Wolverine vs. A Jedi Master [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-08, 01:39 PM

It's regular Jedi Adepts and Knights you see getting creamed all the time in the Star Wars Universe. Not Masters. A Knight versus Wolverine would be a lot more fair. Masters are not only flawless combatants that need to be fought by other Force-wielding Masters to defeat (their precog abilities are too strong, they'll dodge everything unless it can be suppressed by another strong Force user), but each one seems to have their own unusual strengths in the Force that can be truly devastating. Poor writing aside, supposedly Wolverine can be killed by decapitating him. A lightsaber could do that, no problem (the spine's held together by ligaments, ya know). And Wolverine's going to have one hell of a time blocking a super fast precog with a weapon that cuts super advanced metals like paper.

In order to make this even possible for Wolverine, the Jedi in question cannot be a Master. At Knight level, the Jedi still edges out Wolverine with limited precognitive fighting skills (this can be beaten by a normal person at this level, but it's still no picnic- you'll have to be smart about fooling him), a weapon without peer and skill with it to match, and telekinesis strong enough to hold Wolverine in place for awhile or chuck him if he gets too close. At Adept level or untrained, Wolverine takes an advantage because the precognitive skills are deeply flawed, he'll have trouble using his telekinesis on larger objects like Wolverine himself, and his lightsaber skills will fail next to Wolverine's training.

A note on adamantium- Wolverine's adamantium skeleton can be crushed by strong enough cosmic forces or precise molecular rearrangement. Mundane means won't damage it.

A note on lightsabers- These things aren't just laser swords. They're imbued with the Force itself (a cosmic power), which is critical in giving the weapons their awe-inspiring destructive capacity. They can cut through even the densest alloys in Star Wars, all of which is beyond our scope in technology, in a matter of seconds. Even materials that resist lightsabers like cortosis can only stand against it for so long. Adamantium would probably stand up to it for a good while, but it likely couldn't work forever.

elliott20

2007-06-08, 01:56 PM

I'm just going to list their assets side by side

Jedi Master (seriously, we need to just pick one)

- force senses
- force enhanced speed
- force enhanced strength
- a blade that can cut through most metals in the universe save for a few.

Wolverine

- many many many years of martial arts training
- superhuman agility
- superhuman strength
- regen
- adamantite claws (or made of material appropriate to a weapon experiment project that has access to a crap ton of resources)

depending upon who writes wolverine, his superhuman speed can go from beastial fast to dragonball Z fast. However, the same thing can be said of the jedi master. Both of their physical enhancements can vary depending upon who writes it. So right there, we can't REALLY use this as a way of justifying who will have the better edge. (in a way, you can almost say they cancel each other out)

Logan's martial arts training probably means he will have an immense amount of experience fighting just about every conceivable foe out there, which means if he has been doing his homework, most warriors will not be able to match him just by sheer experience.

However, the Jedi's precognition means that a Jedi with enough training can pretty much read Logan like an open book. So right there, with matching speed and strength, the Jedi master already has the advantage by virtue of being able to anticipate move Logan will make.

However, Logan has one very huge advantage that if he uses it right, can easily change the battle for him - his near immortality. His regen factor, depending upon his writer, can either regen him from basically just a skeleton to making him take 3 days to regen a bullet wound. If he leans on the EXTREMELY FAST regen side, he could potentially attack with abandon and LET the Jedi Master take a free shot at him while he continues to attack despite having just taken a lightsabre to the neck. I think it's reasonable to assume that the jedi master, without any additional is going to know that logan can regen an arm in a matter of seconds and that a single stroke might not be enough.

So, basically, while the Jedi's lightsabre is occupied cutting up some other part of Wolverine, wolverine would just atke his available claw and stick it into the Jedi Master. It's probably the only chance he's really got.

On the other hand, if the Jedi master is fully aware of what wolverine can do before the engagement, wolverine is toast.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-08, 02:15 PM

Teloric

2007-06-08, 02:24 PM

A Jedi could simply use the Force to pick up Wolverine and hold him in mid air. Now Wolverine is stuck and can't do more than flail around.

Cut off Wolverine's head, and it's game over. And a lightsaber can do that, whether it can harm adamantium or not...

Brutah

2007-06-08, 02:25 PM

my original point was both at full benefit of there writers

so yes it would be badass wolvie laughing at lukes robot hand i should think

ultra regen for the win

Selrahc

2007-06-08, 02:30 PM

ZeroNumerous

2007-06-08, 03:06 PM

First off, which version of wolverine?

In civil war he regenerated his entire body in a mater of minutes.

If we go with Adamantium can't be cut by a light saber then wolverine wins, because he can't be killed. So he will win eventually.

Don't forget that, post-skeleton rip, Wolverine was able to regenerate the loss of his entire skeletal structure in a few seconds. Without his adamantium, he's actually more of a threat because he just can't die.

ravenkith

2007-06-08, 03:09 PM

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-08, 03:10 PM

Adamantium being cut by a lightsaber is pretty ridiculous, considering it tanks massive ammounts of damage without breaking. (A lightsaber being better at smashing stuff than the Hulk? Better than Mjolnir? better than a nuclear bomb? Better than innumerable killy lasers? I don't see it.)

Agreed.

However that doesn't mean hes unkillable by a lightsaber. It just means hes substantially harder to kill. Slicing him in the chest for example, goes right through his guts and makes a nice mess of his internal organ. The skeleton is a framework for the body but it does not give one hundred per cent coverage of it.

All of the flesh and muscle in his body has been burned off, down to just metal, and wolverine was fully healed in a matter of minutes. This is his current healing level.

Theres also the fact that bones have non bone bits holding them onto one another. And those non bone bits are not adamantium. A precise hit in the right place, could seperate the two bones. It would be a lot harder than normal, and I'm not sure how many jedis have the combat and medical nouse to be thinking that scheme up in the heat of battle against a berserker.

Debatable. Xavier said the only way to kill wolverine is to decapitate him and separate his head from his spinal cord. That can't be done with his adamantium skeleton. So he might loose the adamantium in all of his body except his skull and spinal cord, but that is all he needs.

He also regens faster without the adamantium.

A jedi master though, would have a lot of other stuff to go on than lightsaber combat. I mean Luke can casually control asteroids at a point in the fiction. Kick up lightning attacks that kill armies.

Yeah, Luke might be able to do it and he could slow wolverine down with little or no problem, but besides him. No force user, even at the master level, stands a chance.

Against say... Obi Wan though, Logan has a solid chance. He wouldn't be brainwashed by mind tricks. Hes a better fighter, whos been around for longer. Hes almost(Emphasis on that though. Obi is still quicker) as quick, and has fought far scarier opponents. I'd probably still give it to Obi, as precognition and reach, coupled with higher mobility could give him a win.

Why do you say Obi is quicker? Wolverine has dodged Cyclops optic blast at point blank range and is supposed to have reflexes as good as spidermans. His reach doesn't matter much either do to the regen. Wolverine can take the hits, if he can't stop the blade on his claws.

Depends on how uber Logans regen is on that particular day though. Civil war style regeneration from a skeleton in minutes, and I doubt Obi is dishing out the punishment quickly enough.

Civil War style regen is the newest most cannon regen we have to go on. If a saber can't cut adamantium wolverine wins, with a possible win going to Luke or someone of similar skill and power.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-08, 03:16 PM

Jedi wins.

Precognition.

The only reason the Jedi were able to be taken down by clone troopers (many of them felt it coming a few seconds before the actual betrayal, Yoda a full minute and a half), was because the jedi were horribly outnumbered, and unable to deflect that many blaster bolts.

Wolverine never lays a hand (or claw) on the Jedi.

Wolverine has reflexes as fast as spidermans. That negates the advantage of precognition.

Jedi force grabs Wolverine, holds him up in mid air (Telekinesis people, like magneto, but works on ANYONE), turns wolverine upside down and holds his head under a nearby body of water until he can no longer sense the life with the clawed one.

How long can a Jedi hold up the weight that is wolverine? He has a hundred pound skeleton, plus all his muscle. He weighs a fairly large amount.

Wolverine drowns, Jedi wins. (Yes, wolverine does need to breathe, as has been established on a number of occasions).
Again, Xavier would have mentioned it. The only way he knew of to kill wolverine was by separating his skull and spinal cord.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-08, 03:28 PM

Inter-vertabral discs hold the spine together and afford the spine flexibility and prevents shock damage and grinding that would damage the spinal cord, which is a bundle of highly sensitive and easily broken nerves. These discs aren't all that thin, either. A lightsaber, meanwhile, is actually very thin- most of what you see of it is due to a coronal energy effect. And due to the force of a blowcoming from a weapon that would canonically slice through the non-adamantium with ease in less than half a second, the saber is likely to slip straight into and out of one of them once it collides with the adamantium spinal cage as the applied force finds an exit. Precognitive abilities, better reach, and super speed let the Jedi get around Wolverine, no sweat. He loses his head.

Aotrs Commander

2007-06-08, 03:30 PM

ravenkith

2007-06-08, 03:39 PM

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-08, 03:58 PM

Jedi are 'quick enough' to interpose a sword between themselves and a blaster bolt, which travels at close to the speed of light, with enough time to figure out the exact angle necessary to deflect said bolt back at the enemy that fired it.

In point of fact, they are simply told where to put their blade by the living force early enough to spare their life, if they are sufficiently focused.

Exactly, their reflexes aren't superhumanely fast. They just move before the attack ever starts. Wolverine doesn't know in advance what to do but his reflexes are superhumanely fast.

Jedi have still been shot. Their precognitive powers are great but they are limited.

Wolverine can dodge an optic blast from an opponent whose moves he knows, when he knows exactly where the point of attack will be coming from.

And he dodges it in the blink of an eye. He has teh same reflexes as spiderman.

Jedi are 'faster', in that, the force will put them where they need to be, before they need to be there.

Not always. Jedi vs Jedi fights would result in no hits, ever, if that was the case. The force essentially tells them where an attack is going to come from, they still have to respond with split second timing. Wolverine moves faster than they do by several orders of magnitude. They largely cancel each other out.

It doesn't matter how fast Wolverine is, the Jedi will always be warned in time by the force.
See above. If that was the case then no Jedi would have ever been killed by a blaster bolt and no Jedi vs. Jedi fight would ever have any hits.

The only reason the clones had a chance to overwhelm the Jedi with firepower was because Sidious (and the dark side) were clouding the Jedi senses, and had been from very early on.

Jedi have been killed outside of that. Even masters. The force does not confer immunity to blaster bolts or anything else for that matter. It just tells the jedi what is about to happen in advance.

Closet_Skeleton

2007-06-08, 03:59 PM

Hello? Lightsabre? Need I say more?

*gets killed by the power of Canada*

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-08, 04:03 PM

Adamantium can't be altered after it has cooled. Lightsabers have proven unable to cut certain materials. Adamantium can't be cut by lightsabers.

And if you remove the adamantium then wolverine is actually more powerful. His entire body can regen almost instantly. Literally as you are cutting off his arm it is healing behind the saber.

Closet_Skeleton

2007-06-08, 04:10 PM

And if you remove the adamantium then wolverine is actually more powerful. His entire body can regen almost instantly. Literally as you are cutting off his arm it is healing behind the saber.

Depends on the writer/artist. Superman is the extreme example but everyone is affected by power interepretation to a degree.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-08, 04:16 PM

Jedis are superhumanly quick, though.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_speed

Depending on how deep you delve into EU material, there's very little that a Master couldn't accomplish. Crazy enough, Masters aren't even at the top of the food chain. There's still two ranks higher.

ravenkith

2007-06-08, 04:18 PM

Enh, Force drowning still works.

Selrahc

2007-06-08, 04:55 PM

All of the flesh and muscle in his body has been burned off, down to just metal, and wolverine was fully healed in a matter of minutes. This is his current healing level.

No. That is a recent example of something he has done.

HE was also taken down for longer than that by a single bullet in a comic a little over a year ago. Back at the beginning of the current wolverine series he got taken down for fifteen minutes(More than enough time for someone to really dismember the corpse) by a few bullets.

Wolverine has massively variable levels of healing. Just because an example is recent, doesn't mean its what he has in any given fight. That comes down to the power of plot.

And like I said, if you give him his uber civl war level regeneration, then hes probably going to win.

I mean hell, Wolvie has walked through the heart of a nuclear reactor before.

Debatable. Xavier said the only way to kill wolverine is to decapitate him and separate his head from his spinal cord. That can't be done with his adamantium skeleton. So he might loose the adamantium in all of his body except his skull and spinal cord, but that is all he needs.

I haven't seen the xavier protocols. But if he said that was the only method to permanently kill Wolverine, then he was being uncharacteristically foolish.

Hell, I can think of a half dozen just off the top of my head. Blast him into space. Toss him into a volcano. Get a flesh eating virus that cleans out his insides. Throw him into a vat of acid. Completely wipe his brain of all conscious thought. Morph him into another being.

OR just trap him under a mountain or something similar. Bottom of the ocean.

Yeah, Luke might be able to do it and he could slow wolverine down with little or no problem, but besides him. No force user, even at the master level, stands a chance.

Well there were a good handful of force users on a similar power level to Luke. The Emperor in sme of the fiction shows some fairly awesome power, same with many of the old republic jedis, or Sith founders.

A regular force user like Obi Wan, or Mace Windu, stands a decent chance in a stand up knock down fight. If they win this stand up knock down fight, then they have the ability to butcher his corpse at their leisure.

The contest isn't whether wolverines hacked up corpse can knit itself together and go fight them. Its who is better in a fight.

Why do you say Obi is quicker? Wolverine has dodged Cyclops optic blast at point blank range and is supposed to have reflexes as good as spidermans. His reach doesn't matter much either do to the regen. Wolverine can take the hits, if he can't stop the blade on his claws.

Having less reach against a foe who can push you backwards at will is pretty important.

As to the reflexes, I'd ask you where you got this idea that he is fast as Spidey. Spidey can catch bullets in his hands, Wolvie can't even dodge them.

EDIT: This is what I get for leaving a post to go get food. Ninja'd in the extreme. Sigh.

Mewtarthio

2007-06-08, 05:06 PM

Well there were a good handful of force users on a similar power level to Luke. The Emperor in sme of the fiction shows some fairly awesome power, same with many of the old republic jedis, or Sith founders.

I think we can leave the Sith out of this. Against a non-Force Sensitive like Wolverine, some of the Sith Lords are pretty much guaranteed a win. Darth Nihilus is practically Galactus as far as Wolverine is concerned (of course, in any actual fight with Nihilus, all the superheroes in the Marvel Universe would be present... that'd be an interesting fight--Marvel 616 vs Nihilus--given that canonically Visas and the Exile were the only two people who could have stood before Nihilus and survived, but I digress). Let's not forget that Force Lightning is seriously toned down in all the video games for balance purposes: Taking the movies as the ultimate canon, Dark Side Lightning spells instant incapacitation for anyone unable to block it with either the Force or a lightsaber (the latter probably requires a trained Jedi Knight, while the former may very well be only something a Master can attempt). Yeah, Anakin got back up in Episode II (that movie's presentation of Dark Side Lightning always bugged me), but that's just because Dooku had to focus on Kenobi as well: If he'd kept a steady flow of lightning on Skywalker, the brash Jedi would have never had the chance to become Vader.

ZeroNumerous

2007-06-08, 06:58 PM

Nihilius? What a pansy. Exar Kun. Marvel superheroes are jokes when the very live and power in your body can be torn away with a thought. Nihilius wasn't half the danger Exar Kun presented. Hell, Exar Kun absorbed the entire lifeforce of a planet, by himself, without any of the pansy little 'I eat Force to live' explanation Nihilius had. Exar Kun did it just because he could. If we drag Sith into this, then any of the 'Old' Sith auto-win on the basis of being immeasurably powerful bringers of death.

Selrahc

2007-06-08, 07:07 PM

Theres still a good ammount of Marvel heroes who could deal with that. The Silver Surfer to just randomly think of a name.

Wolverine however, would be very much doomed.

Beleriphon

2007-06-08, 08:11 PM

Jedi are 'quick enough' to interpose a sword between themselves and a blaster bolt, which travels at close to the speed of light, with enough time to figure out the exact angle necessary to deflect said bolt back at the enemy that fired it.

You and I clearly have different concepts of the speed of light. Blast shots actually move slower than subsonic pistol rounds, in fact slower than most arrows fired from a moderately powerful bow recurve bow. You can see the blaster bolts move from the blaster to the target, this is pretty clearly not the speed of light.

Vuzzmop

2007-06-08, 08:45 PM

Wolverine's mind is highly resilient to lower powered forms of psionics, so mind tricks wouldn't be worth squat. However, a Jedi Master's telekinesis could easily hold off Wolverines assault for a short period of time, while we can assume that if both lived in the same continuity and universe, adamantium would be able to resist a lightsaber in short bursts. You can count on it being a long fight, with the endurance of a Jedi and Wolverine's healing factor, but if the Jedi can break wolverine's neck with a force crush, severing the head from the body should be enough to end the fight ( Xavier protocols, anyone?), although a Jedi would only do this in a definate fight to the death.

Seraph

2007-06-08, 09:36 PM

How long can a Jedi hold up the weight that is wolverine? He has a hundred pound skeleton, plus all his muscle. He weighs a fairly large amount.

kid, Jedi Masters are capable of grabbing two stars and slamming them together hard enough to make them go supernova. drowning wolverine would be child's play.

and you all seem to think that the jedi master is just going to use brute force. here's the three step method to kill wolverine:

1) Telekinetically remove adamantium skeleton
2)telekinetically remove brain
3)telekinetically reduce brain to individual atomic constituents

bam. dead wolverine.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-08, 09:46 PM

Heh. Funny though. Jedi Master TK's Wolverine into the sun. Survive that.

Yeah, it's totally doable too. As Yoda put it, the size and weight of an object makes no difference to a Jedi Master's TK. They're only limited by their perceptions of the object. Wolverine appears to be a person- child's play to even most Padawan to move. Unless something interrupts the Jedi Master, Wolverine's not getting out of a Force TK unless the Jedi wants him to.

averagejoe

2007-06-08, 09:57 PM

How is this even a debate? I mean, wolvie's cool and all, but this matchup is extraordinarily one sided.

Do not be too proud of this turbulent terror you've constructed. The power of regeneration is insignificant next to the power of the force.

Seraph

2007-06-08, 10:10 PM

Do not be too proud of this turbulent terror you've constructed. The power of regeneration is insignificant next to the power of the force.

well, wolverine fans. ****. they refuse to believe he's anything less than omnipotent. why do you think they all believed he could kick lobo's ass despite all evidence to the contrary?

Haruspex

2007-06-08, 10:16 PM

This is a Jedi Master we are talking about, as others have mentioned. If you take the Clone Wars animated series as canon, they can get some serious beatdown going on. It depends on the specific Master, but I'd give it to the Jedi. Only because of the rank. A lower-ranking Jedi who isn't in full control of the Force might still lose.

kpenguin

2007-06-08, 11:41 PM

You and I clearly have different concepts of the speed of light. Blast shots actually move slower than subsonic pistol rounds, in fact slower than most arrows fired from a moderately powerful bow recurve bow. You can see the blaster bolts move from the blaster to the target, this is pretty clearly not the speed of light.

Indeed. I actually had a discussion with one of my friends over this. He claimed that a Jedi would not be able to deflect bullets for any amount of time because of their speed, which is clearly faster than a blast shot.

....

2007-06-08, 11:52 PM

Luke Skywalker is the quitisessial (sp) Jedi Master to me.

And he can crush the entire bridge of a Star Destroyer with his mind.

Luke dosn't even need to take out his lightsabre. He smashes Logan into a ball the size of a peanut before Logan even gets his claws out. If by some utterly moronic fast-healing thing Wolverine isn't dead yet, Luke shoots him into orbit for a day, then yanks him back down and lets the atmosphere burn him to a crisp.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-09, 12:01 AM

Bullets are surprisingly slower then you'd think, reaching anywhere between 650-900 mph (Star Wars blasters are admittedly far, far slower, appearing to be somewhere around 150-200 mph). That's certainly too fast for a human to hope to dodge it, but some of our fastest twitch reactions (like either closing or opening our eyes during a blink, though not both) can happen in nearly that time frame. Force speed would allow this twitch reaction to be a bit more useful and complicated, though it's true that this alone wouldn't allow a Jedi to stop a regular gun's shot with a lightsaber. He'd have to rely almost entirely on his precognitive abilities to know where the bullet's going to be and then make that twitch to get his lightsaber in the right place. An automatic weapon wouldn't help much since their line of fire will remain constant despite an increase in fire rate. Have two different guns shoot at the Jedi, though, and he won't likely have enough time to twitch in two seperate directions at once.

So just remember to go two-guns on any Jedis you encounter.

Haruspex

2007-06-09, 12:21 AM

Two automatic guns would be better. Recoil means that the path of the subsequent bullets will not be the same as the preceeding ones.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-09, 12:28 AM

That's true, but just two guns ought to be sufficient for the effect. Double automatics would make it faster and easier, though. Before anyone asks, I figured the recoil from automatics into my original analysis of the situation as well- though there will be variation in each bullet's trajectory, this will ultimately be stopped in the one-gun scenario because the rate of fire isn't as fast as a bullet's speed, so a Jedi using Force Speed and precognitive reflexes wouldn't have to work too much harder to block a single source like that since it's still, to them, one bullet at a time.

kpenguin

2007-06-09, 12:44 AM

Of course, a Jedi could always hope to simply stop bullets with the force. That could work. Or jam a gun simply by stopping a bullet while still in the barrel.

Solo

2007-06-09, 01:02 AM

Of course, a Jedi could always hope to simply stop bullets with the force. That could work. Or jam a gun simply by stopping a bullet while still in the barrel.

It all makes sense now!

http://www.darthgoat.com/images/neo_project/neo_bullets.jpg

Emperor Ing

2007-06-09, 04:41 AM

Now then, the lightsabers cah cut through juat about everything, even cortosis. Cortosis isnt 100% immune to lightsabers. Lightsabers would kill his claws. Jedis have superhigh reflexes, as evident in Episode I (sadly). I also think that lightsabers are longer than wolverines claws, so if i presumed that wolverines claws were immune to lightsabers, than he would still be dead before he could even reach the jedi master. Im sure a padawan could defeat wolverine too, though. Now if a jedi master unleashed the force on wolverine...uhh...dont expect him to come to work for a very long time.

Selrahc

2007-06-09, 05:26 AM

Now then, the lightsabers cah cut through juat about everything, even cortosis. Cortosis isnt 100% immune to lightsabers. Lightsabers would kill his claws.

But adamantium, is 100% immune to tactical nuclear strikes.
Lightsabers have never struck something of that alevel of durability.

Now remember the blast doors in episode one? The blade went in, but then it took work to move it around. If a lightsaber was as powerful as is being claimed, moving it in a circle would have been no work at all.

Jedis have superhigh reflexes, as evident in Episode I (sadly).

They aren't all that great really in Episode I.

