Psionics Pitfalls

[Stuvius]

Good Day Playground,

My gaming group is preparing to begin a new campaign in January. We are having a session zero to roll up characters and discuss some of the new materials we have agreed to include. We have added the ‘complete’ series of books as well as the magic item compendium. I have read many forum threads regarding psionics and as one of the complete books covers this I thought I would bring my question here. As a newer DM who has not had psionics in my games previously; any tips for gameplay or warnings for things to avoid? As always, thank for the help!

[Flickerdart]

The #1 most important rule of psionics is you cannot spend more PP on a power than your ML. People who are new to psionics forget this and then get freaked out when the psion dumps all his PP into one death laser nova. Psionic powers also don't usually scale with manifester level aside from duration, meaning that psionicists need to augment their powers to get what a sorcerer or wizard gets for free.

You shouldn't use Complete Psionic without Expanded Psionics Handbook, since the latter has a lot of important rules for psionic characters and a lion's share of the powers they get access to. The ExPH also has the psion and psychic warrior classes, two of the best-balanced psionic classes. CPsi just has ardent (divine mind is trash and lurk is mediocre).

If you need more psionic content for free, WotC has the Mind's Eye articles in their 3.5 article archive with cool classes, powers, and even mini subsystems. Just beware of 3.0 material - 3.0 psionics were very different and kind of awful.

[Red Fel]

Good Day Playground,

My gaming group is preparing to begin a new campaign in January. We are having a session zero to roll up characters and discuss some of the new materials we have agreed to include. We have added the ‘complete’ series of books as well as the magic item compendium. I have read many forum threads regarding psionics and as one of the complete books covers this I thought I would bring my question here. As a newer DM who has not had psionics in my games previously; any tips for gameplay or warnings for things to avoid? As always, thank for the help!

First, read the book. Then, read it again. Whenever dealing with a new mechanic, the most important thing is familiarity; you don't have to memorize it, but you should be able to refer to relevant sections quickly. Using tabs in your book is recommended.

Second, remember the golden rule of manifesting: You cannot spend more PP manifesting a power than your Manifester Level. You can augment most powers beyond their initial function, but the total PP spend cannot exceed your ML. This is a rule frequently overlooked by DMs unfamiliar with the material, and it can lead to Psions feeling overpowered when they blow most or all of their PP in a single attack.

Third, the magic-psionics transparency. The default rule is that magic and psionics are treated the same. SR = PR, antimagic zones are also antipsionic, and so forth. This is a good rule, and you should use it. If you start treating psionics differently, things become a bit insane and a bit redundant.

Beyond that, it's just rules-as-written, for the most part. The classes explain their class features, and the powers - like spells - are generally self-contained. Don't worry about the fact that a power can be augmented; this is the counterpart to the fact that most spells scale automatically.

[Flickerdart]

Third, the magic-psionics transparency. The default rule is that magic and psionics are treated the same. SR = PR, antimagic zones are also antipsionic, and so forth. This is a good rule, and you should use it. If you start treating psionics differently, things become a bit insane and a bit redundant.
It's not really "and so forth." Transparency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicTransparenc y) is actually very limited:


Spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.
Spell resistance is effective against powers and vice-versa.
Magic dispels are effective against psionics, and vice-versa.
Detect magic works on psionics, but you still need to use Psicraft instead of Spellcraft to identify things.
Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.


That's it. Feats that affect magic can't be used with psionics. Psions can't get into casting prestige classes. Knowledge (Psionics), Psicraft and Use Psionic Device are distinct from Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft, and Use Magic Device.

[ElderLucian]

IIRC CPsi also has some unnecessary nerfs as well. I don't have the book on hand to check but I believe it limited Astral Constructs to only having one out at a time which is the big one that comes to mind for me.

[illyahr]

It's been said twice so far but it needs to be said again: You cannot spend more PP on a power than your Manifester Level.

A Bard3/PsiClass3 can only spend 3 PP on any given power, not 6.

[Waazraath]

Good Day Playground,

My gaming group is preparing to begin a new campaign in January. We are having a session zero to roll up characters and discuss some of the new materials we have agreed to include. We have added the ‘complete’ series of books as well as the magic item compendium. I have read many forum threads regarding psionics and as one of the complete books covers this I thought I would bring my question here. As a newer DM who has not had psionics in my games previously; any tips for gameplay or warnings for things to avoid? As always, thank for the help!

Be very carefull with power levels. The divine mind is pretty worthless, while psion is equal in power to a wizard, and much easier to optimize. Even a direct damage psion (kineticist) can break the game at low levels, if it picks a few relevant feats and powers, without trying hard.

