An Objective Essay on Miko (Worth inspecting)

[Brown]

EDIT: Please read before replying:
DO NOT POST ANYTHING SUPPORTING OR DEGRADING MIKO, ONLY POST INFORMATION RELATING TO PEOPLE'S REACTIONS TOWARDS HER. POST YOUR OPINION OF MIKO IN ANOTHER THREAD THATS RELEVANT.

Before anybody replies, please decide whether you are discussing Miko herself or people's reactions towards her. Whatever people have previously said in this thread please only reply or argue against them if it is relevant to this thread. If it is not relevant to this topic then please ignore their post or give them a rebuttal in a PM or another thread no matter how displeased you may be at their opinion. It's fine if you want to express your opinions about her, but do not do so in this thread.

END EDIT

Beginning of original post:

After reading several threads with people debating on whether Miko should die or not, I would like to give a neutral input on the matter. This will be a mini-essay so please have the patience to bear with me, I have tried to punctuate everything correctly for your ease of reading.

Let me name several characteristics of Miko; skilled paladin, misguided, determined and completely devoted. Other than her devotion and skills there really are no positive aspects to her as a character. (Please correct me if I have missed something)

Good feelings may be felt by the reader towards her since they may find her mental unstability rather amusing and looking forward to seeing her character development. Unfortunately, many people have an adverse reaction towards Miko as they find her delusion and belief in herself as the epitome of arrogance, her lack of positive features or actions adds no goodwill towards her character whatsoever. Even though other characters may show arrogance this has always been relieved by being over-the-top in an amusing way, while Miko’s arrogance and delusion has always been completely serious.

The tension brought on to the reader by this arrogance has not been relieved at all throughout this webcomic. Some people feel this tension more than others and simply want the tension to be relieved but are getting frustrated by this lack of release. Hence, they now hate Miko.
Two ways to relieve this tension is for Miko to finally release the error of her ways in a huge way, or for her to get what she “deserves” and be punished for being so delusional.
Ethically, (a factor that may not matter in an overall comedic webcomic) the former should be done to redempt the character and to relieve the tension of seeing a character act in such an unpleasant matter.

However, the author may choose to keep this tension going for a long time yet, frustrating many readers, or, to the readers that find her comedic or interesting, this will add more interest and laughs.

Serious arrogance with no comeuppance usually invokes a strong negative reaction or an apathetic or light-hearted one, the strong reaction being that of tension. This is why this community is so divided on the topic of Miko; they can either not care about her character, or loath how her personality has had no emotional repercussions on her (since she has the self esteem of a brick, she dismisses or rationalises any argument or action against her).

I would like to mention another character similar to her in Dragonball Z, Hercule.
He had the same delusional arrogance and dismissed or rationalised any arguments or actions not in his favour. From what I have read on internet forums, he also had either a strong negative reaction or an apathetic one.

There is something about a unshakeably egotistical arrogant character that irks people, obviously this is not a phenomenon that affects everybody.
My suggestion for the author (and by no means do I think I am a superior story writer) would be to come up with a way to relieve the readers tension towards Miko (if that is what he desires), perhaps the author will come up with a brilliant method of doing this. If he does, I look forward to it.

I am not going to state my opinion on Miko myself as this essay has aimed to be from a neutral and objective point of view. I will admit however, that this essay has portrayed Miko in a rather negative light as I have not taken into account any good reasons for her behaviour such as an unhappy childhood or chemical imbalance for example.

Last of all I request no one replies with their extensive opinions on how suitabe the death of Miko would be. Only critique on what I have written in this mini-essay and any inaccuracies you may find.

I know I am a first time poster and so have no right to demand this but if at all possible, could all replies please keep this thread on the topic of my essay? It’s to avoid all pointless defending or flaming of Miko that belongs on other threads as I would like to not have to waft through all that again as I have already read it in other threads

Thank you.

Brown

[Spiryt]

Why?

I generally agree with all you just wrote. But you just started another miko thread, and things you had said here, as accurate as they are, had been said several times before...

[Emperor Ing]

Oh JC not another rmiko thread! :smallfrown:

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Wow, this is a very well written and thought out mini-essay that delves into the psyche of both Miko and those who might have very strong feelings about her, be they negative or positive. And very nice first post!

But I myself don't want the tension she brings about among her readers, because within conflict arises passion, and that's what I think attracts so many people to this comic and why they love it. I myself don't want her to die, or live, or any at all specific event. I just want a brilliant story to be written with so many twists, cliffhangers and driving stories that I'll be hooked onto this thing until it or myself dies.

I was about to type more, but it would have just turned into a self-anylitical paragraph or two about how I thrive on strife and tension.

