More damage? Glaivelock or Mailman?

[Warrnan]

Who can crank out more pain in a single round?

[Dread_Head]

I'm pretty sure it's the Mailman but I haven't seen numbers for a fully optimised Glaivelock.

[glitterbaby]

I'm of the same mind as Dread_Head. I was under the impression that a mailmain can crank out ridiculous amounts of damage and that Glaivelock wasn't much better than your standard two-handed power attacker but I guess I've also never seen a fully optimized build. I'm very interested in seeing the comparison now.

[nedz]

It depends upon the level.
Glaivelock is probably higher at lower levels, but once the Mailman's tricks come online he will overtake.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Mailman all the way. A glaivelock tops out at what, 4*18d6 or so, with a wand of Divine Power? Pretty sure the mailman can do way more than 250 damage, and without worrying about spell resistance or melee range. (Twined Repeated Maximized Empowered Orb of Force gets you 360, for instance)

[Troacctid]

The Mailman puts out more damage in an average round than the Glaivelock, and does so at lower levels.

[Ellowryn]

Who can crank out more pain in a single round?

Per round? Mailman all the way, in fact only a optimized shocktrooper barbarian stands close to equaling the damage.

Over the course of the day, assuming 4 fights, the warlock will start to edge out the mailman due to the fact that the sorcerer has to spend daily resources to achieve that damage (mainly spell slots) while the warlock can do it every round (assuming he can always be in range to get his abilities off).

[D4rkh0rus]

I dont remember Exactly what Metamagic I used, but the full combo Included: Energy Sub (Fire), Energy Admixture, Twin spell, Ocular Spell, Split Ray, Empower and Maximize) Using Orb of Fire or Combust, and Reserves of Strength.

I think I got around 3,000 Damage for a single 4th level spell slot.

The Glaive-lock doesnt reach these numbers, but, It can do more things. Warlock/Ur-priest Eldritch Disciple can do some crazy stuff -aside- from damage, such as Healing (Healing blast) for tons of HP, and well, the entire Cleric spell list. Heck, If you take the Ur-Priest adaptation where you can worship Dead gods, you can choose one of the 'Dead Mystras' lying around (Theres like 3) and then Take Initiate of Mystra, and have fun toting around a persisted Anti-magic field while casting inside it.

But in terms of sheer DPR, or DPE (Damage per Encounter) The Mailman will end up winning.

[nedz]

At level 1:
Glaivelock will do 1d6, plus more if AoO are triggered.
Mailman will also do 1d6, but only for the first 4 rounds.

At level 3:
Glaivelock will do 2d6, plus more if AoO are triggered.
Mailman will also do 2d6, but only for the first 6 rounds.

Both are targeting Touch AC so the chance to hit will be similar.

[Warrnan]

Yea. I thought the mailman would probably win because of his spell list. I just remember a glaivelock maximizing his spell-like ability with a feat from some monster manual and also quickening it. Getting off a full attack and a quickened blast for roughly 450 damage. He hadn't used a divine power wand so his base attack was still lower but dang it was impressive. He basically deleted any monster in his cross hairs once per round. We were around level 15.

[Florian]

What do we compare? First strike or total?

[Warrnan]

I'd say how many points of damage in one round of combat. It fairly obvious that a warlock will win the more encounters you cram into a day.

[Troacctid]

Sorcerers have a ton of spell slots, and they don't have to go full nova to match a Warlock's damage. Maximized Scorching Rays will go a long way even if you're out of high-level spell slots for Arcane Fusion and Arcane Spellsurge. You have better staying power over a long day than you might think.

[MisterKaws]

Hellfire glaivelock till the first 10s, then mailman, but if we go epics, the warlock takes the lead again in at most 5 levels, why? lord of all essences for DOUBLE HELLFIRED MAXIMIZED EMPOWERED MACE-BOOSTED GLAIVES OF AWESOMENESS(and 0 con)

[Triskavanski]

What is mailman? Do they go postal?

[Troacctid]

Hellfire glaivelock till the first 10s, then mailman, but if we go epics, the warlock takes the lead again in at most 5 levels, why? lord of all essences for DOUBLE HELLFIRED MAXIMIZED EMPOWERED MACE-BOOSTED GLAIVES OF AWESOMENESS(and 0 con)

The glaivelock doesn't have any hellfire before level 11, and doesn't have any extra attacks before level 8. I think the Sorcerer pulls ahead in the damage race as early as level 4, and I don't think it's particularly close.

