Pathfinder ..Sure smells awfully gishy in here (Half-Orc Eldritch Knight) [Archive]

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Second Arrow

2015-12-02, 05:36 PM

Hey y'all.

In Norway we have this joke about how we wanted the most perfect country in the world to live in, with beautiful scenery and women, natural resources that provides wealth, a temperate climate, and in general everything you could ever wish for - to which God replies and says something to the lines of "..fine, but just wait until you see the horrible neighbours you're getting", and starts creating Sweden out of spite.

Along those same lines - I have long had a deep-down desire to play an Eldritch Knight that does not feel like an absolute grind to play - a good, solid build, that sort of gives everything that you could ever wish for, be it 9th level casting, good defenses and saving throws, respectable combat damage... at relatively early levels.

And yes, I can already hear you cry out "Just play a cleric! Cease this foolish endeavour!" - but I have stubbornness issues, I want to play an Eldritch Knight. :smallsigh:

So, here's what I'm thinking.

Half-Orc Swashbuckler 1 (Inspired Blade) / Witch 6 (Scarred Witch Doctor, Strength Patron)
Eldritch Knight 10 / Spherewalker 3

Half-Orc alternate racial traits:
City-Raised, Sacred Tattoo, Shaman's Apprentice

20 PB:
STR 10 / DEX 16+2 / CON 14 / INT 15 <- + from levels go here / WIS 10 / CHA 8

Traits & Drawbacks:
Ancestral Weapon / Fate's Favored / Foul Brand (D) / Magical Knack

Feat Progression:
L1: Endurance, Fencing Grace, Weapon Focus (Rapier)
L3: Arcane Strike
L5: Toughness
L7: ????
L8B: Piranha Strike
L9: Extend Spell
L11: ???? (MM Feat)
L12B: Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
L13: Quicken Spell
L15: Spell Perfection (Enervation?)
L16B: Greater Weapon Focus (Rapier)
L17: Iron Will
L19: ????

Hex Progression:
L3: Swamp's Grasp -> Free battlefield control, helllllo!
L5: Slumber
L7: Flight

So, it gets 9th level Witch casting, with a sweet accuracy booster in Divine Favor & Greater Magic Weapon. Scarred Witch Doctor no longer casts off Con, but the +2 to Int means that I'll effectively have 18 Int at level 4, and keep on going from there. At level 1, it attacks for +8 (1d6+4), which is decently accurate, considering how it won't improve that rapidly the first few levels.. but between Swamp's Grasp and Slumber, it seems like it won't run dry early game either.

Options I'm considering:
# Improved Initiative: Never a bad thing, even though I've got a decent Dexterity.
# Ability Focus: To put Slumber's DC up a bit more to par.
# Ritual Hex: Flexibility is the name of the game - and this one takes care of it big time.
# Step Up: Self-explanatory.
# Combat Reflexes: Could be really nice, since I'll get Opportune Parry from Swash.
# ... probably plenty more. Too tired to think of those things, though.

All in total, it gives +16 BAB, 20 CL, 9ths, base saving throws of +11/+11/+13 with Iron Will & Sacred Tattoo factored in... but most importantly, it seems like it can actually serve a purpose at lower levels too.

Thoughts?

Snowbluff

2015-12-02, 06:54 PM

Why is there even a hex progression list? IIRC the DCs scaling is broken, only scaling with witch level. Slumber won't scale, Flight covers a spell you can get otherwise.

You might want to just go arcanist instead. Blade Adept would give you more stuff usable in combat.

EDIT: Also, Foresight Wizards (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination/foresight) make really good Gish.

ON that note, you might want to think about Fortune Hex (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/common-hexes/hex-fortune-su). It's good, and you can Cackle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/common-hexes/hex-cackle-su) it. Spend the whole day laughing at yourself like an idiot to keep fortune up. Cackle is a move action, so you can do it twice a round. Cackle for a week straight, and you get the next week full of Fortune!

Kurald Galain

2015-12-02, 07:25 PM

All in total, it gives +16 BAB, 20 CL, 9ths, base saving throws of +11/+11/+13 with Iron Will & Sacred Tattoo factored in... but most importantly, it seems like it can actually serve a purpose at lower levels too.

Thoughts?