[martixy]

Be very carefull with power levels. The divine mind is pretty worthless, while psion is equal in power to a wizard, and much easier to optimize. Even a direct damage psion (kineticist) can break the game at low levels, if it picks a few relevant feats and powers, without trying hard.

Not a wizard, but certainly a sorceror. They simply do not possess versatility on the same level as our beloved scribe-all-da-spells wizard.
So squarely a T2 class.

@OP
But... be aware that a specific speciality of psionics is f***ing with the action economy. This is their "thing", their unique ability. Don't deny them that.
This is of course quite power-point draining, which is the balancing point.
Also be aware that there are "tricks" for restoring or saving power-points(out of combat before level 17, so psions don't get to break the game any earlier than full spellcasters).
Some of these may look OP, but be aware that they require a massive number of character building resources.

It is up to you if you allow them or not, but I see no problem with it, as long that's the build's "shtick". Beware however if they start doing too many things at once - cuz for example the PP restore trick requires 6 feats and a few powers, whose use outside of contributing to this trick is very marginal as compared to other options they could have taken, which leaves very little for... well, anything else really.

[Waazraath]

Not a wizard, but certainly a sorceror. They simply do not possess versatility on the same level as our beloved scribe-all-da-spells wizard.
So squarely a T2 class.


Don't forget, a psion needs only 1, maybe 2 powers to be a direct damage machine; good radius, good damage, psion can choose the energy type and the kind of save. Needs only 1 power to be a good summoner (decent, with the complete psionic nerf). Needs only 1 power to change shape and become a combat monster, get access to lots of abilities. While a wizard (or sorcerer) who wants to blast needs loads of different spells, for different energy types and to taget different saves. Needs several summon monster spells to get the same effect. The customization of powers is way better then that of spells.

The psion has dozens of ways to break the game in half, include like you say lots of ways to break the action economy. He's super versatile. That's solid tier 1 stuff accoriding to the tier system, and it was a tier 1 in that system.

But exactly this discussion show the flaws of this tier system. At low levels (lets say, 3-5) the psion totally overpowers another tier 1 like the cleric (while a tier 4 whirling frenzy power attacking barbarian or a 2 weapon swordsage would be more competitive). A psion (kineticist) with vigor, share pain and energy missile (which means: loads of powers free for customization) blasts better then almost any other build and is a better tank then also almost any other build. With 1 action, it can kill 4 mooks and destroy the BBEG's weapon. It has effectively over 100hp. And it only needs to use 1 or 2 rulebooks. An equally optimized wizard would be something like a focussed conjurer, with abrupt jaunt, and a spell selection from several rulebooks.... and still it would have a hard time to be as effective in the psion's strong area's.

So again for the OP: be careful. Power levels of psionics are all over the place. Using one or two tricks to mess up the action economy is one of psionics cool tricks, and might be cool; allowing use of all of them at the same time is asking for trouble, unless the rest of the party are e.g. an equally optimized druid and wizard.

[Flickerdart]

Don't forget, a psion needs only 1, maybe 2 powers to be a direct damage machine; good radius, good damage, psion can choose the energy type and the kind of save. Needs only 1 power to be a good summoner (decent, with the complete psionic nerf). Needs only 1 power to change shape and become a combat monster, get access to lots of abilities. While a wizard (or sorcerer) who wants to blast needs loads of different spells, for different energy types and to taget different saves. Needs several summon monster spells to get the same effect. The customization of powers is way better then that of spells.
In a battle between astral constructs and summon monsters, the monsters win. SLAs on summons are way better than choosing abilities from a small list. Polymorph is better than metamorphosis, and shapechange is better than greater metamorphosis. Psions are rubbish blasters compared to arcane casters past the wee early levels because they have to jump through hoops just to use their metapsionics a second time.

[ExLibrisMortis]

In a battle between astral constructs and summon monsters, the monsters win. SLAs on summons are way better than choosing abilities from a small list. Polymorph is better than metamorphosis, and shapechange is better than greater metamorphosis. Psions are rubbish blasters compared to arcane casters past the wee early levels because they have to jump through hoops just to use their metapsionics a second time.
Greater metamorphosis is more broken than shapechange, in my opinion. Shapechange is easier to persist, doesn't take a swift action when you change shape, lasts ten times as long if you can't persist it, and generally does everything you need to break the game, but only greater metamorphosis allows you to take the form of a three-headed sirrush, which has 350 ft. blindsight, DR 35/epic, SR 42, and one ability score below 40 (33 charisma). Or, you know, any of the other ridiculous monsters in the Epic Level Handbook :smalltongue:.