Bullets are surprisingly slower then you'd think, reaching anywhere between 650-900 mph (Star Wars blasters are admittedly far, far slower, appearing to be somewhere around 150-200 mph). That's certainly too fast for a human to hope to dodge it, but some of our fastest twitch reactions (like either closing or opening our eyes during a blink, though not both) can happen in nearly that time frame.

Well I think a human could dodge it. Just not parry it.

That's true, but just two guns ought to be sufficient for the effect. Double automatics would make it faster and easier, though. Before anyone asks, I figured the recoil from automatics into my original analysis of the situation as well- though there will be variation in each bullet's trajectory, this will ultimately be stopped in the one-gun scenario because the rate of fire isn't as fast as a bullet's speed, so a Jedi using Force Speed and precognitive reflexes wouldn't have to work too much harder to block a single source like that since it's still, to them, one bullet at a time.

It may be one bullet at a time, but it would be with such tiny gaps that his hands would be in the wrong place to block the next one.

Honestly, a jedi getting shot with two automatic guns shouldn't try and aparry. He should just jump away from the line of fire.

I also think that lightsabers are longer than wolverines claws, so if i presumed that wolverines claws were immune to lightsabers, than he would still be dead before he could even reach the jedi master.

You know he could parry the saber before it hit him? Higher reach is useful, but it is not the be all end all of the fight.

Especially since just hitting Wolverine is not enough to kill him.

LCR

2007-06-09, 05:42 AM

Against say... Obi Wan though, Logan has a solid chance. He wouldn't be brainwashed by mind tricks. Hes a better fighter, whos been around for longer. Hes almost(Emphasis on that though. Obi is still quicker) as quick, and has fought far scarier opponents. I'd probably still give it to Obi, as precognition and reach, coupled with higher mobility could give him a win.

Depends on how uber Logans regen is on that particular day though. Civil war style regeneration from a skeleton in minutes, and I doubt Obi is dishing out the punishment quickly enough.

Against Obi-Wan? No chance, he almost killed Darth Vader and is the best swordsman there is, when defending. And what about Obi force-choking Wolverine? Can he regenerate from suffocation?

EvilJames

2007-06-09, 06:23 AM

Agreed.

All of the flesh and muscle in his body has been burned off, down to just metal, and wolverine was fully healed in a matter of minutes. This is his current healing level.

Debatable. Xavier said the only way to kill wolverine is to decapitate him and separate his head from his spinal cord. That can't be done with his adamantium skeleton. So he might loose the adamantium in all of his body except his skull and spinal cord, but that is all he needs.

He also regens faster without the adamantium.

Yeah, Luke might be able to do it and he could slow wolverine down with little or no problem, but besides him. No force user, even at the master level, stands a chance.

Why do you say Obi is quicker? Wolverine has dodged Cyclops optic blast at point blank range and is supposed to have reflexes as good as spidermans. His reach doesn't matter much either do to the regen. Wolverine can take the hits, if he can't stop the blade on his claws.

Civil War style regen is the newest most cannon regen we have to go on. If a saber can't cut adamantium wolverine wins, with a possible win going to Luke or someone of similar skill and power.

Wolverine loses to a master even if the saber can't cut his bones the master would easily cut the joints and fleshy cartalidges that hold them together. so his reach matters a great deal. Swipe hands, swipe head, find the hulk someone else to beat on, end of story. Or if they feel like playing then mind trick into leaving, simply use the force to hold him in the air and then do whatever it hardly matters at that point. Yes wolverine is fast but obi-wan dodges people with precognition wolvies reflexes aren't going to get him very far. Now spiderman could fight fire with fire in that department.

Emperor Ing

2007-06-09, 07:21 AM

...in the end, wolverine just cant compare to the lightsaber, the force, and jedi reflexes. Wolverines remains are sitting there, missing a hand or 2 and his head 1 or 2 feet in front of the body.

Selrahc

2007-06-09, 07:22 AM

Against Obi-Wan? No chance, he almost killed Darth Vader and is the best swordsman there is,

Obi was one of the best swordsmen, in a defensive style, in the Star Wars universe.

Wolverine is one of the most skilled fighters in multiple martial arts, sword styles, and other combat forms. He has mixed them into his own unque fighting style, and has been fighting for far longer than Obi.

Obi Wan beat Anakin, a rookie who he himself trained. He beat Greivous, who was quite frankly a gimmicky loser. And beat Maul, through something that was not really skill(Maul turns his back on a defeated opponent and gets sliced up). In the movies he really didn't do much that put him as all that impressive. Extended universe wise he does a lot more, but beating Anakin is not really a great achievement.

Wolverine however, has beaten foes far better than jedis. Hes fought superheroes. People who are invulnerable, who can teleport, turn you into stone if you look at them, people who can take a smart bomb to the face. Wolverine plays ina much nastier play ground than the star wars verse.

when defending. And what about Obi force-choking Wolverine? Can he regenerate from suffocation?

Choking is a dark side power. Obi doesn't do it. Even if he did try it, I think Wolverine would just try and push through it.

He can regenerate from suffocation though, yes.

Emperor Ing

2007-06-09, 07:26 AM

Nihilius? What a pansy. In the game, yup. he sucked, but COME ON!!! he flies the wreckage of 1 destroyed ship! Everything in his presence dies! How is that not badass?!

Hell, Exar Kun absorbed the entire lifeforce of a planet, by himself.
Ok i take that back. Thats just too badass! I knew he invented the doubesaber and was a great lightsaber warrior, but HE ACTUALLY DID THAT?!?:smalleek:

ZeroNumerous

2007-06-09, 08:49 AM

Ok i take that back. Thats just too badass! I knew he invented the doubesaber and was a great lightsaber warrior, but HE ACTUALLY DID THAT?!?:smalleek:

Exar Kun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exar_Kun). He's quite abit more badass than Nihilius.

As for Obi-Wan being a great swordsman.. If you accept the Clone Wars cartoon as canon, then beating Greivous is a serious achievement. Greivous killed two Jedi Masters, several Jedi Knights, and a Padawan by himself all at once. On top of that, he severely wounded another Master and was about to kill Ki-Adi-Mundi. He then went on to fight Mace Windu to a stand-still in a straight lightsaber-versus-lightsaber battle. So killing Greivous with a lightsaber proves that Obi-Wan is pretty good for a Jedi.

And guys, what if Wolverine doesn't have his skeleton? His regeneration power becomes obscene at that point. He may very well be able to regenerate a lightsaber wound while the blade was still inside him.

Wojiz

2007-06-09, 08:53 AM

A Jedi is just as fast as Wolverine, a Master maybe even faster, because Force Speed gives inhuman agility.

Therefore, a Jedi Master could hit Wolverine much easier than Wolverine could hit a Jedi Master, especially considering the reach of a lightsaber vs. claws.

Since Wolverine has nothing that could stop a lightsaber, and the Jedi Master has a much easier time of hitting Wolverine than vice versa, the Jedi Master must be assumed to win. Plus, regeneration won't help Wolverine if he's in a dozen pieces. And this is ignoring every other ability a Jedi Master has.

ravenkith

2007-06-09, 09:32 AM

Wolvie is already dead.

I killed him via 'force drowning'.

Selrahc

2007-06-09, 09:48 AM

As for Obi-Wan being a great swordsman.. If you accept the Clone Wars cartoon as canon, then beating Greivous is a serious achievement. Greivous killed two Jedi Masters, several Jedi Knights, and a Padawan by himself all at once.

And then got himself force crushed by Windu. Obi is fighting lame movie version Geivous, who really wasn't terribly scary.

Since Wolverine has nothing that could stop a lightsaber

Except for his claws, and entire skeletal structure. Which would do just fine.

and the Jedi Master has a much easier time of hitting Wolverine than vice versa,
Higher reach. thats about it.

Reach is important, but there really are many other factors in play in a fight. It doesn't make it "Much easier" it makes it slightly easier.

And Wolverine has a hell of a lot more combat experience than most(Probably more than any) jedis.

Plus, regeneration won't help Wolverine if he's in a dozen pieces.

Which doesn't happen, because Wolverine is both parrying and dodging blows struck at him, and is laced with an invulnerable metal, which makes it very hard to cut him up into pieces.

And this is ignoring every other ability a Jedi Master has.

Which in the movies, is not very much at all. A Jedi master doesn't get lightning, or choke. They get some telekinesis, which really isn't overwhelming.

Being able to push away your opponent is very handy. But it isn't the be all end all of a fight. Mind trick won't work on a guy who can put up heavy resistance to incredibly strong telepaths.

The rest of it is all ESP stuff that doesn't really matter.

ravenkith

2007-06-09, 10:19 AM

against one opponent, telekinesis is devastating: simply pick him up, hold him upside down, and dunk his head under water while making sure to stay out of reach.

'force drowning'.

Wolverine loses.

Selrahc

2007-06-09, 10:46 AM

against one opponent, telekinesis is devastating: simply pick him up, hold him upside down, and dunk his head under water while making sure to stay out of reach.

Whiuch never happens in the books, or the fiction ever.(Or at least not that I've seen. I've read a handful of star wars books, and a quite hefty ammount of comics.)

Nopbody gets dangled around helpless, except from by choke. Which a jedi doesn't use.

Theres also the fact that using the force is alla jedi can do, so TK might immobilize him, but the Jedi can't kill him and keep the TK up.(I have never seen a jedi use the force, while doing something like swordfighting at the same time)

Force drowning, relies on a Jedi knowing it, and using it. Light side jedis do not use the force to kill, because that is a tenet of the dark side. And we aren't talking about sith.

ravenkith

2007-06-09, 10:53 AM

Doesn't get done in the movies?

Yoda + Xwing.

Next objection?

Jedi Doesn't use the force to kill?

Enh. Whatever.

Fine, we just drown him til he's unconscious: logans been knocked out before: Jedi still wins.

(Sure the canucklehead comes around pretty quick, but as long as the jedi can keep ducking him, Logan isn't going to kill the jedi).

An knowing 'force drowning' is as simple as knowing how to use your telekinesis, and the principles of how a person drowns. It's not a fancy technique. It's very simple.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-09, 11:39 AM

Force immobilization mixed with a killing move is done quite often, just never against other other Force users because they can break the hold themselves. Force choking isn't dark side- in fact, Luke used it in Return of the Jedi to stop those two Gammorean guards at the beginning of the movie when he was entering Jabba's palace. Also, he wouldn't need to use the more typical "choking" aspect of Force Choke on Logan. Force Choke applies pressure to whichever internal organ the user wishes. He can choose brain and squish Logan's weakest point with a thought.

jmsl

2007-06-09, 11:46 AM

I saw this thread on the forums main page and had a good giggle. Reading through it is even better. I had no idea just how much power creep there was in the Star Wars universe; I do vaguely remember reading a comic where Wolverine regenerated from a drop of blood. Both sides have gone into the ridiculous side of power fantasy fulfillment.

But to keep with the thread's spirit, a Jedi Master has the advantage if s/he can hold Wolverine in air indefinitely. Unless Wolvie has something to throw, there's just not much he can do at range. Just to add into the confusion, though, wouldn't Wolverine have the chance to be a natural Jedi with all the "life force" in his body? :smallbiggrin:

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-09, 11:49 AM

Depends on if you mean the EU explanation for the Force or George Lucas' much-hated medichlorian explanation. In the latter, no. In the former, possibly.

ZeroNumerous

2007-06-09, 12:52 PM

Force Vampire. Midichlorians now have power creep.

EvilJames

2007-06-09, 01:46 PM

Except for his claws, and entire skeletal structure. Which would do just fine.
assuming that a lightsaber can't cut it (which is assuming a lot) the tendons that hold his bones together are not adamantium laced and so very vulnerable to being cut by light saber swipes. A master would be able to target that easily.

Where are people getting wolverine is resistant to mind powers, In the ultimates universe he is, but I don't recall anything implying that he had that in the regular universe. (I could see him maybe being able to break free of out right mind control eventually but the subtle suggestion control of the jedi.

averagejoe

2007-06-09, 02:02 PM

Mind control doesn't even matter. Just toss him around. With their mind. Break him up into basic particles until the skeleton is all that's left. Launch him into space and let him orbit. Just lift him up off the ground and away from any surfaces so he can't do anything. That's just what one could do with telekinesis. He wouldn't be able to touch a jedi master. Not even close.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-09, 02:08 PM

Wolverine is very resistant when raging and has a highly advanced mind (in combat forge compared his mind to someone beating 4 chess champions at once). Xavier has also spent years creating the strongest psychic defenses he can for him.

And the Jedi is cutting ligaments that heal pretty much as they are cut. Wolverine without adamantium heals about a hundred times faster than he does with it. And he has regenerated every piece of organic matter in his body excluding his brain in a matter of minutes. His legs didn't fall off either, meaning that his skeleton isn't held together by just ligaments.

....

2007-06-09, 02:26 PM

I still stand by my "Luke crushes him into a small bloody mass and then fries him in the atmosphere" theory.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-09, 03:10 PM

Seriously. If a Jedi Master ever gets pushed, he starts turning out the nastier end of the Force. General Grievous was a pushover in the movie, but that actually follows the proper continuity given the Clone Wars cartoon. Anyone catch what Windu did to him? That was called Force Crush, the sort of penultimate version of Force Choke. He just caused everything in Grievous' chest to collapse in an instant, including several important life support systems and his still-biological lungs. The only reason Grievous didn't die there was because Windu only caught sight of him for a second, and Force Crush requires the Jedi to be able to see his target in order to do that. He does that to Wolverine's head and everything in it suddenly becomes a pancake. Especially since Wolverine won't likely be in a ship rapidly carrying him away from the agitated Jedi, so he's going to feel the full extent of this terrifying power.

Other neat powers-
Force Lightning isn't actually a dark side technique. It's just more popular with dark side users. It's not even lightning. It's the Force itself, given a destructive form so pure that you can see it. It can also kill even another Force user in a matter of seconds when fully used. Luke only survived this because the Emperor was trying to enjoy snuffing out the last Jedi in the universe and so wasn't blasting him fully. Vader, meanwhile, was fatally wounded from just touching him while he turned it up in a panic.

Force Flight is a popular power, though not many Jedi master it (it's the more advanced form of Force Jump). What happens when you simply fly out of Wolverine's reach? Well, I'm sure you can imagine it.

Force Cloak lets a Jedi become invisible. It's rare, but it would give yet another boon in fighting Wolverine, who'd then be forced to rely on tracking by scent.

Psychometry would let the Jedi touch Wolverine once and read his mind a bit. It's not low-level telepath stuff, which Wolverine is resistant against, either.

Force Deflection and Protection (I forgot about this, it would prevent gunfire with ease) lets a Jedi stop incoming attacks by creating an invisible wall of Force. It's been shown in the movies as well- remember when Vader stopped Han's blaster shots in Cloud City with ease? It can be used in melee, though applying it like that is generally not seen much due to how Deflection can be countered by Force Push. Wolverine does not have this.

Force Stasis. Renders the victim catatonic. No, this isn't a dark side power- in fact, it's a light side power specifically. The Jedi doesn't even have to kill him now.

Combustion lets a Jedi think about something and make it explode. I still don't know how this is a light side power, but it sure is impressive. Exploding brains would make this fight real short.

I could go on. Check this site before talking about how Wolverine could get by a Jedi Master's resevoir of insane powers. Seriously, the only reason this discussion seems to still be going on is because some people here are more familiar with Wolverine then Star Wars (not saying that's bad, but knowing both ends of the argument is sort of important to the debate)- http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_powers

averagejoe

2007-06-09, 03:26 PM

Well, to be fair, a lot of those are conventions of the games. "Choke" "Crush" "deflect" "pull" "disarm" etc are all just uses of telekinesis, seperated for gaming purposes.

Look, even if a jedi couldn't actually kill wolverine (which is doubtful), a jedi could definitely keep wolvie from hurting him, and incapacitate him.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-09, 06:58 PM

I was actually being careful to not pick powers that were only found in games. Each one of those has been refferenced elsewhere with distinction, though many were never actually named until games like KOTOR came along. Really, there's nothing the Force can't accomplish. In Star Wars, it's what holds the universe together. Manipulating that can make reality itself bend and break.

Hungry Kobold

2007-06-09, 07:30 PM

I put my money on the Jedi Master. All Light Side/Dark Side rules aside, the Master has more than enough capability in sheer power. The way I see it, morality is already irrelevant because (I'm just guessing) Wolverine wouldn't try to kill a Jedi Master, a guardian of peace. If we assume Logan is willing to kill a good guy at any cost, we have to assume the Jedi Master is willing to kill a good guy at any cost. Once we accept that, it's like pitting Gandalf against Batman. Batman is extremely dangerous, but Gandalf can set things on fire by talking the right way. It's all about that edge that magical powers provide.

Foeofthelance

2007-06-09, 10:17 PM

Power wise, the Jedi take it hands down. They've been granted powers by any number of people for any number of purposes to suit any number of plots. Wolverine on the other hand has always been depicted as some sort of ronin barbarian, who simply kills what needs killing, which with the ability to come back from anything that (tries to) kill him is rather easy. The only time Wolverine doesn't kill is when he has a good reason not too. Otherwise, the bad guys are shishkabob. So yeah, the Jedi powers have it.

From a standpoint of the actual characterizations? Logan takes the win. Here's why:

As far as I can tell, based off what I've read in the comics, Wolverines ability to regenerate is proportional to the damage he takes. Shoot him a couple times, and his body takes it's own sweet time putting itself back together. Blow him up by dumping him into the sun or setting off Nitro next to him, and his body reacts a little quicker. This allows him to keep going after someone until they are dead, unless that person has a way to keep coming back as well, a la Sabretooth.

The Jedi, on the other hand, are bound by their codes. Much like the Power Rangers, they aren's supposed to escalate a fight until the other person does so, or unless there is significant danger to innocents. Sure Luke can crush the bridge of a Star Destroyer by thinking about it, but he hasn't gone off and just crushed the remaining bits of the Empire because that goes against the Jedi Code. (This is why we ruled out the Sith earlier, remember?) So faced with a melee opponent such as Wolverine, they are more then likely to mix it up the old fashioned way.

Now, the Jedi could try to hold Wolverine off using Telekinesis, but that would only last as long as the Jedi could maintain it. Wolverine is used to being thrown about by the likes of Magneto, Sabretooth, the Hulk, Windego, Alpha Flight, the Fantastic Four, and pretty much the rest of the Marvel universe, so this is nothing new to him. If instead the Jedi tries to go hand to hand, Wolverine's training and experitse win it for him. The Jedi could probably keep up speed wise, and the precognition could tell of blows coming, but it can't block those blows. Wolverine's fighting style is pretty much all or nothing. He doesn't stick to just his claws, using fists, feet, and any other part of his body as well. The Jedi are well trained as well, but they tend to focus on the ability to wield a sword. Well, Logan has been known to deal with those as well, and the Silver Samurai is short a hand as a result. Edge: Logan.

If Wolverine loses a limb, it will grow back damn quick. If a Jedi wants to regrow a limb, they have to go take an extended nap. Do we expect Logan to be stitching a daisy chain while his opponent catches forty winks? I doubt it!

So powers goes to the Jedi, plot goes to Wolverine, and god help the poor Imperial sunza- when the good guys realize they've been duped, and take it out on those who set them up!

EvilJames

2007-06-10, 01:20 AM

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-10, 01:29 AM

Ligaments healing as soon as they are cut? Sorry no. Wolvie still doesn't heal that fast and burning has always slowed his regen down (whenever they kill an alternate dimension wolverine it's almost always with fire or some sort of heat) Wolverine is just not in the same class as most of the jedi masters, as has been said a knight he might be able to take and a padowan would be slaughtered but the masters just kill him.

PS also the time he regenerated from a drop of blood invloved help from mystical crystal or something like that.

PPS. as for regrowing limbs I'm not sure he can he lost a hand to cyclops in age of apocalypse and it never came back are there any recent stories where something like that happened and it came back.

Civil War. Wolverine regenerated all the organic matter in his body except his brain in a matter of minutes. And it was all burned off of him.

Without the Adamantium bones he has regened his entire body, including bones, in about 30 seconds.

Every limb a Jedi removed would actually make Wolverine a harder opponent as he heals even faster.

EvilJames

2007-06-10, 12:36 PM

Civil War. Wolverine regenerated all the organic matter in his body except his brain in a matter of minutes. And it was all burned off of him.

Marvel: "hey I have an Idea lets do something that would kill wolverine last month but not have it kill him this time. Yeah that would be awesome"
Me: *sigh*

that's quite possibly the most ridiculously stupid thing they've done to Wolverine in a long time.

But regardless cutting limbs would not make him ahrder to defeat because it's not removing adamantium from his body cutting limbs gives the jedi access to his head and ain't regrowin that.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-10, 12:48 PM

averagejoe

2007-06-10, 01:16 PM

Wolvie's healing factor doesn't seem to be very consistant in general; therefore, if you're going for the most powerful Wolverine cited, then if he goes up against the most powerful jedi cited he just ends up in the sun. That's enough to kill him.

nooblade

2007-06-10, 04:33 PM

If Jedi are so awesome, then how did the clones kill them incredibly easily? Sure, it was a betrayal, they weren't expecting it at all, but wouldn't the be scanning for a possible rear attack in a battle setting? Maybe there's a "DM with plot hooks" excuse?

I'm no expert, but I think that Jedi are primarily peaceful. Half of the Jedi in movies had precious few of the powers listed in the books. Most of the options listed here sound particularly brutal, like something a Jedi wouldn't develop. Or maybe a half-psychotic PC bent on becoming extremely powerful would go for it. On the other hand, Wolverine doesn't care if he's good or bad.

Against the "average" Jedi Master, I bet wolfy'd win even without the adamantine skeleton. Throw him against some powergamer's monster and he's toast no matter what he's got going for him.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-10, 04:39 PM

You literally can't lace the entire spine with adamantium. You'd have to remove the very function of the spine in order to do that.

http://health.yahoo.com/media/healthwise/n5551554.jpg

The spine isn't just bone, and it isn't just the very delicate spinal cord in the center either. See that inververtabral disc that's placed in between every bit of bone? That's made of ligament instead of bone for a reason. It's meant to be a cushion to prevent damage to the spinal cord when you move. Bone can't work there for several reasons, not the least of which includes the constant damage it would wreak on the spinal cord, or the fact that it has to bend and flex or else movement would be too rigid. You'll also notice that the spinal column (the bone itself) really only protects from the backside, since the human spine typically doesn't have to worry about damage coming from the other side (you'd be dead anyway). If Weapon X tried to "improve" the spine by adding an extra column on the front end, it would cut into the rest of his organs and make his spine very unflexible. Since Wolverine is hunched over a lot, we can safely assume this didn't happen. Also, we've seen Wolverine's skeleton. There's no additional column.

Civil War's depiction of Wolverine was stupid on many levels. The fact that he lived through that fire is practically a retcon, and given the severeness of it, his bones should have fallen apart due to the ligaments melting. Face it- there was no reason for what happened in that comic to have ever happened, and Marvel keeps getting hate mail over it.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-10, 04:46 PM

Theres no reason Jedi masters can move suns yet have trouble with clone troopers either.

Wolverines healing factor is cannon at that power level. Jedi may have the power to move suns (I haven't kept up with expand universe outside of a few videogames) and if so they win.