So what makes a character a gish? It seems to me that it's the ability to both attack with a weapon and cast a spell in the same round. And your build can do that... at level thirteen.

Since you mention you want to be viable at lower levels, how about a class that can do that straight from level one? You should check out the Magus. Why? Well, it can always attack and cast in the same round; it's effectively full BAB due to its enchantment ability; has a better spell list than the witch, and can access to the wizard list for more; and can take witch hexes if desired.

Plus it can ubercharge your ancestral weapon with the Bladebound archetype if you want, which makes it a sentient and self-enchanting blade. Is that gishy enough for you? :smallcool:

avr

2015-12-02, 10:21 PM

Piranha strike is for light weapons. A rapier is not light despite being finessable.

You seem to have more feats than you know what to do with. I mean, taking weapon spec at level 12 - a +2 damage bonus shouldn't matter by then, unless you're stacking lots of small bonuses, which you're not. If you can use variant multiclassing from PF unchained as well as normal multiclassing you might consider VMC magus, which gets you a bunch of useful abilities including spellstrike at level 11, in exchange for your level 3, 7, 11, 15 & 19 feats.

Second Arrow

2015-12-03, 08:59 AM

Replies! Oh, precious replies! I'd like to thank you for your input in advance, before anything else. It warms my heart to see people taking off their time of comfortable browsing to further the cause of optimality-in-name-only. :smallredface:

Why is there even a hex progression list? IIRC the DCs scaling is broken, only scaling with witch level. Slumber won't scale, Flight covers a spell you can get otherwise.

You might want to just go arcanist instead. Blade Adept would give you more stuff usable in combat.

EDIT: Also, Foresight Wizards (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo---arcane-schools/classic-arcane-schools/divination/foresight) make really good Gish.

ON that note, you might want to think about Fortune Hex (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/common-hexes/hex-fortune-su). It's good, and you can Cackle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/hexes---3rd-party-publishers/hexes/common-hexes/hex-cackle-su) it. Spend the whole day laughing at yourself like an idiot to keep fortune up. Cackle is a move action, so you can do it twice a round. Cackle for a week straight, and you get the next week full of Fortune!

I had the hex progression list to emphasise that I get hexes too, hah. And yes, you are entirely correct that only the witch level scales it, it should be something like 10+Int Mod + 1/2 Witch level, iirc.

That's why I love Swamp's Grasp, as it gives me free battlefield control all day, every day, no save, no spell slots used (and 6 10' squares should be decent enough for most purposes, I guess). I admit, I chose Slumber and Flight mainly due to the fact that they would help me to get through the lower levels and give me options there - and I'm fully aware that their usefulness will decrease over the levels (at least with Slumber, non-dispelable flight with an always-on Feather Fall seems handy as an emergency option). Fortune seems very thematic though, and the imagery of non-stop cackling throughout a week cracks me up to no end. Sounds like a wonderful replacement.

My main reason for going witch, as stated above, was the access to Divine Favor as a combat buff and a BAB patch. While the Bladebound Arcanist looks really nice (scaling the BB off caster level, yes please), I feel like my accuracy is going to suffer immensely as a result, at least at lower levels. That, and the delayed casting hurts even more, as I'm already going to be behind 2 levels on a full caster.. Though, if there's any options that I'm overlooking on the Sorc/Wizard list, please let me know.

So what makes a character a gish? It seems to me that it's the ability to both attack with a weapon and cast a spell in the same round. And your build can do that... at level thirteen.

Since you mention you want to be viable at lower levels, how about a class that can do that straight from level one? You should check out the Magus. Why? Well, it can always attack and cast in the same round; it's effectively full BAB due to its enchantment ability; has a better spell list than the witch, and can access to the wizard list for more; and can take witch hexes if desired.

Plus it can ubercharge your ancestral weapon with the Bladebound archetype if you want, which makes it a sentient and self-enchanting blade. Is that gishy enough for you? :smallcool:

What a surprise, the magus handbook author tries to sell me on a magus :P

Jokes aside, I love the magus, I really do. And I wanted to do something relatively different - I want the power of 9th level spells, superior action economy be thrice damned! As for whether or not it has a superior spell list to the Witch is debatable at best - sure, it's got more direct damage, but not the same creepy feel. Maybe I'm biased. Maybe I just want to look forward to being able to create my own demiplane, some day.

