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Xuincherguixe
2007-06-08, 02:42 AM
I'm in the planning stages of what will end up being a fairly far lengthy series of gaming sessions. What I'll most likely end up doing is using Instant Messengers at the least, and custom clients at the most because frankly, this is going to be one complicated game! Well, that and I need more excuses to do programming.

The players themselves will all be from mostly non standard races. The exception being Half Orcs, and Drow (depending on if you consider those as standard races or not). Confirmed characters so far are a Jerk Half Orc, a Cannibal Chef Gnoll, and a horrific Succubus.

The setting as is places the humans and their gods at the center of a powerful civilization. They just suddenly appeared one day and just started conquering and making cities. Their belief systems make absolutely no sense with good and evil being defined completely arbitrarily and subject to change without warning. 'Evil' tends to be anything that involves failure to obey, or the enemy in general.

The gods claim to have created everything despite the fact that clearly the other races have existed longer, and that they are perfect and all knowing despite clear examples of the contrary.

The origin story that is told, is that the sun god made the moon, and ten other planets. And from all of this the earth and all its inhabitants were made. With the promise of that all of this was for humanity, and it is humanities duty to claim it. And that this is all part of their master plan.

As for the existence of evil, it is said that at one point the moon disobeyed the sun, and that this created the six demon lords who sow evil in the world.

The human faith system is built fundamentally on contradictions, but they hold a frightening amount of power. They take organization and specialization to great levels. Humanity feels that it is their right and destiny to control the world and everything in it that the gods claim to have made, for them.

It is not just humans that compose the make up of their cities, all the traditional player races are here, but they are treated as second class citizens. Those of 'monster' races are used primarily as slave labor. That the have been 'allowed' to serve in the grand plan of the humans and their gods is to be considered a privilege. If this population feels otherwise, they certainly do not express these thoughts.


Humanity does not control the world though. While most of the great monster races have been all but broken, Orcs are by in large the masters of the wilds. Most of the other races have been absorbed into the various great tribes for their survival. There are still a few tribes that continue to exist on their own.

The Orcs, and others by in large have a religion based on nature spirits. They do not so much worship them as to make deals. There is very little consistency between the various spirits. Many such spirits are liars who will take whatever they can get. Few are especially malicious or specifically seek to destroy. Still, most spirits are treated with a mix of fear and respect.

There are some people who can travel to the world in which the spirits reside in order to communicate with them, these are the Shamans. While sometimes they are respected for their insight and wisdom, frequently they become feared and hated. Those Shamans that are not killed by the peers, or angry spirits can become powerful users of magic. Most of them are seen as insane, but this may have more to do with that they interact with a world so different from that of their peers.

The individual groups of Orcs have a fair amount of diversity, with various levels of technology. Metal tools may be fairly common in some, and virtually unheard of in others. Though they are almost all nomadic or semi nomadic, some tribes have formed permanent settlements with agriculture. These also tend to become areas of trade as well. Being popular targets for raiders, their also is a tendency to station guards. Those settlements that have been near human territory have so far never lasted long against any major assaults.


For those who desire power, many turn to Demons. There are many things that these beings can offer, but many have no desire what so ever to live up to their end of the bargain. Most often is the case that they will follow the letter of their deals, but find loop holes so they can betray them later. Some of the worst however have no objections to doing exactly what they have promised. Because usually their end of the bargain involves them doing what they would like to. Which is usually atrocity.


There are some who worship demons, but by in large it is more akin to a contract. Most dealings with demons involve having the details of such arrangements written down. Indeed it's good practice to begin with. Because well nature spirits may forget their promises and can change their minds, and the gods may back down on agreements without warning or explanation, a demon can on occasion be held accountable.

Most demons are infinitely self interested and dedicated to acquisition of power. Many feel obligated to the idea of power itself. Demon worship is most often more akin to the worship of power than anything else.

Hell has a hierarchy, with six infinitely warring beings at it's top. But at the same time they have some level of admiration for each other. To cooperate for a time is not an impossible idea and it is common for alliances between these Demon lords to occur. They can quickly dissolve, and none of them are foolish enough to think that it would last. The demon lords claim to be the first things to ever exist, and that they will have always existed and will continue to do so even after the world has been destroyed. And in all this time they will fight each other.