But movie level Jedi Masters don't stand much of a chance.

Wojiz

2007-06-10, 05:09 PM

The Jedi Masters were bogged down by the death around them, like the death of the Force. This, with the rising dark side, compounded with the fact that the clones were the perfect asssassins as they were more like droids with next to no readable thoughts or emotions, put the Jedi so off guard that they were vulnerable to a sudden, unsolicited attack on all sides. Not only that, most of them weren't masters.

averagejoe

2007-06-10, 05:19 PM

Wolverines healing factor is cannon at that power level. Jedi may have the power to move suns (I haven't kept up with expand universe outside of a few videogames) and if so they win.

That seems a bit arbitrary, because the wolverine I remember couldn't heal that well; It's been awhile, though.

If it really is that powerful, can you cut wolverine in half and get two wolverines?

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-10, 05:21 PM

Revenge of the Sith was pretty much a disservice to Jedis. Several writers have tried to clear up why that happened, given that it completely contradicts everything that was shown about them up until that point. I mean, Luke while untrained could have lived through what killed even some of the Masters during Order 66 as presented during the movie. I believe the cannon explanation is that the Clone Wars had polluted the Jedi with the dark side through the horrors of war, and due to the high power of Sidious the plans were capable of being kept a secret until they were carried out. The surprise is what killed the Jedi, since the Clones were only carrying out legal orders without malice and so couldn't be sensed. As for how Masters could be defeated this time by a handful of blasters when they've been shown in the past to have no problems with that sort of thing still has yet to be explained.

If we're simply assuming that what happened in Civil War to Wolverine makes perfect sense, then Wolverine is immortal. He should have died for several reasons. I already mentioned the ligaments, so here's more- supposedly his skull protected his brain from being fried, which even he needed to live, despite the fact that there are several holes in the skull that lead to the brain, like in the eyes or in the bottom. This couldn't simply be encaged in adamantium because then it would cut into the brain's functions over the body. And even if it were perfectly sealed shut, that heat should have boiled the brain inside the hot metal. Due to pasteurization, there would have been absolutely no living organisms at all in the tasty cooked meal that would have been Wolverine's brain.

But to satisfy Wolverine fans that say he lives because of adamantium, I answer with disruptor weaponry. If Wolverine gets to defy simple anatomy and physics, the Jedi certainly gets to use cannon weaponry from the Star Wars Universe (been around since KOTOR at least, which happened 4,000 years before the Clone Wars). It works by turning all matter it comes into contact with into salt peter. Adamantium is weak against molecular manipulation, it's one of the few listed ways to actually destroy it. Wolverine gets shot in the head and his adamantium skull gets a nice big hole in it.

EDIT: Semi-simu-ninja'd!

Hungry Kobold

2007-06-10, 05:27 PM

The movie Jedi, like the stormtroopers, are victims of the plot. The plot required them to die in a short amount of time to advance the plot, so they did. Stop dismissing them just because the plot said they had to be wusses at the exact moment they were shot at.

Logan's regeneration is still irrelevant. The master wins because of his magic. If you look purely at both established canons on the subject of capability there is no Jedi at Force Mastery level that can be killed by a solitary melee fighter. And no Jedi of Mastery level would be afraid of using extreme measures to terminate a hostile once other choices have been eliminated.

PhallicWarrior

2007-06-10, 06:16 PM

Exactly. It all comes down to plot.

MeklorIlavator

2007-06-10, 07:16 PM

Logan's regeneration is still irrelevant. The master wins because of his magic. If you look purely at both established canons on the subject of capability there is no Jedi at Force Mastery level that can be killed by a solitary melee fighter. And no Jedi of Mastery level would be afraid of using extreme measures to terminate a hostile once other choices have been eliminated.

Also, logan appears to be somewhat vunerable to mind affecting powers, so couldn't the Jedi Master make him think he was an 8 year old, and have Jean braid his hair?

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-10, 07:39 PM

Also, logan appears to be somewhat vunerable to mind affecting powers, so couldn't the Jedi Master make him think he was an 8 year old, and have Jean braid his hair?

If the Jedi can beat shields placed by Xavier and overcome Wolverine's natural resistance to telepathy/mind control.

Hungry Kobold

2007-06-10, 09:17 PM

If the Jedi can beat shields placed by Xavier and overcome Wolverine's natural resistance to telepathy/mind control.

I'd wager a Sith could do that (but we're not talking about them, they're a whole different league), but Jedi don't train for such techniques, in theory.

Logic

2007-06-10, 09:56 PM

I'd wager a Sith could do that (but we're not talking about them, they're a whole different league), but Jedi don't train for such techniques, in theory.

I doubt anyone aside from a devoted psychic can disrupt the mental sheilds Logan has in place. And it has been said more than once that Jedi mind tricks only work on the "Weak minded" (besides Hutts and Toydarians being naturally immune.)

ZeroNumerous

2007-06-10, 10:04 PM

I doubt anyone aside from a devoted psychic can disrupt the mental sheilds Logan has in place. And it has been said more than once that Jedi mind tricks only work on the "Weak minded" (besides Hutts and Toydarians being naturally immune.)

.. Uh, he was talking about a Sith. A Jedi mind trick wouldn't work, but a Sith wouldn't try that, now would he? A Sith would just crush Logan's mind with the Force, leaving him a drooling monkey.

In terms of Jedi mental assaults.. A Jedi would actually attempt to subdue Wolverine with a Mind Trick, which I highly doubt would work anyway.

averagejoe

2007-06-10, 10:15 PM

.. Uh, he was talking about a Sith. A Jedi mind trick wouldn't work, but a Sith wouldn't try that, now would he? A Sith would just crush Logan's mind with the Force, leaving him a drooling monkey.

In terms of Jedi mental assaults.. A Jedi would actually attempt to subdue Wolverine with a Mind Trick, which I highly doubt would work anyway.

Or any force user could just crush his mind with the force, litterally. Like, with telekinesis.

Logic

2007-06-10, 10:28 PM

.. Uh, he was talking about a Sith. A Jedi mind trick wouldn't work, but a Sith wouldn't try that, now would he? A Sith would just crush Logan's mind with the Force, leaving him a drooling monkey.

In terms of Jedi mental assaults.. A Jedi would actually attempt to subdue Wolverine with a Mind Trick, which I highly doubt would work anyway.

I am assuming you mean physically crushing his skull and/or brain?

Or any force user could just crush his mind with the force, litterally. Like, with telekinesis.

What he said.

Foeofthelance

2007-06-10, 11:59 PM

Trying to influence Logan's mind through the force is not a winning proposition, for any force user, Jedi or Sith. The last time someone tried to brainwash Wolverine was back in the Enemy of the State/Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D. story line. The Hand had to kill Wolverine in order to bypass his mental blocks when the mind controlled him, and even that was not entirely successful, as it gets mentioned that while he is exectuting the missions he is assigned, he's also behaving with Logan's personality, as he breaks up an attempted rape at one point and spares a dog at another one. When S.H.I.E.L.D. tried to do it they were running several hundred thousand simulations, either a minute or an hour, not entirely sure which, and even then they were only partially successful. Logan didn't really get reconditioned, he just went off and found something bigger to want to kill.

When Cassandra Nova brainwashed him in Astonishing, all it took was a can of beer to bring him back to his senses, and she should have been at Xavier's level. So no, no brainwashing Logan. Even if you are Sith. A Force user standing there trying to mentally influence Logan is going to find themselves with several new holes in their body.

Now, as I said before, if you give each and every last Jedi Master the abilites used in the novels, then yeah, they are going to win hands down each and every time. That sort of comparison is like comparing a level five fighter playing by the rules to a level forty wizard playing under a DM that doesn't know how to say no. One has checks and balances (Even with the Civil War issues being accepted as canon, Logan would still need to be able to go toe to toe in a fight with the Jedi. Being able to heal really quickly doesn't make Logan a good fighter, experience makes Logan a good fighter.) while the other is a fan boy's wildest dream.

If you tell the Jedi they aren't allowed to one hit kill, then the fight becomes much more even, despite the fact that they can still use the telekinisis and force lightening. Make it an actual fight, and yeah, Wolverine has a slight edge. Yoda, Luke or Vader could proabaly take him evenly, and might even have a slight edge in certain cases. (Yoda seems to be much more flexible then Logan, and would be able to imitate Nightcrawler to a point.) Against Grievous, Logan would win. Let's face it, Grievous is a Danger Room contraption compared to Logan, and nothing more. Palpatine, well, I think Palpatine would lose. He doesn't seem to be all that good at combat really. He seems to lose to every one he goes up against. He just wins because somebody else intervenes for him. Dooku would lose, he was just a pansy used by the Emperor. Darth Maul would probably have the edge though, as his expertise with the double edged saber means he could keep up with Wolverine's fighting style.

But if we just want to keep one upping power levels, Wolverine wins anyway. He gets his butt kicked by the Jedi/Sith, Jean goes nuts out of emotional distress, unleashes the full power of the Pheonix force to tear every last midichlorian out of any force user's body, no matter how weak or strong they are, then proceeds to scorch them all out of existence and for a finale ressurects Wolverine from a single strand of DNA from his last surviving cell. Wolverine's alive, there are no force users left, therefor Wolverine wins. Any questions?

averagejoe

2007-06-11, 12:18 AM

If you tell the Jedi they aren't allowed to one hit kill, then the fight becomes much more even, despite the fact that they can still use the telekinisis and force lightening. Make it an actual fight, and yeah, Wolverine has a slight edge.

Okay, great, restrict the Jedi's most powerful and signature ability and Wolvie has something of a chance. Actually, your level 5/level 40 was an apt comparison, which is why I wondered why this is even a debate. I mean, I like Wolvie a lot, but precognition+really powerful telekinesis is basically a win button against almost anyone with the capacity to be crushed.

ZeroNumerous

2007-06-11, 12:32 AM

Or any force user could just crush his mind with the force, litterally. Like, with telekinesis.

Except a Jedi cannot actually do a mind-crush, because that would be killing a sentient being with the Force. Jedi don't do that because of their hokey religion. A Sith would have no problems doing that. And yes, I meant physically bursting his brain with the Force. If I meant brainwashing, I'd have said brainwashing.

Vader, post-Mustafar, would have a pretty hard time keeping up with Logan. His actions, according to Lucas, were severely limited by the burning on Mustafar, hence why he was moving rather slowly and fighting slowly in the First, Second, and Third movies. Pre-Mustafar, well, Anakin was basically the most powerful Force-user in existence at the time. He'd whipe the floor with Logan.

Palpatine: in the movies, lost due to plot. In the expanded universe.. Well. He's practically a god who comes close to approaching the power levels of the Old Sith. Yes, I used the effective equivalent of 'nearly' in that twice. Old Sith are just that powerful. And remember, Jedi restrictions on one-shotting don't apply to Sith. Logan is doomed.

Dooku: I heavily disagree with. Dooku was nearly sixty in the movies, and died heavily due to plot. A sixty-year old man who could fight Yoda to a stand still in a saber-duel. Sure, he's not as powerful in the Force but thats not what's being used if we remove their ability to one-shot him, which doesn't even apply to Dooku in the first place.

Greivous: Again, I disagree. He died mainly due to plot. Greivous was capable of fighting Mace Windu, the accepted most powerful lightsaber wielder, to a stand-still. In fact, if not for the Force, Windu probably would have died since Greivous was getting an edge by learning Windu's style. Once Greivous knows someone's fighting style, he auto-wins against that person simply because he devises ways to get around that style and has the limbs to back it up. Five sabers at once?

Darth Maul: I dunno, and to be frank, I don't care. I never liked a villain who didn't understand the concept of 'banter'.

Exar Kun just rips out her soul and destroys it. He's proven capable of destroying dark side spirits before. So Jean loses and the entire Marvel Universe is just plain screwed. Any questions? :smalltongue:

Foeofthelance

2007-06-11, 12:40 AM

Okay, great, restrict the Jedi's most powerful and signature ability and Wolvie has something of a chance.

Partly because it shouldn't have to be restricted. I actually think it quite odd that most people assume the first thing any Jedi would do in a fight against Logan would be to immediately use the Force to his brain down to the size of an atom. Someone doing that isn't a Jedi, someone who does that is a Sith. Just because a Jedi can do something doesn't mean he should do that thing, or even would do that thing. After all, Luke could have just cut off the rancor's wind pipes in Jabba's palace, couldn't he? It wasn't a sentient or anything like that, so there woudldn't be any risk would there? Wrong. Thinking like that is exactly the risk such a situation poses. And when you get down to, much as I like the character, in the Star Wars universe Logan would be little more then a slightly more intelligent, much more hairy, pint sized rancor.

If Logan charged a Jedi he would either get tossed away by teke or the Jedi would fight back with the lightsaber, because that is in line with the Jedi thinking. If Logan instead went after a pack of school children a hundred yards away, then the Jedi might reach out and force choke him, but that would also be entirely out of character for Logan.

The problem I have with the Jedi=Insta-win argument is that it assumes the Jedi are a bunch of ruthless killers, when in fact I believe that most Jedi would willingly engage Wolverine in hand to hand combat out of a sense of fair play.

Greivous: Again, I disagree. He died mainly due to plot. Greivous was capable of fighting Mace Windu, the accepted most powerful lightsaber wielder, to a stand-still. In fact, if not for the Force, Windu probably would have died since Greivous was getting an edge by learning Windu's style. Once Greivous knows someone's fighting style, he auto-wins against that person simply because he devises ways to get around that style and has the limbs to back it up. Five sabers at once?

The only problem I have with Grievous being able to beat Wolverine is that he pretty much is just a Danger Room assignment. The Danger Room was able to study and strategize against the X-Men as well, which is why they in turn had to adapt to it. And five spinning blades against Wolverine isn't as big deal, as that as a rather common gimic for the Danger Room already. That's always been what I saw as a weakness of the Jedi: they really entirely too much on the lightsaber as a weapon. Yes, they can use it to block ranged attacks, which is good for them, but it also tends to lock them down into a variant of the same basic attacks. Five sabers at once is something Logan has trained for and dealt with, but for a Jedi that's the equivalent of facing five equal foes at the same time, which they generally don't from what I've been able to tell. As for being able to lock down Logan's style, all I can say is: Which one? :smallsmile:

Seraph

2007-06-11, 12:46 AM

averagejoe

2007-06-11, 12:48 AM

Partly because it shouldn't have to be restricted. I actually think it quite odd that most people assume the first thing any Jedi would do in a fight against Logan would be to immediately use the Force to his brain down to the size of an atom. Someone doing that isn't a Jedi, someone who does that is a Sith. Just because a Jedi can do something doesn't mean he should do that thing, or even would do that thing. After all, Luke could have just cut off the rancor's wind pipes in Jabba's palace, couldn't he? It wasn't a sentient or anything like that, so there woudldn't be any risk would there? Wrong. Thinking like that is exactly the risk such a situation poses. And when you get down to, much as I like the character, in the Star Wars universe Logan would be little more then a slightly more intelligent, much more hairy, pint sized rancor.

If Logan charged a Jedi he would either get tossed away by teke or the Jedi would fight back with the lightsaber, because that is in line with the Jedi thinking. If Logan instead went after a pack of school children a hundred yards away, then the Jedi might reach out and force choke him, but that would also be entirely out of character for Logan.

The problem I have with the Jedi=Insta-win argument is that it assumes the Jedi are a bunch of ruthless killers, when in fact I believe that most Jedi would willingly engage Wolverine in hand to hand combat out of a sense of fair play.

Ah, but I thought we were talking who *could* win. Of course a jedi probably wouldn't do that, but it is within his ability. Heck, if that's the way you want to play it, then Wolvie wouldn't even fight a jedi, and a jedi wouldn't fight Wolvie, since they're on the same side. 'Cept maybe in that "I'm Wolvie and I'm pissed off, but I still realize these guys are on my side so I'm just gonna use my fists and then stop before the fight gets too intense." variety of fighting. So, the fight doesn't happen.

Though not ruthless, jedi have never been shown to be especially interested in fair play in a fight, besides just not fighting dirty. Fine, the jedi doesn't crush Wolvie's mind with a thought, he just uses the force to incapacitate Wolvie long enough for the jedi to escape out of his reach/calm Wolvie down. Wolvie might be stronger than your me, but I think even he'd have trouble lifting an X-wing, and I don't think that was even the limit of Yoda's power.

Edit: Oh, and I agree that Grevious totally sucks. He should have been defeated in his first appearance in the clone wars, but appearantly he's somehow able to "dodge" being telekinetically manipulated, which is just stupid, even by the standards of the internal logic of the Star Wars universe. Most implausable villain ever. Wolvie straight up in that fight.

Foeofthelance

2007-06-11, 12:54 AM

That's actually why I felt the most sorry for the Imperials in my original post. I could see them trying to dump Wolverine on a pack of Jedi for some reason, only for the lot of them to drag Wolverine (possibly the other way around*) back to the Imperial head quarters for a stomping.

*I say the other way around, because the Jedi might have to worry about what their commander's think or their orders, at which point Logan would just take the stick and head back with them in tow anyway. Which they probably wouldn't be all that upset about.

EvilJames

2007-06-11, 02:13 AM

Removing his adamantium increases Wolverines healing by a factor of 10 or more.

With the adamantium he regenerates his whole body in a few minutes. Increased by a factor of 10 and he is regenerating his whole body pretty much as it is damaged. He pretty much would heal behind the lightsaber.

But as I said we aren't removing his adamantium so wehter or not that increases his healing is irrelavant. Maybe his claws come back but his head does not and the claws are not coming back in time to swing before his head comes off

pps Episode three essentially doesn't make much sense with how jedi's are supposed to be and have been shown to be right up to that point (Maybe the darkside helped or something)

pps now give wolverine some sith training (and lets be honest they are the only ones who would take him) and now you got yourself a fight.

Dr'uun Unnh

2007-06-11, 02:14 AM

EvilJames

2007-06-11, 02:18 AM

Well for this exorcise the reason doesn't really matter (just assume they have a good reason) and if the jedi is defending himself then killing wolvie is certainly acceptable as incapacitating him is much more risky and wolverine is likly trying to kill the jedi.

Also Luke force choked the gamorean because he was slipping dangerously close to the darkside by Return of the jedi.

Setra

2007-06-11, 04:08 AM

Thought: I remember some people going entirely on the MOVIE version of the Jedi, while giving Wolverine the power from the comics...

Why not just give Wolverine his movie power level?

I think it's because everyone knows Wolverine would easily lose at this point.

Shadow of the Sun

2007-06-11, 04:44 AM

Dude, Luke has only got close to the darkside twice.

The first would be in his final fight with Vader, and he would have turned were it not for the fact that Sidious is a retard.

The second, he actually became Sidious' apprentice. And you know what? He returned to the light.

Seriously, Luke is harder to turn to the dark than pretty much anything.

Emperor Ing

2007-06-11, 05:15 AM

Ok lets finish this, and presume that only one of them would come back up alive

Wolverine might be immune to mind tricks, but not telekinesis
FORCE PUSH!!

Wolverines claws are unlikely made of anything resistant to lightsabers, so theyre destroyed as a result (ur gonna try to kill a Jedi Master with a lightsaber with your bare hands? yeeaaahh...good luck with that.)

Does wolverines healing constitute towards his claws? Besides, im not sure if a wolverine torso could grow legs, or if wolverine legs could grow a torso, head, and arms, or the Master is skrewed with a fantasia-esque situation.

Green Bean

2007-06-11, 06:01 AM

Admittedly, I'm a Star Wars fan and know just the bare minimum about Wolverine.

Judging by many of the responses to this thread, a Jedi would need to act... very un-Jedi-like in order to defeat Wolverine -- and would end up killing him (in some cases unnecessarily so).

How might a Jedi defeat Wolverine while remaining a servant of the light?

I say that the Jedi would use his TK abilities to suspend him in the air and attempt to reason with him, bringing a peaceful conclusion to the conflict (why exactly are the Jedi and Wolverine fighting in the first place?).

The problem is that because of Wolverine's healing factor, the only way to stop him is to kill him. Anything short of lethal, he gets back up and starts stabbing. If a Jedi was set on not killing him, they could try negotiating (they are on the same side, sort of), or they could toss him in one of those carbonite freezers.

tgva8889

2007-06-11, 07:17 AM

Actually, I believe the only way to actually kill Wolverine is to incinerate every single cell of his body so that he can't possibly regenerate. As in, literally burn every single cell of his body so that no two atoms of him are still stuck together. In fact, those atoms would have to be spread across the universe. Really.

Cutting off his claws doesn't work, because he'll just regenerate them (they're really made of his bone material, not just the adamandium). The skeleton really hinders Wolverine, since Adamandium can be cut through by a lightsaber, because it's not lightsaber-proof. Remember, if no one in the position to say so has ever said that it is lightsaber-proof, then it's not. In fact, using a lightsaber offensively really won't work at all.

That being said, there's no way that if Logan were to fight a Jedi to the death that he could lose, unless that Jedi were literally of god-like power, of which I have seen exactly 0 Jedi.

If we're talking "force users" in general, then I can accept that an all-powerful Sith Lord of Old could 'kill' Logan by canceling his power and then removing all his vital organs or something equaly gruesome, but as we're talking about Jedi, no.

However, if we're talking simply "defeat" the other one, then it gets a bit more complicated. Is Logan considered defeated if he can't move? In that case, the Jedi realizes he can't truly eliminate Logan, so he uses the Force to hold him in place until he has time to either escape or call in reinforcements.

Also, Jedi can calm emotions. He could simply calm Logan enough that he wouldn't want to attack the Jedi, and that could be called 'defeating' him.

I know a good deal about both Jedi and Wolverine, though I don't know all that much about the Sith of Old. I believe everything I've said is realistic.

Wojiz

2007-06-11, 07:49 AM

Killing Wolverine would be easier than everyone seems to think, though. If you cut his head off, that would give you opportunity for at least half a minute to do whatever you like; chop him into hundreds and hundreds of pieces with your 'sabre, then pick up the pieces with the force and dump them in space or in an incinerator or something. Chopping him into pieces, wouldn't kill him, but it would INCAPACITATE him long enough for a Jedi to kill him.

kpenguin

2007-06-11, 07:55 AM

Not knowing much about the extent of Wolverine's regenerative abilities, I must ask, do they make him immune to suffocation? Starvation? Dehydration? Getting knocked unconscious or drugged? He's certainly not immune to everything.

ravenkith

2007-06-11, 08:12 AM

I've said it before, I'll say it again. This time, I'll go over it point by point.

1. Wolverine needs to breathe. He cannot survive in space without a space suit - therefore, he needs to breathe.

2. Wolverine is not immune to telekinesis, either in the comic books or in the movie.

3. A Jedi has telekinesis. Yoda, close to the end of his life, managed to lift an X-Wing, move it a couple of hundred yards, and set it down gently. He has previously been shown to completely halt the momentum of large and heavy objects in just a couple of seconds, and throw them back at who tossed them in the first place. Jedi have a great degree of control and manipulation, at least on a par with X-Men 1 jean grey, who stopped Logan cold mid-attack. Jedi Knights may be less powerful/practiced, but we're talking masters, here.

