The Tank : Optimization Challenge

[AMFV]

We had a recent thread where somebody discussed tanking, and a truly terrible Flesh Golem. It seems that the general consensus is that this is impossible (certainly with the Monk Flesh Golem's build it was). But we're the Playground! We try to murdur unmurderable peasants and have tried to make viable builds using the Duellist prestige class.

So the goal here is to create a character that can tank in the MMORPG sense, ergo convince enemies to focus on them, and survive the resulting attacks. I'd like to see what people come up with, because after all we certainly can do better than declaring it impossible.

[OldTrees1]

Well, any good aggro should work against many opponents and against many attacks per round.
Likewise, good aggro should have passive solutions for when foes resist active solutions.

Passive:
Devoted Defender 1 (1 ally cannot be attacked) Cost: 1 level, Weapon Focus, Alterness
Friend Shield Ring (Shield Other 1 ally) Cost: 50K gp and 1 ring slot on each

Active:
Knight 4 Test of Mettle (AoE CR limited Taunt) Cost: 4 levels

[AMFV]

Well, any good aggro should work against many opponents and against many attacks per round.
Likewise, good aggro should have passive solutions for when foes resist active solutions.

Passive:
Devoted Defender 1 (1 ally cannot be attacked) Cost: 1 level, Weapon Focus, Alterness
Friend Shield Ring (Shield Other 1 ally) Cost: 50K gp and 1 ring slot on each

Active:
Knight 4 Test of Mettle (AoE CR limited Taunt) Cost: 4 levels

This is true. We could also focus on the fact that tanks in MMORPGs tend to be more focused on defense than offense. And put some things into lower BAB things. The Divine Prankster has a pretty good method for gaining aggro, at least on three targets. Would we be able to combine that with these things? Also we might want to focus on something with spellcasting, I mean Suggestion "Attack Me" is likely to have a fairly high chance of succeeding, so some way that could work. We could alternatively use illusions to make our allies look less appetizing.

I'm really interested to see what people come up with for this.

[OldTrees1]

Divine Prankster costs about as much as Test of Mettle but only hits 3 targets, requires concentration, is a Standard action, and provides less per day. So it would be a good backup for a divine gnome build(where 5 levels of PrC is cheaper than 4 levels of Knight).

Also we should consider if we want to build focused on strong(no save) or soft(save vs aggro) aggro (although having a bit of the other is smart).


Bodyguard(Martial, Strong Aggro build)
Dragonborn Goliath Goliath Barbarian 1 / Knight 4 / Devoted Defender 2

[AMFV]

Divine Prankster costs about as much as Test of Mettle but only hits 3 targets, requires concentration, is a Standard action, and provides less per day. So it would be a good backup for a divine gnome build(where 5 levels of PrC is cheaper than 4 levels of Knight).

Also we should consider if we want to build focused on strong(no save) or soft(save vs aggro) aggro (although having a bit of the other is smart).


Bodyguard(Martial, Strong Aggro build)
Dragonborn Goliath Goliath Barbarian 1 / Knight 4 / Devoted Defender 2

True, and the requiring concentration is pretty painful. The effects it has are pretty effective though. Test of Mettle is also pretty good, although it does allow enemies to do things that hit your allies as well as you, which is pretty painful, or potentially very difficult.

We can also consider some alternative forms of aggro:

Illusions: The tank could make his allies appear less interesting, or make them appear like enemies, or invisible. Of course this only works briefly, but is certainly a possibility. Possibly making himself appear more threatening or more worth targeting.

Directly blocking attacks: This is a pretty tried and true method, something like a Duskblade into Initiate of Sevenfold Veils (it is possible, I actually played with that idea for a bit), who could create places where enemies could not target to funnel them back to attacking him, it's more of a battlefield control based approach, but is certainly an interesting one.

Enchantment: Some way of getting suggestion or mass suggestion to use as a taunt. Attack me is certainly a worthwhile option for that, and a spellcaster built around a specific set of spells could be pretty effective with it, even with it being a level 1 spell. Command I believe, has the same effect, we could certainly look into making those more effective.

And then we have

Test of Mettle/Knight

Iron Guard's Glare

Both of those are useful, but one can be ignored (at a penalty), and one doesn't affect a lot (although that's a problem with some of my options as well).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Include the Dragonborn of Bahamut template with the heart aspect for a breath weapon, and get the feat Entangling Exhalation, both of which are in Races of the Dragon. You can now spam an AoE debuff that slows opponents' movement and deals damage over time to them, which has a twofold effect: They're now extremely less likely to reposition to gain an advantage or to be able to rush past the tank and hit softer targets, and you're dealing constant damage to them and hindering their victory which presents your character as a credible threat. The goal of getting opponents to attack you is thus an enormous success.

Possibly include the Mineral Warrior (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) template if you can buy off the +1 LA (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm). This gives you DR 8/Adamantine, +3 natural armor, a burrow speed, and decent bonuses to Str and Con. It's an acquired template, so you can gain it after Dragonborn and you won't lose any of the benefits it grants. Ideally put both on a Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), which loses its race of water traits and orc traits but keeps its ability score adjustments and swim speed when Dragonborn is applied. This gives you a +1 LA creature with Str +6, Dex -2, Con +8, Int -4, Wis -4, Cha -4, +3 natural armor, DR 8/Adamantine, 30 ft. land and swim speeds, 15 ft. burrow speed, and the above entangling breath attack.

This is already extremely good at tanking without even taking any class levels! I would make this character a Crusader with Stand-Still, and get Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades. This adds even more durability, heavy armor proficiency, superb offensive choices, and plenty of healing for whoever needs it. It's perfectly fine as a single-classed character, but consider the Crusader 5/ Binder 1/ Hellreaver 5/ Crusader 9 build, which gets fast ability healing from Binder and can heal 20 hp as a swift action nearly every round from Hellreaver, in addition to getting 9th level maneuvers and stances.

Edit: The best part about this is that it's viably playable from 1st level!

[MisterKaws]

You could always go psionics, use the astral construct power armor trick for the meat shield's stats, manifest something that drags them close to you(a lot of that in psionics), then just do psychotic break.

[Uncle Pine]

I mean Suggestion "Attack Me" is likely to have a fairly high chance of succeeding, so some way that could work.
Suggestion is a 3rd level spell, so you can apply a lesser metamagic rod of chain spell to it at low levels without even resorting to Sanctum Spell cheese or metamagic reducers abuse. This nabs you a taunt that affects 1+CL opponents, although with reduced DC on secondary targets. You can then play around and try to pass your suggestion as "very reasonable" (to impose a penalty on your targets' saves), but be wary because some DMs could broadly interpret the "Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell" clause so that asking someone to attack you instead of the ubercharger who's dishing out hundreds of damage is considered an obviously (if indirect) harmful act. However, do note that this isn't RAW nor RAI, as other Enchantment spells lists "jump in that pool of acid, it's just fresh water" or "hold Ashardalon for a minute while we flee, we'll bring reinforcements" as perfectly valid non-suicidal orders for a charmed/dominated creature.

EDIT: Also note that with Suggestion you're not limited to drawing aggro on yourself. "Your commander deceived you and is actually planning to kill your grandma in her sleep" or "attack my wounded Crusader ally, he's vulnerable" also work.

