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View Full Version : [Feats, Weapons] Effective spear combat, and a new feat tree



Peregrine
2007-06-08, 09:20 AM
What began as one idea, the ever-popular fight to make spear-and-shield combat possible, has basically turned into two things. One is still true to that aim, though branching out into such things as new weapons of the spear family. The other grew out of a feat intended to exploit one of the new weapons, and has basically turned into the beginnings, at least, of a whole new feat tree, of the same ilk as Dodge and Power Attack and so on. Where the Dodge tree is about being on the move and hard to hit, with attacks getting second place, this tree is about being on the attack and moving while doing so.

I don't doubt that the ideas of this feat tree have been done before, but here I've turned my hand to doing them and doing them together as a (hopefully) cohesive whole. Please let me know what you think.

Feats

Spear Formation [General]
You are trained in the basics of fighting in the solid defensive style of spear formations.
Prerequisites
Proficient with spear or longspear, Shield Proficiency
Benefits
By taking a move action to ready yourself, you are able to fight effectively with a spear or longspear in one hand, freeing up your other hand to bear a shield. You must be proficient with the type of spear wielded.
While you are readied in this way, you do not grant cover to enemies against the melee attacks of allies with reach.
If you change your position, you must take another move action to ready yourself in your new position.
Normal
A spear or longspear is a two-handed weapon. You provide soft cover against all melee reach attacks made through your space.
Special
A fighter may select Spear Formation as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Analysis
Fight with a spear and shield (or anything else in your off hand), and let allies behind you reach past to hit too. The lack of mobility seems to be quite suitable, since wielding a spear two-handed fits better with DnD's normal 'facing everywhere, moving and turning fast' kind of combat. I don't imagine you can reposition yourself as easily when you've only got one hand on your spear. Actually, modelling this with facing rules would be a good idea, but I'm not going there with this just now. (Do note that the two benefits of this feat are separate; even without a qualifying spear, you can ready yourself in position in order to let allies behind strike past you.)

Mobile Spear Formation [General]
You are thoroughly drilled in the tactics of spear formation combat.
Prerequisites
Proficient with spear or longspear, Offensive Mobility, Shield Proficiency, Spear Formation
Benefits
When you are readied to gain the benefits of the Spear Formation feat, you may move up to half your speed without needing to take a move action to ready yourself again.
Analysis
Wondering if that should be your full speed rather than half. Now you can charge and still have your shield ready!

Offensive Mobility [General]
You are always on the move when you're on the attack.
Benefit
When using the full attack action, you may take a five-foot step at any point during your action.
Normal
You may only take a five-foot step before or after making a full attack.
Special
A fighter may select Offensive Mobility as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Analysis
A nice, simple, not very powerful feat that should lead into good things: the same rationale behind Dodge. Not sure whether to let you step between Cleaves, though. It can't hurt, right? It's just a special case, since it needn't be a full attack. Come to think of it, though, for all I said it's a nice, simple feat, it's useless unless and until you get multiple attacks. That means two-weapon fighting or BAB +6. Suddenly, this has put a big damper on my fun...

Mobile Assault [General]
You roam across the battlefield, leaving carnage in your wake.
Prerequisites
Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Offensive Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit
When using the full attack action, you may freely mix in movement between your attacks, as long as you do not move a total distance greater than your speed.
Special
A fighter may select Mobile Assault as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Analysis
Of all of these feats, this one is the one I'm most sure I've seen done before. Note that there's no restriction on armour, unlike its prerequisite Spring Attack. I'm thinking about making a note to the effect that you can still avoid one AoO, as per Spring Attack, if you're in less than heavy armour. Still not sure on the Cleave question.

Valiant Charge [General]
You can really make a charge count when going toe-to-toe with the enemy.
Prerequisites
Str 13, Improved Overrun, Offensive Mobility, Power Attack
Benefit
When on foot and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a foot lance).
Special
A fighter may select Valiant Charge as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Analysis
I was comparing to Spirited Charge while making this, of course. Improved Overrun filled the gap of an extra prerequisite; it fit closely enough thematically (compare Ride-By Attack -> Spirited Charge), and was in the Power Attack tree as I desired.

Weapons

Foot Lance (Two-handed Martial weapon)
1d6 (Small), 1d8 (Medium), 20/x3, reach weapon
8gp, 8lb.

A foot lance deals double damage when used while charging on foot. It has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.

