, PH2, etc. You also have CD and CV without SC, which means quite a few extremely powerful spells are un-nerfed (Spikes, Quill Blast, Slime Wave, etc.), and one of your most useful Druid spells is still available as it appears in SC (Lesser Rod of Extended Creeping Cold). The core Druid list is good enough on its own to justify this class, it doesn't need SC to dominate.

Cast (Lesser Rod of Extended) Snowsight on yourself and your companion every day (1st level Pearl of Power makes it take only one slot), and keep (Lesser Rod of Extended) Obscuring Snow constantly active. If your other party members want Snowsight cast on them, they can each pony up 2,000 gp for a 1st level Pearl of Power and 1/3 the cost of a Lesser Rod of Extend. Obscuring Snow is on the Sorcerer/Wizard and Cleric lists as well, so any of those characters can also keep that active when traveling. This enables your party to automatically win at non-RP combat encounters.

Take the feat Natural Bond (CV) and get a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) as your animal companion. Natural Bond will negate the 'level -3' drawback for having a stronger companion, and that thing will be the most powerful melee combatant in the party until you catch up with Wild Shape and buffs. Be sure to get Natural Spell at 6th, and pick whatever you want for the rest of your feats (I'd go Whisper Gnome in RoS and take Extra Silence at 1st).

Between Sleet Storm, Wall of Thorns cast on top of opponents, and Call Avalanche in Frostburn, you'll be extremely effective at crowd controlling multiple opponents at once. The Snowsight/Obscuring Snow combo alone is enough to make combat no longer fun, since opponents will be at such a disadvantage from the start. Your animal companion and your ability to wild shape into one of the same means you'll be dealing enough damage in melee to solo every encounter, and you can stay Wild Shaped at all times since you won't need to talk or RP.

[gawwy]

spirit shaman looks cool but be prepared for your dm to see a weird spontaneous/prepared caster hybrid and be scared of the new thing and go "op nerf ban wtf shout". as seems to be his want.

Also the above druid obscuring snow **** would get stomped on by a decent dm when he sends you underground to fight things with blind/tremor/mind sense or scent. How ever your DM will ban it cause it sounds like hes bad. A frost druid could actually be fun tho.

the beguiler/ sand shaper sounds awesome and a nice twist on the roguish beguiler to be a more tribalism beguiler. Also leads into the best reason to carry pocket sand ever.

[xyianth]

One idea I've toyed with is a Duskblade archer. Full BAB and all knowledge skills makes Knowledge Devotion a potent tool, and it's not hard to expand their list with things like Sandshaper and Arcane Discipline. You wind up with solid-if-mundane shots, a hefty switch-hitter melee attack, and a decent pile of buffs that, unlike a Ranger, you actually have the slots to use.

Carnivore once presented a duskblade archer build that was extremely easy to play, surprisingly effective, and well done: link (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.msg69667#msg69667)


spirit shaman looks cool but be prepared for your dm to see a weird spontaneous/prepared caster hybrid and be scared of the new thing and go "op nerf ban wtf shout". as seems to be his want.

You might be able to negotiate to just play it as a spontaneous caster by swapping the retrieve spell mechanics for simply learning spells from the druid list. That should remove any concerns, though it is a slight nerf to the class. Also, a great spirit shaman build is spirit shaman 11/holt warden 2. (holt warden +7 if game continues beyond ECL 13)

With the books you have available, you could also build a supermount build pretty easily. (combine druid, beastmaster, paladin, and the devoted tracker feat; the best supermounts are halflings that use wild plains outrider though) Wildshaping ranger into master of many forms might also be a good option: be a monster character without actually being one.

Finally, the following build would be very effective at all levels and gets its true capstone at ECL 13:

race: illumian
build: beguiler 3/rainbow servant 10
feats: versatile spellcaster[1], improved sigil(krau)[3], <any>[6, 9, 12]

Depending on if your table treats rainbow servant as 10/10 casting(text trumps table) or 6/10 casting(except in this case because ?) you either end up with full spontaneous casting of all beguiler and cleric spells of up to 5th level(6/10 ruling) or 7th level(10/10 ruling). Plus, illumians are cool.

And if beguiler isn't effective at your table for some reason, you can swap it for warmage without issue.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Carnivore once presented a duskblade archer build that was extremely easy to play, surprisingly effective, and well done: [URL="http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.msg69667#msg69667"]link[/URL
Meh, the last 8 levels of Arcane Archer aren't doing anything useful. They can be entirely replaced with one casting of Greater Magic Weapon. (Which you could cast many, many times if you didn't bother taking Arcane Archer). I'd go, oh... Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 4/(Prestige)Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion +1/Eldrich Knight +7? Wind up with +18 BAB and 8th level spells, with free access to high-level sorcerer/wizard spells for all your channeling needs.