In general, I'm agreeing with you about shapechange, but noting that greater metamorphosis can be really stupidly broken. It might be a psionic pitfall, even.

[Atomburster]

Greater metamorphosis is more broken than shapechange, in my opinion. Shapechange is easier to persist, doesn't take a swift action when you change shape, lasts ten times as long if you can't persist it, and generally does everything you need to break the game, but only greater metamorphosis allows you to take the form of a three-headed sirrush, which has 350 ft. blindsight, DR 35/epic, SR 42, and one ability score below 40 (33 charisma). Or, you know, any of the other ridiculous monsters in the Epic Level Handbook :smalltongue:.

In general, I'm agreeing with you about shapechange, but noting that greater metamorphosis can be really stupidly broken. It might be a psionic pitfall, even.

Actually, Greater Metamorphosis caps out at 25 HD, so you can't actually do that.

Also, it has a 200 EXP cost (As opposed to the 1500 GP foci for Shapechange), so players who are allergic to EXP costs aren't going to abuse it as much.

Well, unless they have EXP-abuse loop cheese things, but that's a different matter altogether.

[Crake]

Polymorph is better than metamorphosis

Metamorphosis and polymorph are practically identical aren't they? Plus Metamorphosis is easier to combine with Metamorphic transfer too. What exactly makes you say this? What does polymorph offer that metamorphosis doesn't? On the flip side, metamorphosis allows you to turn into an object in addition to different creatures, so it has that added utility on top.

The only thing I can see is that metamorphosis is an egoist exclusive ability, but all that means is a feat at level 9 for a non-egoist. Hell, metamorphosis is even one of the few psionic powers that scales exclusively on ML without the need to augment.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Actually, Greater Metamorphosis caps out at 25 HD, so you can't actually do that.

Also, it has a 200 EXP cost (As opposed to the 1500 GP foci for Shapechange), so players who are allergic to EXP costs aren't going to abuse it as much.

Well, unless they have EXP-abuse loop cheese things, but that's a different matter altogether.
Ah, found the errata... that is annoying. Shame about that, really.

[Flickerdart]

Metamorphosis and polymorph are practically identical aren't they? Plus Metamorphosis is easier to combine with Metamorphic transfer too. What exactly makes you say this? What does polymorph offer that metamorphosis doesn't? On the flip side, metamorphosis allows you to turn into an object in addition to different creatures, so it has that added utility on top.

The only thing I can see is that metamorphosis is an egoist exclusive ability, but all that means is a feat at level 9 for a non-egoist. Hell, metamorphosis is even one of the few psionic powers that scales exclusively on ML without the need to augment.

Metamorphosis turns you into a hydra. polymorph turns your entire party into hydras.

[Rubik]

Polymorph doesn't work like people think it does. Look at the size restrictions on Alter Self. Note that this is not changed on Polymorph. So unless your entire party is Large sized, they cannot be turned into hydras.

[Flickerdart]

Polymorph doesn't work like people think it does. Look at the size restrictions on Alter Self. Note that this is not changed on Polymorph. So unless your entire party is Large sized, they cannot be turned into hydras.
Enlarge person?

[Rubik]

Enlarge person?That'd work. But would it carry over so the party is now full of Gargantuan hydras?

[Crake]

Metamorphosis turns you into a hydra. polymorph turns your entire party into hydras.

Ahhh, I see, metamorphosis is personal. That one evaded me, though I suppose it makes sense.

[erok0809]

That'd work. But would it carry over so the party is now full of Gargantuan hydras?

I'm no expert, but wouldn't the fact that you're no longer Humanoid mean that Enlarge wouldn't work any more, and you'd end up being a regular Large-size hydra? Or does it only check for type on the initial casting?

[Rubik]

I'm no expert, but wouldn't the fact that you're no longer Humanoid mean that Enlarge wouldn't work any more, and you'd end up being a regular Large-size hydra? Or does it only check for type on the initial casting?The latter, generally. It's the same way with templates. Add two templates, the second of which invalidates the first, and the first keeps being relevant because they were applied in a specific order. Othewise, you end up with effects that negate themselves, such as half-dragon or the Awaken spell.

[martixy]

Ahhh, I see, metamorphosis is personal. That one evaded me, though I suppose it makes sense.

That's actually another common theme in Psionics - many of the powers are personal where they would be castable on other people as spells.
But then again some of these examples also lower the level as well, making them available earlier, albeit just for yourself. Mind blank as one example.