You can convert a mounted lance to a foot lance with a DC 10 Craft (Weaponsmithing) check and 1 minute. Doing this with a masterwork lance ruins its masterwork quality unless you beat DC 20. You cannot convert a foot lance into a mounted lance.

Rationale: Some years ago I read about how English knights fought unmounted at a certain battle in the Hundred Years' War, cutting down their lances to be more effective on foot, and so did more in the battle than the French knights who remained mounted and were unable to fight effectively in adverse weather conditions and a thick melee. At least, I think that's how it went. Anyway, the pertinent point is that some mounted knights cut their lances down a bit to make them easier to wield when they fought on foot, and this was apparently not uncommon. I wanted a weapon that modelled this; the normal lance is just a glorified longspear when you're not mounted.

Pike (Two-handed Martial weapon)
1d6 (Small), 1d8 (Medium), 20/x3, reach weapon (special)
8gp, 12lb.

A pike has exceptional reach. It triples rather than doubles your natural reach, so a typical Small or Medium creature can hit opponents 15 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away. (A Large creature with a pike could hit opponents at 25 to 30 feet, and so on.) If you use a ready action to set a pike against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character.

Rationale: It's a pike. It's a dirty great spear that lets even more ranks of spearmen reach past each other to get at the enemy. What's to explain? Oh, but while you can benefit from the no-cover benefit of the Spear Formation feat, you can't wield it one-handed. I might change that though; my archaeologist fiancée was telling me today about how Alexander's phalangists wielded spears 20 feet long, in tandem with a shield.

elliott20
2007-06-08, 10:15 AM
I like these feats. great style, and it fits well into my concept of a good fighter fix: by giving them more feats to choose from.

Matthew
2007-06-08, 10:55 AM
I am on board with the Shield and Spear aspect of Spear Formation, but ignoring the -4 penalty an interposing character creates seems a bit much all in one Feat. A Melee version of Precise Shot might be easier.

Mobile Spear Formation makes no sense to me as written. A Readied Action interacting with a Move Action I can just about grasp, but how does that facilitate a Charge Action?

Offensive Mobility is a standard rule (though plenty of people think it isn't, so you're not alone):


Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.


Yeah, I have seen Mobile Assault done before. I think the last time was in Golthur's Combat Manoeuvres System. I think it also is a Class Feature of the Dervish and/or Tempest Prestige Classes. Not my cup of tea, really. Full Attack either consumes all your time in a round or it doesn't, seems wrong to make a Feat that like this that doesn't have Whirlwind as a prerequisite... [joking]. Still, it seems fairly powerful as these things go. If that's alright with you, fair enough, but I probably wouldn't want to see such things in my own 3.x games (especially if it happens to be part of a build with Multi Weapon Fighting).

Valiant Charge is a hard one to okay. It's just another Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Max Out Power Attack Damage Feat, but now without a Horse, to me. Again, relative to the power of the campaign it may or may not be okay. Not something I would particulary want to see, but I could see it being fine.

So, Lances already work on foot, they just become Two Handed Weapons without the Charging or Readied benefits. The 'cut down' Lances of the Hundred years War would be represented by Lances without Reach (i.e. Long Spears become Spears). I think Foot Lance is a reasonably good idea - though Short Lance and Long lance make a lot of sense (in 3.0 Light Lance and Heavy Lance). Still, I worry about the rules surrounding them with regard to Charging and such, seems like just a way to be Mounted without a Mount.

Pike I have seen before. According to Crystal Keep it appeared in Dragon #331, p. 24, under the (misleading) name Awl Pike. Hell, I did my own version, which is almost exactly the same.

[Weapon] Short, Light, Long, Heavy and Great (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10996) (a number of 'new' weapons, including the Great Spear)
[House] Simple Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31637) (Alternate Stats)
[House] Martial Weapons (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31788) (Alternate Stats)
[Feat] Spear Charge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31249) (Just added for completeness, since you commented in that Thread).

Peregrine
2007-06-08, 11:31 AM
I am on board with the Shield and Spear aspect of Spear Formation, but ignoring the -4 penalty an interposing character creates seems a bit much all in one Feat. A Melee version of Precise Shot might be easier.

It'd be easy enough to split it into two feats, but then are they worth it? The no-cover benefit is pretty conditional.


Offensive Spear formation makes no sense to me as written. A Readied Action interacting with a Move Action I can just about grasp, but how does that facilitate a Charge Action?