[Brown]

I generally agree with all you just wrote. But you just started another miko thread, and things you had said here, as accurate as they are, had been said several times before...

I apologise, I was getting bogged down in the emotional talk of other readers so my goal in this thread was to listen to other peoples opinions on the use of Miko rather than their feelings toward Miko.

I tried looking for a place where this sort of conversation was abundant but I could not, perhaps I missed it. If this is the case I'm truly sorry.


But I myself don't want the tension she brings about among her readers, because within conflict arises passion, and that's what I think attracts so many people to this comic and why they love it.

Could you please explain this sentence? I'm trying to find the relation between this:
"But I myself don't want the tension she brings about among her readers,"
and this:
"because within conflict arises passion, and that's what I think attracts so many people to this comic and why they love it."

But thank you for your input :smallwink:

[Alfryd]

Other than her devotion and skills there really are no positive aspects to her as a character. (Please correct me if I have missed something)
I feel a Barbarian Rage coming on. But no. Not here. Not now. It is not the place or time.

[Spiryt]

BTW: Tell me, Brown (of course if you want) if you are psychologist or something.
Like I said:

things you had said here, had been said several times before...

But nobody wrote it in such factual and scientific ( at least I see it way) manner.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

Could you please explain this sentence? I'm trying to find the relation between this:
"But I myself don't want the tension she brings about among her readers,"
and this:
"because within conflict arises passion, and that's what I think attracts so many people to this comic and why they love it."

Sorry, I'm just a little tired. I mean to say people like conflict, bsaically. If everything's in order no one's going to really watch it unless it's a climactic way of ending things and putting it in order. If you start a fire, people are gonna watch it, if you put it out, people will go back to bed.

[Freelance Henchman]

Other than her devotion and skills there really are no positive aspects to her as a character. (Please correct me if I have missed something)

Well, she did save those dirt farmers back then. I guess that may be part of "devotion", but helping some poor have-nots even if you dont need to and theres no reward other than the satisfaction of helping others... thats a pretty positive thing to do, I think.

[Lord Zentei]

After reading several threads with people debating on whether Miko should die or not, I would like to give a neutral input on the matter. This will be a mini-essay so please have the patience to bear with me, I have tried to punctuate everything correctly for your ease of reading.

Let me name several characteristics of Miko; narcissistic, skilled paladin, delusional, determined and completely devoted. Other than her devotion and skills there really are no positive aspects to her as a character. (Please correct me if I have missed something)

Not among those you named, and is devotion and skill not enough in any case?


Good feelings may be felt by the reader towards her since they may find her mental unstability rather amusing and looking forward to seeing her character development. Unfortunately, many people have an adverse reaction towards Miko as they find her delusion and belief in herself as the epitome of arrogance, her lack of positive features or actions adds no goodwill towards her character whatsoever. Even though other characters may show arrogance this has always been relieved by being over-the-top in an amusing way, while Miko’s arrogance and delusion has always been completely serious.

Are you suggesting that Miko's arrogance is not amusing in an over the top way? Or that Xykon has posetive actions that migitate his misdeeds? Objective essay, indeed. :smallsigh:


The tension brought on to the reader by this arrogance has not been relieved at all throughout this webcomic. <snip snip>

Serious arrogance with no comeuppance usually invokes a strong negative reaction or an apathetic or light-hearted one, the strong reaction being that of tension. This is why this community is so divided on the topic of Miko; they can either not care about her character, or loath how her personality has had no emotional repercussions on her (since she has the self esteem of a brick, she dismisses or rationalises any argument or action against her).

"No comeuppance"? Are we reading the same webcomic, here? :smallconfused:


There is something about a unshakeably egotistical arrogant character that irks people, obviously this is not a phenomenon that affects everybody.
My suggestion for the author (and by no means do I think I am a superior story writer) would be to come up with a way to relieve the readers tension towards Miko (if that is what he desires), perhaps the author will come up with a brilliant method of doing this. If he does, I look forward to it.

It would be bad storytelling to eliminate tension prematurely. This is elementary. Too bad for people who can't take the tension, of course, but there you go.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Miko has been well and truly pwned at least twice http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0250.html.

edit: Nay, thrice http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html.

Her annoyingness is partly her inability to change, partly our own memories of annoying paladins and partly our disgust about how the blue cloaked guy was partly cool.

[Post]

Meh, I'll go with ShatteredTower's Pro Miko Essay.

[WarforgedGoblin]

Well, she did save those dirt farmers back then. I guess that may be part of "devotion", but helping some poor have-nots even if you dont need to and theres no reward other than the satisfaction of helping others... thats a pretty positive thing to do, I think.