But then.... there's also the psychoactive skin that gives you metamorphosis at will - those everyone can use. Pricey for an entire party, but hey... bound to be fun.

[ManicOppressive]

As a general world-building and story-telling tip, try to insert Psionics in different situations from magic as well. Psion NPCs being Wizards by another name is boring. Don't forget about the thematic differences between Psionics and Magic--Magic comes from dusty tomes or ancient blood. Psionics come from thinking really, really hard. With Magic, you can talk at someone til they die. With Psionics, you can hate someone to death.

[Rubik]

As a general world-building and story-telling tip, try to insert Psionics in different situations from magic as well. Psion NPCs being Wizards by another name is boring. Don't forget about the thematic differences between Psionics and Magic--Magic comes from dusty tomes or ancient blood. Psionics come from thinking really, really hard. With Magic, you can talk at someone til they die. With Psionics, you can hate someone to death.Psionics tends to be really easy to refluff in a lot of different ways. I've used it as everything from "I'm a sorcerer with different spells" to "I'm a genetic experiment who was freed as a child, and now I have these strange abilities only barely under my control" to "I am a spirit of the inner planes made manifest; I'm traveling to find my purpose."

Don't be afraid to change the fluff in any way that suits your purposes.

[illyahr]

I like to fluff psionics as a monkish thing. They both try to master themselves and, by doing so, master their surroundings. To that end, I usually combine monk with psychic warrior. This way, I can group clerics and paladins, druids and rangers, wizards/sorcerers and bards, and psions and monks.

[Prime32]

First of all, the 3.5 rules for psionics are described in the Expanded Psionics Handbook (XPH) and also have a section on the SRD. Complete Psionic is largely regarded as one of the worst 3.5 supplements ever printed, due to a mix of bad mechanics, bad fluff (how exactly can someone be descended from mind flayers?) and bad editing. Also, don't mix the XPH up with the Psionics Handbook - that's the 3.0 ruleset, which was significantly different and more poorly-balanced.


That's actually another common theme in Psionics - many of the powers are personal where they would be castable on other people as spells.Psionics are fuelled by your own body and directed by your thoughts alone, while spells manipulate ambient energy and rely on prebuilt patterns to handle the fine details for you. This means that there are very few powers you can manifest and then just leave to their own devices (unless they're tied to your body), nor are there many powers that can detect things and make their own decisions. E.g. a spell like magic mouth would be unthinkable as a psionic power.
The flip side of powers being manual rather than automatic means you have more direct control. E.g. the aura sight power lets you see peoples' alignments directly, rather than needing four separate spells to check for an alignment and report back to you.

Metapsionics are easier to use than metamagic - they have a lower cost (effectively one spell level less) in exchange for requiring you to expend psionic focus. However, this also means that you can't usually apply multiple metapsionic feats at once unless you have some way of storing multiple psionic focuses.

Speaking of which... Every creature with power points or psi-like abilities has the [Psionic] subtype. A psionic creature can take psionic feats, and can spend a full-round action to gain psionic focus. By default the only use of psionic focus is expending it to take 15 on a Concentration check, but there are a lot of feats and class features based around it (either granting continuous benefits while focused, or letting you expend your focus to gain an instant effect). The Psionic Meditation feat lets you gain focus as a move action, and the Psicrystal Containment feat lets you store a second focus in your psicrystal (you need the Psicrystal Affinity feat first to gain one).
The Wild Talent feat gives any creature 2 power points, thereby granting it the psionic subtype. The XPH also has a variant feat called Hidden Talent which isn't listed in the SRD - it can only be taken at 1st level, and has the bonus effect of granting a 1st-level power as a 1/day psi-like ability.

[Flickerdart]

(how exactly can someone be descended from mind flayers?)
The same way you can be descended from undead or elementals or whatever - in D&D, a creature that breeds while polymorphed still counts as the original form.

Also, if we're listing ways that psionics are different from spells, psionics never use foci or material components. In the event that a spell that a power is based on had an expensive focus or component, the psion must pay XP every time he manifests it. This makes it more painful (but not unbearably so) to use a whole bunch of abilities that are extraordinarily powerful on wizards, like shapechange or contingency.

[Rubik]

However, this also means that you can't usually apply multiple metapsionic feats at once unless you have some way of storing multiple psionic focuses.On the bright side, unlike with metamagic, there are no restrictions on the number of times you can use a given metapsionic feat on a power other than the number of foci you've got and how many pp you can spend. So you can, for example, Empower a power twice. Most metapsionic feats are useless in this regard; double-Quickening or double-Maximizing, for instance, is just a waste of power points. But you can certainly double-Empower all you like.