[AMFV]

Suggestion is a 3rd level spell, so you can apply a lesser metamagic rod of chain spell to it at low levels without even resorting to Sanctum Spell cheese or metamagic reducers abuse. This nabs you a taunt that affects 1+CL opponents, although with reduced DC on secondary targets. You can then play around and try to pass your suggestion as "very reasonable" (to impose a penalty on your targets' saves), but be wary because some DMs could broadly interpret the "Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell" clause so that asking someone to attack you instead of the ubercharger who's dishing out hundreds of damage is considered an obviously (if indirect) harmful act. However, do note that this isn't RAW nor RAI, as other Enchantment spells lists "jump in that pool of acid, it's just fresh water" or "hold Ashardalon for a minute while we flee, we'll bring reinforcements" as perfectly valid non-suicidal orders for a charmed/dominated creature.

EDIT: Also note that with Suggestion you're not limited to drawing aggro on yourself. "Your commander deceived you and is actually planning to kill your grandma in her sleep" or "attack my wounded Crusader ally, he's vulnerable" also work.

I was thinking something along the lines of: "I'm the most serious threat here, so you should focus on me" Which I think should be very reasonable (after all the tank just cast a spell on them successfully)

[Talionis]

Crusader for even a couple levels helps, Thicket of Blades Stance... There are several Divine Spirit and White Raven maneuvers that can penalize opponents for not attacking them. Devoted Spirit has several healing maneuvers that would help you keep attacking but also heal yourself...

But one of the coolest things that would be easy to miss is the Devoted Spirit Tactical Feat, Fath Unswerving. The second and third options are ver relevant. Second one allows you to jump in front of an attack meant for an ally, the last lets you attack one more time if dying which for someone with Devoted Spirit means plenty of time to heal yourself.

[ILM]

Divine Prankster costs about as much as Test of Mettle but only hits 3 targets, requires concentration, is a Standard action, and provides less per day. So it would be a good backup for a divine gnome build(where 5 levels of PrC is cheaper than 4 levels of Knight).

True, but on the other hand: pretty much no-save, no CR limit, and if you can get your DM to consider it a bardic music effect, a Harmonizing weapon takes care of the concentration aspect.

[Uncle Pine]

I was thinking something along the lines of: "I'm the most serious threat here, so you should focus on me" Which I think should be very reasonable (after all the tank just cast a spell on them successfully)
Whether or not you'll be able to convince the DM to apply the penalty may vary, but yes Suggestion is a viable strategy against enemies not immune to mind-affecting spells: you can draw aggro ("Attack me!"), reduce aggro ("Don't attack me!"), redirect aggro ("Attack that other guy!") or even cancel aggro altogether ("Fly, you fools!").

EDIT: Since many enemies immune to mind-affecting spells are also mindless (mindless undeads, vermins, constructs) and to cast Suggestion you have to be a spellcaster of some sort, you can use illusions to keep those at bay.

[Sian]

I think the default 'tank' character is somewhere among the lines of Knight 4 /Crusader 16, where you convince your DM that Test of Mettle is a CharLvl check instead of ClassLvl check.

But i'll join those suggesting Dragonfire Adept, as between Slow Breath, Sickening Breath and Entangling Exhalation, you have quite a nice little Battlefield control package ... add to that if you fit some Binder into the mix (maybe with some Anima Mage for pumping both) and grab Dahlvar-Nar as your vestige of choice, giving you even more Natural Armor AC (on top of 'Scales' from DFA, due to it being an enchancement bonus to Natural Armor), and Shield Self, which you can either use to send parts of the damage back to the backline where a healer can selfheal it in relative safety, or to your opponent.

Dragonfire Adept makes sure that your opponents won't get in reach of your friends. Binder makes sure that you survive them taking out their aggessions on you.

[Platymus Pus]

Get you cha down to zero, start making diplomacy checks and failing them.

[Uncle Pine]

Get you cha down to zero
Tree powers, activate!

[Vhaidara]

So the goal here is to create a character that can tank in the MMORPG sense, ergo convince enemies to focus on them, and survive the resulting attacks. I'd like to see what people come up with, because after all we certainly can do better than declaring it impossible.

I think it should also be noted that if we are going for an MMO style tank, we also need to be armored (usually heavily), and, most importantly: NOT a mage. MMO tanks fight dominantly through martial skill, sometimes supplemented by magic (usually the Paladin or his analogues). But he is, first and foremost, a warrior.

[AMFV]

I think it should also be noted that if we are going for an MMO style tank, we also need to be armored (usually heavily), and, most importantly: NOT a mage. MMO tanks fight dominantly through martial skill, sometimes supplemented by magic (usually the Paladin or his analogues). But he is, first and foremost, a warrior.

Not always, many games have blink or evasion tanks. Just not the biggest one.

[Ellowryn]

If you are talking about giving opponents a reason to attack you then the DSP Warder from Pathfinder has the rather good Armiger's Mark mechanic. Giving any enemy you strike (or later on multiple enemies that fail a save) a scaling penalty to attack and ASF chance is a strong way to try and force you to get attacked. Of course at very high levels even a -10 to hit isn't much, but for most other levels its fine.

[Uncle Pine]

I think it should also be noted that if we are going for an MMO style tank, we also need to be armored (usually heavily), and, most importantly: NOT a mage. MMO tanks fight dominantly through martial skill, sometimes supplemented by magic (usually the Paladin or his analogues). But he is, first and foremost, a warrior.
If we're talking about WoW, yes. However, while being one of the most prominent examples, that's not the only MMO with tanks: in GW2, for example, you can build a tank using any base class regardless of the armor you don.

[Red Fel]

Not always, many games have blink or evasion tanks. Just not the biggest one.

This. FF Online, for example, had Ninja that could blink-tank; as long as they kept up their ability to evade attacks, and kept topping off damage, and as long as the rest of the party was careful to manage aggro, the Ninja could take a lot of abuse.

The thing to remember, though, is that MMO tanking is based on numbers and algorithms. A Taunt command, unless resisted, automatically redirects the assault. An aggro bar tells the AI what it must attack. A list of priorities (such as "If a target is standing on the red square, he becomes the primary target") determine priorities. And so on.

TTRPGs are not like that. Unless your DM plays monsters as automatons, they will eventually consider their options. And if your game allows PvP, it's very dangerous to tell players, "No, you're not allowed to do what you wanted, you have to do this instead."

I'm with those who promote Crusader. My favorite method involves Thicket of Blades, of course, along with a combination of feats and maneuvers that turn you into a lockdown engine. With Stand Still or Knock Down, you can freeze enemy movement or knock them prone. With Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike, you can encourage attacks against you, and retaliate with an AoO which may trigger Knock Down. With Thicket of Blades, you can discourage attacks on your allies, as these trigger an AoO which may trigger Knock Down. With Defensive Rebuke, if they attack your allies anyway, you get an AoO, which may - you guessed it - trigger Knock Down. The list goes on.

If PF is on the table, the PoW Warder is even more obscene. Go read a handbook, I can't even begin to do it justice.

I don't generally encourage Knight abilities, because there are too many caveats and the class punishes multiclassing. And the fact is that anything your melee tank can do, your Tier 1 caster can by definition do better. As a fire giant or cryohydra, no less.