The demon lords also claim to be indestructible, which may well be the case.

Amongst the Orcs and other races, some choose to worship demons. These groups tend to be posses greater levels of organization and technology, many of which rival humanities. The most prominent Demon Worshiping race however are the Drow. Banished for having turned against the nature, the Demons opened up a hole in the earth for them to turn to. Here they have been free to develop their powers and grow in strength. On the surface, Elf Civilization may be near death and all but forgotten, but underneath the Drow rule. Demon worshiping humans are not unheard of either, how many of these accusations hold truth is questionable, as it is common practice to call anything that one does not agree with demon worship. Humans do not acknowledge the existence of nature spirits, and instead refer to these as 'forest demons' or 'river demons'



I think that's most of what I've come up with so far. The ultimate goal of the game will be to kill the gods and bring down human civilization. How exactly that happens is still open. Also, much of the game will revolve around getting the various people to all cooperate with each other, and in fact keeping them all from destroying themselves will probably take up a lot of the game too. Furthermore, the party is going to be composed of pretty diverse forces that will be at each others throats as well.

And if you're picking up some "Christian" overtones there in the gods, rest assured it's intentional. This is not meant as an attack on Christianity, it's meant as an attack on it's elements. It's even kind of tempting to put elements such as forgiveness and mercy in what would have to be by process of elimination the Nature Spirits.

But this would kind of defeat the point. In this setting, good has essentially been crippled. While the Nature Spirits have something of a Chaotic Good bias? They are neither strong enough or organized enough by themselves to do much other than exist. Which is it's point really. To exist rather. While it may seem pretty disorganized and random, strange patterns seem to arise. Those individual spirits may be fairly chaotic and random, but collectively? You have a forest.

More positive aspects of Christianity can creep their way into some future campaign.

The demons are meant to add an element of moral uncertainty. Yes, most of them are horrible monsters that would kill you without a second thought and if that's all they do you should count yourself extremely lucky. But they are also a means to an end. Some of them can be pretty reasonable. And that's another thing, they represent the horrors or reason. Neutral demons are not unheard of, and even a good one is not out of the question. This is made easier by the fact that it's a morally relativistic game.


I think that coming up with the stuff for the Human Gods will be easy for the most part. In a way, they're about the lack of thought. I could probably even plunder some of the D&D pantheon and they'd fit right in (oh yeah, I went there). Not going to do that though.

The tricky parts will be with the Demons and Nature Spirits. And, where does Arcane magic come from? I could just say that all Arcane Magic is Demon, but that doesn't quite work. I mean, for one it means that player priests would be completely impossible. (Humans are the only ones that have gods, but the Demon Lords are roughly equivalent to gods). I'm not really sure I want to be cutting off the cleric spell list. Arcane magic 'just exists' doesn't feel right to me because most of the stuff going on carries with it at least some kind of meaning.

Also, Demons as a whole present a problem. As agents of power works well enough, but what about individual ones and their various goals? How to divide the Six of the big ones? I have a thought that they could represent various aspects of the universe itself, like say, gravity, time and all this. But that takes away a bit than having them as powerful negative forces. What they should be is a system that on the whole 'works', because of the constant fighting and destruction all mashing together. And, I had the thought that Demons would need to feed off negative emotions. But then, destruction in general might work too.

How elves come into the game is another problem. One the one hand, elves are traditionally on the same "side" as humans, and against Orcs. On the other in this setting? Those pointy eared dandelion eaters would be much more likely to side with Orcs. I do have the idea that there would have at some point long ago been great Elf, and Dwarf civilizations that crumbled. What sort of belief system would they have? It would be stupid to have them aligned with the Gods because so much of them is associated with humans who, don't exist. And by all accounts it seems neither did those gods. It's a bit of a stretch, but I think if I had civilizations like this, they could be some variation on Nature Spirit worshiping.

Drow are not particularly necessary either. And I could probably really just make something else up too.