[ranagrande]

A blaster Ardent with Dominant Ideal can easily out-damage the Sorcerer Mailman.

[Warrnan]

What is mailman? Do they go postal?

Hahahaha! Yes they do go postal. The mailman is a sorceror who delivers almost irresistible "packages" of damage.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11092.0

Here is a link that contained a saved version of the original wotc deleted guide.

[GilesTheCleric]

Hahahaha! Yes they do go postal. The mailman is a sorceror who delivers almost irresistible "packages" of damage.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11092.0

Here is a link that contained a saved version of the original wotc deleted guide.

Additional mirrors of deleted WotC content can be found in the Index of 3.X WotC Threads in my signature; the mailman and many other famous builds are there.

[A_S]

I think an optimized glaivelock's damage at high levels is being underestimated here.

Things that should be included in that damage calculation:
Empower Spell-like Ability, Maximize Spell-like Ability, and Quicken Spell-like Ability can all be applied to Eldritch Glaive. They're 3/day each, so you don't get to use them all day, but if we're comparing to the mailman (who also has daily limits on his tricks), they seem fair to include.
Mortalbane adds another 2d6 against valid targets (which is most things).
Every Warlock should be assumed to be carrying a (Greater) Chasuble of Fell Power as soon as they can afford them. They also probably have a Warlock's Scepter, but it's a swift action activation, so you can't use it and throw out a Quickened Eldritch Glaive in the same round.
Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster can both advance Hellfire Warlock past the normal 3 levels (the wording of Hellfire Blast is phrased in terms of a level-derived formula). If your level split is Warlock 8/Uncanny Trickster 1/Hellfire Warlock 3/Uncanny Trickster +2/Legacy Champion 6, that means your base Eldritch Blast is that of a level 18 warlock (8d6), and you have 10 effective levels of Hellfire Warlock, so your Hellfire Blast adds 20d6 additional damage.
If the glaivelock in question decides to blow all the resources they can on a single round worth of burst damage, here's what it looks like:
Before Maximize and Empower, each hit of their Eldritch Glaive is dealing 8d6 (base) + 20d6 (Hellfire Blast) + 2d6 (Mortalbane) + 2d6 (Greater Chasuble of Fell Power), or a total of 32d6 damage.
After applying Maximize and Empower, that means each hit deals 192 + 16d6, or an average of 248 damage.
The meta-SLA feats can all be applied at once, so you should be delivering one Quickened Maximized Empowered Eldritch Glaive and one Maximized Empowered Eldritch Glaive in one round, for a total of 6 attacks.
Total damage if every attack hits is 1488 in a single round.
Again, there are some caveats to this. The meta-SLA feats are 3/day, and Mortalbane is 5/day, so a glaivelock using this stuff can't put out this level of damage all day. Not every attack is guaranteed to hit. And many DM's would consider advancement of Hellfire Warlock past 3 to be cheesy.

But remember that what we're comparing this to is the Mailman, AKA "cheese out metamagic reduction as much as possible to get huge numbers on your nukes." I think doing the same with our Eldritch Glaive just makes it a fair comparison.

*edit* Fixed damage; the build posted here only gets 3 attacks per Eldritch Glaive, not 4.

[Troacctid]

Mailmen aren't cheesy. They're just using the rules exactly as they were intended to do exactly what they were intended to do. The build doesn't involve any crazy loopholes or questionable interpretations--it's just a selection of powerful, synergistic spells combined with powerful, synergistic feats and an overpowered prestige class.

On the other hand, advancing Hellfire Warlock with Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion is dicey from a RAW perspective because even the most generous reading is ambiguous, and any stricter reading results in it simply not working.

(Bloodline levels do it fine, though, aside from being generally dysfunctional and weird.)

[AmberVael]

(Bloodline levels do it fine, though, aside from being generally dysfunctional and weird.)

All you have to do get bloodlines to work is figure out how they actually work. Totally easy, right? :smalltongue:


Anyway, my money is on the mailman too. Not only is there more potential material and power to work with from the get go, but the very idea of the mailman is delivering that damage reliably. Glaivelock has problems to deal with in that department. Plus, even moderately optimized metamagic is pretty crazy.