[Elricaltovilla]

If you are talking about giving opponents a reason to attack you then the DSP Warder from Pathfinder has the rather good Armiger's Mark mechanic. Giving any enemy you strike (or later on multiple enemies that fail a save) a scaling penalty to attack and ASF chance is a strong way to try and force you to get attacked. Of course at very high levels even a -10 to hit isn't much, but for most other levels its fine.

If I could expand on this, there are actually multiple options for tanking in Path of War, especially once you get Path of War: Expanded added to the mix.

There are two tanking specific disciplines (with additional helpful maneuvers scattered about elsewhere) Eternal Guardian (Path of War: Expanded) and Iron Tortoise (Path of War).

Iron Tortoise has a number of aggro drawing maneuvers, some of which add penalties like the Armiger's Mark does (and stack with it) and one or two hard aggro pulls (Save or be forced to attack the initiator). In addition, Iron Tortoise is counter heavy, with a lot of ways to reduce incoming damage and reflect, negate or deflect spells that target you or even your allies.

Eternal Guardian is more about control, with curse effects that limit enemy options and several maneuvers that set up zones in which you teleport around smacking people who ignore you with Attacks of Opportunity.


In addition to Armiger's Mark, which has an AoE upgrade at 8th level, the Warder also has the Defensive Focus ability, which sets up a growing "Zone of Nope" that the warder can move around in to smack enemies that try to get past her. This zone also becomes difficult terrain at 10th level, hampering enemy movement even further.

Warders can initiate multiple counters per round to draw fire or negate attacks against them and their allies and are heavily armed and armored with good Fortitude and Will saves, Full BAB and a d12 hit die.

The warder is very good at proving themselves a threatening and frustrating target, making them a great option for tanking.



From Path of War: Expanded, the Zealot is a pseudo-psionic initiator. They can bind their allies into a collective, and spend power points to do things like reduce incoming damage, take damage on behalf of their allies, negate harmful conditions or create barriers to protect allies and control the battlefield.

The zealot also has a subfocus on the Aid Another action. Normally not that great, the zealot increases the AC or attack bonus provided by Aid Another and adds extra effects on top of it, making it a viable action to protect allies.

One of the benefits of the zealot's setup is that positioning is less important, because most of their tanking features can be activated through the collective, which doesn't care about range or line of sight.

The zealot also has a similar chassis to the Warder, with only slightly less hit points (d10) to really worry about.



Knight Disciple is the initiating archetype for the Paladin base class, and is quite solid as a tank as well. Instead of hard aggro drawing effects (although it has those, thanks to Iron Tortoise), the Knight Disciple can grant allies a shield of temporary hit points that also prevents conditions from affecting allies. Instead of Smite Evil, they can Censure enemies, straight up reducing the damage they deal to the Knight Disciple's allies. The Knight Disciple's maneuver recovery gives allies bonuses to Saves and AC, making them a much less desirable target than the Knight Disciple.

The Knight Disciple is also a potent combat healer, thanks to the Silver Crane and a class feature that increases the healing they do with maneuvers. This works in their favor as a tank by helping them take more damage than normal and remove damage that enemies deal to the Knight Disciple's allies.

Other class features help the Knight Disciple move allies around, or move to allies, make them better at dealing with traditional Paladin enemies (Evil Outsiders and Undead), or give them some utility through spell completion items like wands and scrolls.



The Monk archetype from Path of War: Expanded is another good tanking option, specialized more in protecting one or two allies at a time. It comes with both Iron Tortoise and Eternal Guardian standard, as well as being able to use gauntlets as both weapons (with scaling damage) and shields (without interfering with the monk's normal AC bonuses).

The Monk of the Silver Fist's bonus feats include things like Bodyguard (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/bodyguard-combat), and In Harm's Way (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/in-harm-s-way-combat) for tanking, as well as Defensive Expertise (Path of War) to improve the Monk's own defenses.

The monk's Mark of the Silver Fist improves an ally's AC and causes enemies that attack the marked ally to provoke attacks of opportunity from the Monk. Higher level Monks can also directly intercept attacks made against allies from across the battlefield by spending a Ki Point.


So yeah, Pathfinder has a lot of great 3rd party options for tanking.

[ShurikVch]

Also:

Jester (Dragon Compendium) - Jester's Performance: Taunt

Mindless Rage spell (Spell Compendium)

[Red Fel]

If I could expand on this, there are actually multiple options for tanking in Path of War, especially once you get Path of War: Expanded added to the mix.

*SNIP*

So yeah, Pathfinder has a lot of great 3rd party options for tanking.

See, this touches on another point. Tanking isn't just mechanical, although obviously, if you lack mechanics, you're pretty much finished. Tanking is also a bit fluffy - it's about being a credible threat. Initiators can do that; in addition to their abilities to soak or prevent damage to themselves or others, they can dish it. This prevents enemies from trying to ignore them, not only because the initiator can disrupt their attacks, but because the initiator is dangerous. And PoW does an even better job of it than ToB did.

This is an advantage that many other options, such as the Knight, generally lack. Even assuming their mechanics allow them to taunt, there is nothing that makes an enemy think, "This one is dangerous and needs to be dealt with." At best, they think, "Ugh, again? Fine, but then I'm going back to hitting the Wizard in the face with his own stick."

[Telonius]

The old Saint Bertold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=5998772&postcount=2) build was centered around the idea of an Apostle of Peace drawing aggro through Test of Mettle. So you get them to attack you, but then they have to make a save to actually swing at you. Your AC is bumped relatively high from the Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace; Peace gives a net +6 on top of the Vow of Poverty bonuses. You also might get higher AC from your Apostle of Peace spells, and more if you've got a level in Monk for Wis to AC. So there's a decent chance they'll miss. Then if they actually do hit you, another save or their weapon is destroyed.

[Essence_of_War]

I'm with those who promote Crusader. My favorite method involves Thicket of Blades, of course, along with a combination of feats and maneuvers that turn you into a lockdown engine. With Stand Still or Knock Down, you can freeze enemy movement or knock them prone. With Robilar's Gambit or Karmic Strike, you can encourage attacks against you, and retaliate with an AoO which may trigger Knock Down. With Thicket of Blades, you can discourage attacks on your allies, as these trigger an AoO which may trigger Knock Down. With Defensive Rebuke, if they attack your allies anyway, you get an AoO, which may - you guessed it - trigger Knock Down. The list goes on.


And don't forget Defensive Sweep! If they move out of my thicket, they provoke an AoO, and get Knock-Down. If they DON'T move out of my thicket, they provoke an AoO, and *SURPRISE* get Knock-Down :)

[Elricaltovilla]

See, this touches on another point. Tanking isn't just mechanical, although obviously, if you lack mechanics, you're pretty much finished. Tanking is also a bit fluffy - it's about being a credible threat.

Honestly, it's the fluff aspect of Tanking that's always held an appeal to me. I like playing tough characters that draw a lot of attention on the battlefield, hardened warriors that can dish it out and take it in equal measure. It's a lot of fun to play once you get it going.

[ShurikVch]

If DM allow to use infamous Flaws for Commoners, then Delicious flaw will cause monsters to attack you no matter what;
Also, if you take Weresheep flaw, you will gain effect of the Delicious flaw in your hybrid and animal form (along with secondary bite attack, +2 Dex & Con, and DR 5/silver)


Honestly, it's the fluff aspect of Tanking that's always held an appeal to me. I like playing tough characters that draw a lot of attention on the battlefield, hardened warriors that can dish it out and take it in equal measure. It's a lot of fun to play once you get it going.But isn't it a most difficult thing to achieve?
Most of intelligent enemies will know - single spellcaster may be more dangerous than all warriors in the world; and non-sentient critters will attack wizard because he is not hidden inside hard armor...