As for the accuracy fix, I'm not entirely convinced, however. It seems to me as if the Magi depend on boosting their BAB with enhancement bonuses to their weapons, which seems to me to be able to be replicated by either Greater Magic Weapon or just paying enough dosh at later levels. Sure, you'll be able to add plenty of special stuff to your weapon of choice, but.. unless you spam Arcane Accuracy or Accurate Strike, it seems like it'll be able to keep pace rather well? I mean, obviously I'm no nova magus, but even at the very bitter end, it seems like a Divine Favor + 16 BAB effectively gives me a +2 over the Magi Spell Combat?
(-5 Piranha Strike, +4 Divine Favor, +1 BAB for +14 damage) vs (-2 Spell Combat, two attacks).

Again, though, Bladebound is pretty mental. Not denying that :smallbiggrin:

Piranha strike is for light weapons. A rapier is not light despite being finessable.

You seem to have more feats than you know what to do with. I mean, taking weapon spec at level 12 - a +2 damage bonus shouldn't matter by then, unless you're stacking lots of small bonuses, which you're not. If you can use variant multiclassing from PF unchained as well as normal multiclassing you might consider VMC magus, which gets you a bunch of useful abilities including spellstrike at level 11, in exchange for your level 3, 7, 11, 15 & 19 feats.

Oh, but it can be :) (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/specific-magic-weapons/effortless-lace)

I give, you are entirely correct on me suffering from having no idea what feats to choose. I looked at weapon spec at L12 partially because "ooh, shiny fighter feat" - not much else. Though, I am planning on stacking up multiple boni, so I hope it should add up. Spellstrike is handy dandy and all that, but I'm not sure what I'd use it with other than Vampyric Touch or Frostbite or something like that. I'll definitely consider it.

Is there anything on the witch list that seems like it's worth going for spell perfection? I'm leaning towards Enervation, but I'm unsure.

Again, thank you all for replying. I really appreciate it.

Kurald Galain

2015-12-03, 09:23 AM

As for the accuracy fix, I'm not entirely convinced, however. It seems to me as if the Magi depend on boosting their BAB with enhancement bonuses to their weapons, which seems to me to be able to be replicated by either Greater Magic Weapon or just paying enough dosh at later levels. Sure, you'll be able to add plenty of special stuff to your weapon of choice, but.. unless you spam Arcane Accuracy or Accurate Strike, it seems like it'll be able to keep pace rather well?
Medium BAB plus the enchant weapon ability is effectively full BAB. This stacks with whatever magical weapon you're carrying and with the Greater Magic Weapon spell, just like for everybody else.

For instance, eldritch knight gets +15 to hit / +14 damage with Divine Favor, then Magus gets +15 to hit (15 BAB, -2 from spell combat, +2 from enchant weapon) and +14 damage (3d6 from enchant weapon, 1d3+1 from Ray of Frost), and that's before any buff spells, arcane accuracy, or novas yet. Oh, and he gets an extra attack.

But yeah, 9th level spells win the game at high levels, there's no arguing with that :smallamused:

Psyren

2015-12-03, 11:56 AM

Seconding the folks who say go Wizard or Arcanist rather than Witch for this. Witch does not PrC well if you can't advance the hexes, which only a handful of PrCs do (e.g. Winter Witch and Evangelist.) Witches also have very few spells/day since they're expected to have a bunch of hexes to fall back on as ammunition, which you won't.

The only Witch I'd personally consider for EK is White-Haired Witch, and even then I'd be giving up some hair length and other goodies like strangle and the rogue talents. (I think the BAB increase might be worth it though.)

Snowbluff

2015-12-03, 02:11 PM

Psyren

2015-12-03, 02:49 PM

Takes your swift action, too. For shame... :smallsigh:

It lasts 10 rounds though, so it's not like you don't get your swift action for the rest of the combat. It's also supernatural and therefore can't be dispelled.

Snowbluff

2015-12-03, 02:55 PM

It lasts 10 rounds though, so it's not like you don't get your swift action for the rest of the combat. It's also supernatural and therefore can't be dispelled.

I think 1>0. I might have to check my math, but that sounds like 1 less short buff for something you can have done out of combat. 0/10 wouldn't lie about again.

