Dual-Wielding Shields?

[Lord Lemming]

Quick question: If I'm playing the Shield Champion archetype for the Brawler class, my main weapon is a shield. But are there any rules governing using two shields at once? Could I, for instance, carry a buckler in the other hand just for the additional AC? If I can, how does that interact with feats like Shield Focus, that increase the armor value for shields I carry? In short, can I exploit dual-shielding to boost my AC to stratospheric levels without sacrificing combat ability; and how do I maximize this benefit?

[Tuvarkz]

Shield bonuses don't stack. There is a Kobold Press feat that allows them to do so, though.

[Bucky]

Quick question: If I'm playing the Shield Champion archetype for the Brawler class, my main weapon is a shield. But are there any rules governing using two shields at once?

Yes, you can bash with one shield and still have the AC bonus from the other.

[Psyren]

You can, but the shield bonuses won't stack. The main reason to do this is Shield Mastery which removes your TWF penalties, letting you attack at +0/+0 instead of -4/-4.


Yes, you can bash with one shield and still have the AC bonus from the other.

Improved Shield Bash lets you keep the bonus while bashing in any case.

[noob]

In 3.5 it was also useful for not having other pieces of the equipment broken by critically failed reflex saves.

[Segev]

And don't forget your +5 Defensive Shield Spikes!

[Florian]

On paper, dual-wielding shields make sense, especially for the fighter. That could be made to work for the Brawler, to a certain extend, but in both cases, on paper and cheese are closely related, so don't expect to find a gm that greenlights it.

[Bucky]

Dual wielding shields also makes a bit of sense for a Brawler because spiked shields are Close weapons, and there aren't very many Close weapons with the same level of utility as a spiked throwing shield.


I've made a dual shield wielder before, but the motivation was Path of War material. The Snapping Turtle Stance made up for the shields' poor damage dice, and being a Close weapon let them also deliver Broken Blade maneuvers like Flurry Strike (Pounce lite for level 1 characters).

[The Random NPC]

You can, but the shield bonuses won't stack. The main reason to do this is Shield Mastery which removes your TWF penalties, letting you attack at +0/+0 instead of -4/-4.



Improved Shield Bash lets you keep the bonus while bashing in any case.

It's Shield Master, no y. Also, though they likely only intended to remove the Two-weapon Fighting penalties, it actually removes all penalties to attack.
EDIT: Turns out, that was FAQ'd away.

[CharonsHelper]

You don't get the AC bonus from both - but you can enchant them separately. One can be enchanted for straight bonuses - the other for Fortification etc.

[Lord Lemming]

I posted this before I went to school in the morning, and completely forgot about it until just now. :smallredface:

Thanks for the tips; good to know that Captain America wouldn't really be that much better off if he had a second shield.

[manyslayer]

Since no one else has linked Person Man's excellent guide:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?123630-3-X-Person-Man-s-Guide-to-Shields

[upho]

On paper, dual-wielding shields make sense, especially for the fighter.I'd say it makes a lot more sense for the Shield Champion brawler, as the archetype can enable mechanical combos with twin shields the poor fighter and other classes can only dream of pulling off.


That could be made to work for the Brawler, to a certain extend, but in both cases, on paper and cheese are closely related, so don't expect to find a gm that greenlights it.Why not? I'm a DM and I certainly wouldn't houserule against it. It's different in flavor (a good thing IMO) and, perhaps more importantly, can actually turn a non-caster PC into a versatile switch-hit controller. It opens for highly unique and fun tactical combos, based for example on the Shield Champion brawler's 7th level "ranged combat maneuver as if melee" and the awesome Maelstrom Shield with it's free frip. This can even allow for a Paizo-only martial build that doesn't have to focus on damage in order to be highly effective during several levels, which is otherwise virtually impossible without 3rd party stuff. (Though you could certainly make a good and unusually flexible damage-focused dual-wielding Shield Champion build as well, considering the huge base weapon damage die size the brawler and the cheap bashing magic ability can give the shields).

And if it matters, dual-wielding shields is even a RL thing, and there is at least one known martial art style/technique developed specifically for it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9uILn0iCUs). But throwing shields are on the other hand nothing but fantasy "cheese" AFAIK, at least if we're talking about anything larger than perhaps a very small buckler...


Thanks for the tips; good to know that Captain America wouldn't really be that much better off if he had a second shield.Oh, but Captain Andoran certainly would, and he's way cooler! :smalltongue: Not for increasing his AC though, but for being able to attack (and trip/move/bull rush/scare/AoO) more enemies per turn. Here's some inspiration and tips on build combos! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454387-Wolf-Trip-Shield-Champion-Intimidation-Martial-Control-of-Gravitas)

[Captain Morgan]

I've always thought of the Shield Champion as less likely to dual wield two shields because Brawler's Flurry doesn't require two separate weapons to be used, so you can get Shield Champion's full TWF'ing full attack without penalty, where a normal TWF build would benefit from it.

I assume the benefits come down to range shield throwing somehow? We always treated the shield bouncing shenanigans as compatible with Flurry, so a second shield wouldn't do much. That might not be RAW though.

[The Random NPC]

(Though you could certainly make a good and unusually flexible damage-focused dual-wielding Shield Champion build as well, considering the huge base weapon damage die size the brawler and the cheap bashing magic ability can give the shields).