[endur]

So, there are really three things that I would like a tank character to do.

1. Persuade enemies to attack him.
2. Attack enemies.
3. Survive attacks from enemies.

#1 can be done through game mechanics (AOO, various other abilities), or can be done through psychology ... the GM sees your figure on the battle map and sends his toughest monsters against your figure.

#2 requires some game mechanics, but attitude helps and proper positioning is important (hard to attack with a melee weapon if you are not adjacent).

#3 Surviving attacks requires game mechanics, and help from your friendly neighborhood cleric (pre-cast buff spells, a stitch in time can be worth nine).

So my optimal tank character is a fighter with a magic sword who has an adventuring party that includes a cleric. :)

The optimal tank I ran in Living Greyhawk was a little bit more than that, but that was basically what I was.

In LG, I had a dwarven defender/fighter/paladin (extra AC as a dwarven defender, saving throw bonuses as a paladin) with a magic axe (Moradin's Grip from Keoland).

[Elricaltovilla]

But isn't it a most difficult thing to achieve?
Most of intelligent enemies will know - single spellcaster may be more dangerous than all warriors in the world; and non-sentient critters will attack wizard because he is not hidden inside hard armor...

I summarized a number of classes that allow you to achieve the goal in Path of War and Path of War: Expanded. It's like Red Fel mentioned, you have to actually be a credible threat as well in order to make sure the enemies don't ignore you in favor of an easier target. How about I run you through an example tanking cycle I use on one of the Warders I play?

The warder in question is a Half-Orc Zweihander Sentinel Warder 9 with Mythic Rank 1 (Guardian)

I try to be at the head of the party anyway, but the goal is to interpose myself between the enemy and my allies, in a spot that gives me the widest coverage area for the map we're using. If I only need to cover 20 ft. or so, I move action into position and spend a standard action growing to Large Size with my Juggernaut Pauldrons. I'm now ready to AoO anyone within 25 ft. of me.

If I need to cover a wider area than that, I spend a swift action boost that allows me to move into position (there are several in Path of War), and a full-round action on Defensive Focus, which gives me a 15 ft. increase in my threatened area (but not reach) and allows me to move to make attacks of opportunity. The party Skald casts Enlarge Person on me (since I can't activate my Juggernaut Pauldrons) and my threatened area is now 40 ft.

Anyone that tries to move through my threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity from me. I cover such a huge area that they can't avoid it. I slap anyone I AoO with Armiger's Mark, which gives them a -6 penalty to attack rolls and 15% arcane spell failure chance for 5 rounds. I have an Immediate action available to use as a Counter in case someone tries anything tricky or manages to get around my zone.



Warders do an amazing job of being a tank. Zweihander Sentinels in particular are capable of covering huge areas, and they can do it all day long. Sure enemies might try to avoid me at first, but they learn that isn't an option very quickly when I hit them for 24 damage every time they try and do something I don't like. That kind of positive punishment (operant conditioning term) takes hold quickly, if they persist in doing things I don't like, they end up dead very quickly.

[endur]

But isn't it a most difficult thing to achieve?
Most of intelligent enemies will know - single spellcaster may be more dangerous than all warriors in the world; and non-sentient critters will attack wizard because he is not hidden inside hard armor...

This isn't chess. This is D&D around a table with a GM and 5 or so players. There is a battle map with a party of 5 or so characters on the battle map and 1+ enemies controlled by the GM. The goal of the D&D tank is not to gather up all the mobs (i.e. similar to WoW), instead the goal of the D&D tank is to attract the attention of some of the mobs. Over time, enough of the main enemies and enough of the special abilities were targeted at the tank that the rest of the party had an easier time surviving.

So what if mob X shoots an arrow at the wizard. The goal of the tank is to make sure that mobs aren't routinely ganking the wizard in melee.

[Florian]

Just wondering: This is a game played against an intelligent opponent, so there must really be an incentive to attack the tank. For example, an high AC tank or a high evasion tank simple is not an interesting first target but something you target last, when all other targets have been taken down.

Edit: In a sense, the best "tank" I've seen so far war a CAGM Barbarian build that lowered his AC down to 10, thereby inviting the enemy to go after him.

[endur]

Just wondering: This is a game played against an intelligent opponent, so there must really be an incentive to attack the tank. For example, an high AC tank or a high evasion tank simple is not an interesting first target but something you target last, when all other targets have been taken down.

Edit: In a sense, the best "tank" I've seen so far war a CAGM Barbarian build that lowered his AC down to 10, thereby inviting the enemy to go after him.

I understand why you think this would be the case, but my actual experience, both playing low ac barbarians and high ac fighters, is not what you would expect.

The reason, I think, is because this is not a game where the DM is your adversary. Instead the GM is a referee/story teller. The NPC opponents may or may not act like you would expect them to.

Sometimes the opponents will not attack the low AC barbarian. Sometimes they will attack the high ac fighter.

[Elricaltovilla]

Just wondering: This is a game played against an intelligent opponent, so there must really be an incentive to attack the tank. For example, an high AC tank or a high evasion tank simple is not an interesting first target but something you target last, when all other targets have been taken down.

Edit: In a sense, the best "tank" I've seen so far war a CAGM Barbarian build that lowered his AC down to 10, thereby inviting the enemy to go after him.

You're not wrong, and that's why you see people discussing the mechanics that do force (or otherwise heavily incentivise) enemies to attack a specific target. CAGM Barbarians are good examples, like the Jack B Quick builds from 3.5, but there are other ways to do it depending on what you have available.

I mean, in Pathfinder there's a spell called Compel Hostility which does basically that, but it isn't great because it doesn't go far enough and is comparatively action intensive (you're burning a standard action, which limits whatever else you can do for the round pretty severely).

EDIT:

I understand why you think this would be the case, but my actual experience, both playing low ac barbarians and high ac fighters, is not what you would expect.

The reason, I think, is because this is not a game where the DM is your adversary. Instead the GM is a referee/story teller. The NPC opponents may or may not act like you would expect them to.

Sometimes the opponents will not attack the low AC barbarian. Sometimes they will attack the high ac fighter.

And sometimes they'll attack the wizard or the cleric or the rogue instead, and at that point, what are you actually doing to serve as a tank? What do you actually bring to the table that makes it harder for an enemy to hurt your ally, or makes them more likely to choose your character as a priority target?

You can say "Oh, well the DM will just choose to attack me more often." Or you can actually make it so the DM has to attack you in order to do anything effective. That's the point of a tank: To be the priority target, to protect the squishies, to stand as the vanguard and the bastion upon which the enemy breaks. If you can't actually do that, then what are you actually doing?

[Alistaroc]

Seeing as how I started this mess I feel obligated to chip in :smallbiggrin:

You could always go psionics, use the astral construct power armor trick for the meat shield's stats, manifest something that drags them close to you(a lot of that in psionics), then just do psychotic break. What psychic powers would these be? I could see a few levels of psychic warrior being worth it to get such a leash effect.


Crusader for even a couple levels helps, Thicket of Blades Stance... There are several Divine Spirit and White Raven maneuvers that can penalize opponents for not attacking them. Devoted Spirit has several healing maneuvers that would help you keep attacking but also heal yourself...