Also, if we're listing ways that psionics are different from spells, psionics never use foci or material components. In the event that a spell that a power is based on had an expensive focus or component, the psion must pay XP every time he manifests it. This makes it more painful (but not unbearably so) to use a whole bunch of abilities that are extraordinarily powerful on wizards, like shapechange or contingency.No material components, no verbal or somatic components, and no divine or arcane focuses. What would be a focus or material component for slot-based casters is usually a target in a psionic power -- if it is involved at all. Compare Fabricate and its psionic counterpart, for example. Honestly, the psionic version makes WAY more sense, if you think about it.

[Flickerdart]

On the bright side, unlike with metamagic, there are no restrictions on the number of times you can use a given metapsionic feat on a power other than the number of foci you've got and how many pp you can spend. So you can, for example, Empower a power twice. Most metapsionic feats are useless in this regard; double-Quickening or double-Maximizing, for instance, is just a waste of power points. But you can certainly double-Empower all you like.
I've never actually been able to find rules support for this, but I've heard it often. Do you have a quote?



No material components, no verbal or somatic components, and no divine or arcane focuses. What would be a focus or material component for slot-based casters is usually a target in a psionic power -- if it is involved at all. Compare Fabricate and its psionic counterpart, for example. Honestly, the psionic version makes WAY more sense, if you think about it.
Right, right - instead of components, psionics have displays (from normal stuff like visual and leaving ectoplasm behind, to olfactory and mental stimuli) but everyone just hits the trivial Concentration check to suppress them.

This also means that psionic characters are never in danger of losing a power when they wear armour.

[illyahr]

how exactly can someone be descended from mind flayers?

Mind flayers replace a creature's skull with thier own body and hijack the rest for transport. All the plumbing still works, in theory, as long as it remains undamaged as the body's nervous system connects to the illithid's mind.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Mind flayers replace a creature's skull with thier own body and hijack the rest for transport. All the plumbing still works, in theory, as long as it remains undamaged as the body's nervous system connects to the illithid's mind.

There is also the half-illithid template in Fiend Folio. Plus the random experiments of the mind flyers could have all sorts of consequences.

[Waazraath]

In a battle between astral constructs and summon monsters, the monsters win. SLAs on summons are way better than choosing abilities from a small list. Polymorph is better than metamorphosis, and shapechange is better than greater metamorphosis. Psions are rubbish blasters compared to arcane casters past the wee early levels because they have to jump through hoops just to use their metapsionics a second time.

As for polymorph, I´ll give it has advantages over metamorphosis. But as for the summoning: a psionic character needs only 1 first level power. It has quite some customization options, so it can easily create the construct needed (flying, swimming, high AC, high damage...). Summon monster are a lot of spells, so for sorcerers it's hopeless to try and compete with psionic users in the long run, unless they spend almost half of their spell selection on SM I - IX. An optimizer will get more out of SM though, especially when it has all the supplements ready, and knows by heart all the different monsters and their SLA's. But for blasting.... just no. It's so easy for a psion to increase damage and manifester level for blasting spells.... overchannel/talented, priviliged energy, envoy cognizance... metapsionic is cheaper, and though the focus can be a problem, it's easy to give the psi chrystal a focus as well, and there are tricks to quickly regain the focus. And only 1 level in a prestige class can increase damage significantly, if you like to gamble (anarchic initiate). Of course, plenty of tricks to make a blaster wizard or a mailman variant, but 'rubbish blasters'... hell no.

[Red Fel]

There is also the half-illithid template in Fiend Folio. Plus the random experiments of the mind flyers could have all sorts of consequences.

Well, hold on. The Half-Illithid template does not, as most half-X races do, represent one Illithid and one non-Illithid parent. The Half-Illithid, according to Fiend Folio, is formed when the Illithid tadpole is planted in a sub-optimal race, such as Lizardfolk. It's not about having an ancestor, but about being a sub-par defect.

[Flickerdart]

"Quickly regain the focus" - yeah, good luck regaining focus while you're still manifesting the power. A wizard can stick Maximize and Empower on one spell just by existing, and then grab Arcane Thesis and Metamagic School Focus and all that junk to mitigate costs down to free or nearly free. A psion needs to take Psicrystal Affinity and Solicit Psicrystal just to be able to Maximize and Empower the same power, and then once he does that, he needs to take Psionic Meditation to refresh his focus as a move action, plus Expanded Knowledge: Hustle if he wants to do it as a swift. Oh, and he has to choose between boosting his power's damage with augmentation, and boosting it with metapsionics. The wizard gets both.