You actually don't want Bashing, as all that does is delay when your damage increases. Or more accurately, you may want it before 12th level but not after. Also, at 5th and 8th level, a regular shield would be doing 1d8 and 1d10 damage. You'll still want a spiked shield, but that's to double up on enchantments.

[upho]

I've always thought of the Shield Champion as less likely to dual wield two shields because Brawler's Flurry doesn't require two separate weapons to be used, so you can get Shield Champion's full TWF'ing full attack without penalty, where a normal TWF build would benefit from it. I assume the benefits come down to range shield throwing somehow? Brawler's Flurry doesn't require two separate weapons, but neither does it remove TWF attack penalties. Shield Master does remove the penalties from shield attacks (only), but also requires you to wield "another weapon". Hence in order to Flurry without any penalties, you need to attack with two shields (or more).


We always treated the shield bouncing shenanigans as compatible with Flurry, so a second shield wouldn't do much. That might not be RAW though.I'm not sure, but IIRC the bouncing is compatible with Flurry by courtesy of being a full attack. But bouncing with a single shield is pretty horrible when fighting in larger areas against spread out enemies, not to mention that it's impossible to combine with shield AoOs triggered during your full attack (which for example a thrown Maelstrom + Greater Trip + Wolf Trip can generate).


You actually don't want Bashing, as all that does is delay when your damage increases. Or more accurately, you may want it before 12th level but not after. Also, at 5th and 8th level, a regular shield would be doing 1d8 and 1d10 damage.? The base damage of a medium bashing heavy shield is not 1d8, it's 1d4, as listed in the weapons table. Otherwise, a brawler would for example be able to use strong jaw to increase the damage of close weapons, and a tiefling with oversized limbs arguably wouldn't benefit from being able to wield large weapons when using the feature. From Close Weapon Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler#TOC-Close-Weapon-Mastery-Ex-):
This ability does not affect any other aspect of the weapon.So RAW (unless there's been a very recent errata), a close weapon used with Close Weapon Mastery is still a weapon of it's type, and any and all properties and magic abilities normally applicable to it still applies. Basically as if the base damage listed in the weapons table had the addendum "or the unarmed strike damage listed for a brawler of your level -4". Meaning Close Weapon Mastery and bashing stacks, since one replaces the 1d3/1d4/1d6 (medium) shield base damage and the other is a magic effect increasing the damage die size of shield bash attacks.


You'll still want a spiked shield, but that's to double up on enchantments.Light and heavy shields are weapons and can have magic weapon enhancements, regardless of whether they're spiked or not. See for example
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon... (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor)and
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-heavy-wooden-or-steel)

[The Random NPC]

? The base damage of a medium bashing heavy shield is not 1d8, it's 1d4, as listed in the weapons table. Otherwise, a brawler would for example be able to use strong jaw to increase the damage of close weapons, and a tiefling with oversized limbs arguably wouldn't benefit from being able to wield large weapons when using the feature. From Close Weapon Mastery (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/brawler#TOC-Close-Weapon-Mastery-Ex-):So RAW (unless there's been a very recent errata), a close weapon used with Close Weapon Mastery is still a weapon of it's type, and any and all properties and magic abilities normally applicable to it still applies. Basically as if the base damage listed in the weapons table had the addendum "or the unarmed strike damage listed for a brawler of your level -4". Meaning Close Weapon Mastery and bashing stacks, since one replaces the 1d3/1d4/1d6 (medium) shield base damage and the other is a magic effect increasing the damage die size of shield bash attacks.

I've always seen it ruled that Bashing increases the base weapon damage, and therefore would just delay when Close Weapon Mastery kicked in. As for the 1d8 and 1d10, that was referring to what your Close Weapon Mastery damage would be if it applied.


Light and heavy shields are weapons and can have magic weapon enhancements, regardless of whether they're spiked or not. See for exampleand

Right, but unless I'm mistaken, you can enchant the Spiked part of a shield separately from the shield part. That would let you have up to +18 worth of special abilities.

[upho]

I've always seen it ruled that Bashing increases the base weapon damage, and therefore would just delay when Close Weapon Mastery kicked in.That wouldn't change anything, as the base damage of a "CWM shield" equals "UAS base damage of brawler level -4", instead of the 1d3/1d4/1d6 base damage of a "non-CWM shield". The whole "does not affect any other aspect" of CWM means bashing then simply increases whichever base damage that is used, regardless of whether that base damage has been replaced by UAS base damage or not. Same goes for impact weapons, the lead blades spell and actual weapon size increases btw, all of which would increase the damage die size regardless of whether the weapon was used with CWM or not, as all would be "other aspect of the weapon". (If such increases of weapon damage actually were base damage replacements, then so would strong jaw be, thus increasing the UAS base damage replacing the original close weapon base damage.)
As for the 1d8 and 1d10, that was referring to what your Close Weapon Mastery damage would be if it applied.I understood that, but I can see my reply was a bit confusing, sorry. The "base damage of a a medium bashing heavy shield is not 1d8, it's 1d4" part was referring to bashing not being a replacement of the shield's fixed base damage like CWM, but instead a damage increase dependent on whatever the shield's base damage is.


Right, but unless I'm mistaken, you can enchant the Spiked part of a shield separately from the shield part. That would let you have up to +18 worth of special abilities.Nope, a spiked shield is enchanted as one weapon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/shield-spikes), just like a regular shield.