But one of the coolest things that would be easy to miss is the Devoted Spirit Tactical Feat, Fath Unswerving. The second and third options are ver relevant. Second one allows you to jump in front of an attack meant for an ally, the last lets you attack one more time if dying which for someone with Devoted Spirit means plenty of time to heal yourself.

Also:

Jester (Dragon Compendium) - Jester's Performance: Taunt

Mindless Rage spell (Spell Compendium) There is some Cha synergy with Jester/Crusader; potentially one could take a level of Jester in a Crusader/Devoted Defender build for the taunt. Hell, throw in the Knight too if you want. As I read it the Jester's Taunt also scales off character level, not class level, which is quite nice. Otherwise it's probably too low of a DC though.

So:
Knight: AoE Aggro with Test of Mettle
Jester: Single target Aggro with a Will Save
Crusader: Make more attacks of opportunity, use their delayed damage pool to survive longer, and Faith Unswerving lets you take an attack for an ally
Devoted Defender: Take an attack for an ally
Constant + Dutiful Guardian: 2 feats lets you swap with your selected ally as an immediate action when they are attacked

This all together would give an AoE and single target aggro ability, and the ability to swap with any of 3 allies when they are attacked
Add leash or two of some sort from Psionics, and the ability to drag enemies to you and keep them there with AoOs and aggro abilities could be pretty useful actually.

[Requiem_Jeer]

I feel compelled to point out the Master of Mockery feat from Dragon 333. It's a standard action, but it compels someone to attack you at the exclusion of all others with a Will save DC that is based on a perform (comedy) check. Easy to make nigh-unbeatable, although it IS mind-effecting and language dependent. Much easier to pull off then using suggestion to make a person attack you anyway.

[Alistaroc]

I feel compelled to point out the Master of Mockery feat from Dragon 333. It's a standard action, but it compels someone to attack you at the exclusion of all others with a Will save DC that is based on a perform (comedy) check. Easy to make nigh-unbeatable, although it IS mind-effecting and language dependent. Much easier to pull off then using suggestion to make a person attack you anyway.
That's another single-target Aggro, and tbh looks much better than the Jester
Movement to replace Jester 1 with Master of Mockery? :smallbiggrin:

[endur]

And sometimes they'll attack the wizard or the cleric or the rogue instead, and at that point, what are you actually doing to serve as a tank? What do you actually bring to the table that makes it harder for an enemy to hurt your ally, or makes them more likely to choose your character as a priority target?

You can say "Oh, well the DM will just choose to attack me more often." Or you can actually make it so the DM has to attack you in order to do anything effective. That's the point of a tank: To be the priority target, to protect the squishies, to stand as the vanguard and the bastion upon which the enemy breaks. If you can't actually do that, then what are you actually doing?

This is an interesting question.

Imagine a pipe with water flowing down the pipe. We place two rocks in the pipe, a slightly larger rock in front of the second rock. My goal as a tank is to make most of the water hit the first rock before it can hit the second rock. Some water will flow around the first rock and hit the second rock without ever touching the first rock, but hopefully a lot of water will hit the first rock before it can reach the second rock.

One can argue that instead of just using a slightly bigger rock, we should actually use a rock large enough to block the pipe and prevent any water from reaching the second rock. That might work for a while, but then the pipe will burst and the second rock will get wet anyways.

So I'm not trying to be a wow tank where I agro all the mobs or a controller where I mind control all the mobs ... instead I'm trying to attract enough attention that my party has an easier time. While AOOs and taunting abilities definitely help, they aren't necessary to do that.

[Elricaltovilla]

This is an interesting question.

Imagine a pipe with water flowing down the pipe. We place two rocks in the pipe, a slightly larger rock in front of the second rock. My goal as a tank is to make most of the water hit the first rock before it can hit the second rock. Some water will flow around the first rock and hit the second rock without ever touching the first rock, but hopefully a lot of water will hit the first rock before it can reach the second rock.

One can argue that instead of just using a slightly bigger rock, we should actually use a rock large enough to block the pipe and prevent any water from reaching the second rock. That might work for a while, but then the pipe will burst and the second rock will get wet anyways.

So I'm not trying to be a wow tank where I agro all the mobs or a controller where I mind control all the mobs ... instead I'm trying to attract enough attention that my party has an easier time. While AOOs and taunting abilities definitely help, they aren't necessary to do that.

I'm not attempting to "block the pipe" either, but your reliance on the good graces of the DM bothers me as both a player and a DM. To continue with your metaphor, is your rock actually bigger than the other rocks behind it, thus blocking more water, or is someone angling the pipe so that more water is directed at one rock than others?

My point being: What do you actually do, without expecting anything special from the DM, that makes your character a more valuable target than the other characters on the field? If the answer is "Well nothing really" then how can you actually qualify your character as a tank?

[endur]

I'm not attempting to "block the pipe" either, but your reliance on the good graces of the DM bothers me as both a player and a DM. To continue with your metaphor, is your rock actually bigger than the other rocks behind it, thus blocking more water, or is someone angling the pipe so that more water is directed at one rock than others?

My point being: What do you actually do, without expecting anything special from the DM, that makes your character a more valuable target than the other characters on the field? If the answer is "Well nothing really" then how can you actually qualify your character as a tank?

So much of it is attitude and positioning on the battle-map. It may look like "well nothing really", but if you have nearly the apparent effectiveness of a WoW tank without the abilities, are you truly doing "nothing?"

If you are a fighter in the front of row of the party, the melee monsters that want to munch on the wizard have to go through or around the front row.

Granted, ranged monsters such as the beholder can send eye beams everywhere, so the fighter with a magic sword doesn't do a lot to protect the wizard in that case, but even in that case, the close range of the fighter to the beholder may cause more eye beams to be sent at the fighter than the wizard. Similarly there are melee opponents that can avoid AOOs from the front rank, tumbling rogues, shadow dancers, etc.

I'm not saying that special taunting abilities are useless, I'm saying that plain ordinary fighters with magic swords can be an effective tank for a party.

[Vaz]

Armour of the Dread Emperor. Although Full Plate, it has 4x 5ft chains attached to it, which each contain an individual manacled to them.

While it doesn't actually make you particularly threatening, or susceptible to attacks even, that you've got 4 individuals attached to you, who are invariably going to be meak and struggling, you can make an enemy get a bit ratty if they're sentient. Having them dominated to intercept the enemies charges with readied action is pretty vile.

Another thing that may make a character more of a rank is a ranged weapon - whether a long reach weapon or even up to something like a Bow. I really like Marrowcrushing. Although it's a +3 weapon, I think that it's a very powerful weapon. I quite like Arrowmind letting you Threaten Enemies within your reach, and so can use your dominated chained minions to trigger the flank and then use your ranged weapon (which you don't threaten with thanks to Arrowmind) to hit those that are attacking you with a lot of Marrowcrushing Arrow attack, with Sneak attack and Craven. A 20th level character attacking a 20 Con character is going to hit around +40 Damage in total.

Having some form of battlefield control can help to make the enemy come to you. Some Use Magic Device for some Wands of Wall of X spells (something like Incarnum, which debuffs those who are able to pass it etc is a particular favourite).