No, as I see it, that's conditioning. She has been told to follow a Code, to the letter, every day of her life. She doesn't see the world as "right" and "wrong" or "good" and "evil", she sees the world as either "Followers of my Code" or "Non-Followers of my Code". Why do you think she cut down the old guy (whose name escapes me)? Despite being a canny, intelligent ruler, he broke "her" Code and therefore was clearly "not right". Despite her (now fallen) paladin nature, she's not Lawful Good, she's Lawful Stupid. And as of 462, it looks like she's turned down the road of Lawful Delusional on her way to Delusional Stupid.

BTW, Nice read Brown. Very succint and well written. I agree wholeheartedly and find myself in the "Meh, who cares?" camp.

[Storm Bringer]

Closet_Skeleton: you missed one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)

[Brown]

BTW: Tell me, Brown (of course if you want) if you are psychologist or something.

I am not, and I apologise if I presented myself as something I am not. I try not to operate under the pretence that I am an expert.


I feel a Barbarian Rage coming on. But no. Not here. Not now. It is not the place or time.

I'm sorry if I offended you Alfryd, it is not my intention to present a pro or anti Miko essay, if I have missed out on a postive attribute of her character I would appreciate your enlightenment.


Meh, I'll go with ShatteredTower's Pro Miko Essay.

If that quote was made because I came across as anti-Miko, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I want to present a third person view on the reason's why people would like her, despise her, or feel indifferent towards her.


Not among those you named, and is devotion and skill not enough in any case?
Again, if I have missed out on a positive personality trait I am sorry.
Devotion and skill are certainly not enough. It is reasonable to assume some hob/goblins would have both these character traits, this does not make them good or positive characters.


Are you suggesting that Miko's arrogance is not amusing in an over the top way? Or that Xykon has positive actions that migitate his misdeeds? Objective essay, indeed.

I was trying to say that the portrayal of Miko is rather serious and is only humourous when the absurdities of her character are appreciated, some people cannot ignore her personality however and so view her rather negatively. This phenomena seems to apply to personalities of her type; people can easily laugh at Xykon even if he is sadistic and evil as they can see the humour in the situation.


"No comeuppance"? Are we reading the same webcomic, here?

You bring up a good point, Miko does have her comeuppance several times throughout this webcomic. When this happens the anger and tension is released into satisfaction of someone getting what they deserve (as some people might see it). As Closet_Skeleton said, tension is quickly built up again as it is evident Miko has made no change in her thinking patterns. Thus the cycle of tension builds up again.


It would be bad storytelling to eliminate tension prematurely. This is elementary. Too bad for people who can't take the tension, of course, but there you go.

It is also bad story-telling (or at least less popular) to leave the tension hanging for too long. If the author wishes to write a story he is happy with, good for him. Perhaps he is planning a big bang to satisfy people's desire to see Miko getting what she "deserves."
An example of (arguably) over-used tension would be the show Carnivale.
The second season of the show massed up tension without or rarely releasing it leading to the description of being a "heavy show," this seemed to turn off viewers leading to a decline of ratings while others remained apathetic or enjoyed this sustained tension. Whatever the quality that the show Carnivale was, the unresolved tension seemed to have a negative effect on the ratings of the show.


If you start a fire, people are gonna watch it, if you put it out, people will go back to bed.

That is an interesting allegory, thank you for sharing it with me, I'd like to remember it.

I appreciate all your comments and critiques that have made me consider my viewpoint several times. I look forward to hearing your opinions on this matter.

[Kioran]

The problem I have is that I think Miko is being demoted from a character to a plot device. In another thread I have compiled a list of good reasons for just about anything up to snapping Sabine´s neck(which was friggin awesome by the way).
She´s not making much sense anymore. She doesn´t have Elan´s stupidity, so whatever she does should make sense from her(not a general) POV.
I can´t imagine how it would anymore. Madness is not a general breakdown of all higher brain functions, just some delusional beliefs about your environment or some overreacting mechanism.

So I the Giant made her act that way because it was expedient to his plot, not because her character would have done it. The problem is this introduces inconsistency into the character which is very bad. The best thing to do in that case is dropping the Character after he has done the deed, maybe by leeting them finally kill her.

[Brown]

You bring up another good point on why people may like or dislike Miko, people acting out of character for a plot device makes some people feel uncomfortable while yet again others are apathetic, then there are those who justify any strange actions done by the character. Whether they are successful or not is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about people's reactions to Miko, not about Miko herself.

[Kioran]

You bring up another good point on why people may like or dislike Miko, people acting out of character for a plot device makes some people feel uncomfortable while yet again others are apathetic, then there are those who justify any strange actions done by the character. Whether they are successful or not is not the topic of this thread. This thread is about people's reactions to Miko, not about Miko herself.