Furthermore, should I through in some of those fun Aberrations like Mind Flayers and Aboleths? And where do the Undead fit? While I can probably get away with discarding all these other things from the setting, I don't think I can do that with the Undead. Both of them could fit reasonably enough in with the Demon line, or even the Gods. But that doesn't seem quite right either. Should I just say screw it and just full on get with the Lovecrafting?(which by the way has an ability modifier of negative wisdom, just so you know. And I wish I could claim I thought of this word play)



And because of my love of non sequitur I have to throw this idea. How about a Shoggoth as a player character? As a mount that could be equipped with saddles? How about with monk levels?


Other than that last bit, I apologize for the somewhat lack of organization. This is, after all, hardly complete.

Thoughtbot360
2007-06-08, 04:22 AM
The tricky parts will be with the Demons and Nature Spirits. And, where does Arcane magic come from? I could just say that all Arcane Magic is Demon, but that doesn't quite work. I mean, for one it means that player priests would be completely impossible. (Humans are the only ones that have gods, but the Demon Lords are roughly equivalent to gods). I'm not really sure I want to be cutting off the cleric spell list. Arcane magic 'just exists' doesn't feel right to me because most of the stuff going on carries with it at least some kind of meaning.


Arcane Magic is a tricky issue. The original literary Wizards (Gandalf and Merlin) facilitated the plot and where themselves Demigods (or some kind of alien creature that might as well be a Demigod). Wizards at their origin have more "religious" overtones than the average fantasy gamer would like to admit. The accepted way to look at Arcane Magic vs. Divine magic is one is "Secular" and one is "Religious". Basically Wizards manipulate connections to the Astral and Ethereal plane or use magic inherent in certain object to control greater forces that are part of the world (or as you put it "it just exists) and Priests/Shamans/Druids/Diabolists whatever just ask a greater entity for help. An attractive idea is: If Divine Magic comes from the outside, Arcane Magic might come from the inside. Basically assume that every Wizard and Sorcerer is the equivalent of a Cleric of Boccob (Only they are so different, they naturally get a different spell list than other clerics); however, "Boccob" is not a god so much as a force that exists in Astral Space/the Collective Unconcious/the thing that drives evolution. If Wizards speak of "Boccob" (or his equivalent) they might do so as eastern monks speak of Buddah existing in a state of enlightenment, rather than how Christains speak of a divine Judge sitting on a Throne atop the Clouds.

But Arcane Magic (at least the Wizardly magic that "Just exists") is usually ignored by the story. What if it was critically important? I mean, why deal with all this magic just availible to you if just study, would you turn to a God/Spirit/Demon (especially a demon)? Maybe Arcane magic's own backstory has something to do with how the human gods where created in the first place, or a secret to their destruction....

Xuincherguixe
2007-06-08, 04:48 AM
One option is that it just chooses to work with forces that 'exist'. Without any particular regard to what the connections are, and what it means. Or at least not beyond that of a purely rational way. Or in otherwords, it's secular exactly as you put it.

I was initially a bit hesitant to the idea of magic from within, but it actually fits very nicely. Arcane magic then, free of all outside interference offers the potential to exert ones will, and change the world.

The demonic connections with the Arcane is simply that they know it's secrets. It may be that everyone has some potential to exert influence, however with many it never amounts to much. Wizards as part of what they do would focus on how to get the most of what energy they have often drawing on the energy from outside, where as Sorcerers (and Warlocks) finding it easier to work with their (greater amounts) of innate power use it.

Also, it beats 'forgetting' spells. Books of spells aren't just words, their explanations of the complicated things one has to manipulate energy, to produce those affects.


Thanks, this actually helped a lot.

edit: What I meant with 'just exists' is that the magic is there with no real thought to it. "Why can I cast spells and you can't? I'm a wizard! That's why! See all these words in this book? When you say them it doesn't do anything, but when I do it's boom! Fireball. Why? I told you, I'm a wizard! How does one become a wizard? They get a level in the wizard class!" I don't so much have a problem with 'strange energy fields' that 'some people are better at manipulating than others'. I mean, not everyone can bench press a 200 kilograms. It's also pretty hard to get away from the 'weird energy field' thing, so I'm not even going to try.