Psyren

2015-12-03, 03:06 PM

I think 1>0. I might have to check my math, but that sounds like 1 less short buff for something you can have done out of combat. 0/10 wouldn't lie about again.

Snark aside, GMW has weaknesses you're ignoring:

1) It doesn't beat any DR (except dr/magic), while the AP enhancement does.
2) It can be dispelled.
3) Once dispelled, reapplying it in combat is impractical (standard, provokes, concentration, V/S etc.)
4) Even if you don't need to recast it, it takes up a spell slot that you could have used to prep something more useful (Haste, Fly, FHC, PS, WW etc.)

Avoiding all that is easily worth 1 swift per encounter.

Snowbluff

2015-12-03, 03:42 PM

Snark aside, GMW has weaknesses you're ignoring:

1) It doesn't beat any DR (except dr/magic), while the AP enhancement does.
2) It can be dispelled.
3) Once dispelled, reapplying it in combat is impractical (standard, provokes, concentration, V/S etc.)
4) Even if you don't need to recast it, it takes up a spell slot that you could have used to prep something more useful (Haste, Fly, FHC, PS, WW etc.)

Avoiding all that is easily worth 1 swift per encounter.
1) Pointless. Put in your own work for getting around DR. We've been doing it for over a DECADE now.
2) How many casters do you actually meet in combat? How many dispel at all? How many stopped when it got nerfed in PF? How many actually target weapons (which is impractical for several reasons) when they do?
3) The idea could apply to the AP enhancement, except that it ALWAYS takes the action, as opposed to >1%. You don't have to make Concentration checks out of combat.
4) You're Arcana Points could be used for better things, like all touch attacks or an actually good bonus to hit. A third level slot for an hour/level buff is pretty much a pittance when it starts mattering.

Psyren

2015-12-03, 04:40 PM

1) Pointless. Put in your own work for getting around DR. We've been doing it for over a DECADE now.
2) How many casters do you actually meet in combat? How many dispel at all? How many stopped when it got nerfed in PF? How many actually target weapons (which is impractical for several reasons) when they do?
3) The idea could apply to the AP enhancement, except that it ALWAYS takes the action, as opposed to >1%. You don't have to make Concentration checks out of combat.
4) You're Arcana Points could be used for better things, like all touch attacks or an actually good bonus to hit. A third level slot for an hour/level buff is pretty much a pittance when it starts mattering.

1) If it's so easy and painless to do this way, what benefit do I have doing it another way? Saving a single swift? How exorbitant.
2) My GM does use these, but then, maybe he just likes having a plausible world that challenges spellcasters and doesn't think they should sleepwalk all over everything. YMMV of course.
3) Again, this assumes the ideal scenario where your buffs remain pristine and untouched in every fight.
4) You do realize you get the AP long before you get 3rd-level slots right? And even when you do get them, is spending one of your most powerful spell slots on a mere +3 or +4 to hit that doesn't stack with what's really the best use? You could be using them on all-day flight, pounce, battlefield control, utility shapeshifting and a number of other things besides a mere enhancement bonus, and that's before we get into metamagicked lower level spells.

Snowbluff

2015-12-03, 04:57 PM

2) My GM does use these, but then, maybe he just likes having a plausible world that challenges spellcasters and doesn't think they should sleepwalk all over everything. YMMV of course.

Wow. Wooooooooooooow. Dispel Magic is terrible unless you achieve better action economy than the spells used to place the effects. If you dispel a sword, you should just commit seppuku with your action instead. I can't even anymore. Even 3.5, where Counterspelling and Dispelling were better supported, it still sucked... but Pelor... Wooooooow. Are you sure he's challenging casters? Sounds more like he's just giving you a by. :smalltongue:

And if anyone's sleeping through a campaign, it's the fighters. At least casters work for their wins, dammit! :smallcool:

Psyren

2015-12-03, 05:14 PM

Wow. Wooooooooooooow. Dispel Magic is terrible unless you achieve better action economy than the spells used to place the effects. If you dispel a sword, you should just commit seppuku with your action instead. I can't even anymore. Even 3.5, where Counterspelling and Dispelling were better supported, it still sucked... but Pelor... Wooooooow. Are you sure he's challenging casters? Sounds more like he's just giving you a by. :smalltongue:

Area dispels are a thing that exist (no need to "dispel swords") but judging by this post I guess your GM doesn't know about them :smalltongue:

And yes, if your gishes are relying on a lone instance of a morning buff as a crutch then knocking that crutch out from under your armpit is indeed a quick and easy way to increase the challenge.