If I may bring other authors into play, the Australian SciFi/Fantasy author Sean McMullen actually does that quite often. He builds up a nice, if somewhat voluminous plot in the first half of the book, then, when he needs to collect the threads again to finish it up, he sometimes roughly uses the characters to push the plot in the right direction, even if it is totally out of character (Lemorel Milderellen in "Souls in the great machine" for example). I remember being totally infuriated the first time that happened, and seldom has Miko caused such outrge as now. I think this is one of the main reasons.

[Lord Zentei]

Again, if I have missed out on a positive personality trait I am sorry.
Devotion and skill are certainly not enough. It is reasonable to assume some hob/goblins would have both these character traits, this does not make them good or positive characters.

Nonsense. Devotion and skill are certainly enough to make a good character: see people's favourable reaction to Redcloak when he realized that he was killing off the hobgoblins and that he should instead be devoted to their cause. You moreover seem to be confusing the concept of a "good or posetive character" with "good or posetive person" as all to many around here do vis-a-vis Miko.


I was trying to say that the portrayal of Miko is rather serious and is only humourous when the absurdities of her character are appreciated, some people cannot ignore her personality however and so view her rather negatively. This phenomena seems to apply to personalities of her type; people can easily laugh at Xykon even if he is sadistic and evil as they can see the humour in the situation.

It has been pointed out before that the OOTS used to be a more gag-oriented strip, and that not every one accepted or could handle the switch to the more serious mode (moreover, people didn't know how to place her originally: was she to be an antagonist or a new party member?)

Which is just too bad, of course. But the fact remains that a double standard seems to be in effect. For instance, Redcloak isn't what one would consider a "humorous" character, yet he is not hated.


You bring up a good point, Miko does have her comeuppance several times throughout this webcomic. When this happens the anger and tension is released into satisfaction of someone getting what they deserve (as some people might see it). As Closet_Skeleton said, tension is quickly built up again as it is evident Miko has made no change in her thinking patterns. Thus the cycle of tension builds up again.

And yet, she doesn't remain unchanged: as many have pointed out, her road to madness only worsens. That, at least, is not stasis, even though this path is determined by her pre-existing flaws. Moreover, it's not as though other villains have really changed their tune, with the exception of Redcloak and his newfound sense of duty to the hobgoblins.


It is also bad story-telling (or at least less popular) to leave the tension hanging for too long. If the author wishes to write a story he is happy with, good for him. Perhaps he is planning a big bang to satisfy people's desire to see Miko getting what she "deserves."
An example of (arguably) over-used tension would be the show Carnivale.
The second season of the show massed up tension without or rarely releasing it leading to the description of being a "heavy show," this seemed to turn off viewers leading to a decline of ratings while others remained apathetic or enjoyed this sustained tension. Whatever the quality that the show Carnivale was, the unresolved tension seemed to have a negative effect on the ratings of the show.

If people cannot wait for the story to be over, then that too is just too bad. I haven't seen the show you refer to, so I can't say whether the analogy is a valid one.

[Kaziel]

First off, nice post. It does come off as a little anti-miko, but far more neutral than many posts.


You bring up a good point, Miko does have her comeuppance several times throughout this webcomic. When this happens the anger and tension is released into satisfaction of someone getting what they deserve (as some people might see it). As Closet_Skeleton said, tension is quickly built up again as it is evident Miko has made no change in her thinking patterns. Thus the cycle of tension builds up again.I'd like to expand that final portion by saying, IMO, without Miko changing her thinking patterns the tension builds up faster than each previous time. To a degree it is due to us knowing somethings going to go wrong, and also because while there are variations in what she does, it is almost always the "wrong thing" and I would hazard a guess that those who view her negatively generally don't like repetition.

[The Wanderer]

Not among those you named, and is devotion and skill not enough in any case?

So, if I come across a fictional character, (or real person), who has been raised in a racist, religious fundamentalist environment and believes that it is their given mission in life to wipe out everyone of a different color and religion, and is damn good at it, should I embrace them? Afterall, they have skill and devotion, and apparently that is enough in any case.

And if we're going to go just by skill and devotion as reasons to like a character, then shouldn't Belkar be a favorite of yours, since he has both death dealing skill and devotion to a greater evil, as seen by his self dialog about saving Hinjo?

Honestly, I think Miko diehards have a tendency to make a mistake that is mostly found in people who are in love: they tend to see what they want to see in a person/character, rather than what is actually there. They want Miko to be good and just and right, and therefore she must be, regardless of the evidence to the contrary.

[Rincewind]

Bumping this thread, so that the Miko threads stay up for longer, and so that people hate Miko a little more each day...