Swooper
2007-06-08, 04:55 AM
First of all, I love this idea. Let's see what I could make of this to help...

Arcane magic. The simple way would be to say that it's just a primal force neither good nor evil in nature, although it can be used as a means to either end. Some are born with the power to control it, others have to study for it. Another way would be to define arcane magic as either good or evil. If the Gods grant arcane power and the Daemon Lords divine power, I'd say that's an interesting way of blurring the alignment line, heh.

The nature spirits could also grant divine power. Either use druids as the
'shaman' class, what with their connection to nature and all, or let PC clerics worship them, choosing any two domains within reasonable limit to match the portfolio of their patron-spirit. Or if you have Complete Divine (which I don't, so this could be horsesh*t) you could use the Spirit Shaman class, possibly modified to fit. I'm sure you'll figure something out.

Make the Daemon Lords represent some values opposite to the human faith, some 'vices' if you will, but try to make it ones the monster races can interpret as virtues. For an example, there could a Demon Lord of Lust (a perfect patron for your succubus PC, no?) that his followers claim stands for Fertility.

That's all I can think of right now, I might get back to you if something more comes to me.

Xuincherguixe
2007-06-08, 05:37 AM
First of all, I love this idea. Let's see what I could make of this to help...


Thanks :P



Arcane magic. The simple way would be to say that it's just a primal force neither good nor evil in nature, although it can be used as a means to either end. Some are born with the power to control it, others have to study for it. Another way would be to define arcane magic as either good or evil. If the Gods grant arcane power and the Daemon Lords divine power, I'd say that's an interesting way of blurring the alignment line, heh.

This actually got settled, in a manner more or less like that. It's fairly important in my mind that both sides have access to spells.




The nature spirits could also grant divine power. Either use druids as the
'shaman' class, what with their connection to nature and all, or let PC clerics worship them, choosing any two domains within reasonable limit to match the portfolio of their patron-spirit. Or if you have Complete Divine (which I don't, so this could be horsesh*t) you could use the Spirit Shaman class, possibly modified to fit. I'm sure you'll figure something out.

I'm a little undecided here. If I relax the alignment restrictions (which lets face it, I'm going to do anyways), druids make fine Shamans. But the two Shaman classes (Shaman's Handbook has a better implementation in my mind, but it's similar enough). But again, I'm not sure that I need to put in another class here.




Make the Daemon Lords represent some values opposite to the human faith, some 'vices' if you will, but try to make it ones the monster races can interpret as virtues. For an example, there could a Demon Lord of Lust (a perfect patron for your succubus PC, no?) that his followers claim stands for Fertility.

This gets way too Christian. And Cliche. There is no way I'm doing a line based on 'Seven Deadly sins'. I'd much rather draw on emotions generally considered negative. And that way can be argued as necessary. The demonic 'system' is supposed to be something that's brutal, but the worst thing about it is that it works. It's the dedication to power, control, and the self that are what lead demons to be evil. The succubus character ends up that lust is fairly low. This character just uses sex as a weapon. She would just as soon butcher a village if it was the easier way. But then, it's hard to imagine a situation where butchering thousands is an easier way to get something then sex.
The character also takes a bit of a preying mantis approach. From what it sounds like, this character is on a literary figure.

Her goal is to become essentially a god. While the Demon lords are permanent fixed aspects of the Universe, those directly under them are not.


Actually, another problem I have is with names. I need to come up with different terms. Lord does not do justice to the position of these things. The demon lords are comparable to the Outer Gods in the Cthulhu Mythos (for those who know of such things).

I forgot to mention that the Demon Lords are actually much stronger than the Human gods. But they've been sealed up. They still have tremendous power, but this is mostly through influence and delegation.

I'm thinking part of the game may be to break the seals. This will be even better if I manage to get some Good aligned players.



That's all I can think of right now, I might get back to you if something more comes to me.
And that doesn't need a response, but it's quoted anyways for sake of completion. Yeah, I'm like that :P