The only psionic blaster worth considering is Dominant Ideal Ardent.

[Rubik]

I've never actually been able to find rules support for this, but I've heard it often. Do you have a quote?Well, for one, there's no text in any book, anywhere, that forbids stacking the same metapsionic feat more than once, when every other magic system out there explicitly forbids it. All we have is the text saying how to use metapsionic feats on a psionic power, which states that, so long as you have the power points and foci to pay for them, and you're not spending more power points than your manifester level allows, which means you should be fully capable of applying the same metapsionic feat multiple times. Again, this is often a waste, but in the case of Empower, Widen, Extend, Enlarge, and Split Psionic Ray, there are zero indicators whatsoever that applying the same metapsionic feat twice is any different than applying two separate metapsionic feats once. There are enough limits on metapsionics that it's not even particularly powerful. You pay for metapsionics stacking through spending lots of feats for the privilege, as well as the fact that every power point you spend on the metapsionic feat is a power point you can't spend augmenting the power to wring more damage dice or higher DCs or what have you.

[Immabozo]

I'll admit. I read about a quarter of this thread and lost patience, but as it has been said, Psions have a very, very high optimization ceiling and can absolutely steal your job as DM. There are some absurd PrC, there is and ACF of an ACF of the Psion that can, potentially, single handedly make the most absurdly optimized wizard, cry in the corner (StP Erudite). some PrC and power combos are insane.

I would recommend banning StP Erudite and Thrallherd. Beyond those two, you can always ask the playground before approving things.

[Waazraath]

"Quickly regain the focus" - yeah, good luck regaining focus while you're still manifesting the power. A wizard can stick Maximize and Empower on one spell just by existing, and then grab Arcane Thesis and Metamagic School Focus and all that junk to mitigate costs down to free or nearly free. A psion needs to take Psicrystal Affinity and Solicit Psicrystal just to be able to Maximize and Empower the same power, and then once he does that, he needs to take Psionic Meditation to refresh his focus as a move action, plus Expanded Knowledge: Hustle if he wants to do it as a swift. Oh, and he has to choose between boosting his power's damage with augmentation, and boosting it with metapsionics. The wizard gets both.

The only psionic blaster worth considering is Dominant Ideal Ardent.

I seriously wonder though at what optimization ceiling you are aiming, if a blaster psion is 'rubbish' and 'not worth considering'. Let's do an example and some numbers.

Lets take a level 6 psion. Let's make it a synad, to stay in psionic flavour, even tough the extra feat of human would get a higher damage output. We have five feats, take overchannel, psicrystal affinity, empower power, priviledged energy, psicrystal containment. Take one power, energy missile. Every combat, you manifest two rounds in a row an enegy missile doing 51 damage. (1d6+2, empowerd, manifester level 7). Five targets (can include equipment, if not enough enemies are in radius.

Now take a MM, and look at some critters in range (CR5, 6, 7); lots of them betweeen 40 - 80 HP. Which means that only 1 power, of 1 out of the 4 character in the average party, almost or entirely kills something that should be a relevant threat. Exept that it can (almost) kill 5 of them. Or their equipment, if there aren't 5 enemies.

At the higher levels, with schism and fusion, you can throw out several more powers/turn, without metapsionics (or needing focus). Overchannel will get stronger as well. You will be able to keep up doing this.

This is: without items, and without any obscene tricks. I'm not a caster optimizer, so I'm sure people with more experience with psionics (played more then once) will get much better result, and instant kill most level-relevant threats.

That is not 'rubbish', unless you play at such a high op that you are not using stock Monster Manual creatures or the ECL rules in the DMG. But at that point, we're past RAW.

[martixy]

I would recommend banning StP Erudite and Thrallherd. Beyond those two, you can always ask the playground before approving things.

Right....
The source of the problem with the second is not the class itself. It's the power of the leadership mechanic, which has nothing to do with psionics.

As for StP... well. I personally don't like the idea. Yes, it's an official variant, it's logical and obvious.

But it doesn't fit. IMO the game only loses by not keeping the magic systems separate and thus unique.

It may be appropriate for a certain type of campaign, but I also do recommend not using it.

[Flickerdart]

*snip*
Spending all your feats on a trick you can pull off 5-6 times a day, deals damage to yourself, and doesn't even kill CR-appropriate enemies. Plus it's Reflex or Fort half, SR: yes, and a crappy damage type.

Fine, I'll play your game.

Focused Specialist Evoker 6. Race irrelevant (but Human or Illumian is always nice). Feats: Bloodline of Fire (1), Fiery Burst (3), Empower Spell (5), Arcane Thesis (Scorching Ray) (6).