[A_S]

I think the RAW case for extra-advancing HFW is pretty strong, but I certainly won't dispute that it makes my "unintended rules use" sense tingle more than the Mailman does.

Even without Legacy Champion cheese, though, a Warlock 17/HFW 3 who otherwise uses the tricks outlined above still does an average of 894 damage per round. I'm guessing it's less than the upper bound on Mailman-style blasting either way, but still higher than glaivelocks were being given credit for.

[AmberVael]

Even without Legacy Champion cheese, though, a Warlock 17/HFW 3 who otherwise uses the tricks outlined above still does an average of 894 damage per round. I'm guessing it's less than the upper bound on Mailman-style blasting either way, but still higher than glaivelocks were being given credit for.

Its a once per day nova trick that requires massive investment on the part of the Warlock. Is it powerful? Yeah. But you're sinking all character resources into that once per day trick. I'd hope its impressive. On the other hand, your typical damage with such a character will end up being around 180 per turn, which is not nearly as stellar, especially given the melee range, spell resistance, and lower attack bonus of some of the attacks.
Though once you drop the spell-like metamagic feats you can probably afford to stick on Vitriolic, and that'll help a bit.

[A_S]

Its a once per day nova trick that requires massive investment on the part of the Warlock. Is it powerful? Yeah. But you're sinking all character resources into that once per day trick. I'd hope its impressive. On the other hand, your typical damage with such a character will end up being around 180 per turn, which is not nearly as stellar, especially given the melee range, spell resistance, and lower attack bonus of some of the attacks.
Though once you drop the spell-like metamagic feats you can probably afford to stick on Vitriolic, and that'll help a bit.
I'm not saying it's a particularly good character build! Just that, w/r/t the OP's question about which of the two can put out more damage in a single round, the estimates being given for glaivelock earlier in the thread (e.g., by Grod) were giving it too little credit.

[nedz]

Right, so if I add Mortalbane to the Warlock my numbers become. Mortalbane is only 5/day
Mailman's early feats are Iron Will and Maximize Spell.

At level 1:
Glaivelock will do 3d6, plus more if AoO are triggered; but only for the first 5 rounds - 1d6 thereafter
Mailman will do 1d8, but only for the first 4 rounds - assuming lesser Orb

At level 3:
Glaivelock will do 4d6, plus more if AoO are triggered; but only for the first 5 rounds - 2d6 thereafter
Mailman will do 2d8, but only for the first 6 rounds - assuming lesser Orb

At level 5:
Glaivelock will do 5d6, plus more if AoO are triggered; but only for the first 5 rounds - 3d6 thereafter
Mailman will do 4d6, but only for the first 4 rounds - with Scorching Ray
then, Mailman will do 3d8, but only for the next 7 rounds - with lesser Orb

Glaivelock is ahead for the first 5 rounds, then behind for the next 6, then he pulls ahead again because the Mailman is spent.

The numbers after this point get more complex because:
Mailman has an option of taking Empower instead of Maximise, which boosts damage output at low levels.
Glaivelock will buy a lesser chasuble ASAP for another 1d6.

[Florian]

Per round? Mailman all the way, in fact only a optimized shocktrooper barbarian stands close to equaling the damage.

Over the course of the day, assuming 4 fights, the warlock will start to edge out the mailman due to the fact that the sorcerer has to spend daily resources to achieve that damage (mainly spell slots) while the warlock can do it every round (assuming he can always be in range to get his abilities off).

I'm also asking how clinging damage should be counted.
I played a Glaivelock thru the Savage Tide AP (don't remember the specific spread anymore, warlock/binder/ur-priest/that divine theurge/hellfire warlock) and used vitriolic a lot.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Right, so if I add Mortalbane to the Warlock my numbers become. Mortalbane is only 5/day
Mailman's early feats are Iron Will and Maximize Spell.
Why are you only looking at the absolute lowest levels? 5/10/15/20 would give us a better picture

[nedz]

Why are you only looking at the absolute lowest levels? 5/10/15/20 would give us a better picture

To explore my conjecture from post #4

Besides others have already run the numbers for level 20 and we know that Mailman[20] > Glaivelock[20]

Also I need more time to think about the mid level options; and more time in general.

Why are you complaining about my performing any quantitative analysis ?