You mean Mobile Spear Formation? There's no ready action involved. I'm just struggling to find a word other than 'ready' to describe what you do with that feat. You use a move action to, err, 'prepare' yourself. You lose your 'prepared' state whenever you move. Mobile Spear Formation lets you move without losing your 'prepared' state, which means you can (among other movement-related things) charge while benefiting from being 'prepared'.


Yeah, I have seen Mobile Assault done before. I think it was in Golthur's Combat Manoeuvres System, last time time. I think it also is a Class Feature of the Dervish and/or Tempest Prestige Classes. Not my cup of tea, really. Full Attack either consumes all your time in a round or it doesn't, seems wrong to make a Feat that like this that doesn't have Whirlwind as a prerequisite... [joking]. Still, it seems fairly powerful as these things go. If that's alright with you, fair enough, but I probably wouldn't want to see such things in my own 3.x games (especially if it happens to be part of a build with Multi Weapon Fighting).

It just seemed the logical goal of an offense-oriented movement feat tree.


Offensive Mobility is a standard rule:

Now how did I get that so wrong? :smallfrown: I really thought you couldn't interpose movement between attacks. Huh. Back to the drawing board...


Valiant Charge is a hard one to okay. It's just another Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Max Out Power Attack Damage Feat, but now without a Horse, to me. Again, relative to the power of the campaign it may or may not be okay. Not something I would particulary want to see, but I could see it being fine.

I don't actually know anything about the feats in question, I just see their names bandied about a lot around here. But yes, it's basically Spirited Charge without a mount, and therefore with different prerequisites.


So, Lances already work on foot, they just become Two Handed Weapons without the Charging or Readied benefits.

Glorified longspears, like I said. They cost more and you can't set them against a charge.


The 'cut down' Lances of the Hundred years War would be represented by Lances without Reach (i.e. Long Spears become Spears). I think Foot Lance is a reasonably good idea - though Short Lance and Long lance make a lot of sense (in 3.0 Light Lance and Heavy Lance). Still, I worry about the rules surrounding them with regard to Charging and such, seems like just a way to be Mounted without a Mount.

There's an idea: make foot lances non-reach weapons. Might just do that.

Matthew
2007-06-08, 11:40 AM
Yep, I meant Mobile Spear Formation (my edit key is being slow and you weren't online when I started editing, so I was being lazy... oh well!

I'll leave this for a few minutes in case you want to address any other points I edited in after you posted.

Peregrine
2007-06-08, 11:51 AM
Nah, I already edited in the replies I wanted to make. :smallsmile:

Okay, here's the plan. Offensive Mobility becomes the ability to five-foot-step between multiple attacks, up to (say) half your speed. Or something like that. Its place at the root of the feat tree is taken by something else. What? I'm not sure. Maybe some sort of movement-related attack bonus, a +1 under certain circumstances... move at least your speed in a round and get a +1 to attacks?

Matthew
2007-06-08, 12:22 PM
Heh, heh.

Okay, here's what I know...

Leap Attack, Headlong Rush and a couple of other Feats multiply Power Attack Damage. Exactly how they do this is not clear, as there is some debate whether 2:1 becomes 3:1 or 4:1, depending on who you ask and the wording of the feat in question. The problem is that this is then multiplied by one another, Charges and Critical Hits. The big problem is Shock Trooper, which lets you trade AC for AB during a Charge. The end result? Multiply as much damage as you can until you reach silly numbers. A favoured method is through a Lance and Spirited Charge. The above Feats and Equipment make it possible without a Mount, so I they leave me a little worried.

Spear Formation. Yeah, it might be true that it's not worth dividing the Feat. I mainly had the Dragon Magazine Feat Pike and Shield in mind, which is even lower powered. Personally, I would just let Characters use Spears and Shields in combination without a Feat [maybe via Martial Weapon Proficiency (Spear), so it remains restricted to the Martial Classes].

Mobile Spear Formation: Yes, using Ready as terminology is mighty confusing in D&D. Charging is a Full Round Action, so you still wouldn't be able to perform one. I just wouldn't worry about this. Let Characters use their Spears in one hand and allow Spear Formation to work under all conditions, do you really need two Feats to accomplish it?

Mobile Assault. Yeah, I guess it is really. I'm not a big fan of the Full Attack aspect of D&D 3.x, but I don't see much of a problem with this Feat, except that every Melee Fighter will want it, which suggests overpoweredness.