4. Jedi has precognition. He'd know Wolvie was a threat. With his heightened reflexes, as previously established, hed be faster than Logan on the draw (hey, Jean could do it, and she's NOT got heightened reflexes, remember?).

It's simple: Jedi sees wolvie coming, snatches him up telekinetically, and lowers him headfirst into the nearest pond/lake/full bath tub.

Wolverine drowns.

Up to the jedi whether to drown him unconscious, or to kill him.

Personally? SO worth the darkside point to end this pointless debate.

Either result counts as a win for the Jedi.

Sure wolvie will eventually try to get back up, but the Jedi can 'rinse and repeat' as necessary.

Machete

2007-06-11, 08:28 AM

With adamantium, if it is affected by a lightsaber, Wolverine is pwned badly because of mangle potential. If it isn't, then Wolverine still only has a 20-35%(although completely valid) chance of winning against a jedi.

Without the adamantium, his odds rise to 30-45%, but I'd say a jedi still has the edge with all those powers and the lightsaber too.

Give Wolverine a lightsaber(or better yet, lightsaber claw thingies! LOL!) and I'd call it dead even.

I suppose different strategies could be used by either side to tip the odds in their favor, I suppose it comes down to the specific details of the battlefield.

I'm not giant a fan of either franchise, but occasionally watch the movies.

Teloric

2007-06-11, 10:27 AM

I am reminded of a battle between Wolverine and Spidey some time ago. In that battle, Wolverine admitted that if Spidey snapped Wolverines head back/off, then Wolverine would die. Of course Peter Parker isn't a cold blooded killer, and thus didn't do it, giving Wolverine the win in that battle.

Now we all know (or assume) that Spidey can't break adamantium, yet he could have killed Wolverine? Yes. As many in this thread have eluded to, adamantium doesn't exist between the vertebrae on the spinal column. There's a gap there. And the Wolverine fans seem to continuously step around this point when, in fact, it is this exact weakness that a Jedi would use to kill Wolverine.

Now given what we know about Jedi, do you think they would have any way of detecting that gap? You know, like some kind of extra sensitive awareness of the inherent strengths and weaknesses in things? Some kind of mystical sensing Force? Note the sarcasm. If a Jedi needed to kill Wolverine, he/she could do it, and likely without much difficulty.

Is Wolverine a skilled combatant? You bet, and so are Jedi. Does Wolverine have superhuman reflexes? No, he has excellent reflexes, but not superhuman. Does he have precognitive abilities? No, though his other senses are sharp. Will adamantium resist a blow from a lightsaber? Debatable. If adamantium doesn't stop a lightsaber, then the Jedi will win pretty quick. If adamantium does stop a lightsaber, then a lightsaber will also block adamantium claw attacks. Is there a way to kill Wolverine? Yes. Do Jedi have the means to discover and exploit that weakness? Definitely.

Wolverine is cool and all, but a determined Jedi could kill him. End of debate (as far as I'm concerned).

averagejoe

2007-06-11, 10:35 AM

Mewtarthio

2007-06-11, 10:42 AM

Admittedly, I'm a Star Wars fan and know just the bare minimum about Wolverine.

Judging by many of the responses to this thread, a Jedi would need to act... very un-Jedi-like in order to defeat Wolverine -- and would end up killing him (in some cases unnecessarily so).

How might a Jedi defeat Wolverine while remaining a servant of the light?

Windu vs Fett (Ep II): Master Windu could have easily chopped off Jango's arms instead of his head (it's not like maiming's all that horrible if you're a rich guy in the Star Wars universe, and it's certainly preferable to death in any case). Okay, so Master Windu may be quite a few shades darker than the other Jedi (he's played by freaking Samuel L Jackson, so you know he's going to be a little unfriendly), but he's obviously worthy to be called a Jedi Master. Ergo, Jedi are not required to spare opponents whenever possible, particularly if sparing said opponents will result in them returning to 100% health in a few minutes. All that really matters is that they not kill them in anger.

Catch

2007-06-11, 10:58 AM

Wolverine can't regenerate a missing head.

Fight over.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-11, 10:59 AM

Jedis fight in self-defense- to the death more often then not. The moment Wolverine pops the claws, the Jedi goes into kill mode. The moment he guts him and he doesn't die (well, assuming he didn't go straigth for decapitation. Jedis love decapitation for some reason), they start using the Force to either examine his body with extra sensory perception or the Force might just show him Wolverine's past so he'd know how to deal with him. The Force likes to keep their users alive, ya know.

Blue Paladin

2007-06-11, 11:22 AM

your point would be valid if Luke hadn't actually used force choke on some gammoreans five minutes before the rancor scene.That's like the third time someone has said that about Luke, and it went against every memory I have of that movie. I always figured he was using a "Jedi mind trick" (a la Obi-Wan in the first movie), as a demonstration of much he had progressed as a Jedi. Looking to the script we have:

...reveal the silhouetted figure of LUKE SKYWALKER. He is clad in a robe similar to Ben's and wears neither pistol nor laser sword. Luke strides purposefully into the hallway. Two giant guards move to block Luke's path. Luke halts.

Luke raises his hand and points at the puzzled guards, who immediately lower their spears and fall back. The young Jedi lowers his hand and moves on down the hallway.
That sounds a lot more like a mind trick to me... I don't think the Gamorreans would be "puzzled" by a force choke, so much as "gasping for breath".

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-11, 11:27 AM

The Gammoreans grabbed their throats and stumbled backwards. The novelization says it was force choke. Every official refference says it was force choke. It was force choke.

Mewtarthio

2007-06-11, 11:51 AM

Transcripts aren't set in stone. Initially, they may have intended Luke to Mind Trick his way past the Gammoreans, but they changed their minds by the time the movie was done, revising it to a Force Choke (likely to give the movie a "darker" feel right off the bat, not to mention the fact that it would be a little redundant since Luke Mind Tricks the Twi'lek later).

Selrahc

2007-06-11, 11:56 AM

No, he has excellent reflexes, but not superhuman.

No he has reflexes literally beyond the capabilities of humans.

If adamantium does stop a lightsaber, then a lightsaber will also block adamantium claw attacks

However, any of those lightsaber parries won't even slow him down. A weightless sword is all well and good, but it would be remarkably poor at parrying the blows of someone with superhuman strength and a material weapon(Not severely superhuman, but still definitely so)

Wolverine can't regenerate a missing head.

Neither can a jedi. And a jedis neck doesn't have a bunch of invulnerable stuff in there for Wolvie to bounce off of unless he does a precise strike.

Wolverine is cool and all, but a determined Jedi could kill him.

Yeah, sure. Just as Wolverine could kill a jedi.

I'm of the opinion that just as depicted in the mainstream films and comics, jedi would win a greater percentage of the fights against a sane regen Wolverine(as in no civil war style lameness, but regenerating from sword slashes before your eyes), but that Wolverine would stand a damn good chance of killing the jedi as well.

EvilJames

2007-06-11, 12:41 PM

No he has reflexes literally beyond the capabilities of humans.
not really thats never been listed as one of his powers

However, any of those lightsaber parries won't even slow him down. A weightless sword is all well and good, but it would be remarkably poor at parrying the blows of someone with superhuman strength and a material weapon(Not severely superhuman, but still definitely so)
you mean like when they fight other force users? of course it it would slow him down some of the aliens in starwars have superhuman strength and cortosis weave (however yu feel about it) is a solid weapon so the light sabers do parry aggainst it very well

Neither can a jedi. And a jedis neck doesn't have a bunch of invulnerable stuff in there for Wolvie to bounce off of unless he does a precise strike.

Which is about the only strike the jedi would do (assuming the adamantium can block the light saber of coarse ,but as I said before that might be assuming a lot)

Yeah, sure. Just as Wolverine could kill a jedi.

he could kill a padowan easily he may have a chance against a knight, but we are talking master wolverine has a slim to none chance against a jedi master

Selrahc

2007-06-11, 01:00 PM

not really thats never been listed as one of his powers

No, it really really is.

I mean just take wikipedias power listing "Regenerative healing factor
Superhuman senses, strength, stamina, agility, and reflexes
Adamantium-laced skeletal structure with retractable claws
Resistance to telepathy
Expert martial artist"

Enhanced agility and reflexes.

you mean like when they fight other force users? of course it it would slow him down some of the aliens in starwars have superhuman strength and cortosis weave (however yu feel about it) is a solid weapon so the light sabers do parry aggainst it very well

If you have a massless weapon, then the only thing applying to knocking aside your foew is your own strength. Wolvie has strength far in excess of most Jedi, and of most star wars races. Hes stronger than a wookie for example.

He can power straight through their parry. So should a cortosis weapon wielder, and if they didn't then its because someone failed a logic check.

Which is about the only strike the jedi would do (assuming the adamantium can block the light saber of coarse ,but as I said before that might be assuming a lot)

Firstly, it's not assuming a lot that an invulnerable metal can be invulnerable. Pretty much nothing breaks it, even cut through anything things like the Silver Samurais sword(Mystical ability to cut through anything is the mutant power of the Silver Samurai). A jedis lightsaber has trouble cutting through the blast door in episode one, and has never been shown slicing through invulnerable things.

And Jedi don't really do precise swipes between joints, thats not how they get trained. They wield a sword that as standard, cleaves straight through the opponent, so bones don't figure into the fighting style at all. What is the point of learning fighting techniques that will prove utterly useless to you with your signature weapon?

he could kill a padowan easily he may have a chance against a knight, but we are talking master wolverine has a slim to none chance against a jedi master

Obi Wan is a master, and he does nothing in the movies that makes him an instant lock against Wolverine. He never displays the capacity to shoot lightning, telepathically crush the internal organs of his foe, or any of the other stuff that people seem to think all jedi masters are routinely doing. I think maybe a handful of masters could wipe the floor with him, the really good ones like Yoda.

(Just because you have TK, doesn't mean you have the finnese or the power to use it effectively beyond just the push and pull that Jedi routinely use)

kpenguin

2007-06-11, 01:10 PM

Meh. Sure, Wolvie is powerful, but compared to other Marvel powerhouses, he isn't in the extreme. he's not even an Omega. A Jedi Master at full power is near invincible. Seriously.

Anyway, I'd rather read/watch something with a Jedi-Wolvie team up. Hero on Hero stories usually have lame plotlines. Plus, think of the cool banter when they're on the same side. Oh, and cooperative fighting. Telekinetic fastball special, anyone?

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-11, 01:20 PM

Just have a story where Logan finds himself in the Star Wars galaxy via some ridiculous dimensional rift and gets trained as a Jedi to defeat a Sith uprising. He can have his claws replaced with a lightsaber in each arm, as mentioned before in this thread, perhaps due to some debilitating shot at his claws from a disruptor rifle. And wasn't he a pilot once? He'd do good in the big ship battles. He's even naturally always on the edge of the dark side, so the chance for a traditional Jedi story within him is strong.

EvilJames

2007-06-11, 01:57 PM

If you have a massless weapon, then the only thing applying to knocking aside your foew is your own strength. Wolvie has strength far in excess of most Jedi, and of most star wars races. Hes stronger than a wookie for example.

He can power straight through their parry. So should a cortosis weapon wielder, and if they didn't then its because someone failed a logic check.

Calling bull on that there has never been any indication that he is stronger than a wookie (he's never ripped some one s limbs off for example) Wikipedia may list it (for whatever that's worth) but he has never exibited massive strength in the comics, in the X-men video game he did get 1 bar of strength but the characters that would be equal to or stronger than a wookie got 2
he could powers through the parry if the lightsaber wielder weren't a jedi (or sith) but since we are talikng about jedi it's not a failed logic check but jedipowers that allow them to wield a weightles weapon in the first place so now neither powers through the blade other wise why would the jedi even bother using lightsabers if the cortosis blade is so much more effective (the answer being, of coarse that it's not)

Firstly, it's not assuming a lot that an invulnerable metal can be invulnerable. Pretty much nothing breaks it, even cut through anything things like the Silver Samurais sword(Mystical ability to cut through anything is the mutant power of the Silver Samurai). A jedis lightsaber has trouble cutting through the blast door in episode one, and has never been shown slicing through invulnerable things.

And Jedi don't really do precise swipes between joints, thats not how they get trained. They wield a sword that as standard, cleaves straight through the opponent, so bones don't figure into the fighting style at all. What is the point of learning fighting techniques that will prove utterly useless to you with your signature weapon?

adamantium has the power to be as strong as plot requires it seems. the hulk's skin sometimes breaks adamantium needles and sometimes adamantium cuts him (i don't know how effective it was originally against him) some times adamantium tipped bullets go through everything sometimes they are stopped by some other invulnerable thing. So it is a lot to assume that it will behave how you want when you want unless you are the writer (by the same token I suppose that assuming that it can cut it might be a lot as well)

however thats largely irrelavant since a jedi's strikes are guided by the force and so they are indeed precise they are not just striking wildly so it's not a lot to assume that they could cut wolvies limbs off as they have precognition and super human agiltity and wolverine just has (according to wikipedia at least) superhuman agility

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-11, 02:16 PM

Calling bull on that there has never been any indication that he is stronger than a wookie (he's never ripped some one s limbs off for example) Wikipedia may list it (for whatever that's worth) but he has never exibited massive strength in the comics, in the X-men video game he did get 1 bar of strength but the characters that would be equal to or stronger than a wookie got 2

He is constantly carrying over 100 pounds of adamantium around with no trouble. Imagine someone lifting and running with 100 pounds constantly for about 40 years. You don't think they will be super strong?

he could powers through the parry if the lightsaber wielder weren't a jedi (or sith) but since we are talikng about jedi it's not a failed logic check but jedipowers that allow them to wield a weightles weapon in the first place so now neither powers through the blade other wise why would the jedi even bother using lightsabers if the cortosis blade is so much more effective (the answer being, of coarse that it's not)

Cortosis blades are fairly crappy, they don't deflect blasters, they don't cut through most everything, and they aren't as cool.

So now your increasing the power level of the Jedi's by saying that they have some subconscious power to add weight to light?

adamantium has the power to be as strong as plot requires it seems. the hulk's skin sometimes breaks adamantium needles and sometimes adamantium cuts him (i don't know how effective it was originally against him) some times adamantium tipped bullets go through everything sometimes they are stopped by some other invulnerable thing. So it is a lot to assume that it will behave how you want when you want unless you are the writer (by the same token I suppose that assuming that it can cut it might be a lot as well)

Adamantium can be stopped by many things, it doesn't have enough force to penetrate the hulks skin, or whatever other item you care to bring up. That doesn't mean the adamantium is broken. Molecular Manipulation is the only way to effect it after it has hardened.

however thats largely irrelavant since a jedi's strikes are guided by the force and so they are indeed precise they are not just striking wildly so it's not a lot to assume that they could cut wolvies limbs off as they have precognition and super human agiltity and wolverine just has (according to wikipedia at least) superhuman agility

Start naming Jedi's that have shown that kind of skill. Wolverine is one of the best fighters in the marvel universe. He has mastered pretty much every form of combat, with or without weapons, and then combined them with his own unique moves to maximize the effectiveness.

And a Jedi's precognition is great but wolverine beats them in that field. During a fight his mind is working good enough to beat 4 chess champions at once. He has been fighting for 50+ years and has been trained in nearly all fighting styles. He can analyze the Jedi's forms and know what they are going to do merely by processing what they have done and combing it with what he knows.

Kinda the if he does A then I should do B but then he would do C so I should do D. He is doing that 16+ moves deep.

I would give the win to EU masters who are willing to incinerate his mind where he stood and who can throw suns together. But the movie masters would put up a good fight and then loose. Jedi aren't willing to use the force to kill. So force drowning doesn't work, and it would require that there be water about.

Even if you go by the movie version of wolverine, he was surviving a blast from teh phoenix that was destroying buildings.

averagejoe

2007-06-11, 02:20 PM

Selrahc

2007-06-11, 02:41 PM

Calling bull on that there has never been any indication that he is stronger than a wookie (he's never ripped some one s limbs off for example)

Yes. He has. In fact hes lifted twenty men, and thrown them through a wall. And that was before Hydra pumped up his powers. Wolverines strength is portrayed inconsistently, just like his healing factor. But he has always had strength that was above the human limit. Wolverine is super strong, hes just not Spidey strong.

he could powers through the parry if the lightsaber wielder weren't a jedi (or sith) but since we are talikng about jedi it's not a failed logic check but jedipowers that allow them to wield a weightles weapon in the first place so now neither powers through the blade other wise why would the jedi even bother using lightsabers if the cortosis blade is so much more effective (the answer being, of coarse that it's not)

Why use lightsabers rather than cortosis? Because lightsabers slice through everything except for cortosis that a jedi is presented with. I'd rather have that in every single situation except for one where I expect a foe with cortosis weaponry.

Plus, a lightsaber is hard to use. A non jedi can't take one and turn it against its wielder without personal risk. Lightsabers are also more elegant, being much more suited to the jedi way of fighting due to their ease of wielding. When you aren't lugging a heavy weapon around, you're better at fighting.

So yeah, plenty of reason to use lightsabers. But cortosis really should power through any parry a jedi sets up.

adamantium has the power to be as strong as plot requires it seems. the hulk's skin sometimes breaks adamantium needles

I'm thinking thats from ultimates. Whole nother multiverse there.(And I'm not sure the needle broke... I think it jsut wasn't able to penetrate the skin)

and sometimes adamantium cuts him (i don't know how effective it was originally against him)

Adamantium cutting the Hulk would depend on if the wielder is able to cut through the Hulk. Steel is tougher than rock, but that doesn't mean steel slides through rock like a knife through butter.

So it is a lot to assume that it will behave how you want when you want unless you are the writer (by the same token I suppose that assuming that it can cut it might be a lot as well)

Adamanrtium breaking is almost always through some real world shattering force.

And I don't think a lightsaber counts. An energy sword is nothing new in the marvel universe, and adamantium stands up to them fine.

And again, how do you explain the blast door scene in episode one? They have obvious trouble cutting through the blast doors. If the blades were instantly cut through anything like you claim, then it would have been as simple as drawing a circle in the air.

however thats largely irrelavant since a jedi's strikes are guided by the force and so they are indeed precise they are not just striking wildly so it's not a lot to assume that they could cut wolvies limbs off as they have precognition and super human agiltity and wolverine just has (according to wikipedia at least) superhuman agility

Who said they were striking wildly? I sure didn't. I just said that bones are not a normal factor, so they won't be figured into a jedis training.

And you know.. the force may guide, but that doesn't mean you instantly hit an immensely skilled guy, who is moving with beyond human agility in the exact place where his bones join. And a jedi, in most cases will have to figure out what to do. That the bones are the problem, and that they need to strike at the joints. That isn't something you normally have to think up. Even Luke killing the Death Star knew what he wanted the force to guide him towards.

And you're acting like the heightened agility is in some doubt. It's not, it's just not one of Wolvie's more widely known powers. It gets listed in the marvel profile for the character as well, and in comic recap pages a fair ammount. It is a power he has. It's not some rumour that wikipedia made up.

tgva8889

2007-06-11, 03:09 PM

Actually a Jedi can add "weight" to a weightless blade. They do have something called the Force. Apply pinpoint force pressure here, and voila, the effectiveness of a weighted weapon. I'm sure a Jedi Master learns how to do something equivalent to this at some point if he wants to succeed against, you know, enemies with friking vibroblades.

Actually, first off Cortosis makes for a really bad weapon, because it's actually not that tough a metal. I think Steel is tougher than Cortosis. Besides the fact that Cortosis is actually made of cortosis weave, making it a chain-like metal that would be somewhat hard to manufacture into a weapon, unless you were planning to have a weapon only against Jedi, in which case, why aren't you a friking Sith yet?

Assuming still that Adamantium is like Cortosis, I still don't think that Wolvie has it so easy. If the Jedi Master is smart enough, he can position himself in such a way as to not be behind Wolvie's attacks when he hits the lightsaber, so that it doesn't go back into the Jedi's body. He could also, as I said, put some Force behind it to prevent hurting himself, if necessary. In a toe-to-toe fight, however, I still think Wolvie has a better advantage. Increased regeneration and relative invulnerablity makes for a hard fight.

For all the people that said "drown him, etc.", you're assuming there's water nearby. Perhaps they're locked in an inescapable Adamantium chamber. Then how well would the Jedi do in a fight? I think it's somewhat even. Even with ranged attacks, Wolvie has the reflexes to dodge. I mean, against Yoda, he'd be totally screwed, but against, say, Kit Fisto? Easy kill. And Kit Fisto lasted the second longest against Palpatine. But someone of Mace-like power, I think Wolverine might be in trouble, assuming the Clone Wars cartoon series is canon, which is it.

averagejoe

2007-06-11, 03:25 PM

For all the people that said "drown him, etc.", you're assuming there's water nearby. Perhaps they're locked in an inescapable Adamantium chamber. Then how well would the Jedi do in a fight? I think it's somewhat even. Even with ranged attacks, Wolvie has the reflexes to dodge. I mean, against Yoda, he'd be totally screwed, but against, say, Kit Fisto? Easy kill. And Kit Fisto lasted the second longest against Palpatine. But someone of Mace-like power, I think Wolverine might be in trouble, assuming the Clone Wars cartoon series is canon, which is it.

Or the jedi could just lift wolvie off the ground and out of reach. Or, as long as we're in an adimantium chamber, just crush his brain.

Selrahc

2007-06-11, 03:30 PM

Or the jedi could just lift wolvie off the ground and out of reach.

Just like that time in none of the movies where that happened.

Or, as long as we're in an adimantium chamber, just crush his brain.

Because when you are in an adamantium chamber, your devotion to a personal code you were raised in since childhood is just thrown away?

BEsides that, just because someone has TK, doesn't mean they can selectively destroy someones insides. When do they ever do that? Windu crushes Greivous's heart, and thats it(And just because Windu can do it, doesn't mean all jedi can). And he does it in a series which has been declared as over the top in power by Lucas.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-11, 03:45 PM

Yeah, Clone Wars is canon. Kit Fisto preffered Shii-Cho, and made the extremely crucial error of using it against Sidious. Shii-Cho is the most basic of all lightsaber martial arts, and while Fisto was the greatest practicioner of it at the time, it's particularly useless against a single opponent. And he used it against Sidious, one of the best duelists in the movie timelines. Hell, the only duelist better then Sidious would have to be Mace Windu for his own Vaapad style- recognized as perhaps the only Jedi to truly master Form VII.

EDIT: I'd like to mention something about the whole "Jedi don't kill!" thing. Tell that to the stormtroopers.