[Chronos]

The mailman might only use rules the way they were intended to be used, but a lot of those rules were intended to be crazily overpowered. I'm not sure that's actually any less cheesy than what the optimized glaivelock uses, even if it wasn't intended.

[khadgar567]

if homebrew alowed this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pjivfmKHlwiYZgGcfFMKWngMX8g75PGyuZUhN9nzEc/edit?usp=sharing) puppy owns both of them

[Malroth]

pre Lv 6 i'd say glaivelock, Post lv 6 mailman all the way

[Flickerdart]

Here's a question:

Can a glaivelock top the mailman's damage if he had an entire day to do it, vs. the mailman only getting to use his spell slots? And none of that arcane spellsurge infinite spells cast! I'm just curious if "can do it at will" actually helps the warlock catch up.

[Troacctid]

Here's a question:

Can a glaivelock top the mailman's damage if he had an entire day to do it, vs. the mailman only getting to use his spell slots? And none of that arcane spellsurge infinite spells cast! I'm just curious if "can do it at will" actually helps the warlock catch up.

You mean like a Warforged pounding on an unconscious troll with his eldritch glaive for 24 hours straight? Probably, sure, but I doubt that would be relevant in a normal adventuring day.

[Flickerdart]

Not even remotely relevant, but I think it's interesting to see if having damage at-will grants even a hypothetical advantage.

[Florian]

Here's a question:

Can a glaivelock top the mailman's damage if he had an entire day to do it, vs. the mailman only getting to use his spell slots? And none of that arcane spellsurge infinite spells cast! I'm just curious if "can do it at will" actually helps the warlock catch up.

Note that most Glaivelock built on the Ur-Priest and have options beside whacking enemies with the glaive.

Yes, they can and will top the mailman, because we're talking about an at will ability here. If you don't depend too much on hellfire, there is only one reasource to care for and that is hp, which you should have covered.

[Flickerdart]

Yes, they can and will top the mailman, because we're talking about an at will ability here. If you don't depend too much on hellfire, there is only one reasource to care for and that is hp, which you should have covered.

See, this is exactly why I want to see numbers. You're still just making an assertion; we don't actually know if it's true.

[Florian]

See, this is exactly why I want to see numbers. You're still just making an assertion; we don't actually know if it's true.

Ok. My Glaivelock was built on "sticky" damage, meaning ~250 on the first full attack and escalating from there, escalating by roughly 50*round. Escalating damage would cap at ~150 after the third Round and stay stable there.
That is with Divine amight and without Haste. Haste would up both values by 20%

[nedz]

pre Lv 6 i'd say glaivelock, Post lv 6 mailman all the way

Numbers please ?


The most difficult decision here is Maximize vs. Empower at level 3.
Mailman has a choice: Empower at 3rd and Practical Metamagic: Empower at 6th or Maximize at 3rd and Practical Metamagic: Maximize at 6th

With the former he can add 50% to his damage to Scorching Ray at 6th, with the latter he can't do that, he can only Maximize a lesser Orb at that point. The standard build assumes the latter.

Also Note: Mailman hasn't even entered Incantatrix at this point.

Glaivelock can reliably use Wands to buff at around 6th, and there are many possibly melle buffs.

Glaivelock also suffers from rules dilemma: Does Power Attack work with Eldritch Glaive or not ?
Whatever your view might be on this: there is no settled opinion — it really isn't worth debating because no one has a definitive answer.

Also Glaivelock might be able to generate AoO: but this is a tactical consideration.

I think it's obvious that Mailman overtakes Glaivelock at some point, but there are too many open questions as to when that happens.

[ExLibrisMortis]

See, this is exactly why I want to see numbers. You're still just making an assertion; we don't actually know if it's true.
There are 14400 rounds in a day; a Warlock 16/Hellfire Warlock 3/Binder 1 with chasuble of fell power can throw a 4*16d6 full attack (assuming haste, but not divine power).

That works out to 921.600d6 damage per day.

A mailman gets 6/10/9/9/9/9/8/8/8/8 spells per day, with 36 charisma. That's 84 spells - you'd need over 10.000d6 damage per spell slot to out-damage our hellfire glaivelock, including cantrip slots.

However, we can do that. Enter twinned repeating vortex of teeth, persisted using Incantatrix - take a high-intelligence form using shapechange before attempting this. Cast the super-vortex eight times out of a ninth-level slot, and you get 8 * 2 * 2 * 3d8 = 96d8 damage per round (and per target!) for 14400 rounds exactly.