[Elricaltovilla]

So much of it is attitude and positioning on the battle-map. It may look like "well nothing really", but if you have nearly the apparent effectiveness of a WoW tank without the abilities, are you truly doing "nothing?"

I'd encourage you to take a look at one of my previous posts in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20151975&postcount=29). I'm getting the impression you don't think I know what I'm talking about. Because not only am I still not presenting a "WoW tank," I'm also discussing exactly this, and with significantly more detail, showing how the position I'm in interacts with the class features I use and the terrain around my character.


If you are a fighter in the front of row of the party, the melee monsters that want to munch on the wizard have to go through or around the front row.

And if you are a fighter, you have no way to ensure that the enemy is even mildly hindered on their way to go munch on the wizard. Your basic fighter takes up 9 squares (1 by occupying it, 8 for AoOs) a monster could walk right past you and lose at most 15 ft. of their movement doing so. If the area you're fighting in is any bigger than 15 ft. wide, you cannot block anyone medium size or smaller from getting past you.


Granted, ranged monsters such as the beholder can send eye beams everywhere, so the fighter with a magic sword doesn't do a lot to protect the wizard in that case, but even in that case, the close range of the fighter to the beholder may cause more eye beams to be sent at the fighter than the wizard. Similarly there are melee opponents that can avoid AOOs from the front rank, tumbling rogues, shadow dancers, etc.

Except that while you rely on "maybe the beholder will shoot me more than other people" and "I can't do anything about tumblers, teleporters or shadowdancers, so I hope the DM doesn't use those to target other people" there are builds, class features, feats and spells suggested in this thread that can actually deal with those enemies. Thicket of Blades makes enemies provoke AoOs even if they try to tumble or 5 ft. step out of your reach, being a Weresheep forces enemies to attack you in melee without a save, Master of Mockery forces enemies to attack you if they fail a very high will save, Enlarge Person and a spiked chain give you a 20 ft. threatened area to proc more AoOs, which you can use to trip or knock back foes and keep your allies safe. Why, in the face of these things, would you claim that a character that can do none of them is as effective a tank as the ones who can?


I'm not saying that special taunting abilities are useless, I'm saying that plain ordinary fighters with magic swords can be an effective tank for a party.

And I'm saying you're wrong. A fighter with a sword can only be an effective tank if someone else lets him be, while the Crusader, the Warder, the Come and Get Me Barbarian, and the Dragonfire Adept (to name a few options) can be actually effective even if the DM tried to plan otherwise.

[Talionis]

Seeing as how I started this mess I feel obligated to chip in :smallbiggrin:
What psychic powers would these be? I could see a few levels of psychic warrior being worth it to get such a leash effect.


There is some Cha synergy with Jester/Crusader; potentially one could take a level of Jester in a Crusader/Devoted Defender build for the taunt. Hell, throw in the Knight too if you want. As I read it the Jester's Taunt also scales off character level, not class level, which is quite nice. Otherwise it's probably too low of a DC though.

So:
Knight: AoE Aggro with Test of Mettle
Jester: Single target Aggro with a Will Save
Crusader: Make more attacks of opportunity, use their delayed damage pool to survive longer, and Faith Unswerving lets you take an attack for an ally
Devoted Defender: Take an attack for an ally
Constant + Dutiful Guardian: 2 feats lets you swap with your selected ally as an immediate action when they are attacked

This all together would give an AoE and single target aggro ability, and the ability to swap with any of 3 allies when they are attacked
Add leash or two of some sort from Psionics, and the ability to drag enemies to you and keep them there with AoOs and aggro abilities could be pretty useful actually.

Crusader Maneuvers that are tank like:

Crusader Strike - Heal
Iron Guards Glare - Stance -4 to attack anyone else
Martial Spirit - Stance Heal
Douse the Flames - target no attacks of opportunity
Shield Block- Grant AC bonus to another
Defensive Rebuke - Boost must attack you or create attack of opportunity
Revitalizing Strike - Heal
Thicket of Blades - 5 foot steps create attack of opportunity
Covering Strike - Boost every opponent you hit this round can't make attacks of opportunity
Shield Counter - Cancels an attack
Immortal Fortitude Stance - makes it very hard to die from hit point loss

There were less Tank attacks than I remember an I probably left off some that would be tank like. Most can be capture with a small dip since they are low level.

[AMFV]

Alrighty, there is definitely some awesome stuff going on the thread. I knew there wasn't a problem the Playground couldn't solve.

As for things that haven't been mentioned yet (most of which I thought of at work today):

A tank could benefit enormously from 1 level of Conjurer, that gives us Abrupt Jaunt, and probably the Slide Spells (which is pretty handy for moving things closer to our previous area of Thicket of Blades and no escape.

I also think the combination Mind Control, irritating the enemy into attacking you, and then being a tough warrior makes for some interesting fluff. Although we'd need to figure out how many "Aggro" type abilities we'd need, because at some point we'd want to work out how to survive from higher level attacks (which is why I suggested the Abrupt Jaunt dip), Iron Heart Surge would not be remiss as well.

[ShurikVch]

Couple more things:

1) Holy Calling (Dragon #334) - spending Turn/Rebuke Undead attempt will force single undead to attack only you for d4 rounds

2) How is nobody mentioned Goad (Complete Adventurer)? :smallconfused:


This isn't chess. This is D&D around a table with a GM and 5 or so players. There is a battle map with a party of 5 or so characters on the battle map and 1+ enemies controlled by the GM. The goal of the D&D tank is not to gather up all the mobs (i.e. similar to WoW), instead the goal of the D&D tank is to attract the attention of some of the mobs. Over time, enough of the main enemies and enough of the special abilities were targeted at the tank that the rest of the party had an easier time surviving.

So what if mob X shoots an arrow at the wizard. The goal of the tank is to make sure that mobs aren't routinely ganking the wizard in melee.OK, please tell me, if this party (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19067910&postcount=1) have a Tank of their one, how it may prevent the TPK?

[Platymus Pus]

No one mentioned just being plain immune to damage?
Get regeneration, becomes immune to non-lethal damage.
Enemies now can only deal non-lethal damage.
You're immune to damage.

[Florian]

No one mentioned just being plain immune to damage?
Get regeneration, becomes immune to non-lethal damage.
Enemies now can only deal non-lethal damage.
You're immune to damage.

That again hinges on two things, the social contract and your ability to mechanically generate "aggro".

[AMFV]

No one mentioned just being plain immune to damage?
Get regeneration, becomes immune to non-lethal damage.
Enemies now can only deal non-lethal damage.
You're immune to damage.

I think being completly immune to damage would be very counterproductive in terms of aggro generation, even if you had ways of forcing the monsters to attack you and only you, if it became apparant that you were literally ignoring them, then they might decide to book it.

Also to be fair, for high hit points tank types, it's not usually the Hit Point damage that gets you. If you can force things to focus on you, that means a LOT of Save-Or-Dies will be coming your way, since you'll be "encouraging" the people that have those to use them on you.

Which means that:

A.) Our highest save should be the one that monsters will assume is the lowest, since they generally still get to pick which spell they use.

and

B.) We need a few contingency options to avoid from getting instantly disabled and then killed.