Snowbluff

2015-12-03, 05:41 PM

Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.
Nah, looks like you would need to target the weapon specifically. I thought it would work, too. :l

And yes, if your gishes are relying on a lone instance of a morning buff as a crutch then knocking that crutch out from under your armpit is indeed a quick and easy way to increase the challenge.

You mean to say "you put effort and thought in how to prepare for a day, so being more powerful isn't okay." :smalltongue:

Honestly, the biggest problem proper Gish have is AC. Armored Mage isn't really a thing in PF. Need to research better options.

Psyren

2015-12-03, 05:48 PM

Nah, looks like you would need to target the weapon specifically. I thought it would work, too. :l

That rule is for dispelling an actual +X magic sword. Not a sword with a free-standing GMW buff on it. Come on mang, D&D 101.

You mean to say "you put effort and thought in how to prepare for a day, so being more powerful isn't okay." :smalltongue:

So because you prepared for something, the GM is forbidden from countering it? Even in a world where enemy spellcasters know that magic buffs exist and can cause them problems if left alone? Where many monsters and nearly every class gets dispel magic as a spell or SLA? Doesn't that strike you as boring?

Honestly, the biggest problem proper Gish have is AC. Armored Mage isn't really a thing in PF. Need to research better options.

Magi can cast in heavy armor just fine.

Kurald Galain

2015-12-03, 05:52 PM

Well, the OP mentioned wanting to be effective at low level. You can have arcane pool enchant up every combat at level one. Greater Magic Weapon doesn't become an effective choice until level twelve. So, yeah. I'm pretty sure that 12 is greater than 1 :smallbiggrin:

Snowbluff

2015-12-03, 06:12 PM

That rule is for dispelling an actual +X magic sword. Not a sword with a free-standing GMW buff on it. Come on mang, D&D 101.
It's quite clear how it works RAW. If a weapon is magic, it can be affected by Area Dispels.

So because you prepared for something, the GM is forbidden from countering it? Even in a world where enemy spellcasters know that magic buffs exist and can cause them problems if left alone? Where many monsters and nearly every class gets dispel magic as a spell or SLA? Doesn't that strike you as boring?
It's a response to your "casters sleeping through everything" statement, which is inherently an oxymoron.

Magi can cast in heavy armor just fine.
Ain't proper gish.

Well, the OP mentioned wanting to be effective at low level. You can have arcane pool enchant up every combat at level one. Greater Magic Weapon doesn't become an effective choice until level twelve. So, yeah. I'm pretty sure that 12 is greater than 1 :smallbiggrin:
It's not what you say in the first place. You said it's "effectively full BAB," which was shown to be inaccurate on multiple levels (the levels of thinking, not stairs or character levels).

Psyren

2015-12-03, 06:25 PM

It's quite clear how it works RAW. If a weapon is magic, it can be affected by Area Dispels.

But you're not affecting the item. You're affecting the spell itself, that has merely targeted the item. It's no different than dispelling Darkness.

Actual magic items are not affected because there is no spell there to affect, but a GMW is vulnerable.

It's a response to your "casters sleeping through everything" statement, which is inherently an oxymoron.

So, "waking up in the morning, buffing and then sleeping through everything?" :smalltongue:

Ain't proper gish.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Snowbluff

2015-12-03, 06:43 PM

But you're not affecting the item. You're affecting the spell itself, that has merely targeted the item. It's no different than dispelling Darkness.

Actual magic items are not affected because there is no spell there to affect, but a GMW is vulnerable.
But if the GMW is targeted, the weapon is a subject, and if the GMW is dispelled, the weapon has been affected.

So, "waking up in the morning, buffing and then sleeping through everything?" :smalltongue:
Yus. :smalltongue:

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Fallacy fallacy. Gish build guidelines are widely accepted to be 16 BAB/9 level spells by 20, and the title is a callback to a multiclassed character. Magus's designation is clearly "gish in a can."