I think the mailman needs a little more cheese than the warlock to win - for one, vortex of teeth does not move with the target, so you need to lock it down or guide fresh meat into the grinder at all times. However, the ability to persist fire-all-day spells makes it possible to out-gun a warlock, if required, and if you're okay with not refreshing spells that day.

[ben-zayb]

Note that most Glaivelock built on the Ur-Priest and have options beside whacking enemies with the glaive.
Citation needed.

[Florian]

Citation needed.

No need to, as it is self-evident.
Warlock is the easiest class to enter Ur-Priest, Ur-Priest is the most usefull PrC to enter Eldritch Disciple. You do this, you end up with a nearly full progression Warlock as well as access to 9th level cleric casting at lvl 16.
Outside of "no evil alignment", there is no other option that can compare to this.

[A_S]

No need to, as it is self-evident.
Warlock is the easiest class to enter Ur-Priest, Ur-Priest is the most usefull PrC to enter Eldritch Disciple. You do this, you end up with a nearly full progression Warlock as well as access to 9th level cleric casting at lvl 16.
Outside of "no evil alignment", there is no other option that can compare to this.
"Ur-Priest-based Glaivelocks are optimal" and "Most Glaivelocks are Ur-priest-based" are two distinct claims, and neither one implies the other. Even if, as you're arguing, it's self-evident that basing your Glaivelock on Ur-Priest casting is better than not doing so, we still need a citation for the claim about frequency.

[Florian]

"Ur-Priest-based Glaivelocks are optimal" and "Most Glaivelocks are Ur-priest-based" are two distinct claims, and neither one implies the other. Even if, as you're arguing, it's self-evident that basing your Glaivelock on Ur-Priest casting is better than not doing so, we still need a citation for the claim about frequency.

A serious citation would need a census to use as a source. That we don't have and propably will never get. I personally would shy away from using any sources below that.

This special case is actually simple, though, as the base class we talk about here, the Warlock, only had very limited rules support and few supplements to built up on, so it is very easy to gain an overview on what is possible ans shunt that into the ususal tiers.

[Troacctid]

No need to, as it is self-evident.
Warlock is the easiest class to enter Ur-Priest, Ur-Priest is the most usefull PrC to enter Eldritch Disciple. You do this, you end up with a nearly full progression Warlock as well as access to 9th level cleric casting at lvl 16.
Outside of "no evil alignment", there is no other option that can compare to this.

Warlocks have a poor Fort save, so they cannot enter Ur-Priest until after level 9. It also precludes taking Hellfire Warlock, which is extremely painful for a glaivelock, since hellfire damage is pretty important to the build.

[Psyren]

Does 3.5 have an equivalent to Pearl of Power for spontaneous casters? Being able to regain your daily slots for some portion of WBL would settle the at-will vs. ammunition debate.

[AmberVael]

Warlocks have a poor Fort save, so they cannot enter Ur-Priest until after level 9. It also precludes taking Hellfire Warlock, which is extremely painful for a glaivelock, since hellfire damage is pretty important to the build.
There's a number of ways to boost your Fortitude for such a build. One easy, pretty painless way is a Mindbender dip (which speeds things up at least by a couple of levels). Escalation Mage can also work.


Does 3.5 have an equivalent to Pearl of Power for spontaneous casters? Being able to regain your daily slots for some portion of WBL would settle the at-will vs. ammunition debate.

Memento Magica, MIC page 164. Costs more than the Pearl of Power, but it does the job.

[Troacctid]

There's a number of ways to boost your Fortitude for such a build. One easy, pretty painless way is a Mindbender dip (which speeds things up at least by a couple of levels). Escalation Mage can also work.

Which loses you another point of BAB that, as a glaivelock, you really can't spare. Now you're not getting a second attack until level 11, on top of delaying your greater invocations by two levels (so no Vitriolic Blast) and Hellfire Warlock by who knows how many. At that point you might as well not even bother with Eldritch Glaive in the first place.

[AmberVael]

I suppose I was mainly thinking of warlock/Ur-Priest, not so much glaivelock. I agree that trying to swing hellfire and glaivelock is quite awkward, just wanted to point out that you hardly need to wait until level 9 to get into Ur-Priest as a warlock.


Hm. Maybe...