CL for Scorching Ray is 6 + 2 (Bloodline of Fire) + 1 (Fiery Burst) +2 (Arcane Thesis) = 11. I get 3 rays, for 12d6 points of damage, from a level 2 slot (average 42). But forget ye not my 3rd level slots! As a focused specialist who didn't dump INT, I have 5 3rd level spell slots that hold Empowered Scorching Ray. My damage for those jumps up to 63. Oh, and there's no save to half it.

To recap: I'm dealing more damage than you as many times per day as you can manifest anything at all, then have buckets of spell slots left to solve problems that aren't "blow up the dudes." And when my slots are left over, I have a reserve feat so I can set things on fire all day long. And doing any of this doesn't deal damage to my flimsy d4 hit die self.

And my familiar is fluffier than your pet rock.

Energy Missile has a better range category, but at my high CL, Scorching Ray shoots plenty far. The ray isn't as good when you're facing multiple powerful enemies, but if the encounter is CR-appropriate then each enemy is weaker and you can just split the ray. Don't bother aiming fire rays at items because it does no damage and you shouldn't blow up your future loot anyway.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Well, hold on. The Half-Illithid template does not, as most half-X races do, represent one Illithid and one non-Illithid parent. The Half-Illithid, according to Fiend Folio, is formed when the Illithid tadpole is planted in a sub-optimal race, such as Lizardfolk. It's not about having an ancestor, but about being a sub-par defect.

I should have clarified: I meant that the half-lillithid, by being not a full illithid, could possibly reproduce even if a proper illithid cannot. This is entirely possible a desired result of implantation is the capacity to create creatures that could breed and spread illithid traits in ways other than implantation.

[Waazraath]

stuff

Wut?


Fine, I'll play your game.
I'm sorry, but I really can't remember invinting you to contest who could pee the furthest, nor who could do the most damage. I gave an example on how with very little effort a psion can be made to be a more then adequate blaster.


I'm dealing more damage than you
Yes, very nice, congratulations. Since I'm not in this 'competition', you win by default.

But since I do post in this thread to give useful information in responce to the OP, I really can't help responding to some parts of your post, since it's both biased and misleading.


Spending all your feats on a trick

False. Both psicrystal affinity and psicrystal containment are gold in any psion build. Empower power is good also in generic psion builds, that don't focus on blasting. Make that 'half your feats'. And seriously, if I look at your build, you've spend all your feats on blasting as well... with arcane thesis (scorching ray) is highly situational and only works on 1 low level spell, and is quite a 'meh' choice in a campaing that runs past the low levels.


on a trick you can pull off 5-6 times a day

With this build, you have 35 + 9 (assuming int 16) + 3 (racial) = 47 power points; enough to do this 'trick' 5 times, and have 14 points left to play with. But of course, this isn't the only trick a psion has. At this level, it has 12 other powers known. With stuff like grease, time hop, matter agitation, energy wall, control sound etc. a psion can easily play the role of the god wizard BFC / utility master.... and few times a day blow up all enemies with an energy missile (2 or 3 times/day is enough in my experience). The suggestion that a kineticist psion would be a one trick pony makes me wonder if you ever played one, or played with one.


My damage for those jumps up to 63. Oh, and there's no save to half it. Yes. Exept to work, it has to make three attack rolls. I see no feats to allow it to fire into melee, so that's a -4 on attack in most cases. And in a setting with a lot of dungeons and corridors, make that another -4 for cover, having allies standing in the way. Care to calculate damage again? And calculate that the energy missile doesn't damage 1, but op to 5 creatures (you can middle it at 2,5 if you want). And indeed, there is no save to half scorching ray, if you miss, you simply do nothing at all. And that's disregarding that you made a build with only 1 option that does decent damage (scorching ray), while the energy missile can avoid resistances and immunities, target weak saves, and target vunerabilities.


And doing any of this doesn't deal damage to my flimsy d4 hit die self.

Come on.... how can you pretend this is a problem? With either human with talented, or simply the share pain / vigor combo (as almost every psion uses), this isn't a problem. A share pain / vigor psion has effective more HP then the party barbarian with 20 con. It's one of the most difficult classes to kill with HP damage.