GiantMonkeyMan

2007-06-11, 04:02 PM

(Let me apologize in advance. My thoughts below are somewhat disorganized. I will divide my post with "---" so its clear where I am shifting gears)

A couple of points:
First off,

You can find Wolvie's old Marvel stats here:
http://www.classicmarvel.com/cast/wolverine.htm

And you can find an explanation for what all that means here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Super_Heroes_(role-playing_game)

Here's a table that I believe correctly maps values numerical values to descriptions to human maximums for the Marvel FASERIP Stat System:
Feeble 1 01-05 -
Poor 3 06-15 -
Typical 5 16-50 -
Good 8 51-75 -
Excellent 16 76-85 Max. human Strengtb
Remarkable 26 86-95 Max. Endurance
Incredible 36 96-00 Max. Agility
Amazing 46 - Max. Fighting, Reason,Intuition
Monstrous 63 - -

And here is a list of stat rankings that continues beyond monstrous (which is already a d20-style 20+ stat ranking)

Feeble
Poor
Typical
Good
Excellent
Remarkable
Incredible
Amazing
Monstrous
Unearthly
Shift-X
Shift-Y
Shift-Z
Class 1000
Class 3000
Class 5000

And here are Wolverine's stats:
Fighting Incredible
Agility Remarkable
Strength Good
Endurance Remarkable
Reason Typical
Intuition Monstrous
Psyche Incredible

So first off, Wolverine (at least in the instantiation described above) isn't above human norms for any physical stat. He is above human norms for Intuition.

_However_

If we look at his powers they breakdown like follows:

Powers
Adamatium Skeleton: Pure Adamantium is the strongest substance known to man. Strips of the unbreakable Class 1000 material have been surgically integrated into Logan’s skeleton. As a result he has Excellent body armor against physical attacks/Typical protection against edged and energy attacks (though he can be cut and does bleed). He can inflict Excellent damage with his fists or Incredible damage on a charge (as blunt attacks, before considering martial arts talents), and he can Stun or Slam opponents of a higher Endurance than his Strength. Nothing can cut through or break Wolverine's bones.
Claws: Wolverine has three Adamantium 12 inch claws mounted into the back of each hand and forearm. He can pop them out individually or as a group at the slightest whim. Wolverine can do up to Monstrous damage with these claws on the Edged Attack column. He will strike for no more than Excellent damage if he is fighting another human. Wolverine's claws are unbreakable made from Class 1000 pure Adamantium (The claws do not ignore Force Fields but may still damage the field if the damage inflicted by wolverine's claws is greater then the power rank of the Force Field).
Regeneration: Amazing
Recovery: Amazing
Resistances: Unearthly to Toxins and Disease
Animal Empathy: Amazing
Enhanced Senses: Monstrous smell and Incredible hearing
Tracking: Monstrous
Night Vision: Remarkable
Berserker: Ignore all Stun results, All attacks are at +1CS, and Unearthly resistance to mind control and other mental attacks. A successful Psyche FEAT must be made to come out of it.

Special Notes: Wolverine is often the projectile in a Fastball Special with Colossus or other super strong individuals (Power Stunt). When he is used as a projectile, Wolverine should be treated as a Unearthly material.

I think his powers should resolve at least two questions:

First off: Adamantium >> Light Sabre. Why you ask? Because in its Universe Adamantium is the toughest thing around. Period. Wolverine may not be the strongest guy in his universe, he may not even, (frankly) be the most skilled combatant. He is, however, made of the toughest stuff around. Light sabers do a fair bit of damage in their own universe, however there is plenty of stuff that can slow a light saber including mundane materials. Furthermore, the descriptions I see of Cortosis don't seem to indicate that it is a substance with near the resilency of Adamantium. On wikipedia, it is described as "a somewhat fragile light grey, chalky rock that has the strange property of being impervious to both heat and energy." Furthermore, it can be mined with hydraulic jacks. This doesn't really sound, to me, to be a substance that can compete with Adamantium for toughness. Frankly, in these "Mighty Mouse vs. Superman" sorts of discussions, I don't think you will see more compelling evidence than that.

Second off, " Unearthly resistance to mind control and other mental attacks." is really really high. We're talking several standard deviations above the mean for Super heroes. Mind tricks probably aren't going to work.

---

Oh, one final point unrelated to Wolverine's stats. Re: Chopping off Wolverine's head.

Presuming Wolverine's skeleton is relatively human in structure, his vertebrae are held together by multiple ligaments. For some of these ligaments (the posterior longitudinal for instance), there is basically no way to access them from outside the vertebral column. So the long and the short of it, no one is cutting off Wolvie's head. You might be able to _pop_ it off, but cutting through all those ligaments is basically impossible without also cutting through bone.
Here are a couple pictures to help illustrate the point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gray308.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gray301.png
http://www.backpain-guide.com/Chapter_Fig_folders/Ch05_Anatomy_Folder/Ch5_Images/05-4_Overall_Spine.jpg

---

In light of the above quantification of Wolverine,
I think it would be interesting if someone would post a quantitative description of some prototypical Jedi master and failing that instances which indicate the limitations of Force powers. Are there for instance, any examples of Jedi masters being defeated by force-incompetent or at least force-untrained adversaries? If so, these examples would be an interesting addition to the debate as it would give us some idea what is nessecary to defeat a Jedi master other than Jedi-masterness.

---

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-11, 04:11 PM

A bunch of Clone Troopers do it with blasters.

GiantMonkeyMan

2007-06-11, 04:19 PM

I would also like to add that in light of poking through the wikipedia article on Wolverine, The FASERIP defined powers that I posted above are probably a reasonable _lower_bound_ for Wolverine's capacity. For more information, I would direct folks here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolverine_(comics)#Powers_and_abilities

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-11, 04:21 PM

Mewtarthio

2007-06-11, 05:28 PM

The Clone Troopers did it because George Lucas lost his mind years ago. But it's entirely possible to kill someone that's using the Force without the Force. Echani combat training can do it remarkably well. It's also important to mask your true feelings, either by emptying your mind or by forcing emotions that betray your intent, like thinking happy thoughts towards a Jedi you're trying to kill.

Of course, Wolverine's not exactly the most capable guy around when it comes to masking your hostile intent.

Also, I don't recall if the anti-Jedi non-Force assassins ever targetted any Masters. I've only heard about them from KotoR II, and they're only said to target "enemy Jedi." Masters should be pretty hard to catch off-guard unless you've got the secrets of the Sith to protect you (as Sidious did) or do not have regular human emotions (a droid or Clone Trooper).

Still, now that I know a little more about Wolverine, I'd say that he might be able to kill certain Jedi Masters, but not one of the more combat-focused ones. Maybe he could kill Ki-Adi-Mundi, but he'd never touch Mace Windu or Yoda.

EvilJames

2007-06-11, 05:36 PM

In the blessed few starwars books I've read I believe Mandalorian warriors were supposed to be able to hold there own against jedi knights. a whole lot of people shooting at a small number of jedi could conceivably overwhelm even a jedi master's ability to defend himself unless he is has a lot of skill with area of effect force powers.

The jedi Master may not know that he can't cut wolverine but he can defend against him and force push him away until he figures out what he needs to do

As for the blast doors it wasn't so much that they had troble cutting through as much as there was a lot of it to cut through wolverines bones don't have that advantage.

PS hmm you are right about the needle being Ultimates universe so nevermind on that one:smallbiggrin:
I may have missed something with those pictures but it does look like there are a few spot where the jedi would have access to the spinal chord with out cutting bone (He just won't be able to cut all the way and completly remove the head, so that may or may not be a problem depending on how important wolvies spinal chord is to him)

Spiderman's strength is on par with a wookies (of course if woverine through 20 men through a wall that would put him on par with spiderman, but would also have come way out of left field as nothng to that point has ever indicated that his strength was super human, but if he is now then I guess he is now)

as I said give wolverine some sith training and he can slaughter masters left and right (He's pretty much there ideal personality)

GiantMonkeyMan

2007-06-11, 05:51 PM

Yep, you could probably cut the spinal cord, but you would have to sneak a weapon through the intervertebral foramina which would require a rather precise shot with a rather skinny weapon (the space between the pedicles is really small.) Also, presumably that cord would grow right back. Besides, there are other nerve tracts that are almost as vital that aren't nearly as well protected (brachial plexus, lumbosacral plexus etc. etc.) Basically, you ain't gonna chop off his head and if your purpose is to disable him, you've got much better options.

GiantMonkeyMan

2007-06-11, 06:01 PM

Hungry Kobold

2007-06-11, 06:08 PM

The Jedi could stab wolverine through the eye, depending on what happens to the saber blade when it is forced through a small opening. This would be an advantage of having greater reach than Wolverine.

How about this: Revan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revan) vs Wolverine. KotOR 1 and 2 are considered canon as information on events and characters have been featured in the official chronologies. With him we can discount the typical "no squishing" Philosophy of the prequel Jedi. Revan knew war and combat and would understand how to fight a fierce opponent like Wolverine.

Hungry Kobold

2007-06-11, 06:11 PM

Also, a question for someone more familiar with the Star Wars canon. What are the limitations on force TK, mind control and etc. If Jedi Masters really can, on a whim, knock planets about, I'm not quite sure how they could have experienced defeats such as this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_66_(Star_Wars)

They can't knock planets about (I believe size does actually matter at that scale, despite what Yoda told Luke. I don't think he was referring to planets then anyway.), but they really could knock Wolverine hither and yon with no significant effort. That's all that matters for our argument.

I've already explained order 66 :smallannoyed: Deus ex Machina by Mr. Lucas.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-11, 06:20 PM

They can't knock planets about (I believe size does actually matter at that scale, despite what Yoda told Luke. I don't think he was referring to planets then anyway.), but they really could knock Wolverine hither and yon with no significant effort. That's all that matters for our argument.

Darth Bail moves a moon closer to a planet so he can get off of it without a space ship in 1 book.

I've already explained order 66 :smallannoyed: Deus ex Machina by Mr. Lucas.

No. It is cannon. People with blasters can kill Jedi. Jedi can't defend all sides at once. And they can't tell you are going to strike if you have no malice or remorse.

Hungry Kobold

2007-06-11, 06:31 PM

No. It is cannon. People with blasters can kill Jedi. Jedi can't defend all sides at once. And they can't tell you are going to strike if you have no malice or remorse.

Nahnahanahanah, having no malice doesn't mask bolts of plasma. The Jedi couldn't sense the betrayal, which accounts for most of it, there's no hiding that, but Ki-adi Mundi just kinda stood there staring at them while they blasted him. "Oh gee they're aiming at me. Does that mean-? Nahhh." That's where Lucas just screwed them over. :smallsigh:

Darth Bail moves a moon closer to a planet so he can get off of it without a space ship in 1 book.

Then I guess they can. :smallbiggrin:

Selrahc

2007-06-11, 06:40 PM

Spiderman's strength is on par with a wookies

OKay... Since when could Wookies use a bus as a blunt instrument? Spidey can lift twenty five tonnes. Thats a light tank. Or a truck.

When has a wookie ever done something anything like that? And if they have... what explanation was given? Nothing short of a fricking bio tank(Carnifex, Ultralisk) should be able to shift those sort of weights if they are just going off regular muscles.

And no, twenty guys through a wall with supreme effort isn't the same as chucking around a bus. Or anywhere close to it.

GiantMonkeyMan

2007-06-11, 06:42 PM

Darth Bail moves a moon closer to a planet so he can get off of it without a space ship in 1 book.

*sigh*, I know, I know. It's a comic book/space opera so I shouldn't be put off by absurd physics, but _come_ _on_. That's just ridiculous :smallconfused:

A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away....
where F != Gm1m2/r^2....

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-11, 07:21 PM

Size matters not :P

I forgot that there's actually a decent answer for how the Clone Troopers could be that effective according to various refferences to Return of the Jedi in memoirs and such in the EU, as well as hints elsewhere and such. Even with the destruction of the Death Star, the Imperial Fleet still dwarfed the Rebel Alliance several times over. But it was a few minutes before the destruction of that Death Star that suddenly, according to the people on both sides of the conflict, that the Imperials suddenly seemed to go nuts. All at once their organization shattered, the Imperials became extremely panicky and sloppy, and basically just totally lost control. Why?

Palpatine was actually affecting every single Imperial under him. Their tactics, their morale, and their capabilities were being enhanced by the dark side of the Force, whether they realized it or not. Sidious was sickly powerful. He cheated death for a very long time, and the Rule of Two and his many manipulations of galactic politics maintained that the dark side would be strong and that he would control vast powers by it.

If he could do this as far back as the prequel trilogy, then those Clone Troopers weren't just firing at Jedis normally. Between their inability to feel emotion towards the deed and Sidious' endowing of the dark side to each of them, the Jedis' precognitive abilities would have been shot. I do believe that Yoda was the only one that could feel it coming, and he was the most powerful of them all at the time. Kenobi and all the other survivors just got lucky.

Argoti

2007-06-11, 07:27 PM

1. Cortosis usually shuts down lightsabers, some alloys with other metals just make it uncuttable, but pure cortosis shuts down lightsabers.

2. Another reason for the Clones getting the jump on the jedi masters is (assuming it's still canon, Lucas killed most of the Thrawn trilogy with the prequel trilogy) clones cause static in the Force. Atleast, that's how it's show in Dark Force Rising/Last Command (it's how Luke tracks groups of clones moving around)

ZeroNumerous

2007-06-11, 07:55 PM

*sigh*, I know, I know. It's a comic book/space opera so I shouldn't be put off by absurd physics, but _come_ _on_. That's just ridiculous :smallconfused:

"There are no physics. There is the Force"

Seriously though, a Jedi master once turned himself into a freakin' tree to stop a planet from dying. The Force makes physics pointless.

And actually, Clone Troopers did have feelings toward their Jedi Masters. They just had the feelings of another day on the job. Remember, Commander Cody was disappointed that Order 66 came when he finally gave Obi-Wan his lightsaber back. Had it came a few minutes later, Cody would have kept it.

13_CBS

2007-06-11, 08:37 PM

@Argoti: Actually, that might just be the Spaarti cylinders. The clone troopers, IIRC, were made by the Kaminoan process which isn't the same as the Spaarti process. thus, the troopers might not necessarily have the force static.

My hypothesis for the clones killing jedi is this: it could be that the jedi never expected their troops to betray them, and ironically developed "attatchments" with the soldiers under their command, troops who fought with them thick and thin. Therefore, Ki-Adi-Mundi and others might have been obeying something deeper in their minds than jedi training: trust.

Also, people are forgetting that JEdi Master =/= master swordsman. Case in point; Coleman Trebor, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman_Trebor#Trebor.2C_Coleman. This fellow was a jedi master and was even on the jedi council. However, he got shot to pieces by JAngo Fett. No lightsaber combat skills there.

Another thing I wanted to mention: certain forms of saber combat are more effective than others in certain situations. If adamantium claws are indeed uncuttable by lightsabers, then a Makashi practitioner might have difficulty against Wolverine's fierce attacks. A Soresu user, on the other hand, could possibly wait to find a weak spot in Wolverine's guard, and then strike. After all, surely Wolverine's joints are not made of adamantium as well.

Argoti

2007-06-11, 08:46 PM

@Argoti: Actually, that might just be the Spaarti cylinders. The clone troopers, IIRC, were made by the Kaminoan process which isn't the same as the Spaarti process. thus, the troopers might not necessarily have the force static.

That's possible, but I always read it as "mutliple copies of the same 'person' in the force" caused the static, not how they were made.

Yeti

2007-06-11, 09:06 PM

I may be wrong here, but there isn't any bone (well; three) in the ear, nose, or eyes. Stab him.

Also, Jedi happen to tend to be really smart,when they find a problem they can't solve by force-powers or light-saber action;What do they do???

Throw him in a black hole

Hungry Kobold

2007-06-11, 09:16 PM

Another thing I wanted to mention: certain forms of saber combat are more effective than others in certain situations.

This is why Obi-wan would beat him. Obi-wan (who has been greatly disparaged in this thread) was a master of the the most highly defensive form. The Revenge of the Sith novelization goes into great depth of detail in his battle against Grievous (who also has been greatly disparaged in this thread. Grievous from the Cartoon and the Novel is truly awesome) describing his Force counters to Grievous' millisecond attack speed (I'm not kidding: Grievous of the novel would destroy Wolverine as easy as any given Old Sith. Read the novel). It goes over Obi-wans extremely Force-enhanced defenses and counters against Grievous' speed and perfect stroke precision.

I know that people who haven't read it will ignore me (probably not even respond), repeat what's already been said. . . don't repeat things, I've read the whole thread: novel Obi-wan or novel Grievous end Wolverine in moments. The Force is too powerful and Obi-wan is too strong in it; Obi-wan stands and waits for his moment to sever Logan's spinal cord between two vertebrae. Grievous can match Wolverine's speed, outmatch his precision and his reach, and comes close enough to him in strength to make Logan's strength advantage moot; he would find his way between every ligament and tendon until Logan's claws have to regen and Adamantium cannot regenerate with them: now Grievous lops off the regrowing claws with 3 sabers and the 4th goes wherever Grievous wants it to go. (I did not miscount. The third is to make sure the claws don't regrow sooner than he wants)

So, I suppose Obi-wan is the only really applicable part of my example since he's the only Jedi Master. Still, my point stands, and the Obi-wan/Grievous fight in the movie does not preclude the possibility that the novels description of the gritty details is canon, therefore it is canon.

There you have it. :smallsmile:

GiantMonkeyMan

2007-06-11, 10:41 PM

Obi-wan stands and waits for his moment to sever Logan's spinal cord between two vertebrae.
As I said in an earlier post, the intervertebral foramina are extremely small. Even if you presume that Wolverine is a complete incompetent (which I think is a somewhat far fetched assumption) it will be an extremely difficult target to hit. Besides the fact that, what exactly do you think is so special about the spinal cord? If Wolverine can recover from having his aorta slashed open, he can certainly recover from a spinal cord injury. Frankly, if one presumes that he regenerates tissue at a relatively constant rate, the wound that you suggest (stabbing through the foramina) will heal very quickly as it is a very smalll wound. I encourage you to explore the relevant anatomy. I assure you, in as much as we share similiar assumptions about Wolverine's anatomy and physiology, the spinal cord is a lousy target. If you're dead set on paralyzing the poor guy a good healthy slash above the clavicle should take out his brachial plexus which serves the arm. Of course, he'd regenerate the nerve(s), but I would suspect that this would probably happen a good deal slower than with the spinal cord since you could slice away a good deal more tissue since there isn't nearly as much bony protection there.

13_CBS

2007-06-11, 10:51 PM

To a normal human, perhaps, the space between each vertebrae would be too small to cut in combat.

But we're talking about jedi here. They can block blaster bolts, tiny particles of energy, with what's basically laser sticks. Next time. have someone lob a pebble at you and try to deflect it with a stick the way a jedi does. Observe how difficult it is. Then consider how jedi do this sort of stuff with blaster bolts almost effortlessly.

The movies downplay many jedi abilities greatly. They're able to rather insane things through training and the Force. I don't think cutting someone's spine along the disks would be too much of a problem for these jedi.

You also assume that all jedi are human and have human reflexes. :P

I would agree, however, that Wolverine's regeneration abilities would negate almost any cut that a lightsaber could make on his flesh.

A question for the Marvel fans, though: how much can Wolverine regenerate brain damage? For example, if a jedi were to stick his lightsaber through Wolverine's eye and seriously screw up his brain, would Wolverine merely be unconcious for a few moments as his brain regenerated? Would he only scream in pain and lash out? Or would he fall over dead?

GiantMonkeyMan

2007-06-11, 11:06 PM

Remember the point I was making. Even if they can make the shot (which presumes that Wolverine isn't skilled enough to defend it to begin with) It's a poor choice, there just isn't enough space to do a lot of damage.

To your point of stabbing Wolverine in the eye, most of the space behind the eyeball is bone. There are a few small holes in the back of the eye. The orbital foramen, and the superior and inferior orbital fissures are very small, however. So I seriously don't think you're fitting a light saber through there. I just don't think it even fits.

EvilJames

2007-06-12, 02:00 AM

OKay... Since when could Wookies use a bus as a blunt instrument? Spidey can lift twenty five tonnes. Thats a light tank. Or a truck.

When has a wookie ever done something anything like that? And if they have... what explanation was given? Nothing short of a fricking bio tank(Carnifex, Ultralisk) should be able to shift those sort of weights if they are just going off regular muscles.

And no, twenty guys through a wall with supreme effort isn't the same as chucking around a bus. Or anywhere close to it.

:smallconfused: When has spider man weilded busses? when has he lifted tanks that's always been hulk stuff? Did the entire Marvel universe get some steroids in th past year? *sigh* this is ridiculous apparently Wolverine can kill everything and can't be stopped by anything, Is Marvel actually trying to destroy the point of their characters? This is pretty stupid. I guess Wolverine can kill pretty much any Jedi he wants. It wasn't that long ago he would have been slaughtered, and that's too bad, because that pretty much killed the last bit of respect I had for that character. Marvel has a terrible track record with this sort of thing. I guess the only thing that can kill wolverine is Marvel.

pps being hit by a jedi doesn't mean your incompetant, GiantMonkeyMan it just means a jedi hit you.

Setra

2007-06-12, 02:02 AM

I believe.. the most effective way of dispatching him, if a brain-hit knocks him out anyways..

Would be to stick the lightsaber in his mouth, pointed upwards, and turn it on.

Though I doubt they could :smalltongue:

Or, you know, force push him into a carbonite freezer thing.

averagejoe

2007-06-12, 02:48 AM

I am changing my opinion. Wolverine would totally win, because claws coming out of your hands are way cooler than lightsabers. Additionally, his mostly ruthless, "just this side of good" attitude is a refreshing change from the "holiness" point of view of the jedi. These reasons, coupled with a cooler costume and that one comic where he was shown partially in shadow and looked really cool, Wolverine would beat a jedi hands down.

Selrahc

2007-06-12, 03:27 AM

When has spider man weilded busses?

Not as standard, since they sit at the peak of his weight limit, but hes always been using cars as blunt instruments, been shifting massive boulders, and all the other stuff.

Spidey is, and always has been, super strong to a respectable degree. In the last year, his press limits went from 15 to 25 tonnes, but he has always been a lot stronger than anything biological should be.

And the Hulk can do way more impressive things than simply throwing buses.

*sigh* this is ridiculous apparently Wolverine can kill everything and can't be stopped by anything,

Hey, I never said that. I gave him acceptable odds at killing a Jedi, rather than just saying teh Jedi wins due to never used applications of the force, or random extrapolations of what the force does.

This is why Obi-wan would beat him. Obi-wan (who has been greatly disparaged in this thread) was a master of the the most highly defensive form.

I fail to see how a defensive form means he will win. As far as I'm concerned, one of the more offensive forms would have more luck, something that really attempts to drop the opponent hard and fast. Something like Form VII maybe.

I think being trained on the defensive if a bad idea against Wolverine, since you need to do a lopt of damage at once to drop him, and that isn't what the form is for.

(Grievous from the Cartoon and the Novel is truly awesome)

Even Greivous from the cartoon didn't really strike me as someone who could take Wolverine easily.

describing his Force counters to Grievous' millisecond attack speed

Well thats pretty much what Wolverine does. He fights people like the Gorgon, who are faster than Jedi. He strikes faster than a human possibly could. Wolverine is blazing quick.

I know that people who haven't read it will ignore me (probably not even respond),

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

The movies downplay many jedi abilities greatly. They're able to rather insane things through training and the Force. I don't think cutting someone's spine along the disks would be too much of a problem for these jedi.