Psyren

2015-12-03, 07:55 PM

But if the GMW is targeted, the weapon is a subject, and if the GMW is dispelled, the weapon has been affected.

How so? It's still there. It's the separate spell that was affected, not the item.

Yus. :smalltongue:

Right, boring, like I said.

Gish build guidelines are widely accepted to be 16 BAB/9 level spells by 20

Do you have a source for this poll? Because I've seen Duskblade and Psychic Warrior referred to as gishes quite often.

Snowbluff

2015-12-03, 08:20 PM

How so? It's still there. It's the separate spell that was affected, not the item.
Something changes about the item when the spell is dispelled.

Right, boring, like I said.
It's just as valid, nay, more valid than "do nothing, walk through everything." :smalltongue:

Do you have a source for this poll? Because I've seen Duskblade and Psychic Warrior referred to as gishes quite often.

"Gish in a Can." Distinguishing between proper and canned fishes gishes is an appropriate distinction, especially for how it was used in context. Calling "No True Scotsman" here is like using it when I am saying a dog is not a cat.

Psyren

2015-12-03, 09:17 PM

Something changes about the item when the spell is dispelled.

Right, because the spell ended. Not because of the dispel affected the item itself. It's no different than if your GMW had worn off normally.

"Gish in a Can." Distinguishing between proper and canned fishes gishes is an appropriate distinction, especially for how it was used in context. Calling "No True Scotsman" here is like using it when I am saying a dog is not a cat.

It's more like you're saying a beagle is not a dog. A gish-in-a-can is a type of gish. You have yet to produce a definition that says "it it's not 16 BAB and 9th-level spells it's not a gish," but I can certainly pull up plenty of posts where Duskblades and Psywars are referred to as gishes, and Magi too. The community defines terms, not you.

Snowbluff

2015-12-03, 10:27 PM

Right, because the spell ended. Not because of the dispel affected the item itself. It's no different than if your GMW had worn off normally.
The rules text doesn't make that distinction.

It's more like you're saying a beagle is not a dog. A gish-in-a-can is a type of gish. You have yet to produce a definition that says "it it's not 16 BAB and 9th-level spells it's not a gish," but I can certainly pull up plenty of posts where Duskblades and Psywars are referred to as gishes, and Magi too. The community defines terms, not you.
Gish handbook.

The "standard" CO gish benchmark is +16 BAB and 9th level spells, and no base class in the game gives this natively.

If you want to get anal (and useless and semantic and waste a lot of time) the 1981 Fiend Folio, from which the term was coined for specialized Fighter/Mage and Fighter/Rogue. A modern source would be the MM IV for 3.5. You have to have fighter and wizard levels, making me right for the incredibly interesting and functional discussion of "how should I armor my Wizard/Fighter/EK in PF," which would actually help the OP. If if you wouldn't insist on it having to being a githyanki, the question stands.

Psyren

2015-12-04, 01:04 AM

The rules text doesn't make that distinction.

Doesn't have to. You're dispelling a spell (GMW), not a magic item, thus area dispel works.

Gish handbook.

You mean the same handbook that lists Duskblade, Psywar, Divine Bard, and even Warblade? That one?

If you want to get anal (and useless and semantic and waste a lot of time) the 1981 Fiend Folio, from which the term was coined for specialized Fighter/Mage and Fighter/Rogue. A modern source would be the MM IV for 3.5. You have to have fighter and wizard levels, making me right for the incredibly interesting and functional discussion of "how should I armor my Wizard/Fighter/EK in PF," which would actually help the OP. If if you wouldn't insist on it having to being a githyanki, the question stands.

You started this tangent by complaining in bold about spending 1 swift action per encounter. I actually agreed with the Arcanist suggestion.

Snowbluff

2015-12-04, 01:09 AM

Doesn't have to. You're dispelling a spell (GMW), not a magic item, thus area dispel works.
But you can't do that, because it would affect the weapon. That's the problem. If it said "It can't affect Creatures," you wouldn't be able to dispel the effect on creature. They can't be a target, so they can't be a subject.

You mean the same handbook that lists Duskblade, Psywar, Divine Bard, and even Warblade? That one?
Yeah, the one that lists that they don't meet the criteria.