Warlock 5 / Escalation Mage 1 / Ur-Priest 2 / Eldritch Disciple 9 / Hellfire Warlock 3

I think something like that could work out, but I imagine progressing through it as an incomplete build would be excruciating at points as it really only comes together at the latest levels. I'm not sure when you'd actually take Hellfire Warlock levels- I doubt you'd just throw it on at the very end there. Your BAB is trash, of course, but you'd use Divine Power to make up for that once you got access to it.


Still, the warlock/ur-priest/eldritch disciple build is probably better without the addition of glaivelock, and thought of more as a divine caster build with an appetizer of warlock.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Um, what's wrong with a level of binder? They have a good fortitude save, and while they don't advance casting, Naberius is pretty classic for Hellfire Warlocks. Binder 1/Warlock 4/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 10/Hellfire Warlock 3 works fine, as hellfire ur-locks go. 17th-level invocations, 12th-level Ur-Priest casting, and you still get Decieve Item (the only warlock feature you really want until 12th). Great social skill synergy, too, between Naberius and Beguiling Influence, and pretty easy on the class skills, too (though you may still want to be a human, or put some points in int).

[Troacctid]

Um, what's wrong with a level of binder? They have a good fortitude save, and while they don't advance casting, Naberius is pretty classic for Hellfire Warlocks. Binder 1/Warlock 4/Ur-Priest 2/Eldritch Disciple 10/Hellfire Warlock 3 works fine, as hellfire ur-locks go. 17th-level invocations, 12th-level Ur-Priest casting, and you still get Decieve Item (the only warlock feature you really want until 12th). Great social skill synergy, too, between Naberius and Beguiling Influence, and pretty easy on the class skills, too (though you may still want to be a human, or put some points in int).

Then you're losing BAB and an extra level of casting, so it's vastly worse. You don't get your second attack until level 11 (and you never get a third attack), you don't get Vitriolic Blast until 14 at the earliest, and the campaign is already over by the time you take your first level of Hellfire Warlock.

[Rebel7284]

I feel that if Ur Priest is on the table, DMM persist probably is too. Persistent Divine Power solves all BAB issues. The bigger problem, IMO, is having to convince your DM that Ur Priest can enter a class which requires "must worship a chaotic or evil deity." If you are playing the whole "priest of a dead god" thing, seems reasonable, but not guaranteed.

[Florian]

Right on all accounts. Who cares about BAB after you have DMM divine power? No one. Binder ups fort save enough to enter Ur-Priest and, like usual, you will need it for Hellfire Warlock later. Wasn't that the point of the whole exercise?

Fluff-wise, this is oretty much on easy mode. Most vestiges seem to be class-a dortbags, so worhipping one, for example Karsus, make this nearly a no-brainer.

[Tvtyrant]

Does the math change if you abuse the uncanny trickster-hellfire warlock synergy-legacy champion (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5934.0) synergy?

So with maximize SLA you can do about 860 damage as burst damage (Three max damage, 1 normal) and then 560 each other turn.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Then you're losing BAB and an extra level of casting, so it's vastly worse. You don't get your second attack until level 11 (and you never get a third attack), you don't get Vitriolic Blast until 14 at the earliest, and the campaign is already over by the time you take your first level of Hellfire Warlock.
You lose... no eldritch blast damage (this is a glaivelock, right, this is what we want?), one invocation (oh look, Ur-Priests have some spells), and no base attack, because you're using partial base attack, obviously. In return, you cancel out the one major disadvantage of hellfire, and gain other unique options, like turn attempts (oh look, Ur-Priests can persist some spells), scout birds and so on. Yes, it comes online late, but that's a given with a theurge build that also fits in a second prestige class. You don't play that kind of build unless you know you're getting up to that level.

[Troacctid]

Yes, it comes online late, but that's a given with a theurge build that also fits in a second prestige class. You don't play that kind of build unless you know you're getting up to that level.

Most games don't get up to that level. Even of the ones that do, delaying the build so that you come online several levels later is a significant drawback. It looks fine if you start at 20, but if we're ignoring the levels before that, Healer and Truenamer would be T1 classes. There's a reason it's not standard for all Druids to dip a level of Monk and two levels of Totemist, and it's not because transforming into a Huge elemental is too good to lose.

I'm not saying it's not a viable build, but it's not optimal, and it's certainly not a standard glaivelock build.