[Spiryt]

So, if I come across a fictional character, (or real person), who has been raised in a racist, religious fundamentalist environment and believes that it is their given mission in life to wipe out everyone of a different color and religion, and is damn good at it, should I embrace them? Afterall, they have skill and devotion, and apparently that is enough in any case.


Yup. Devotion can be virtue, but is not good e.c. for itself.

[malagigi]

Really, I think the OP missed the most important character traits: unyielding and misguided. It's these two traits that have primarily brought Miko to where she is today and the former is, in my opinion, why she is so reviled throughout the audience.

I will also comment, as an aside, on two pejoratives used to describe Miko, which challenge the neutrality of the OP:
I do not find Miko “narcissistic”. She never thinks she is wrong, but that speaks more to being misguided, rather than self-love.
Also, “delusional” is too charged to be used neutrally unless by a trained clinician or researcher. From a layperson the term invariably fails to be a critique; it is simply used too often to disparage.

On being unyielding, there is a significant arrogance in that. People respond to it strongly, perhaps more strongly than any other arrogance. It seems to be the case in this strip. For some, a measure of nobility can be found in being unyielding, as an individual finds principles that they will not compromise for expedience (particularly when one is unyielding in the pursuit of good and the fight against evil). On the other hand, some find this particular sort of arrogance so repulsive they cannot find value in it. There is, without a doubt, a variety of responses besides these, or even a blending of these responses. They are in evidence on these very boards. I suspect some of the response is dependent on whether one believes morality is absolutist or relative, though that is idle speculation on my part.

On Miko's being misguided, it is hard to say where the origins lay. Much of what follows is also speculation, but reasonable I hope. In my mind, her fundamental flaw is in the faulty logic of:
A. Good is never wrong.
B. I (Miko) am Good.
--
C. I (Miko) am never wrong.

A beguiling argument, but of course, faulty as well as untrue. The premises were probably instilled by her training, though she has cleaved to them so strongly due to her nature of her character. No small part of the blame for her state must reside with Miko herself. With this misguided reasoning, Miko has reached a dissidence with the world around her as well as a state that might be called tragic, were one inclined to empathy.

One final point that I don't think has been addressed here is the possibility that Miko has been manipulated. Her fundamental of faults have been lain bare, and a variety of misunderstandings and coincidences have conspired to capitalize upon them in such a way that she has been driven to a state quite outside what we are given to understand was her nature until only recently. Perhaps these were just coincidences that have added up to effectively light a waiting fuse. On the other hand, forces more powerful than the PC perceive may be at work. If no such mover is revealed I'll presume it is the former, but I find the later theory has merit.

[Brown]

I do not find Miko “narcissistic”. She never thinks she is wrong, but that speaks more to being misguided, rather than self-love.
Also, “delusional” is too charged to be used neutrally unless by a trained clinician or researcher. From a layperson the term invariably fails to be a critique; it is simply used too often to disparage.

You're right, I'll change the wording, thank you.

I'll have more of a reply later when I have time.

[rosebud]

One wonderful thing about Durkon is you see the gods direct involvement. On many occasions, even his patron is involved.

With Miko, you've only seen the gods involved once -- when she fell.

When she was still in the fray and redeemable, she was an interesting character. It's possible she may become interesting again. Right now, she just feels like a tool of the plot. No tension there. No dimension.

If the twelve gods become involved or if she returns to the world of humanity, she might become an interesting character again. Until then, she's just a tool in my view. So, beyond that, it's hard to comment or care.

[David Argall]

Closet_Skeleton: you missed one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)

Also http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0270.html

and http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0281.html

and... oh, never mind. Miko just gets beat up pretty often.

Those that don't like her should really be satisfied.

[TheNovak]

So many Miko threads. Eh, that's fine, as this one's OP is excellent and well-written. So huzzah!

I agree with most of your analysis, but one bit sticks out. I generally consider myself a pretty laid-back guy, but I love Hercule/Mr. Satan and his goofyness, and I enjoy Miko and the way she can unexpectedly shape events. Not to make a broad analysis, but my assumption was that the folks who see a bit too much of themselves in her were the ones who wanted her dead.

Putting myself in the shoes of a character in the OotS-verse, though, I absolutely hate her guts. She's much more enjoyable from the spectator box :smallsmile:

[Lord Zentei]

So, if I come across a fictional character, (or real person), who has been raised in a racist, religious fundamentalist environment and believes that it is their given mission in life to wipe out everyone of a different color and religion, and is damn good at it, should I embrace them? Afterall, they have skill and devotion, and apparently that is enough in any case.

Nice slippery slope there. You seem to be conflating devotion to law and good with devotion to an obvious evil. And you seem to equate equate the fictional with the real.