Don't bother aiming fire rays at items because it does no damage and you shouldn't blow up your future loot anyway. Funny, cause my PHB says energy (fire) does half damage to items. And loosing the loot of the giant's club isn't going to kill your wealth, but does mitigate a lot of damage. Of course, it's all about having more options. A psion can decide to use an unempowerd energy missile to blow up the weapons of 4 charging knights, or a spell component's pouch, or some saddles, or, or, or... It's obviously a very good option, I don't understand the eagerness to argue it isn't.


doesn't even kill CR-appropriate enemies

Again, wut? We're talking about one action, by one out of the four average party members, and we're talking about threats that should be a challenge to the entire party, of which there should be aprox 4 in an adventuring day. It should't kill the enemies! And bad as it is, often, it does. Plenty of CR appropriate critters that will get wiped away with this one action. Out of experience: when the psion has a good initiative (decent dex + crystal that improves initiative), encounters can go like: "monsters show up. roll initiative. psion blows up all monsters. Rest of the party grumbles.". It forces the DM to think about the type of monsters and how close together they are positioned to avoid this (but this is of course in no way something unique for a psion and energy missile). Compared with the damage other classes do though, it's really high.


As for the OP: I'm not really eager to spend my time arguing. If you want more info, check out this psion handbook: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=l41011bjvrjgk9m0a12t1kh3k1&topic=5343 It's really good, and gives information on what you can expect.

And a correction in the damage calculation in my previous post: I calculated with 7d6, should have been 5d6 with empower; that would end up little over 40. Can be higher with, for example, replacing empower power and psycristal containment with elemental envoy / envoy cognizance, to add another ML, but the argument above doesn't change. 40 damage is enough to either kill or significantly weaken level appropriate challenges as well.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Before I get into this, wizards are, in fact, better than Psions. However, Psions are quite handy in a PO environment (as Tippy can explain, they are the best in a TO environment, but meh).

It's easier for a psion and/or erudite to explode the action economy than it is for a wizard to do so. Linked synchronicity, schism, anticipatory strike, temporal acceleration, and of course tricking out the psicrystal all come to mind, and tend to be better than or equal to the spellcasting analogue.

Psions (with transparency on) are also far better at removing buff stacks for most levels. A level 8 psion with plain ol' overchannel (or just a level 10 psion with SF: Craft: Basketweaving) can manage a +20 on a targeted dispel check. Vigor and extra actions say "hello" to the overchannel damage.

Metamorphosis has a distinct advantage in most levels of PO: You can take strange forms like the Hairy Spider and still manifest without needing other feats/features/tricks.

Other miscellany: Touchsight and Detect Hostile Intent are fun ways to ruin ambushes. Greater Concealing Amorpha is annoying as balls if you're relying on Truesight to beat concealment (I've been there). Ego Whip was the original Shivering Touch/Ray of Stupidity before it was cool. Entangling Ectoplasm is very inexpensive good times. Whereas Hail of Stone costs money, Psions get their no save no SR AoE damage via Swarm of Crystals for no cost except PP. Psionic Glyph of Warding, a little creative engineering (basically a way to open several containers in one action), a bunch of fully augmented swarms of crystals, and a first level astral construct go well together.

[Segev]

Well, hold on. The Half-Illithid template does not, as most half-X races do, represent one Illithid and one non-Illithid parent. The Half-Illithid, according to Fiend Folio, is formed when the Illithid tadpole is planted in a sub-optimal race, such as Lizardfolk. It's not about having an ancestor, but about being a sub-par defect.

What's interesting about this is that they're racist against those that are not "pure" illithids, despite of the various horrors that spawn from poor host choices being just as intelligent, sharing their diet, and even sharing their general power suite (though, I believe, the save DCs are lower and they might not be able to mind blast quite as often). "But racism has never been based on anything sensible," you might reply. That's true. But racists have always had the comforting lie to tell themselves that God/nature/Allah/luck made "them" that way, and that they are genetically/spiritually/mentally inferior, that their culture is inherent to their skin color, etc.

Illithids make other illithids AND half-illithids AND uphorions and all the other offshoot abominations (save a few, like neothelids) deliberately, all from the same "pool" of superior (i.e. survived the elder brain and each other) tadpoles.

Making a half-illithid and making a normal illithid starts from the same basic action: grab a random tadpole from the soup. Then put it in the host. It's YOUR deliberate choice of host which determines whether it's an illithid or not...but you'll treat an illithid like another semi-equal, and a half-illithid like a slave, little better than its original host.

[ben-zayb]

Metamorphosis is inferior to Polymorph in terms of 1. being Personal range and 2. Powers having less splatbook support/expansion. Outside of that, in terms of the actual effect, it is vastly superior. Remember the last time your medium Necropolitan (or any nonliving construct) used an unmodified Polymorph while bound and gagged, to assume a gargantuan creature and got higher HP due to Con change? Me neither.