Lances. I never really understood the decision to divide Lances from Spears. If you look at the iconography and nomenclature of the Medieval period you'll soon notice that specialised lances were a late development and not much different from Spears to begin with. If it were up to me, I would fold Lances into Spears and not worry about it any further.

Okay, Offensive Mobility. To me, if you are going to do this, it should be a Feat Tree or Scaling Feat that allows Full Attack + Move Action at BAB 6, 11 and 16, each iteration being made available at that BAB. If you want it to work with the Charge Action, you must specify.

Peregrine
2007-06-08, 12:50 PM
Leap Attack, Headlong Rush and a couple of other Feats multiply Power Attack Damage. Exactly how they do this is not clear, as there is some debate whether 2:1 becomes 3:1 or 4:1, depending on who you ask and the wording of the feat in question. The problem is that this is then multiplied by Charges and Critical Hits. The big problem is Shock Trooper, which lets you trade AC for AB during a Charge. The end result? Multiply as much damage as you can until you reach silly numbers. A favoured method is through a Lance and Spirited Charge. The above Feats and Equipment make it possible without a Mount, so I they leave me a little worried.

Point taken. But I now maintain that the problem is those feats, not mine. :smalltongue:


Spear Formation. Yeah, it might be true that it's not worth dividing the Feat. I mainly had the Dragon Magazine Feat Pike and Shield in mind, which is even lower powered. Personally, I would just let Characters use Spears and Shields in combination without a Feat [maybe via Martial Weapon Proficiency (Spear), so it remains restricted to the Martial Classes].

This is a lot like the idea I had a while back: extra benefits through proficiency. But then I started jotting ideas on the train and came up with what I put here tonight. (And you can see the holes where I didn't have a rules reference handy.)


Mobile Spear Formation: Yes, using Ready as terminology is mighty confusing in D&D. Charging is a Full Round Action, so you still wouldn't be able to perform one. I just wouldn't worry about this. Let Characters use their Spears in one hand and allow Spear Formation to work under all conditions, do you really need two Feats to accomplish it?

Still stuck on what else to call it. 'Prepare' is working okay for explaining, but you don't 'prepare' in combat. You get ready, you set yourself (both words associated with ready actions), you... take a stance (Tome of Battle stole this one), you... assume the position... :smalleek:

Aaaanyway. Of course you can do a charge. Round 1, you use your move action to 'prepare'. Round 2, you charge. Or heck, round 1, you use your standard action to begin a full-round action, being a charge.


Mobile Assault. Yeah, I guess it is really. I'm not a big fan of the Full Attack aspect of D&D 3.x, but I don't see much of a problem with this Feat, except that every Melee Fighter will want it, which suggests overpoweredness.

Hmm... I didn't think it through enough. I'm envisioning moving, hitting, moving, hitting... but people are going to take it just so they can move, then full attack (and possibly move away again). Back to the drawing board on this, too.


Lances. I never really understood the decision to divide Lances from Spears. If you look at the iconography and nomenclature of the Medieval period you'll soon notice that specialised lances were a late development and not much different from Spears to begin with. If it were up to me, I would fold Lances into Spears and not worry about it any further.

Yeah... but eh, you work with what you're given. I'm writing additions to the system, they're more palatable if you don't take anything away in the process.


Okay, Offensive Mobility. To me, if you are going to do this, it should be a Feat Tree or Scaling Feat that allows Full Attack + Move Action at BAB 6, 11 and 16, each iteration being made available at that BAB. If you want it to work with the Charge Action, you must specify.

Sorry, I don't quite follow... what are these iterations tha-- wait, I got it. At BAB +6, you get two attacks with a move action, three at BAB +11, four at BAB +16?

Matthew
2007-06-08, 01:02 PM
Point taken. But I now maintain that the problem is those feats, not mine. :smalltongue:

I quite agree, though this slightly contradicts what you say below about working with what you're given...:smallwink:


This is a lot like the idea I had a while back: extra benefits through proficiency. But then I started jotting ideas on the train and came up with what I put here tonight. (And you can see the holes where I didn't have a rules reference handy.)

Righto. It's a fairly common Spear and Shield rule, as far as I am aware. Some prefer it to be an Exotic Feat.