And since Jedi have no training in dealing with bones, they would just be relying on the force. Not only that, they'd be blindly expecting the force to tell them what they are looking to hit.

serow

2007-06-12, 05:19 AM

If technically drowning works, does explosive decompression work too?

And after looking through the 1st 4 pages, if we go by "Force ethics" in general, Wolverine might be able to fight a Jedi Master but die instantly to a Sith Lord?

Expected...

EvilJames

2007-06-12, 05:53 AM

Hey, I never said that. I gave him acceptable odds at killing a Jedi, rather than just saying teh Jedi wins due to never used applications of the force, or random extrapolations of what the force does.

I gave him even odds to kill a knight I said a master wins because he's been doing pretty much what wolvie's been doing for a longer time and as superhuman reflexes along with precognition. I didn't extrapolate anything these are things the Jedi do,could do, and can do.

It's just that some where along the line one of my favorite marvel characters became something unrecognizable. My comment wasn't directed at you but more a statement of disbelief of how ridiculously overpowered wolverine suddenly became. Right now in his current incarnation Wolverine cannot be killed in any way since all damage heals instantly even if all thats left is the metallic bones, he can lift several tons with ease, and he's a genius tactition with a mind near impervious to influence.

My point now is that Wolverine shouldn't be this powerful and before any one says that I was making the jedi out to be all super powerful, the Jedi Masters are supposed to be, if I were sending a marvel character to kill one I'd send one thats supposed to have power level comparable to them, say Storm, Thor, Cable, Magneto and such. (Hulk might be an amusing fight as well)

Wolverine I would send after a knight ( as I have said) because he was on their level not long ago (spider-man would have to be used for knight as well since as far a marvel goes he isn't as experinced as the others but his powers are remarkably similar to some jedi stuff.

*sigh* oh well Wolverine can go kill whoever he wants I've lost interest in him

PS: having a hundred pound skeleton to carry around would actually not increase Wolverines strength very much unless he can put the skeleton down before he does something where he needed to be strong. otherwise any strength gained from that is just used for coping with the fact that he has to carry 100 extra pounds around.

tgva8889

2007-06-12, 06:04 AM

Just a wonder on Wolverine...

Assuming that Adamantium resists a lightsaber, while supposedly believable, isn't really true, because it has been states that the only material that resists a lightsaber is Cortosis. Because we all know that Adamantium is, indeed, not Cortosis, we can assume that Adamantium does not resist a lightsaber. The Blast Doors didn't resist a lightsaber. They were just really, really thick. In fact, even after he closed the blast doors (which, by the way, should survive a high-power laser blast, I believe), the lightsaber would have taken about 5 minutes to burn through. I mean, Qui-Gon nearly got through the door, and we were only watching him try for about 2-3 minutes. That's pretty impressive. I'm sure it wouldn't take nearly as long for a lightsaber to cut through a bone's width of Adamantium.

Anyways, since everyone seems to be assuming that Adamantium does, in fact, resist a lightsaber, then you have to go through each lightsaber form, assuming that Wolvie isn't fighting a multi-armed Jedi alien:

Form I: Wolvie wins. Form I is a fairly weak dueling form.

Form II: Since I believe the example practitioner of this form is Dooku, I believe that someone of this form would at least give Wolvie some sort of challenge, as Form II is the form which was developed for lightsaber dueling. It's likely that Wolverine would win against someone who isn't a true master of this form, but perhaps it would be more even. If the fight took too long, though, I believe Wolverine's increased stamina would likely defeat a Form II pracitioner.

Form III: The form that Obi-Wan practices. I believe that once Obi-Wan figured out enough of Wolverine's style, he might be able to surpass him enough to beat him, but considering a Jedi does, in fact, have stamina, I'd have to say that someone using this form would lose to Wolvie, who has ridiculous amounts of stamina, so he would likely outlast them.

Form IV: I believe this is Qui-Gon's form, the offensive form. This form would likely fail against Wolverine, simply because it would not only tire the user out faster, but also fail to really deal much damage to Wolvie, since it relies on the quick, sweeping lightsaber motions, not powerful ones.

Form V: Anakin's style, the balanced lightsaber style. This style, I think, is probably one of the more powerful styles to use against Wolverine. I think a master at this style (say, Master Luke) might be able to defeat Wolverine with it. Because of the agression in this style, it is likely that someone could push Wolverine back, then slash at the right point with enough force to push through, then continue to do this. Truely, it would be hard, but I imagine it would be possible.

Form VI: This form is also a rather weak form, and I would not consider anyone capable of using it to be able to defeat someone as skilled as Wolverine in combat.

Form VII: Ah, the most "powerful" style, in terms of physical strength. I think that someone who truly mastered this style could defeat Wolverine, and probably would have the most likely chance of defeating him. A Juyo practitioner would have a harder chance than a Vaapad user, but I believe that a Form VII pracitioner would be able to defeat Wolverine in 1-on-1 combat.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

So basically, what I've learned from this is that most Jedi Masters would fail to defeat Wolverine in combat, were they incased in an Adamantium room and told that the only way they could escape was if they were to fight their opponent to the death. However, one who was a true Master in Form V or Form VII Vaapad would be able to defeat him.

Wojiz

2007-06-12, 08:19 AM

MAKASHI!

...

Sorry, back on topic.

ravenkith

2007-06-12, 08:36 AM

Yoda lifts and holds up an entire X-Wing starfighter.

He also pins Palpatine against a wall with the force.

Luke, a total NOOB at the time, lifts and holds up several rocks simultaneously, as well as R2D2, while balancing on one arm.

Yeah, Jedi masters totally can't pick up some 3-600lb dude.

Ok.

So in order for Wolverine to win we've:

1. Assumed that adamantium can't simply be cut by a lightsaber.

2. Locked them in a adamantium box.

3. Denied the Master the ability to simply use the force to physically crush his brain

4. Stated that the holes in the skull, and gaps in the spine are simply too small of a target to be a threat

and

5. Completely ignored half of the source material on Jedi masters by cutting out EU stuff?

Never mind the fact that, in the movies alone, these are the guys who have protracted battles with armies of individuals while wielding nothing but a 'laser sword'.

Let us forget that they routinely fight in melee, are shown to be faster than mechanical and electronic reflexes on a regular basis, capable of great agility and skill in starfighter combats, surviving against all odds.

Oh, and yeah, flying around a moon-sized ship laden with guns just itching to whack you out, while flying an easily predictible path.

Luke, a realtive beginner on the pathways of the force, in the first movie, while flying at very fast speeds, managed to put a missile through a tube that it shouldn't have really been able to go down.

I mean, after that, splitting Wolverine's spine in two ought to be as easy as potting womp rats from a t-34, right?

...and Luke had only been trained for, at most, a day or two while en route to alderaan at that point.

Other Jedi Masters had been trained from childbirth. (See: Younglings).

The only reason they don't use their tk in the manner in question (to suspend someone in mid air) is it takes a bit of concentration, meaning they'd be vulnerable to other opponents: and most of the time, in order for it to even be a contest, they have to be hideously outnumbered.

The Jedi that died were mostly completely surrounded by enemies, and simply overwhelmed by the sheer number of blaster bolts: a lightsaber can only cover so much of a body at once, no matter how fast you are...if there is no way to survive over 100 simultaneous shots at one person, and the force tells the Jedi this, do you think they would cower and scream, or simply stand and meet their end bravely?

In a one-on one battle, the Jedi wins.

In order for Wolverine to 'win' the fight, you've had to stack the odds against the Jedi: this means that you've already conceded that the Jedi, without those modifications, would win hands down.

Even with your modifications, the Jedi simply picks the wolvster up and pins him against a wall. If the Jedi gets desperat, he can hold wolvie still like that while chopping off the guy's head.

I'm sorry, Wolverine is nice and all, one of my favorite X-men, but he just doesn't have the right power mix to go up against a jedi master, let alone a sith lord.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-12, 08:51 AM

I gave him even odds to kill a knight I said a master wins because he's been doing pretty much what wolvie's been doing for a longer time and as superhuman reflexes along with precognition. I didn't extrapolate anything these are things the Jedi do,could do, and can do.

What? Wolverine is a hundred and 20 years old and has spent about a hundred years in near constant battle. I can't think of any Jedi who have been around that long. As an order they have but not individually.

It's just that some where along the line one of my favorite marvel characters became something unrecognizable. My comment wasn't directed at you but more a statement of disbelief of how ridiculously overpowered wolverine suddenly became. Right now in his current incarnation Wolverine cannot be killed in any way since all damage heals instantly even if all thats left is the metallic bones, he can lift several tons with ease, and he's a genius tactition with a mind near impervious to influence.

Wolverine can't lift several tons and has never been able to. He can get maybe a thousand pounds if he really tries.

And when did you think he wasn't a genius tactician. He has been doing it since WW2, has been trained by the best minds in the field, and has the experience to recognize nearly every situation.

He has always resisted mental control, why do you think he was able to get away from Weapon X. And Xavier has added shields to his mind and taught him to resist physic intrusions.

My point now is that Wolverine shouldn't be this powerful and before any one says that I was making the jedi out to be all super powerful, the Jedi Masters are supposed to be, if I were sending a marvel character to kill one I'd send one thats supposed to have power level comparable to them, say Storm, Thor, Cable, Magneto and such. (Hulk might be an amusing fight as well)

Hulk would be a very funny fight. The more you whack at him the stronger he becomes.

But the best fight would be Jean Grey against any Jedi or Sith. Just so I can watch her incinerate every single one of them in a second or so.

*sigh* oh well Wolverine can go kill whoever he wants I've lost interest in him

Wolverine has always been one of Marvels most feared assassins. To the point where governments were offing their own people to hide information from him.

The only major power creep with him has been his healing. And that was explained.

ravenkith

2007-06-12, 09:06 AM

Sadly, not so much explanation anymore now that he has the adamantium back.

The explanation of his healing going off the charts was that adamantium is a poisonous mineral, and as such, having it in his body was retarding his healing factor.

He lost the metal, his healing factor ramped up to what it was always supposed to be...he got it back, it should have sunk back to it's original levels.

His healing factor as is, is unsupported by the explanations previously given.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-12, 09:46 AM

Actually he is in a state of continuous mutation and his healing factor (along with his other abilities) are supposed to increase over time. With the adamantium removed he mutated farther and his healing factor was at the point where it could regen his entire skeleton in seconds.

He got the metal back and now it takes him minutes.

Ras Sha'Akhamen

2007-06-12, 10:01 AM

Well, neither a lighsaber nor the force can break adamantium, by definition, and Wolverine will just heal anything else they do to him in a couple minutes, so I guess he wins.

13_CBS

2007-06-12, 10:16 AM

Another thing we ought to keep in mind is this: what time period JEdi are we talking about? For example, a Jedi MAster from the days of KOTOR might be more used to melee combat than a Jedi Master from the days of Episodes 1-3. Indeed, after the Sith had been dead for "over a milennium", the Jedi have had quite a lack of melee opponents to fight. Sure, they train and spar with each other in their training facilities...but how much of actual, life or death combat have they experienced with trained, I'll-kill-you-in-the-face enemies? Like Sith? By the time of the movies, only the very VERY best masters have faced off against worthy melee opponents, and less than a handful against sith. The rest are more used to deflecting blaster bolts and killing droids than swordsmen.

Thus, I agree with Tippy in that Wolverine has the advantage in battle experience, unless he fights with someone like Yoda.

But there's still the issue of the Jedis' force powers. What are their limits, ethical or otherwise? What would prevent them from simply, say, wrenching apart Wolverine's heart for several minutes until his blood flow is completely wacked out? Or crushing his brain? Or just lifting him up off of the ground and choking the life out of him? And etc.

ZeroNumerous

2007-06-12, 10:53 AM

What? Wolverine is a hundred and 20 years old and has spent about a hundred years in near constant battle. I can't think of any Jedi who have been around that long. As an order they have but not individually.

Any of the Jedi who aren't human and originate from the Old Republic-era would easily be able to top a hundred and twenty years of combat training. And it'd be training against opponents who are significantly more dangerous than nazis.

And when did you think he wasn't a genius tactician. He has been doing it since WW2, has been trained by the best minds in the field, and has the experience to recognize nearly every situation.

That doesn't mean he auto-understands the Force, Jedi, or that the sword made of light hurts really freakin' bad until after he gets cut/TK'd/talked at.

Hulk would be a very funny fight. The more you whack at him the stronger he becomes.

But the best fight would be Jean Grey against any Jedi or Sith. Just so I can watch her incinerate every single one of them in a second or so.

Hulk: That would be hilarious. Simply because it's an extremely single-minded opponent facing off against an enemy with quite a few options at his disposal.

Jean Gray: Exar Kun. He tears out her soul. Can we move on from this extremely silly "Who's better: Marvel VS Star Wars" argument and get onto the actual matter at hand?

Wolverine has always been one of Marvels most feared assassins. To the point where governments were offing their own people to hide information from him.

And a Jedi has precognitive powers. Unless Wolverine has some way to hide himself from the Force(Guess what: He doesn't), then the Jedi would see him coming.

serow

2007-06-12, 11:28 AM

For a moment, I just had this image of a Frenzied Berserker duking it out with a gestalt Fighter/Psion...

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-12, 11:40 AM

Any of the Jedi who aren't human and originate from the Old Republic-era would easily be able to top a hundred and twenty years of combat training. And it'd be training against opponents who are significantly more dangerous than nazis.

Wolverine has been fighting enemies significantly more dangerous than Nazis.

And which Jedi have been around that long?

That doesn't mean he auto-understands the Force, Jedi, or that the sword made of light hurts really freakin' bad until after he gets cut/TK'd/talked at.

Yes, but he will be able to grasp the forms very quickly. He is a master wit ha katana. He knows how a sword works. HE has fought energy swords before. Its nothing incredibly new.

Hulk: That would be hilarious. Simply because it's an extremely single-minded opponent facing off against an enemy with quite a few options at his disposal.

Yeah. It would be fun to watch.

Jean Gray: Exar Kun. He tears out her soul. Can we move on from this extremely silly "Who's better: Marvel VS Star Wars" argument and get onto the actual matter at hand?

Jean Grey has eaten a sun. She would crush any Jedi, even the best Sith masters of all time, almost instantly.

And a Jedi has precognitive powers. Unless Wolverine has some way to hide himself from the Force(Guess what: He doesn't), then the Jedi would see him coming.

They were shot by clone troopers. It obviously isn't that great a power.

Selrahc

2007-06-12, 11:44 AM

Yes, but he will be able to grasp the forms very quickly. He is a master wit ha katana. He knows how a sword works. HE has fought energy swords before. Its nothing incredibly new.

Especially because he will actually know about Star Wars. He lives in modern day earth.

13_CBS

2007-06-12, 12:18 PM

Especially because he will actually know about Star Wars. He lives in modern day earth.

Pfft, moron. Didn't you know that Wolverine's a huge Star Wars fan? He knows more about saber combat than the Jedi do.

:smalltongue:

Foeofthelance

2007-06-12, 12:20 PM

Any of the Jedi who aren't human and originate from the Old Republic-era would easily be able to top a hundred and twenty years of combat training. And it'd be training against opponents who are significantly more dangerous than nazis.

Wolverine probably spent about six or seven years fighting Nazis. He's spent somewhere between thirty and fifty dealing with people like Sabretooth, Magneto, Lady Deathstrike, the Hand, Hydra, The X-Men, The Avengers, The Hulk, and a rather largish chunk of the Marvel universe. If they were born, Logan has probably thrown down with them at some point, and due to his healing has walked away afterwords, even if he didn't necessarily win. Mind you, that's combat experience not combat training. Training means you do the same things over and over, whether its good or bad. Experience means you find out what is bad and stop doing it. Out of all the Jedi masters mentioned, I think only Yoda has the edge over Logan, what with being all of five or six hundred years old.

Jean Gray: Exar Kun. He tears out her soul. Can we move on from this extremely silly "Who's better: Marvel VS Star Wars" argument and get onto the actual matter at hand?

No, we can't leave it alone, it's fun! :smallbiggrin: as for Exar Kun sucking out Jean's soul, all that would accomplish is leaving behind one very PO'd Pheonix Force in a mortal shell, and for some reason the Pheonix force has taken a liking to Jean. Why else would it have put off eating existence for so long? Exar Kun is great, but the Universe is better.

And a Jedi has precognitive powers. Unless Wolverine has some way to hide himself from the Force(Guess what: He doesn't), then the Jedi would see him coming.

I would like to point at that few, if any, Jedi have ever displayed true precog powers. Yes they can feel intent, but if they can't tell that a five foot, 600 pound, hairy mad mand with six gleaming claws popped out of his wrist doesn't intend them harm they're screwed anyway. Yes, they can detect a blow a few seconds before it happens, but they still have to block it on their own. The force can guide them, yes. But I can guide you to a flight of stairs, and you still have to walk up it. As for masking himself...he might be, depending on the situation. Wolverine has been able to pull a few on the psychics he's fought. Whether that's been his won talent, or because they weren't paying attention, I don't know. But he'd probably have to do it before going into full battle mode. He might be able to sneak up relatively close to a Jedi, but he wouldn't be able to suppress where his moves were headed.

It's just that some where along the line one of my favorite marvel characters became something unrecognizable. My comment wasn't directed at you but more a statement of disbelief of how ridiculously overpowered wolverine suddenly became. Right now in his current incarnation Wolverine cannot be killed in any way since all damage heals instantly even if all thats left is the metallic bones, he can lift several tons with ease, and he's a genius tactition with a mind near impervious to influence.

I think that's mostly fan reactions, and Marvel doesn't bother to deny it. He's never lifted as much as ton, at least as far as I can recall. His healing is bit advanced them from his early days, but that's hardly overwhelming, especially when every one else is picking up new powers. As for being a genius tactician, I would never put Logan in charge of a military force. He's style is much too direct, and much more suited to medival warfare then it is to the modern applications. He's good for setting ambushes, yes, and he's a brilliant comabt fighter, but I don't think he's ever displayed any tactical brilliance in the comics. As for killing anything, sure. If it stands still long enough for him. In assuming that Wolverine could kill a Jedi, you also have to assume that the Jedi is willing to stand there and press the issue. Otherwise, what's stopping them from force jumping away? Wolverine doesn't kill everything, he let's a remarkable number of people escape. The psychic shields have had so many redundancies in place, and more get added after each time Wolvierine flips. So yeah, he doesn't qualify as "weak minded". But top level psychics (Xavier, Jean, Emma) are still capable of going around.

Especially because he will actually know about Star Wars. He lives in modern day earth.

It does say a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away... that's some serious time lag on those signal Lucas detected.

ZeroNumerous

2007-06-12, 12:24 PM

Wolverine has been fighting enemies significantly more dangerous than Nazis.

And which Jedi have been around that long?

Lets see, off the top of my head theres the Yoda-ripoff from KotoR, theres also any of the Ithorian Jedi, since they live significantly longer than humans, and then theres Darth Bane, who, as far as described, lived until he was ancient.

Yeah. It would be fun to watch.

I just had the image of Hulk volleyball.

Jean Grey has eaten a sun. She would crush any Jedi, even the best Sith masters of all time, almost instantly.

Exar Kun selectively killed an entire species to prolong his life, as well as detonated suns. He freakin' tore Luke Skywalker's soul from his body! He's destroyed immensely powerful dark side spirits. Jean Grey is strong, but restrained to the physical. Exar Kun can, literally, tear out her soul. The Phoenix Force shows no such aspects, as attacks of the soul are the realm of magic and 'divine' characters within the Marvel Universe. Jean Grey loses.

They were shot by clone troopers. It obviously isn't that great a power.

Shot by clone troopers who's motives were hidden by Palpatine. Thats why I said "unless he has some way to mask himself", which he doesn't. Further, I'd go so far as say that Wolverine would be able to sense even more easily simply because of how he's constantly angry.

Selrahc: If you wanna divide them into Universes, then the Jedi calls in an orbital bombardment from an Acclamator-class. Or just tells the several hundred thousand Clones at his back to just fire at the guy. Or adamantium, not being cortosis-woven, would be cut by a lightsaber like butter. If we're going through the motions of a debate, then pre-knowledge about your opponent through media/internet/what-have-you wouldn't be allowed as it is a one-on-one fight.

Mind you, that's combat experience not combat training. Training means you do the same things over and over, whether its good or bad. Experience means you find out what is bad and stop doing it. Out of all the Jedi masters mentioned, I think only Yoda has the edge over Logan, what with being all of five or six hundred years old.

I said Old Republic Jedi. They've dealt with Sith. Namely, during the era in question, Exar Kun was alive. As well as Revan, Malak, and an entire Sith armada. Thats not counting the Mandalorians or any of the twisted Sith creations from the older wars. A Jedi from the Old Republic era would be equally experienced.

No, we can't leave it alone, it's fun! :smallbiggrin: as for Exar Kun sucking out Jean's soul, all that would accomplish is leaving behind one very PO'd Pheonix Force in a mortal shell, and for some reason the Pheonix force has taken a liking to Jean. Why else would it have put off eating existence for so long? Exar Kun is great, but the Universe is better.

The Force is the Universe. Exar Kun tears out her soul, killing Jean Grey. The Phoenix Force is irrelevant, since it's a debate about Jean Grey. And if we continue with mixing universes, Exar Kun would be able to command the Phoenix Force based on the fact that he has obscene command over the Force itself.

I would like to point at that few, if any, Jedi have ever displayed true precog powers. ... The force can guide them, yes.

Uh.. You realize you're pretty far off on that one. Every Jedi who's ever said "I feel a disturbance in the Force" has shown precognitive powers. As for the Force guiding someone.. You leading a blind man to a stairwell isn't appropriate. More appropriately, the Force leading someone would be like a blind man telepathically 'seeing' through someone else's eyes.

Foeofthelance

2007-06-12, 12:41 PM

Uh.. You realize you're pretty far off on that one. Every Jedi who's ever said "I feel a disturbance in the Force" has shown precognitive powers. As for the Force guiding someone.. You leading a blind man to a stairwell isn't appropriate. More appropriately, the Force leading someone would be like a blind man telepathically 'seeing' through someone else's eyes.

I never said a blind man, I said you. Who I am assuming is entirely capable of walking up a flight of stairs. Unless you are blind, at which point I apologize. Though I do admit a passing curiosity as to how you did, if you are, read that post. Print to Voice software?

Even when they say they feel disturbance in the force though, they aren't really saying much. At most times it has to do with a threat in the immediate vicinity, or with some massive event, such as the destruction of Aldeeran. I do recall actual precog events from the EU, where a Jedi saw something that had yet to occur, but those were rare instances, during which the person had no control over the vision. They were nothing like the emotional scanning that some people seem to mistake for precog ablities.

The Force is the Universe. Exar Kun tears out her soul, killing Jean Grey. The Phoenix Force is irrelevant, since it's a debate about Jean Grey. And if we continue with mixing universes, Exar Kun would be able to command the Phoenix Force based on the fact that he has obscene command over the Force itself.