And if we're going to go just by skill and devotion as reasons to like a character, then shouldn't Belkar be a favorite of yours, since he has both death dealing skill and devotion to a greater evil, as seen by his self dialog about saving Hinjo?

Who says he isn't? We're talking about liking characters here, not the persons they represent. Or are you, like so many naysayers, conflating the two?


Honestly, I think Miko diehards have a tendency to make a mistake that is mostly found in people who are in love: they tend to see what they want to see in a person/character, rather than what is actually there. They want Miko to be good and just and right, and therefore she must be, regardless of the evidence to the contrary.

Miko "diehards", tsk. And since when did I say that she was right? Don't put words in my mouth, buddy.

[David Demola]

I give this essay an F- for poor sentence structuring, tone, and for useless paralanguage.

[Solara]

Nice essay, but I think your pleas for it to not turn into a Miko is great/Miko should die borderline flamewar are going to fall on deaf ears. That's just unavoidable here.

My opinion on Miko? In short, I love what she does for the story, but hate what her appearance does to the forums. (Though I will allow that the latter isn't really her fault...)



Even though other characters may show arrogance this has always been relieved by being over-the-top in an amusing way, while Miko’s arrogance and delusion has always been completely serious.

I think this is a really good point and one of the main reasons for all that tension you were talking about. Everybody gets way, way more uptight about Miko than you'd think would be appropriate for a D&D based parody about stick figures, but that might be because, besides a few rare exceptions, the plot tends to be more serious when she's around. There have been very few scenes where you get to relax and laugh at her like you so often can with Team Evil and the LG. Oh, and if you've ever read a webcomic called Goblins, you'd find a similar, (but much more extreme) example of this technique in the form of a "paladin" named Kore.

Even Miko's very first appearance marked the transition from goofing off in dungeons and going on sidequests to the main storyline and all the drama that's gone with it. And that, if nothing else, is why I love her as a character. (Even if as a person she makes me want to try and knock some sense into her with a 40 lb. anvil...)

[evileeyore]

The tension brought on to the reader by this arrogance has not been relieved at all throughout this webcomic. Some people feel this tension more than others and simply want the tension to be relieved but are getting frustrated by this lack of release. Hence, they now hate Miko.
Two ways to relieve this tension is for Miko to finally release the error of her ways in a huge way, or for her to get what she “deserves” and be punished for being so delusional.
Ethically, (a factor that may not matter in an overall comedic webcomic) the former should be done to redempt the character and to relieve the tension of seeing a character act in such an unpleasant matter.

However, the author may choose to keep this tension going for a long time yet, frustrating many readers, or, to the readers that find her comedic or interesting, this will add more interest and laughs.Or a completely different view may find the Author keeping Miko "unreleased" thus maintaining a steady source of character and reader tension.

It is what I would completely propose.


As well I think your completely dead wrong. Being stripped of her Paladinic abilities by the Gods was about the "best" comeupence she could have. That she maintains her sense of devotion and blind justice only serves to show the readers she will perserver in her ways regardless of her setbacks and that "she" does not rest her own self image on the views of others.

This very strong moral characteristic is often mistaken as arrogance and demonized by those who do not have such strongly internalized values.

We can go around the Society Comes First/Village aspects and the pros and cons (and highly hypocritical views) of the Internalized versus Externalized Self Worth issue, but I'd rather not.


Another classical character does the same: Odysseus. The only difference is the audience is given several sympathetic ties to his ideals and goals thus when he causes the deaths of all of his crew through repeated blind stubborn devotion to his own ideals, he is still loved as a flawed (tragic) hero, not villified as Miko has been.

((No I really do not want to compare and contrast Odysseus and Miko. They are apples and oranges, really. However I can and will compare the similiar character trait of Extreme Self Confidence they both have, and the glaringly obvious difference people take on it as presented in them))


I would like to mention another character similar to her in Dragonball Z, Hercule.Please never quote such garbage literature in these hallowed again.

Just... don't. Think of the Kittens. :wink:

[kirbsys]

The problems with Miko are that she sees everything in Black and White, believes that the Gods have chosen her to be Special, and now that things have begun to go wrong, instead of hunkering down and letting someone help her fix what she's done, she keeps jumping to these stupid conclusions to avoid taking the blame. She decides that Shojo is evil because she cant see that sometimes not everything is Black and White and for the greater good, the Paladin oaths needed to be circumvented. Then after she loses her paladin powers, she blames Roy for it saying that he controlled the events. On top of that she takes the crack in the bars as a sign, instead of seeing it as coincidence. Then when she walks into the throne room and takes what she sees as a sign from the Gods, not just coincidence again. And on top of that, instead of taking the time to stop and think about whether or not it's truely necessary to smash the gate holding back that God-Killing creature, she just smashes it. And once this gets pointed out to her Im sure she'll just blame some one else, or she'll say that the Gods wanted her to.