You started this tangent by whining (in bold) about spending 1 swift action per encounter. I actually agreed with the Arcanist suggestion.
But we need armor options for the BA!
http://33.media.tumblr.com/fbff332e20b2514a59c4290c389e1249/tumblr_inline_nmj54906kA1shgy82_500.gif

Actually, do people use that archetype often? No one talks about around here. I wonder if any builds exist...

Psyren

2015-12-04, 01:26 AM

Edited my last post.

But you can't do that, because it would affect the weapon. That's the problem. If it said "It can't affect Creatures," you wouldn't be able to dispel the effect on creature. They can't be a target, so they can't be a subject.

The buff ending is what does that, not the dispel itself.

You have a magic sword A. You then cast GMW on it.
A dispel (either type) happens, and the GMW goes away.
Is the sword still a magic item, A? Of course it is. It wasn't affected by the dispel.

We're unlikely to agree on this I think.

Yeah, the one that lists that they don't meet the criteria.

It rates Duskblade blue. Also: "Broadly speaking, a gish can be a combination of any mundane concept and any spellcaster concept." Seems you didn't go down far enough.

Kurald Galain

2015-12-04, 05:28 AM

Just to give an example of how ridiculous Snowbluff's assertion is that his personal opinion is "widely accepted",

If being able to cast and fight makes you a gish, then nearly all classes should be counted towards being this, making the distinction somewhat meaningless.

I propose looking at the economy of actions. If a class can do both things at the same time, them it should be counted as a gish in PF.

That'll leave Magus, Warpriest and Bloodrager.

:smallbiggrin:

Florian

2015-12-04, 05:35 AM

*Yawn*

Back to topic.

I agree that witch doesn't gish well, even with the scared witch archetype, shifting casting stat over to con. It would be a reasonable choice for a low PB game, as you don't go mad. Problem I see with this, is that even for a full spellcaster, the witch spell list is just so-so and some of the better spells come from the patron, which doesn't scale with the EK.

Kurald Galain

2015-12-04, 05:41 AM

I agree that witch doesn't gish well, even with the scared witch archetype, shifting casting stat over to con. It would be a reasonable choice for a low PB game, as you don't go mad. Problem I see with this, is that even for a full spellcaster, the witch spell list is just so-so and some of the better spells come from the patron, which doesn't scale with the EK.

Yes. I think the best bet for a witch would be to capitalize on the White Haired archetype (which doesn't scale either, but four levels of witch get you most of its abilities).

Florian

2015-12-04, 06:08 AM

Regarding the EK, right now, with a long game in mind, I would favour Fighter/Sorcerer again, with the Unbreakeabke archtype on the Fighter and the Psychic bloodline on the sorcerer. Class spread would be 1/9 before entering EK.
Yes, that is very late, but keep two things in mind: You will want to have access to auto-scaling spells known and you are not reliant on Dex anymore, so a decent Cha > Str > Con build is feasible.

Mindtour

2015-12-04, 09:14 AM

Off-topic, I know, but let's also keep in mind that Scarred Witch Doctor is no longer a Constitution based caster. It just gets an effective +2 Intelligence.

Psyren

2015-12-04, 09:29 AM

Yes. I think the best bet for a witch would be to capitalize on the White Haired archetype (which doesn't scale either, but four levels of witch get you most of its abilities).

WHW into Eldritch Knight is actually something I'd be interested in trying out. The BAB deficiency was its main weakness and this seems to help with that a lot. The only downside is that you're stuck with 10-15ft. hair instead of 30, and that you miss out on Strangle. (You miss Pull too but I don't really see the point of that ability.)

You also qualify for fighter-only feats. Imagine being able to Spellcut and Spellbreaker with your hair :smallbiggrin:

Florian

2015-12-04, 09:48 AM

@Psyren:

Seen that in actual play and it was rather mediocre. Good idea, great dlavour, but lacking in execution, at least back then.

Kurald Galain

2015-12-04, 10:05 AM

Seen that in actual play and it was rather mediocre. Good idea, great dlavour, but lacking in execution, at least back then.

I'd be interested in hearing why. Lack of accuracy? Lack of damage? Lack of options? Something else?

Psyren

2015-12-04, 10:12 AM

@Psyren:

Seen that in actual play and it was rather mediocre. Good idea, great dlavour, but lacking in execution, at least back then.