[Florian]

So, my shot at it:

For Pathfinder, it will be the humble Fighter mixed 50-50 with Slayer. It uses VMC Barbarian to gain access to Come And Get Me.
Basic build is Sword and Board, TWF, just packing chainmail, a shield and scimitar.
Incentive tactic is lowering AC as far as possible, both, in "game" as well as in "plausible" terms to invite attacks. Enemies gain further incentive by giving a free to hit/to damage bonus when attacking, above and beyong the low AC.
Goal is to use a mix of Combat Reflexes, Strike Back and Dazing Assault to instantly shut down any enemy that targets this character.

[Elkad]

Reach and control of your size have big benefits as well.
If you can block the whole hallway with your body, you are literally a meat shield. If you can be one size too big for the space (possibly with tunnel fighting added in), even better.

In the open, if you are laying out AoO Knockdowns with 10' of reach, the bad guys can run around you to geek the mage easily. If it's 40', all but the fastest will waste at least one round on nothing but movement if they want to bypass you, whether they go around or tumble through.

As far as surviving, heal-tanking is a thing in many MMOs. No armor needed, just enough hitpoints to survive any single round, and a way to heal yourself from 1HP to full every round. If healing adds aggro, it works exceptionally well.

I've never considered a mailman-type build with a healer, but it should be possible. You'd be the terror of undead with your positive energy death life rays too.

[Platymus Pus]

That again hinges on two things, the social contract and your ability to mechanically generate "aggro".

The tank soaks damage, not really his priority to get aggro. It's the rest of the party's to match the beat of battle so they do target him. Least in the comparison to WoW.
Partner him with a batman wizard, don't give them a choice.

[OldTrees1]

The tank soaks damage, not really his priority to get aggro. It's the rest of the party's to match the beat of battle so they do target him. Least in the comparison to WoW.
Partner him with a batman wizard, don't give them a choice.

Interesting. So you are saying a Knight in shining armor(an example of a Tank) should do nothing to protect their charge other than protect themselves? You are saying a bodyguard(another example of a Tank) should do nothing to protect their charge other than protect themselves? Yes it is true that you can push the aggro task off onto a higher tier party member, but that does not negate the fact that the aggro task is part of your character(and using another party member to fulfill part of your character is not always wise).

A Tank soaks(handles/deals with) damage. Not just their share of the damage, they handle/deal with part of everyones shares of damage. This requires the Tank be preferably targeted by the enemies(aggro). Thus Aggro is part of the Soak Damage duty.

[Platymus Pus]

Interesting. So you are saying a Knight in shining armor(an example of a Tank) should do nothing to protect their charge other than protect themselves? You are saying a bodyguard(another example of a Tank) should do nothing to protect their charge other than protect themselves? Yes it is true that you can push the aggro task off onto a higher tier party member, but that does not negate the fact that the aggro task is part of your character(and using another party member to fulfill part of your character is not always wise).
I think you missed the point by putting words in my mouth.
The cleric keeps you healed, the wizard keeps control where they keep attacking you. The rest of the front line keeps things from going past you completely. Archer in the backline picks anything that makes it through the front off as well as contributes to the front line. You can't do it alone, it's just not manageable. There isn't particularly a tank role, because the tank role is due to a team configuration.

[Florian]

@Platymus Pus:

You know why I referenced the social contract? Because that is what you're getting all exited about.

[Platymus Pus]

@Platymus Pus:

You know why I referenced the social contract? Because that is what you're getting all exited about.

"Social contract" is required for this to work at all.
You can't tank if the party does stupid things.

[AMFV]

The tank soaks damage, not really his priority to get aggro. It's the rest of the party's to match the beat of battle so they do target him. Least in the comparison to WoW.
Partner him with a batman wizard, don't give them a choice.

Point of order. I have tanked in more than one MMORPG and as more than one class in WOW it is absolutely the tank's responsibility to get aggro, at least in that comparison.

Also the Batman wizard has better things to be doing than other peoples' jobs.

[Platymus Pus]

Point of order. I have tanked in more than one MMORPG and as more than one class in WOW it is absolutely the tank's responsibility to get aggro, at least in that comparison.

To a degree, if the rest of the party does too much damage the tank loses aggro. I don't know why you'd ignore that it's a party effort.

Also the Batman wizard has better things to be doing than other peoples' jobs.
The batman wizard does everyone's job. (http://images.techtimes.com/data/images/full/110662/bat-god-jpg.jpg?w=600)

[Red Fel]

To a degree, if the rest of the party does too much damage the tank loses aggro. I don't know why you'd ignore that it's a party effort.

Let's be clear, here.

In MMOs, "tanking" abilities are designed to generate spikes of aggro, which the Tank is then encouraged to maintain. By pacing these spikes, the Tank should be able to maintain aggro. The primary burden is on him.

Generally, regular damage-dealing attacks do not generate as much aggro as either tanking abilities or healing. So provided that your average non-tank party member doesn't go nova, it's not too hard to avoid pulling aggro from the tank. An exception exists in the form of the healer, as healing generally generates high aggro as well; the healer needs to focus on healing while not pulling aggro.

One way I've heard it is like this. It's the tank's job to maintain aggro. It's the healer's job to keep people alive without pulling aggro. It's the party's job to burn the thing down without pulling aggro, and to let the tank and healer do their thrice-damned jobs. Thus, the role of aggro maintenance is primarily, but obviously not exclusively, on the tank. The party's role in aggro is simply not to screw that up.

It is a party effort, but it is primarily the tank's effort.

Platy is right, though; the Batman Wizard does everybody's jobs. It's the God Wizard who doesn't do them himself.

[Florian]

@Red Fel:

Talking about regular D&D/PF, we simply don't have the underlying mechanics to make it work. Even worse, aggro mechanics break any kind of versimilude there is.
You simply don't "taunt" a target and be on top of its aggro list, that's simply ludicrious. (challenging the "worse" in "even worse" to a degree)

[Platymus Pus]

Let's be clear, here.

In MMOs, "tanking" abilities are designed to generate spikes of aggro, which the Tank is then encouraged to maintain. By pacing these spikes, the Tank should be able to maintain aggro. The primary burden is on him.

Generally, regular damage-dealing attacks do not generate as much aggro as either tanking abilities or healing. So provided that your average non-tank party member doesn't go nova, it's not too hard to avoid pulling aggro from the tank. An exception exists in the form of the healer, as healing generally generates high aggro as well; the healer needs to focus on healing while not pulling aggro.

One way I've heard it is like this. It's the tank's job to maintain aggro. It's the healer's job to keep people alive without pulling aggro. It's the party's job to burn the thing down without pulling aggro, and to let the tank and healer do their thrice-damned jobs. Thus, the role of aggro maintenance is primarily, but obviously not exclusively, on the tank. The party's role in aggro is simply not to screw that up.

It is a party effort, but it is primarily the tank's effort.
Nicely put. I'd certainly put the not screw it up part as part of the optimization of the build though.
If you're starting a new campaign/character make sure to make it clear you'll be playing that role, some builds are more stand alone than others after all.
Though I'd just go for the buffing route myself. I mean why have one tank when everyone can be one?


Platy is right, though; the Batman Wizard does everybody's jobs. It's the God Wizard who doesn't do them himself.
Don't blame the mistake since batgod is a thing.