[Seraph]

I think some people are not understanding what "comeuppance" means. yes, it means that someone get smacked around, it also means that it happens to such an extent that they realize that they were entirely deserving of it. in this sense, Miko may have been smacked about, but she has not gotten any comeuppance.

[The Wanderer]

Nice slippery slope there. You seem to be conflating devotion to law and good with devotion to an obvious evil. And you seem to equate equate the fictional with the real.

Nope, I just found your original statement, where you did NOT say "devotion to law and good" but simply skill and devotion to be shortsighted and decided to show the other side of skill and devotion. (Not that I personally give devotion to law a great deal of credit, since one of the constants of law in every era and society is it being used to repress and persecute minority classes. Laws don't count for much with me unless they actually exist and work to serve and better the people).

Fact is, virtually every single virtue can be turned on its head and be a trait found in a repulsive character. Admiring that one trait and ignoring the rest, (as I feel many Miko fans do), is about as sensible as calling a barren field a flower patch because of a single rose, or a decrepit museum great because you like one exhibit.

Regarding Belkar:


Who says he isn't?

There are a lot of characters in your fan club listing. Belkar is absent, and many of Miko's fans hold a special loathing for the halfling. If it's not the case with you then good on you, and that time my point goes by the wayside. :smallsmile:


Miko "diehards", tsk. And since when did I say that she was right? Don't put words in my mouth, buddy.

Where did I say you did? Don't put words in my mouth. :smalltongue: :smallwink:

Unlike the first two paragraphs, that last one wasn't targeted specifically towards you, but towards the generality of the more extreme Miko fans, the ones who do seem to be incapable of realizing that she might make a mistake, and will seemingly continue to defend her decisions until the point when she declares that she wishes to unleash the Snarl and destroy all creation. :smallwink: (And if that were to happen, I'm sure that at least a few would argue that is this version of reality in the OOTS land is so corrupt maybe it would be best to tear it down and start all over again :smallwink: )

[David Demola]

Dear Miko:

Sorry you were a dumb bimbo who got totally jacked up in that explosion that you caused. I hope the rod in your a** doesn't get dislodged in the afterlife.

Keep it AZN, Miko,

~Dave

[Gitman00]

That she maintains her sense of devotion and blind justice only serves to show the readers she will perserver in her ways regardless of her setbacks and that "she" does not rest her own self image on the views of others.

I think that's an over-generalization. These are only postive moral characteristics when tempered by introspection and humility. Productive introspection requires comparing yourself to an objective standard outside of yourself. Because, to Miko, she is the standard, there is nothing else she can compare herself to, so she'll never recognize her own flaws. Her pride is by far her most serious fault, and by its very nature it prevents her from seeing it as a fault. It's a self-perpetuating cycle, and I don't see how she can escape it at this point.


This very strong moral characteristic is often mistaken as arrogance and demonized by those who do not have such strongly internalized values.

Sorry, man. There's nothing "mistaken" about Miko's arrogance. When she refuses to admit she's wrong even after her gods pronounce judgment upon her, that's a little more than "strongly internalized values".

[Brown]

Nice essay, but I think your pleas for it to not turn into a Miko is great/Miko should die borderline flamewar are going to fall on deaf ears. That's just unavoidable here.

Unforunately you are right, this has turned into another pro's and con's of Miko, whether she is justified in her actions or deserves to be hated. I will attempt one more time to avoid this type of discussion by editing my original post.

TO ANYONE THAT HAS READ THE ABOVE POSTS DISCUSSING THE CHARACTER OF MIKO RATHER THAN PEOPLE'S REACTIONS TOWARDS HER PLEASE IGNORE THE POSTS, IF YOU MUST REPLY, DO SO SOMEWHERE ELSE. FOR THE INTEGRITY OF THIS THREAD

[Lord Zentei]

Nope, I just found your original statement, where you did NOT say "devotion to law and good" but simply skill and devotion to be shortsighted and decided to show the other side of skill and devotion.

That I meant devotion to law and good was pretty obvious, given the context. This was rather disingenious, frankly.


(Not that I personally give devotion to law a great deal of credit, since one of the constants of law in every era and society is it being used to repress and persecute minority classes. Laws don't count for much with me unless they actually exist and work to serve and better the people).

Well, as for that, Azure City is a lawful good society.


Fact is, virtually every single virtue can be turned on its head and be a trait found in a repulsive character. Admiring that one trait and ignoring the rest, (as I feel many Miko fans do), is about as sensible as calling a barren field a flower patch because of a single rose, or a decrepit museum great because you like one exhibit.