Did they try this build?

Fighter 1/WHW 5/EK 10/Evangelist 4

Casts as Witch 17 (9ths)
Hair as Witch 8 (All abilities, i.e. Strangle, and 15ft. base reach)
BAB +16 - this is less important unless you plan to use weapon attacks but it's a nice milestone to hit.

Your patrons (deity and witch) don't really matter, though Gorum is nice for his 1/day GMW, which you can cast in the morning and save a bit of cash on a manufactured weapon that way.

Florian

2015-12-04, 10:14 AM

I'd be interested in hearing why. Lack of accuracy? Lack of damage? Lack of options? Something else?

Please note that this was when Dragon Empires was new and I gm'ed Jade Regent. A lot has changed since then.

Problem back then was a mix of accuracy and damage, as well as combat feats relying on a very different ability score spread than a witch normaly has, making the class MAD.
Combine this with the fact that the hair couldn't keep up with spells after a certain level and you're set, invested in the wrong track.

Now, there're some bery interresting thing to be done with VMC here, so you can really profit from it.

Second Arrow

2015-12-04, 02:26 PM

I swear, I leave for a day and now I'm apprehensive of posting in my own thread, due to how massive it got overnight. April must've come early.

Might as well let it be an Eldritch Knight-how-to 2015 thread, I suppose :smalltongue:

The consensus seems to be that Witch is not the best way of going EK, due to how limited its spell list already is, and due to Hexes / Patron spells not scaling. Am I correct? I'm still somewhat worried about accuracy defunctions, but.. I guess if you're swinging your sword at level 20, it's more of a "I do this because I can", rather than "THIS IS ALL I CAN DO"?

So, other potential options:
#1: Swash 1 / Wizard (Conjuration -> Extradimension + Teleportation) 6 / EK 10 / Spherewalker 3
#2: Swash 1 / Wizard (Divination -> Foresight) 5 / EK 10 / Wiz 1 / Spherewalker 3
#3: Swash 1 / Wizard (Transmutation) 5 / EK 10 / Wiz 1 / Spherewalker 3
#4: Urban Bloodrager 1 / Blade Adept Arcanist 6 / EK 10 / Hellknight Signifier 3 <-
#5: Blood Arcanist (Psychic Bloodline) 6 + VMC Oracle / EK 10 / Spherewalker 4 <- does this actually work?
#6: Martial Class 1 / White-Haired Witch 5 / EK 10 / Evangelist 4

#1 looks really fun, in the sense that you could always teleport out of someone's face after attacking, and you could always try to parry their singular attack - defense be damned.
#4 is sort of curious, as it seems like you could progress the Bloodrage abilities with the Bloodline Development exploit - which both seems neat as well as semi-useless, since you end up with an effective Bloodrager level of 7, one short of the level 8 powers. But hey, free scaling magical sword!
#5 would solve most defense problems - but can you actually enter EK as is?

Snowbluff

2015-12-04, 02:35 PM

I don't think Transmutation Wizard's features hold up as well as Foresight's.

I think the Swashbuckler entry worked out fine.

Psyren

2015-12-04, 02:41 PM

Please note that this was when Dragon Empires was new and I gm'ed Jade Regent. A lot has changed since then.

Problem back then was a mix of accuracy and damage, as well as combat feats relying on a very different ability score spread than a witch normaly has, making the class MAD.
Combine this with the fact that the hair couldn't keep up with spells after a certain level and you're set, invested in the wrong track.

Now, there're some bery interresting thing to be done with VMC here, so you can really profit from it.

But the point of the hair isn't to "keep up with your spells." It's to be your backup method of attacking, and also a way to deliver said spells safely. It gives you something to fall back on when your spells run out, or you have the wrong ones prepped. For example, if all you have left are enchantments and a skeleton shows up, you can combat it with your coif instead. Or you can prepare more utility/BFC spells, and still have a way to safely finish the bads off without needing a fighter handy or putting yourself at risk with a weapon. And you can make it pretty strong without sacrificing your role as primary caster, since it attacks and constricts with Int rather than Str.

If you boost the BAB with EK it actually gets fairly competitive (you can actually come out slightly ahead of a 3/4 BAB build), plus you get free combat feats to help your grappling.