The force is not the universe, it merely helps hold the universe together. Slapping ductape on a leaky canoe does not make the duct tape the canoe, merely a part of it. The Pheonix force literally is part of the universe. It decides when it is time to start over from scratch. It is relevant, because the Pheonix is part of Jean, as she taps it's powers. That's why it's a Pheonix Manifestation when she taps it. As for Exar commanding the Pheonix force, I'm not even sure that's possible. Not even Jean seems to command it. The Pheonix just lends her power because it likes her, and she can handle it with out being consumed by the Pheonix. If Exar tried to absorb it, the Pheonix would most likely just consume him from the inside. Having obscene command over the force does not, after all, make him the Force itself. Perhaps the entirety of the Force would be equal to the Pheonix, but since the Force is scattered between all life and the Pheonix is bound with in a single entity, the Pheonix wins. In order to match the Pheonix the Force would have to coalesce into a single person, stripping itself from all other life, which would in turn greatly diminish the force.

ZeroNumerous

2007-06-12, 12:49 PM

I never said a blind man, I said you. Who I am assuming is entirely capable of walking up a flight of stairs. Unless you are blind, at which point I apologize. Though I do admit a passing curiosity as to how you did, if you are, read that post. Print to Voice software?

I'm not, but I said blind-man because it makes an easier analogy. Referencing 'me' would be hard, since I can see just fine so why would I need to look through someone else's eyes? Plus, controlling those other eyes would be very hard for me to adapt to without extensive training. Hence, the blind-man reference. Which, honestly, is appropriate since Jedi are as dangerous as a blind-man with a lightsaber when stripped of the Force.

Foeofthelance

2007-06-12, 12:55 PM

I'm not, but I said blind-man because it makes an easier analogy. Referencing 'me' would be hard, since I can see just fine so why would I need to look through someone else's eyes? Plus, controlling those other eyes would be very hard for me to adapt to without extensive training. Hence, the blind-man reference. Which, honestly, is appropriate since Jedi are as dangerous as a blind-man with a lightsaber when stripped of the Force.

Except, as far as I can tell it makes the analogy incorrect. The Force does not allow them to see through someone else's eyes, it allows them to enhance their own awareness of the situation. Actually, the Force may allow them to see through the eyes of others, but that's a sepearte ability, which is nothing like how they sense coming blows. It's more of being hyper aware of the opponent's body language then anything else. Though I do agree on the dangers of Jedi with lightsabers and no Force.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-12, 01:02 PM

Exar Kun selectively killed an entire species to prolong his life, as well as detonated suns. He freakin' tore Luke Skywalker's soul from his body! He's destroyed immensely powerful dark side spirits. Jean Grey is strong, but restrained to the physical. Exar Kun can, literally, tear out her soul. The Phoenix Force shows no such aspects, as attacks of the soul are the realm of magic and 'divine' characters within the Marvel Universe. Jean Grey loses.

Jean Grey has killed over 5 billion people because she was hungry. She has defeated Galactus on her own, easily. She has defeated the entire She'ar Imperial Guard, including Gladiator, when she was in a very weakened state and with Jean fighting herself.

She can transmute any material into anything else. She can use the life energy of people yet to be born.

As White Phoenix of the Crown she is as powerful as the living tribunal.

She would crush Exar Kun with a thought.

Shot by clone troopers who's motives were hidden by Palpatine. Thats why I said "unless he has some way to mask himself", which he doesn't. Further, I'd go so far as say that Wolverine would be able to sense even more easily simply because of how he's constantly angry.

There motives weren't hidden according to the most cannon starwars source.

Selrahc: If you wanna divide them into Universes, then the Jedi calls in an orbital bombardment from an Acclamator-class. Or just tells the several hundred thousand Clones at his back to just fire at the guy. Or adamantium, not being cortosis-woven, would be cut by a lightsaber like butter. If we're going through the motions of a debate, then pre-knowledge about your opponent through media/internet/what-have-you wouldn't be allowed as it is a one-on-one fight.

If we go by universe Wolverine gets to bring in the X-Men. Including Jean Grey.

The Force is the Universe. Exar Kun tears out her soul, killing Jean Grey. The Phoenix Force is irrelevant, since it's a debate about Jean Grey. And if we continue with mixing universes, Exar Kun would be able to command the Phoenix Force based on the fact that he has obscene command over the Force itself.

The Phoenix force and Jean Grey are one. She literally holds the universe, past present and future, in the palm of her hand.

Ras Sha'Akhamen

2007-06-12, 01:17 PM

But there's still the issue of the Jedis' force powers. What are their limits, ethical or otherwise? What would prevent them from simply, say, wrenching apart Wolverine's heart for several minutes until his blood flow is completely wacked out? Or crushing his brain? Or just lifting him up off of the ground and choking the life out of him? And etc.

He can heal himself from all of those things.
The only thing that can kill him is removing his head from his body for a sustained period of time. Which, since adamantium can only be destroyed by anti-metal vibranium (which isn't really around in the starwars universe), pretty much mputs a crimp on actually killing him. The Jedi will die of thirst or starvation, even if he manages to keep Wolverine away that long, before he actually kills Wolverine. Hell, he'd die of old age before he killed Wolverine.

If we go by universe Wolverine gets to bring in the X-Men. Including Jean Grey.

And, probably, Deadpool, who literally cannot die. Thanos cursed him to be unable to die under any conditions ever, period. That's a big plus in a fight to the death.

I shouldn't need to even bring up why the Scarlet Witch (with her powers) wins. "No more mutants Jedi."

ZeroNumerous

2007-06-12, 01:28 PM

Jean Grey has killed over 5 billion people because she was hungry. She has defeated Galactus on her own, easily. She has defeated the entire She'ar Imperial Guard, including Gladiator, when she was in a very weakened state and with Jean fighting herself.

She can transmute any material into anything else. She can use the life energy of people yet to be born.

As White Phoenix of the Crown she is as powerful as the living tribunal.

She would crush Exar Kun with a thought.

Again, all physical affects. The world of souls is untouchable by Jean Grey. Exar Kun wins on basis of being completely and utterly unaffected by everything Jean Grey can do. Seriously, this isn't even a debate since you haven't read up on what exactly Exar Kun is.

There motives weren't hidden according to the most cannon starwars source.

Clone Trooper: Yo, hey, we're gonna kill you guys now.
Jedi: Kkthxbai.

No, it doesn't happen. The Clones knew about Order 66, they hid that fact from the Jedi. There are things you shouldn't have to say, such as hiding the fact that you're going to kill someone.

If we go by universe Wolverine gets to bring in the X-Men. Including Jean Grey.

Ok then, any of the Jedi command the Phoenix Force, by universe, simply on the basis that they can command the Force, which is also the entire universe. Honestly, this part of the discussion was silly when the "he saw it on TV" moment came in. Why are we continuing it?

The Phoenix force and Jean Grey are one. She literally holds the universe, past present and future, in the palm of her hand.

So any Jedi would, by proxy, control Jean Grey? Awesome.

Wojiz

2007-06-12, 01:45 PM

This entire argument is breaking down because we haven't named exactly who the Jedi Master is, and that would vary the argument greatly.

Without naming the Master, it's going nowhere.

Foeofthelance

2007-06-12, 01:46 PM

Again, all physical affects. The world of souls is untouchable by Jean Grey.

Jean's Telekinetic abilities aside, the Pheonix does allow her to manipulate souls, as depicted in her interactions with Quinten Quire after he get's his soul released, and during Grant Morrison's final issues of NEw X-Men, where the pheonix is holding souls in limbo to talk with them.

Ok then, any of the Jedi command the Phoenix Force, by universe, simply on the basis that they can command the Force, which is also the entire universe. Honestly, this part of the discussion was silly when the "he saw it on TV" moment came in. Why are we continuing it?

Because the Force =/= the universe. This has been said before. The Force is used to hold the universe together. The Pheonix runs the universe. So actually that would be reversed. One padawan annoys Jean, all Jedi find themselves powerless.

Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy
The Phoenix force and Jean Grey are one. She literally holds the universe, past present and future, in the palm of her hand.

So any Jedi would, by proxy, control Jean Grey? Awesome.
__________________

Except that in order to hold the universe, one must be outside it. So no, no Jedi control of the Pheonix. Yeah, Exar Kun sundered Luke's soul from his body. But that was hardly permanent. I wiki'd him. Powerful yeah, more powerful then most. But he's not quite up to Universal Entity standards there. He's on par with most of the Omega level mutants, really. Especially once the telepaths start throwing down against him. Jedi are telekinteic empaths, and the Sith aren't much different really.

Seriously, in comparison the Marvel 616 universe is much more powerful taken as a whole then the Star Wars Universe. The various fleets porbably match up against each other rather nicely, but then the Shi'ar call on Gladiator and the rest, the Skrulls pull out the Super Skrull, Earth alone would cause most of the Star Wars characters fits, what with the way powers are so randomly distributed.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-12, 03:17 PM

Again, all physical affects. The world of souls is untouchable by Jean Grey. Exar Kun wins on basis of being completely and utterly unaffected by everything Jean Grey can do. Seriously, this isn't even a debate since you haven't read up on what exactly Exar Kun is.

She has command of the future power of the generations. The Phoenix literally controls all life and death in the universe.

Take all of the power of every living thing in an entire generation. Now multiply that by billions of generations. That is the power Jean can bring to bear as White Phoenix of the Crown.

She literally controls time, space, and the universe.

Clone Trooper: Yo, hey, we're gonna kill you guys now.
Jedi: Kkthxbai.

No, it doesn't happen. The Clones knew about Order 66, they hid that fact from the Jedi. There are things you shouldn't have to say, such as hiding the fact that you're going to kill someone.

Incorrect. They were able to do it because they had absolutely no malice and it wasn't unlawful. They were just following orders, without remorse or regret. There was no strong emotion for the Jedi to sense.

Ok then, any of the Jedi command the Phoenix Force, by universe, simply on the basis that they can command the Force, which is also the entire universe. Honestly, this part of the discussion was silly when the "he saw it on TV" moment came in. Why are we continuing it?

"It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together."

Its the energy of all living things. Jean has command of the energy of every thing that has ever lived or will ever live.

Jean as White Phoenix of the Crown is the most powerful entity in the entire marvel universe. Her only real rival power wise is the Living Tribunal. And she can't be killed permanently. She just comes back.

So any Jedi would, by proxy, control Jean Grey? Awesome.
Think again. Jean controls all life. Including that of the Jedi and the force.

Exar Kun was no slouch, in fact I would rank him as one of the most powerful sith masters of all time, but he is still nothing compared to Jean as White Phoenix of the Crown.

Blue Paladin

2007-06-12, 03:18 PM

Adamantine is virtually indestructible by ordinary means. A Jedi's lightsaber is far from ordinary means. Wolvie's toast.[Adamantine has hardness 20.] Adamantium is virtually indestructible by non-cosmic means. A Jedi's lightsaber is far from cosmic means.

Assuming that Adamantium resists a lightsaber, while supposedly believable, isn't really true, because it has been state[d] that the only material that resists a lightsaber is Cortosis. Because we all know that Adamantium is, indeed, not Cortosis, we can assume that Adamantium does not resist a lightsaber.Faulty assumption: "Cortosis is the only material that resists a lightsaber". A quick Google & Wikipedia search turns up the existence of Phrik, a dense alloy that resists lightsabers. Grievous' MagnaGuard IG-100s had staves made of this material. Alchemically treated Sith Swords resist lightsabers. Vibroshields can block lightsabers. Yuuzhan Vong Amphistaves parry lightsabers.

Adamantium's given property is "unbreakable". Lightsabers have been shown to be unable to cut through many and various substances, including living tissue (amphistaff) and a simple metal alloy (phrik). Why does anyone assume lightsabers can cut through adamantium?

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-12, 03:38 PM

The Force doesn't "help" hold the universe together in Star Wars. It's the very essense of the universe. The intent and soul of it. If there was no Force, there would be no universe because there would be no want for existence. The Force is trippy.

EvilJames

2007-06-13, 12:11 AM

It was mentioned that wolverine threw 20 poeple threw a wall, assuming it they were average sized adult males and that they were all thrown at once which was implied that adds up to about 4 tons so apparently he has lifted (and thrown 4 tons, unless the other poster is mistaken) Why would he be a master tacticion? through out his career he has always been the one reciving orders not giving, he is rarly in charge his decisions are often rash and he routinly plays into traps set for him, nothing seems to indicate that he has anysort of tactical mind yet he is somehow supposed to be a tactical genius.
H doesn't resist mental control thats why all these other organizations keep brainwashing him (after they trap him) now some help from xavior would make sense but it never seems to come into play the only thing that breaks him out of it is another psycic or the standard things that always break the brainwashed or controlled out of it in stories (ie family, friends, loved ones) so it seems to me that ther has been quite a power creep indeed (more of a bull rush really) and noen of ithas been adaquitly explained, not even the healing (yes it increases without adamantium but it's back now and he is able to heal his entire body back In mere minutes)

Exar kun vs pheonix sounds interesting and as neutral observer who knows very little about either (Never read anything with exar and have little interest in Jean " angsty dies-a-lot" grey) but judging by the dscriptions of both of there powers and deeds I don't think it would be a one side fight at all but it would destroy a great deal of the galaxy. I have no idea what any of the implications of the white crown are but it sounds like they both have a great deal of powers that can affect each other. In the end it will come down to who has the most control. (story wise since the pheonix is a good guy again Igues she would eventually win)

As for jedi being old Yoda was over 800 years old. He also implys that the force extends there life so any number of the jedi masters could be as old if not older than Wolverine

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-13, 12:39 AM

Exar kun vs pheonix sounds interesting and as neutral observer who knows very little about either (Never read anything with exar and have little interest in Jean " angsty dies-a-lot" grey) but judging by the dscriptions of both of there powers and deeds I don't think it would be a one side fight at all but it would destroy a great deal of the galaxy. I have no idea what any of the implications of the white crown are but it sounds like they both have a great deal of powers that can affect each other. In the end it will come down to who has the most control. (story wise since the pheonix is a good guy again Igues she would eventually win)

No, Jean wins with a thought in an instant. Exar Kun, as powerful as he is, exists inside the universe. The phoenix literally holds the entire universe in the palm of her hand, able to do whatever with it on a whim. She has access to the life energy of every single thing that ever has and ever will exist.

The only one said to rival her power is the living tribunal.

As for Exar forcing the phoenix force out of Jeans body, it can't happen. She is the phoenix and it is her.

Marvel as a whole is far more powerful than the Starwars universe, that power distribution is just very uneven compared to the starwars power distribution.

Exar Kun kills a planets worth of people, darth bane moves a moon. Jean eats a sun instantly killing over 5 billion people and destroying an entire solar system, in about 30 seconds.

Nerd-o-rama

2007-06-13, 03:00 AM

Why does anyone assume lightsabers can cut through adamantium?
Because there's no empirical evidence either way, so both sides are going to apply "logic" to support whichever preconceived notion of the victor they have?

Re: Jedi vs. Phoenix: The Jedi can use the Force. The White Phoenix of the Crown, as I understand it, is the Force (of the Marvel 616 Universe, which doesn't necessarily include a galaxy far, far away) given will and consciousness. I believe, placed in the same universe, she wins.

Mr. Mud

2007-06-13, 07:10 AM

Lightsabers cut everything except certain special metals, such as cortosis and phrik. Now, if Wolverine's skeleton was developed in a Star Wars setting, it would make sense if it was reinforced with cortosis (though it should be noted that would weaken the skeleton overall, as cortosis is very brittle); however, it was instead developed in the Marvel universe, in which cortosis does not exist and there is no reason to develop anti-lightsaber materials. Now, Wolverine has a much shorter reach than a lightsaber, and the Jedi has heightened Force senses that endow him with suberb reflexes and combat ability. Thus, the Jedi swings his lightsaber and kills Wolverine.

I Agree on the cortosis thing, but, You are forgetting WOLVERINE'S
"heightened senses that endow him with suberb reflexes and combat ability"

i think it would be close but since the Jedi has force Push/Pull/Sheild/Heal/Jump/Speed ect... would eventually win. :smallsmile:

elliott20

2007-06-13, 09:46 AM

this is why characters like Jean Grey annoy the piss out of me. Why not just throw "God" on her mantle and be done wtih it?

Ras Sha'Akhamen

2007-06-13, 10:13 AM

Because there's no empirical evidence either way, so both sides are going to apply "logic" to support whichever preconceived notion of the victor they have?

Well, I don't think logic should be quite-so-much in quotes both ways. There have been shown to be a decent number of materials lightsabers can't cut through. There is one thing which can destroy adamantium; vibranium. Vibranium doesn't even "cut" through it, it breaks down its molecular structure, which Lightsabers certainly do not do. If it were really established in Canon that lightsabers could cut through anything but one metal that adamantium is not, it would be one thing, but there are a lot of things they can't cut through. It's much less likely for there to be a second Adamantium killer (especially since lasers of other sorts haven't succeeded) than it is one more sabre-resistant.

Nerd-o-rama

2007-06-13, 12:54 PM

It's not so much that the logic isn't there is that you're using the rather silly premise of respectively "lightsabers can be stopped by more things that don't exist in the Marvel Universe than adamantium can, ipso facto adamantium wins" or "lightsabers can cut through anything except listed exceptions, ipso facto lightsabers win". Neither is exactly Descartes-level rhetorical skill.

13_CBS

2007-06-13, 01:16 PM

ravenkith

2007-06-13, 01:20 PM

It doesn't matter.

Lightsabers are irrelevant.

Jedi wins based on telekinesis.

He has absolutely no need to engage Wolverine in melee.

Blue Paladin

2007-06-13, 01:24 PM

Note that the fact that lightsabers cannot be stopped by lots of different materials does not necessarily mean that it can cut through adamantium. Cutting through lots of objects means nothing, other than that it can cut through lots of objects. It does not rule out being stopped by adamantium.

Nerd-o-rama

2007-06-13, 01:26 PM

Note that the fact that lightsabers can be stopped by cortosis, phrik, etc. does not necessarily mean that it cannot cut through adamantium. Being stopped by more objects means nothing, other than that it can be stopped by more objects. It does not rule out cutting through adamantium.

Note that the fact that lightsabers cannot be stopped by lots of different materials does not necessarily mean that it can cut through adamantium. Cutting through lots of objects means nothing, other than that it can cut through lots of objects. It does not rule out being stopped by adamantium.
Exactly my point. Let's just file the question under "NP", shall we?

I'm new to this argument, but inclined to agree with "Jedi wins by TK". Any thoughts from the opposition? Remember that Wolverine has no backup in this scenario. A Jedi Master could just keep juggling him all day, crush or slice his unprotected windpipe (which may or may not put him down long enough for a coup de grace through the eye or the ribcage), pin his limbs and cut him up (okay, maybe we're getting into Sith tactics now). Counterarguments?

EvilJames

2007-06-13, 01:39 PM

ravenkith

2007-06-13, 01:43 PM

Counterarguments?

The wolverine fanbois don't have any, when it comes to TK.

I originally suggested the Jedi could just pick Wolverine up with the force (a la Yoda + X-wing) and drown him in a nearby handy pool of water until he was unconscious or dead....

The wolverine fanboys immediately moved the fight venue to a featureless adamantium room, thus conceding the point.

As much as I like his character, Wolverine has no defense against TK.

He loses. It's over. Ring the bell already.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-13, 02:11 PM

She maybe powerful but it doesn't sound like she's done anything exar hasn't I said she'd win but i don't think it would be instant. If she can now just crush eveything in a second then she'd be even more boring that wolverine (and she'd still die the very next appearnce she made) I mean come on when are the x-men gonna even fight the living tribunal (also I thought here were supposed to be several things equal to him if not greater)

When has Exar ate a sun? When has Exar traveled through time? When has Exar teleported to the other side of the universe?

Jean is a god.

And Death, Eternity, and Galactus are just faces of the living tribunal. So who would you say is more powerful than all 3 of them combined?

ravenkith

2007-06-13, 02:19 PM

Jean Grey is not a god.

She can be killed (however temporarily).

In addition, depending on which version of Jean Grey you are talking about, her power level varies greatly.

By all rights, you're actually talking about the Phoenix/Phoenix Force, which is a seperate entity from Jean Grey, which occasionally allies itself with the mortal Mutant known as Jean Grey.

As such, Jean Grey has access to a crapton of power.

Power which makes her go insane from time to time.

In addition, the Phoenix force will act to return Jean Grey to life if it will be sufficiently interesting/beneficial to the Force itself.

Being trapped in the M'Kraan Crystal must get extremely dull, after all.

Jean Grey, however, is not the source of said power, much like a Jedi, she merely channels it.

I have no dobts that in her current incarnation, with the full power of the phoenix force behind her, she could easily wipe the floor with any Jedi or Sith.

Jean Grey (Phoenix Style) wins.

Emperor Tippy

2007-06-13, 02:26 PM

Jean Grey is not a god.

She is now. Once she became White Phoenix of the Crown she became one.

She can be killed (however temporarily).

In addition, depending on which version of Jean Grey you are talking about, her power level varies greatly.

By all rights, you're actually talking about the Phoenix/Phoenix Force, which is a seperate entity from Jean Grey, which occasionally allies itself with the mortal Mutant known as Jean Grey.

Not anymore. Her and the Phoenix are 1 entity now. She is the Phoenix. That is what her being White Phoenix of the Crown essentially is.

As such, Jean Grey has access to a crapton of power.

Power which makes her go insane from time to time.

Again, not anymore. It wont make her go insane any more.

In addition, the Phoenix force will act to return Jean Grey to life if it will be sufficiently interesting/beneficial to the Force itself.

Being trapped in the M'Kraan Crystal must get extremely dull, after all.

Jean Grey, however, is not the source of said power, much like a Jedi, she merely channels it.

I have no dobts that in her current incarnation, with the full power of the phoenix force behind her, she could easily wipe the floor with any Jedi or Sith.

Jean Grey (Phoenix Style) wins.

Yeah, but Jean Grey is the phoenix now. She isn't a Phoenix Host or a mutant that the phoenix likes and gives some power to. She is, body and soul, the phoenix.

Why do you think she is hanging out in teh white room instead of down helping out her friends? Its because she is far to powerful and she nwo amounts to a deus ex machina.

Foeofthelance

2007-06-13, 03:32 PM

I originally suggested the Jedi could just pick Wolverine up with the force (a la Yoda + X-wing) and drown him in a nearby handy pool of water until he was unconscious or dead....

The wolverine fanboys immediately moved the fight venue to a featureless adamantium room, thus conceding the point.

As a wolverine "fanboi" I will now move the fight to random locations in the Star Wars universe. Let's begin.

Tatooine- Large desert planet. Little or no cover, but also no available pools of water to drown Wolverine. Not much of anything really. Pit of Sarlaac proves inconsequential, as Wolverine would just climb out, a la Fett. Fight goes to the better combatant. Logan has 75% chance against most jedi, though it reduces to about 30% for fights against the likes of Luke and Yoda.

Bespin- Advantage is definitely to the Jedi. Not much water, but not much land either. Throwing Wolverine off then platforms work just as well.

Coruscant- No advantage to either side. Plenty of things to bounce Logan off of, but no real place to drown him that is normally convenient. Also plenty of places for Logan to hide in and heal should things start to go against him though. After getting beaten down Wolverine begins to actually think about things.