Ah, to wax poetic. Of course, if you make such a claim, you are merely stating a postulate, and haven't shown that it applies to Miko or anyone else, for that matter.

Regardless, no-one denies that Miko is in fact an antagonist and causes more harm than good due to her foibles, so I can't really see where you are trying to go with this. Did you also naysay people who voiced respect for Redcloak when he remembered his duty to all goblin-kind and stopped killing off the hobbos? Yet he is knowingly malevolant.


There are a lot of characters in your fan club listing. Belkar is absent, and many of Miko's fans hold a special loathing for the halfling. If it's not the case with you then good on you, and that time my point goes by the wayside. :smallsmile:

Well, one can only join so many fanclubs before it starts to lose its point, and one might as well say "everyone, lol".


Where did I say you did? Don't put words in my mouth. :smalltongue: :smallwink:

Unlike the first two paragraphs, that last one wasn't targeted specifically towards you,

Since the previous paragraphs were in fact targeted at me, you should perhaps have been more clear. :smallwink:


but towards the generality of the more extreme Miko fans, the ones who do seem to be incapable of realizing that she might make a mistake, and will seemingly continue to defend her decisions until the point when she declares that she wishes to unleash the Snarl and destroy all creation. :smallwink: (And if that were to happen, I'm sure that at least a few would argue that is this version of reality in the OOTS land is so corrupt maybe it would be best to tear it down and start all over again :smallwink: )

I doubt that very much. And as far as I can see, it is annoyance with the irrational Miko-hate that inspires many to argue reflexively against the less reasonable arguments. If Belkar were to receive several dozen "OMFG I hate Belkar, Belkar should die!!1+1, Belkar sucks because of XYZ every time he made an appearance, I submit that we would be seeing quite a lot of responses defending the little guy, which would become increasingly frustrated. As for instance, I remember a number of people vehemently defending Belkar's treatment of the prison guard he killed and disemboweled, when it came up. Only most of the time, despite his antics, he doesn't get that reaction. Therefore, I have to conclude that even assuming that you are correct that many/most Miko fans hate him (which I don't neccesarily grant) they are capable of distinguishing between fact and fancy to a sufficient extent not to react in that way.

[Spiryt]

I give this essay an F- for poor sentence structuring, tone, and for useless paralanguage.

Go write better one. We are waiting :smalltongue: :smalltongue:

[Iranon]

I believe a lot of the support/antagonism is directly related to what the reader considers a good story.

Some people prefer to read about ordinary characters thrown into situations that force them to grow. Some people prefer those who are larger than life from the outset. Some people want to read about characters who are paragons of their underlying philosophy, as a personification in epic good-vs-evil, law-vs-chaos conflicts... others find personal conflicts within one's professed moral orientation of more interest.



A few observations about Miko, as unbiased as I can be (although I cannot claim that they are totally, absolutely and in all other ways accurate)

- She tries hard to be a champion of both Law and Good
- She is both devoted and capable; at her level she is definitely larger than life and a formidable force either way.
- Her belief in being 'chosen' is genuine; she doesn't consciously twist her beliefs towards personal glorification.
- Her acts frequently do not serve the cause of Good, nor can they always be considered intrinsically good by the deontological approach.
- She was presented with sufficient evidence that she is not in fact living up to her ideals; unbiased contemplation would have made that clear to her
- She appears to have no social framework of friends and confidantes, and nobody she believes qualified for giving moral advice.



What separates Miko from most other characters in the Stickiverse is that her goals and the effects of her actions diverge dramatically. Whether that makes her an anti-hero or an unwitting villain is open to debate.
The only other character for whom that could be said to be true is Belkar as an 'anti-villain'. However, Belkar's moral code seems very relaxed... while he takes offense at being forced to perform a 'quasi-good act', he mostly does as he pleases and gives little thought to moral quandaries. Moreover, when those come into the spotlight, they are treated as comic relief while the consequences of Miko's often misguided actions are among the most grim parts of OotS.



Now it comes down to personal preferences and opinion... I see Miko as someone with many admirable traits, but as a fundamentally flawed character. I appreciate the tragedy in having someone with her impeccable personal honour (and astonishing capability for doing good) fall short of her ideals in countless ways. The hints at her apparent naivite and fundamental loneliness (which goes far beyond a lack of treasure type O...) further engage my sympathies.

I can definitely understand why many people thoroughly dislike her though. Her actions are inconsistent with her beliefs, so any dramatic tension between her and other characters may not feel valid. Furthermore, she doesn't recognise (or refuses to acknowledge) inner conflicts. Given the slow overall progress of the story - after all, if we had the complete story in the form of a book most of us would read it at a much faster pace - I assume many people get bored waiting for the catharsis and wish that aspect of the story would just go away.