Still stuck on what else to call it. 'Prepare' is working okay for explaining, but you don't 'prepare' in combat. You get ready, you set yourself (both words associated with ready actions), you... take a stance (Tome of Battle stole this one), you... assume the position... :smalleek:

Heh, yeah. I think part of the confusion is because it is just unnecessary. Slinging or unslinging a Shield is already legislated for, releasing one hand from a Two Handed Weapon is a Free Action in the FAQ (I think). Assuming a 'Stance' is I suppose the way to formalise this. It just seems like a lot of bother when you could just make it conditional.


Aaaanyway. Of course you can do a charge. Round 1, you use your move action to 'prepare'. Round 2, you charge. Or heck, round 1, you use your standard action to begin a full-round action, being a charge.

Ah, right. I see what you're on about. They have to take this Move Action every Round? Seems harsh.


Yeah... but eh, you work with what you're given. I'm writing additions to the system, they're more palatable if you don't take anything away in the process.

True enough. A favoured solution is Power Creep [i.e. creating the Short, Long and Great 'War Spear', all the benefits of Spear and Lance, none of the bother...


Sorry, I don't quite follow... what are these iterations tha-- wait, I got it. At BAB +6, you get two attacks with a move action, three at BAB +11, four at BAB +16?
Yeah, depending on whether you use one Feat that Scales or three Feats that form a Tree.

Peregrine
2007-06-08, 01:27 PM
I quite agree, though this slightly contradicts what you say below about working with what you're given...:smallwink:

Not at all. Nobody's given me those books. :smallbiggrin: What I'm working with is the SRD, and the lance is in there.


Ah, right. I see what you're on about. They have to take this Move Action every Round? Seems harsh.

No, they don't... That's what I thought you thought, because you said they couldn't charge, which means that you got the impression that they couldn't use a full-round action while prepared. Once prepared, you stay prepared, unless you move. And the Mobile feat overcomes that.

Matthew
2007-06-08, 01:42 PM
Hah, hah. Okay.

Right, I see what you're on about now (I think). Here's how it break down, as far as I can see.

Spear Formation Options:

Get into formation (Move Action) + Attack (Standard Action)
Move Full Speed (Move Action ) + Get into formation (Move Action in place of Standard Action)

Mobile Spear Formation Options:

Get into Formation (Move Action), then:

Move Half Speed (Move Action) + Standard Action
Charge Action (Half Speed) - bear in mind only the front rank will make contact...

Doesn't seem worth a Feat to me, but I could be wrong.

[Edit] What happens when you are out of formation? What are the consequences? Do you drop your Spear/Shield? Are you simply unable to Attack with the Spear? [Shield Bash time]. In fact, I could see a formation charging with Spiked Shields, then in the following turn assuming formation and making an attack. If the formations are level 6, I can see this feat being more useful, but I suppose at least they would retain their AC Bonus.

Peregrine
2007-06-21, 07:54 PM
[Edit] What happens when you are out of formation? What are the consequences? Do you drop your Spear/Shield? Are you simply unable to Attack with the Spear? [Shield Bash time]. In fact, I could see a formation charging with Spiked Shields, then in the following turn assuming formation and making an attack. If the formations are level 6, I can see this feat being more useful, but I suppose at least they would retain their AC Bonus.

Oops, missed these questions!

If you're not 'in formation', you can't attack with a (two-handed) spear in one hand, as normal. So yeah, a shield bash would be a very good backup. :smallsmile:

I am of course interested in any better ideas for this sort of feat. Like I said with the rationale for the original feat, the basic idea is: Yes, historical troops could wield long spears in one hand and a shield in the other, but they basically faced one way, unlike D&D's assumption that combatants are able to face and attack in any direction. Unless you're going to use facing rules, you can't really model this in D&D. So I've taken limited mobility to be an acceptable substitute.

(I'm working on better ideas for the Offensive Mobility tree. :smallwink:)

Matthew
2007-06-21, 08:17 PM
I dunno, is really so worrisome? I mean, realistically speaking, a Character surrounded by eight opponents is in a worse position than one flanked by two, but he doesn't receive any further AC penalties, is still free to use his Shield Bonus against all of them and attack any which one of them he chooses. It's just one of those abstractions of the game. A much worse abuse of suspension of disbelief is a Greater Many Shot that shoots Arrows each in a different direction!

Phalanxes were capable of defending themselves from multiple directions, they just didn't like it when they got flanked and were prone to panic (at least, so ran the explanation last time I heard it, we really have no clue how Phalanxes really functioned or why they had a reputation for being vulnerable in this way).