[Red Fel]

@Red Fel:

Talking about regular D&D/PF, we simply don't have the underlying mechanics to make it work. Even worse, aggro mechanics break any kind of versimilude there is.
You simply don't "taunt" a target and be on top of its aggro list, that's simply ludicrious. (challenging the "worse" in "even worse" to a degree)

Trust me, I'm aware of this. This thread, as many others before it, has dealt heavily with that point. The best way to tank, the most action-efficient and effective method, is to bury your enemies before they can hurt anybody. This is also why healing in combat is considered such a waste.


Nicely put. I'd certainly put the not screw it up part as part of the optimization of the build though.
If you're starting a new campaign/character make sure to make it clear you'll be playing that role, some builds are more stand alone than others after all.
Though I'd just go for the buffing route myself. I mean why have one tank when everyone can be one?

It's a fair cop, although the force multiplier buffbot is... well... It's a totally different kind of build, all together.


Don't blame the mistake since batgod is a thing.

Yes I am.

[AMFV]

@Red Fel:

Talking about regular D&D/PF, we simply don't have the underlying mechanics to make it work. Even worse, aggro mechanics break any kind of versimilude there is.
You simply don't "taunt" a target and be on top of its aggro list, that's simply ludicrious. (challenging the "worse" in "even worse" to a degree)

We're aware of that... That's why it's an optimization challenge. If it were something that the system just supported it wouldn't be challenging to make it work. And there are certainly workable aggro methods. Mind control, as several people have pointed out. And in a world where singing can inspire people to fight harder and faster, or be more skillful, is it so farfetched to imagine that a joke might drive somebody into a blind rage (that happens even in our world).

So there certainly aren't "aggro" mechanics in the traditional sense, which opens up more interesting avenues, there are options in D&D that simply don't exist in MMORPGs as well. And I've been loving what people have come up with so far, I may try to mash some of it together when I'm feeling a little less pressed for time.


Nicely put. I'd certainly put the not screw it up part as part of the optimization of the build though.
If you're starting a new campaign/character make sure to make it clear you'll be playing that role, some builds are more stand alone than others after all.
Though I'd just go for the buffing route myself. I mean why have one tank when everyone can be one?

In this case, simply stating "we don't need a tank" is accurate, but not really in the spirit of the whole optimization challenge aspect. The same holds true for telling people you're playing a tank and expecting them to modify their behavior accordingly. This is after all an optimization challenge, and those solutions aren't really very optimal or rules intensive.



Don't blame the mistake since batgod is a thing.
Actually you should reread the Batman Wizard guide, the point was NOT to do everybody's jobs, but to help out enough that you COULD do everybody's jobs if necessary. It was trying to avoid overshadowing folks (as was the God Wizard later.

[Red Fel]

Actually you should reread the Batman Wizard guide, the point was NOT to do everybody's jobs, but to help out enough that you COULD do everybody's jobs if necessary. It was trying to avoid overshadowing folks (as was the God Wizard later.

I thought that was the distinction between the two. The God Wizard makes everyone better at their jobs and makes everything easier, but doesn't do the work himself. The Batman Wizard has a utility belt full of problem-solving tricks and gets the job done on his own, because everyone else is the Aquaman Monk as far as he's concerned.

Or maybe I got them reversed again. Stupid extradimensional imps...

[AMFV]

I thought that was the distinction between the two. The God Wizard makes everyone better at their jobs and makes everything easier, but doesn't do the work himself. The Batman Wizard has a utility belt full of problem-solving tricks and gets the job done on his own, because everyone else is the Aquaman Monk as far as he's concerned.

Or maybe I got them reversed again. Stupid extradimensional imps...

Both guides talk about avoiding doing other peoples' jobs. Both for similar reasons (because it's not a good use of a wizard's time to being doing those things). I would argue that the approach in both guides is almost identical with a few small variations (TreantMonk's guide is later and more exhaustive, LogicNinjas' is earlier). They do have differences of opinion but they're both kind of similar.

Edit : I believe that the distinction evolved with forum talk, and wasn't exactly linked back to the guide, but rather to the whole Schrodinger's perfect wizard idea. Which isn't practical and therefore was not the subject of either guide, both of which focused on practical knowledge.

You see that when people were talking about "have you ever seen a Batman wizard" in the genaral roleplay forum a few days ago. And I had, as I've played one pretty much straight from Logic Ninja's guide, but I think what they're talking about now is Schrodinger's Wizard, which winds up being tricky to pin down and define, perhaps appropriately.

[Platymus Pus]

Actually you should reread the Batman Wizard guide, the point was NOT to do everybody's jobs, but to help out enough that you COULD do everybody's jobs if necessary. It was trying to avoid overshadowing folks (as was the God Wizard later.

There is a difference between the two? :smallconfused: Well whatever.
Tanking huh. I might bump into a few things for it when I have the time.

[jedipilot24]

Three pages in and no-one has mentioned the Intimidate skill, especially combined with the Never Outnumbered skill trick. Or the Good Karma feat. And only one mention of Goad.
While the former only demoralizes enemies, thematically it's the sort of thing intended to draw aggro.

[Platymus Pus]

Three pages in and no-one has mentioned the Intimidate skill, especially combined with the Never Outnumbered skill trick. Or the Good Karma feat. And only one mention of Goad.
While the former only demoralizes enemies, thematically it's the sort of thing intended to draw aggro.

Is that like the Crowd Control (Ex) from Urban Barb?

[Calimehter]

Three pages in and no love for the Constant Guardian / Dutiful Guardian feats from DotU? Sure, you have to be pretty close to your ally and designate them ahead of time . . . but if you are aiming to tank anyway, those don't seem like big disadvantages.

[ShurikVch]

If we speaking about bonuses to allies, there are a number of such things...
Extend Defense (Dr#339): as a standard action, +2 cover to AC of adjacent ally, 50% probability of attack on him instead hit you
White Raven Defense: +1 AC to all adjacent allies
Protective Ward [Reserve] (CChamp): +1 sacred/profane to AC per spell level, as a standard action, to ally withing 30'
Protection Devotion [Domain] (CChamp): +2 sacred/profane to AC to you and all allies withing 30' (+1 more for every 4 levels, up to +7)
Allied Defense (Shining South) - if you use Combat Expertise, all adjacent allies get same + to AC
Oh, and about the Combat Expertise... Defensive Opportunist (Dr#340) - attack penalty for fighting defensively don't apply to AoO
And about the AoOs... Close-Quarter Defense (Dr#309) - get +2 on attack for AoO provoked when enemy move into your space, attack you unarmed, attempt grapple, bull rash, or sunder; (also, you will be able to use AoO against enemies who have feats to prevent AoOs, but in that case instead of +2 you get -10)

Bodyguard (Fighter variant, Dr#310): Cover - as a free action, give Shield and/or Dodge AC bonus (from Combat Expertise) to adjacent ally; may give to different allies, if they both adjacent

Golden Cup (Paladin sub. levels, Champions Of Valor):
3th Defend the Weak - if Golden Cup uses Combat Expertise, fi ghts defensively, or uses the total defense action, than one adjacent ally benefit from that Dodge bonus too; replaces Aura of Courage
4th Shield Other SLA, Cha bonus/day (but no more than 1 target/time); replaces Turn Undead

Speaking of Shield Other, Son of Mercy (Dr#339) of 5th level may have it constantly active - with whoever he got Contract with

Question: will it be possible to use Frenzied Berserker as a Tank?
Use the Inspire Frenzy on enemies, they will attack the closest target (i. e. Tank), who wouldn't ever die, because Deathless Frenzy...