Yavin IV- Jungle Planet. Slight advantage to Wolverine. Odds are about 55% in Wolverine's favor, as he is a much better tracker then most Jedi could ever hope to be. Ability to use the force is diminished, as there are plenty of things in the jungle that probably see the Jedi as highly annoying snacks. (Not saying the Jedi are highly annoying snacks, just pointing out predatory instinct. If the defense can't be seen, it isn't there.) This clouds Logan's own hostility. Still requires a straight up fight. Throwing Wolverine means the Jedi also loses track of him.

Mustafar- Advantage Jedi. Lava is just water that burns.

Deathstar- Advantage to Wolverine. Closed corridors mean close combat, which he excels at. Throwing him down shafts just means he's limping at the bottom.

Alderaan- Advantage depends on terrain. Alderaan is a m,ix of the previous battle grounds.

These are places in the Star Wars universe, which should in theory give the Jedi an advantage. Obviously, they don't. Just saying "Drown him using TK!" is about as silly as just relying on adamantium rooms. Neither is a guarenteed situation, and is only a partial answer to the question.

Indon

2007-06-13, 03:39 PM

And Death, Eternity, and Galactus are just faces of the living tribunal. So who would you say is more powerful than all 3 of them combined?

Don't those three lose fights, like, all the time?

Offhand, Dracula beat Death, who knows how many people have defeated Galactus, and I'm pretty sure one of the members of the GLA beat Eternity at one point (though, I may be misremembering).

averagejoe

2007-06-13, 03:46 PM

These are places in the Star Wars universe, which should in theory give the Jedi an advantage. Obviously, they don't. Just saying "Drown him using TK!" is about as silly as just relying on adamantium rooms. Neither is a guarenteed situation, and is only a partial answer to the question.

Fine, don't drown him, hold him in the air then TK large amounts of sand/dust/dibirs around his head and down his mouth and nose. It comes to the same thing.

Those percentages seem pretty arbitrary.

Blue Paladin

2007-06-13, 03:47 PM

The wolverine fanbois don't have any, when it comes to TK.

I originally suggested the Jedi could just pick Wolverine up with the force (a la Yoda + X-wing) and drown him in a nearby handy pool of water until he was unconscious or dead....

The wolverine fanboys immediately moved the fight venue to a featureless adamantium room, thus conceding the point.

As much as I like his character, Wolverine has no defense against TK.

He loses. It's over. Ring the bell already.Man, we should totally switch here. I actively hate Wolverine, but I find I'm arguing his side.

Here's the problem with the TK argument: There's absolutely no evidence it would work. In fact, there must be limitations. Otherwise, why is Luke forced to chase after Biker Scouts if he could reach out and grab them off their speeder bikes? Why does he fight in melee with his saber instead of TK-clearing off the skiff of Jabba's minions? Let alone the sail barge itself.

Speculation: it's difficult to hit a moving target with this ability? Counter: Force Push is used against battle droids. Riposte: Force Push serves, at best, to buy time. It is not a precision attack, and its power is low-impact.

Jedi demonstrations of TK are limited to: levitation (e.g. Yoda/X-Wing; Luke/C-3PO on Endor), Force Choke (e.g. Vader, all the time), Force Push (e.g. Obi-Wan above Naboo).

Levitation: look at the preparation and even the execution of this basic move. It takes all of Yoda/Luke's concentration (to the point of closing their eyes) to even grab their respective TK loads, which I'll point out are static, unmoving objects.

Force Choke is never used in full combat, only as abject lesson, on an unmoving target. Padme, Motti, Ozzel, Needa. I'll even concede Jabba's Gamorrean Guards in this list from EpVI (even though it goes against my memory, I did check the novelization). Choke is more precise than Push, but far lower power than either Levitation or Push. I mean, Vader doesn't even snap necks, he just cuts off air. "Grab the handle, push the button."

Force Push is the one that's used in combat. No real concentration requirement noted, and its power is diluted by the large area of effect. It can shove over battle droids (who are none too steady on their feet anyway, ref. scenes with Jar Jar stumbling around in EpI end battle). Yoda (with the most prodigious Force powers short of pre-Mustafar Anakin) was able to sustain a pin on a slight, rather frail old man for a brief instant. "Size matters not" arguments aside, that's not going to hold for long.

The adamantium room was brought up by tgva8889 (who I think is a Jedi supporter, and hardly a Wolverine fanboi), and was supposed to address the need of the Jedi to have water nearby. Supposing Wolverine has grappled target (non-Kit Fisto, non-Clighal) Jedi and holds him underwater. That's not a victory for Wolverine; it's a victory for drowning. It's a non-issue.

ravenkith

2007-06-13, 04:13 PM

Sorry, but wolverine has been shown to be stoppable by tk.

In movies, in comic books, basically, if wolverine can't touch you, he can't do anything.

If you've got a way to keep him from reaching you, he's right out of luck.

Yes, a Jedi has to concentrate to use TK. But this is not a problem when you are only fighting one opponent who has no ranged/force capabilities.

Any material can be used to suffocate an individual, up to and including preventing air from entering the victims lungs telikinetically, or simply holding their mouth and nose shut.

But really, the point is that the Jedi would only have to hold wolverine still for a few seconds in order to get a clean strike at Wolverines neck, thus severing the ligaments and spinal cord in the spine that allow Wolverine to move at all.

He wouldn't even have to kill wolverine, simply incapacitate him.

Please note that Yoda gives up on the pin because Palpatine tries to zap him with lightning and the little green guy has to defend himself...not because he can't keep ol' pally stuck to the wall like a staticky ballon.

Wolverine has no chance at victory here, just as the Jedi has no chance against the Phoenix Force.

Shadowcat vs. Jedi? tough call.....

I think Shadowcat gets the win: she can phase through the lightsaaber, disabling it, and ignore the effects of most force powers completely, until she gets close enough to punch the Jedi's lights out.

GiantMonkeyMan

2007-06-13, 06:00 PM

I think the current argument boils down to (at least) three points. For two of these points, I believe those arguing the side of Wolverine are more or less in the right and for the last those arguing for the Jedi have got it.

#1) I've said it once and I (apparently) have to say it again. You can't cut off Wolverine's head. Why? Because you can't access all of the relevant ligaments nessecary to cut it off without passing through bone. Period. Yes, you can pop his head off.** No you can't cut it off. If you don't believe me, go look up the relevant Anatomy. Gray's Anatomy is available for free all over the internet. Bits and pieces of Netter's Anatomy is as well. Go look it up. And please stop arguing the point. You. Are. Just. Wrong.

#2) Re: Adamantium vs. a Light Saber. Any answer to this question must include some uncertainty because it deals with fantasy elements that don't cross genre. However, within it's own Universe, Adamantium is the toughest stuff around, nothing can damage it. It's the gold standard, if you will. The Light Saber, on the other hand, is overcome by a variety of elements within its Universe (Cortosis, Phrik, etc. etc.). This would imply, though not with certainty, that Adamantium enjoys a resilence in its Universe that is greater than the destructiveness that the Light Saber enjoys its. If you want to argue that Adamantium's resilence has never been proven in the Star Wars Universe, I would agree. But, to consider that a reasonable argument, one would have to believe that one's default position is to assume that Light Sabers are capable of damaging a substance it has never interacted with. I don't consider that a reasonable default position. My presumption would be that one begins agnostic on the issue of Adamantium vs. Light Saber and then is swayed in one direction or the other by factually supported arguments. In closing, for my purposes, Adamantium is clearly the winner in that particular battle as no one has provided a positive argument in favor of the Light Saber and the positive argument in favor of Adamantium seems pretty compelling.

#3) Force TK. If Force TK can be used arbitrarily and for arbitrary durations, then yes, I would agree that Wolverine is screwed. (Since you can just TK pop his head off and send it bleeding off into the sunset.) Is this really the case? Can someone give a specific example of a specific Jedi Master holding an opponent indefinitely and/or popping off said opponent's head. Can the person who provides this example provide a (preferably web based) citation so the rest of us who aren't familiar with the instance can evaluate the power in context. Also, can anyone provide instances that show the upper bound of the effectiveness of said Jedi Master's TK power. At that point, _when_we_have_specifics_ those of us who are somewhat ignorant of the Star Wars Universe would be better able to evaluate the arguments made by those more familiar with the Star Wars Universe.

By the way, all of this ad hominem fanboi talk is just tiresome. None of us have anything of value to lose here. Saying someone's argument is wrong because of their prejudices isn't an argument worth making (or listening to). Providing evidence and then explaining your interpretation of it is. Why don't we just argue in good faith with all the evidence provided fairly and in context? Seems like more fun to me.

Selrahc

2007-06-13, 06:19 PM

TK people are making too much of it. Jedi can't hover someone unrpotected while they slice their windpipe. They can't crush internal organs.

IT can be used for keeping people at a distance. For pulling them close. If their was an environement, there could be lots of other aspects.

It isn't an instant win, although it is very handy.

(Seriously, if JEdis could instantly crush their opponents internal organs, or hold them in place while they killed them, then why did Mace Windu react to Jango Fett the way that he did? It just wouldn't make any sense)

Blue Paladin

2007-06-13, 06:23 PM

Yes, a Jedi has to concentrate to use TK. But this is not a problem when you are only fighting one opponent who has no ranged/force capabilities.I'm going to call this one. General Grievous vs Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's power with the Force is not at Anakin's level (or even Yoda's), but his skill with it is enough to close the gap between the two. And yet he can't TK hold Grievous still for two seconds to close and stab?

Any material can be used to suffocate an individual, up to and including preventing air from entering the victims lungs telikinetically, or simply holding their mouth and nose shut.Which is exactly what Force Choke does; it holds the windpipe shut. Now in every instance of Force Choke, the target has to be in sight. And even with his air supply cut off, I'm not going to write off the Canucklehead as being unable to get to the Choker in time (especially since I can hold my breath for over a minute, do vigorous exercise for a little less than half that... and I'm not even a sporty kind of guy).

Which is why no one uses Force Choke in a fight.

The way to make this a win condition is have the Force Choker far away and able to see Logan via video camera or something. Then Wolverine doesn't have a chance.

Please note that Yoda gives up on the pin because Palpatine tries to zap him with lightning and the little green guy has to defend himself...not because he can't keep ol' pally stuck to the wall like a staticky ballon.I also note that to zap at Yoda, Palpatine was moving his hands around. It's not a Hold Person level of helpless here. Even if the Force user is pumping enough power through his Force Push to keep Wolvie pinned, the Canucklehead can still parry when the saber swing comes.

I wonder why it is that all the Star Wars supporters are afraid to let their Jedi face off with the X-Man in straight combat? They fall back on Force Lightning, Choke, Push, Drown (not an official power)... C'mon guys. He's just a mutant. Jedi train their combat skills for years. I'll start:

Kit Fisto: The master of Shii-Cho is unfortunately still bound by the limits of the style itself. The relatively simple maneuvers are basic kendo, which Wolverine can beat blindfolded (ref. Ogun, Silver Samurai). Wolverine wins easily.

Count Dooku: Well there's no Jedi master of Makashi, so he'll have to do. Here's a case where I can freely advocate using other powers (Force Lightning, Force Throwing **** Around), because Dooku actually does so as a major attack form. But for the melee part, this would be a good match Wolverine were forced to use a sword; Dooku can lead a sword-fighting opponent around by the nose. Unfortunately, Wolverine is not constrained by normal sword combat forms (or even normal melee "requirements" like say not getting yourself stabbed while you stab your opponent), and Dooku's expertise is largely nullified. With Dooku's age also working against him, Wolverine wins the melee, and it's a grand grand fight.

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Strong in the Force and twice as skilled. He is the undisputed master of Soresu, and his defense is impenetrable. Wolverine can't win against him. However, I don't think Obi-Wan can win against Wolverine either. The limited offense of Soresu hits the openings in Logan's defense over and over, but he just heals each time. Draw (unless we're talking ANH Obi-Wan, in which case age is the deciding factor again).

Yoda: previous champion of the light side. That means a whole torrent of Force power, and the 800 years of Jedihood translates to a metric ton of Force skill. His mastery of Ataru makes up for his lack of reach and stature. Wolverine can't lay a hand on him, but if Yoda can't get that finishing strike in the first exchange or two, his age will catch up to him. Stamina is Yoda's weak point, and if he slows down at all, Logan has his chance. Still, I say Yoda wins this one handily.

Anakin Skywalker: This isn't even fair... By the time he's mastered Shien and Djem-So, he draws more Force power than Yoda by far. The offensive nature of the combat style is a good match for Wolverine, but Anakin's Force power tips the scale like a ton of bricks. The other option for Form V, Darth Vader, loses Force power and gains ruthlessness. It's all bad news for our hairy Canadian friend.

???: I don't think there's any master of Form VI of note. Coleman who? In any event, the balanced Niman style is not the way to go against Wolverine. He'll shrug off the "adequate" offense, overwhelm the "adequate" defense, and ignore the diplomat's pleas of, "Can't we all just get along?" Wolverine wins, no question.

Mace Windu: Close to Yoda in skill and power both. His Vaapad style is perfect against Wolverine; Wolvie's berserker rage serves as a near-boundless fountain of energy for Mace to tap and use. But more important than the raw energy and violence of his combat Form is his unique Forcesight: he can see Logan's shatterpoint(s). Against that power and that kind of precision targeting, Wolverine has no chance.

So there; a breakdown of the posterboys for each of the seven Jedi forms vs Wolverine. 3 wins, 3 losses, 1 draw. Closer than I thought actually...

GoC

2007-06-13, 08:59 PM

In the media in general characters in the movies are weaker than those in books/comics/cartoons/anime.

jedi vs. wolverine

movie vs. movie: Tied. Depends on the jedi master (most would lose) and situation. Yoda's edge in speed and maneuveraiblity would win I think

movie vs. comic: definitely wolverine with his super regen

cartoon/printed: vs. movie Are you kidding?

cartoon vs. comic:
The jedi masters due to their INSANE speed (can Wolverine average 20 blocks&dodges per second from every angle? the jedi can)
flight -Wolverine doesn't have any ranged attacks
precog -with the speed required to use it
TK -literaly moving small mountains:smallconfused:. Wolvy doesn't have a way to resist this and yes it is usable in this fight because a jedi can run at over 200m/s to get away and use it from range. ref: two female jedi vs. attacking bots and falling rocks.
Fav ref: Windu vs droids

printed vs. comic: The Jedi due to their huge list of powers all with plot dependent strength (reminds me of silver sups)

Note:In these arguments when two references show differing levels of power I go with the higher one.

Wojiz

2007-06-13, 09:19 PM

Seeing as apparently the only Jedi we're going for are movie Jedi, this isn't really an argument anymore. I mean, Wolverine in the comics is basically unkillable to a laughably ridiculous and unexplained degree for the sheer sake of the "OMG THAT WAS COOL" effect.

Viscount Einstrauss

2007-06-13, 09:31 PM

I think GoC sums it up nicely. I was refferencing, this whole way through, the printed material of Star Wars since the Wolverine sympathizers weren't limiting Wolverine to his movie appearances.

ravenkith

2007-06-14, 08:10 AM

Telekinesis beats sharp pointy things coming out of your hand, any day of the week.

As to why it isn't used a whole lot for pinning people in place during battles: it takes a fair degree of concentration, and would leave the Jedi using it vulnerable to counter attack from another direction.

Which is why Mace reacts to Jango the way he does: he can't afford to leave himself open to the thousand or so other enemies he has present in that arena.

As to how the emperor can move: he's the living emodiment of the dark side at that point, and more powerful than yoda, with his own telekinetic abilities to help him over come the invisible force keeping him in place.

Note: wolverine has no tk abilities to help him move.

Even if he could still move his arms, he doesn't have reach on someone wileding a lightsaber.

As to why I keep going back to force powers: specifically TK, it's the one thing that Jedi's unequivocally have that wolverine unequivocally does not, and provides a significant combat advantage.

SKarious

2007-06-14, 11:11 AM

Oh boy. I can see where this thread is going.
Can't we stop it now people?
Like Wolverine without his adamantium skeleton, this thing could grow uncontrolled, until nothing short of the hand of a Mod can destroy it.

Just a Q: Did wolverine, in any incarnation, fight and defeat a "pre-cog" in single combat?
If so, can you give details?

Blue Paladin

2007-06-14, 12:15 PM

I think GoC sums it up nicely. I was refferencing, this whole way through, the printed material of Star Wars since the Wolverine sympathizers weren't limiting Wolverine to his movie appearances.The difference is that for SW, the movies are the canon material. And canon for Wolverine is the comics (the 616 version, specifically). If you're allowing out-of-canon EU for the Jedi, you're going to have to allow out-of-canon material for Wolverine as well. Given the long and varied history of Marvel's What If? series, I don't know think this is an argument you want to pursue.

Telekinesis beats sharp pointy things coming out of your hand, any day of the week.Only when you can actually use it.

As to why it isn't used a whole lot for pinning people in place during battles: it takes a fair degree of concentration, and would leave the Jedi using it vulnerable to counter attack from another direction.It leaves the Jedi vulnerable to counterattack from any direction. Take a look at your own examples: Yoda (Ep II, Ep III, Ep V). He closes his eyes; it takes all of his concentration. And this is Yoda. Luke (Ep V) in training, and again on Endor (Ep VI). Here's a new one: Vader (Ep V) breaks off his saber attacks and is away from Luke when he starts to grab stuff to throw. Now why couldn't he just reach out and grab Luke directly instead?

Which is why Mace reacts to Jango the way he does: he can't afford to leave himself open to the thousand or so other enemies he has present in that arena.No, Mace reacts to Jango that way because his Forcesight showed him Jango's shatterpoint at that instant in time; if Mace missed it, he might never have another chance to neutralize Fett. So when he has to use his best moves, what does he use? Vaapad. Not Force Choke, not Force Lightning, not Force anything... Just a good old lightsaber.

As to how the emperor can move: he's the living emodiment of the dark side at that point, and more powerful than yoda, with his own telekinetic abilities to help him over come the invisible force keeping him in place.Using his what to do what now? Palpatine doesn't need to use anything as weak as TK. Why should he? Yoda's blowing a ton of Force power on a super-enhanced Force Push. What a waste! Palpatine's a Form VII kind of guy (he did train Darth Maul, you know). Why block when you can attack? Have some lightning instead. He uses the Force for misdirection and attack, never defense.

Even if he could still move his arms, [Wolverine] doesn't have reach on someone [wielding] a lightsaber.Reach is irrelevant when defending against a weapon coming to you. All Wolvie has to do is defend until the Force user gets tired. And they do you know. Even the most powerful, the most skilled Force users can't channel the Force endlessly.

As to why I keep going back to force powers: specifically TK, it's the one thing that [Jedi] unequivocally have that wolverine unequivocally does not, and provides a significant combat advantage.And you also keep skipping over the healing factor that Wolverine has unequivocally, that Jedi do not. Sure they have a healing trance, but that's not exactly something you want to enter while in combat.

Between the healing and his skeleton, Wolverine naturally counters all of the main combat aims of lightsaber forms without him even doing anything. Minor wounds to dissuade combat, disarm to prevent combat, dismember to preclude combat, and even certain killing strikes to end combat. Shiim (Dooku vs Obi-Wan, EpII) heal to no effect. Sun djem (Luke vs Boba, Ep VI) is impossible with those claws. Cho sun (Obi-Wan in Mos Eisley, Ep IV), cho mai (Vader vs Luke, Ep V), cho mak (Obi-Wan vs Vader, Ep III) are similarly impossible. Sai cha (Mace vs Jango, Ep II) and sai tok (Obi-Wan vs Maul, Ep I) aren't getting very far.

So I totally understand why you feel Jedi in general are outclassed, and need to rely on their other Force powers. But seriously, the best saber artists can win in a straight up fight: Mace, Yoda, Anakin. Obi-Wan, as good as he is (and he really is the best there is at what he does: Soresu), doesn't have the oomph on offense. But he can't lose either; his defense is just that good.

Just a Q: Did wolverine, in any incarnation, fight and defeat a "pre-cog" in single combat?
If so, can you give details?Do you count fighting telepaths who read his mind to see what his next attack will be? If so, then yes. His body has been trained to the point of moving in combat without needing conscious thought to control. Once Wolvie figures out his opponent is dodging by reading his mind, he thinks of an action and lets his body do something else instead. As shown in a relatively recent Astonishing X-Men, Wolverine's thoughts during combat with a Godzilla-style monster: Panel 1: nothing. Panel 2: nothing. Panel 3: "I like beer."

However, Jedi have a much more intimate connection with the future than a simple mindscan. I don't think this applies. What has been shown is a Jedi with the deepest connection to the Living Force as anyone in Jedi history (Qui-Gon Jinn), someone who lived more in the moment than any other Jedi, being overwhelmed by an offense-oriented dervish to whom violence is second nature if not first (Darth Maul). Make of that what you will.

Tyrant

2007-06-14, 05:40 PM

The various books (Darth Bane's book does, off the top of my head) explain why these various force powers aren't the best means of offense against other force users. One of the first things they learn, is how to resist other force powers. They learn how to use their own powers to prevent someone from just TK slamming them into a wall. Wolverine has no such ability. Against non force users, their TK is quite a bit more useful. How is Wolverine going to stop being held in place with TK? He can do nothing against that. Once still, apply force choke. Then begin using TK to start pulling him into pieces. Specifically, ripping his head off. No need to cut it off when it can be pulled out. Then stick a lightsaber into his brain and leave it there until your outdoors and can chuck his head into the nearest star with TK. Luke has used the force to manuver a ship into a gas giant, throwing a head into a sun (or black hole) shouldn't be very difficult. All you have to do is watch the first X Men movie to see how effective Wolverine is against someone who can hold him still.

As to those doubting the limits of the TK abilities, how can you? The force has been used to move planets, pilots ships through black hole clusters, consume the life force of a whole planet, and yet people think crushing internal organs is beyond the ability of the force? Move a planet, no problem. Hold a midget with a heavy skeleton in midair, impossible. What is wrong with this picture?

As for reflexes and precog, how is Wolverine even a contender? The Jedi can run at extreme speed (episode 1). They can react fast enough to deal with blaster bolts from dozens of droids. Wolverine may have super human reflexes, but not everyone with superhuman reflexes moves at the same speed do they? It's not a single power level. The Jedi can move much faster. With precog, they will see everything he will do. Or at least, the force will guide their actions to avoid fatal strikes while being able to know exactly where to hit him.

Adamantium can be destroyed. Havok has burned his way through an adamantium door in Mutant X. This was a blast door, so it would have been a lot thicker than the thin coating on Wolverine's skeleton. Cyclops blasted off Wolverine's hand in AoA. He either destroyed the adamantium, or his blast shattered the joint in the wrist as it wouldn't be adamantium. If the latter is the way it happened, then I believe a lightsaber would have no problem slicing apart various joints on Wolverine. Sure his flesh would regenerate, but he wouldn't have the adamantium anymore.

There are many Marvel characters that could take the Jedi. I don't believe the midget is one of them.