(3.5) Seeking Ray and Chain Spell Metamagic

[paranoidbox]

Sooo... What would happen if you chained a seeking ray? Do you receive a +4 to hit with future rays on all targets?

[Uncle Pine]

Yes you would, but remember that secondary targets only take 2d6 damage and get a Reflex save.

[AvatarVecna]

And don't forget to take the Tome Dodger feat.

[Uncle Pine]

And don't forget to take the Tome Dodger feat.
I think chain Seeking Ray is exactly the kind of application the developers had in mind when they wrote the feat. I'd only start to expect book thrown at me if I applied Chain Spell with a lesser metamagic rod to a sanctum ocular Polymorph (with Arcane Thesis (Polymorph) nonetheless) to turn the whole party and a bunch of low level peasants into pyrohydras on the first round of combat.

[paranoidbox]

And don't forget to take the Tome Dodger feat.

Sadly, my group finds the Reach-Chain-Launch Bolt trick worthy of throwing books at me. Which is why I'm thinking of going straight... and take some metamagic feats for 1) Seeking Ray and 2) Scorching Ray. I mean, they can't object to something as basic as a Scorching Ray right? Right?


Yes you would, but remember that secondary targets only take 2d6 damage and get a Reflex save.

The damage is inconsequential. It's the attack bonus that I find interesting.


I think chain Seeking Ray is exactly the kind of application the developers had in mind when they wrote the feat. I'd only start to expect book thrown at me if I applied Chain Spell with a lesser metamagic rod to a sanctum ocular Polymorph (with Arcane Thesis (Polymorph) nonetheless) to turn the whole party and a bunch of low level peasants into pyrohydras on the first round of combat.

That's one big cheese grilled sandwich right there.

I wasn't sure about Seeking Ray (and it doesn't entirely make sense in my mind), but I can't really find fault with it either. (Which is why I asked.)

[Uncle Pine]

Fun fact: you can't actually apply Chain Spell to Scorching Ray because it lacks a Target line.
You can, however, fire different rays from the same Scorching Ray casting at different targets you previously hit with Seeking Ray and enjoy the +4 bonus on each attack roll, but if you ask me I'd rather focus fire on a single target instead of scattering it between multiple target or resort to something else like Fireball if that's your intention.

[paranoidbox]

Fun fact: you can't actually apply Chain Spell to Scorching Ray because it lacks a Target line.
You can, however, fire different rays from the same Scorching Ray casting at different targets you previously hit with Seeking Ray and enjoy the +4 bonus on each attack roll, but if you ask me I'd rather focus fire on a single target instead of scattering it between multiple target or resort to something else like Fireball if that's your intention.

To be fair, Seeking Ray also doesn't have a target line. But, also to be fair, I'm not sure I agree with that line of reasoning anyway. I mean, I'm okay with Chain Spell not working for Scorching Ray, since it can have up to three targets, but most rays have a single target, and thus Chain Spell should work for them (but sadly, most rays don't have the target line, so etc etc you get the idea).

But I don't need Chain Spell for Scorching Ray anyway, might just do the ol' Twinned Split Quickened Scorching Ray and Twinned Split Scorching Ray one-two. I know, not very optimized, but see above where I mention the Launch Bolt trick. And with that amount of rays, I could definitely split them between several targets, depending on what level mooks they are.

Fireball wouldn't do, I don't want to give said mooks a saving throw if I can help it.

(On a related note: Why is mook not recognized as a correct word? Weird.)

[Uncle Pine]

Oh yeah, now that I look at it most rays don't have the target line even if they affect a single target and thus eligible for Chain Spell. My bad. You got the gist of my point anyway.

And yes, if you start piling up metamagic feats on Scorching Ray it's definitely better than a boring Fireball! Are you a Wizard or a Sorcerer? Arcane Fusion could be an interesting addition to the mix.

(Mook probably isn't recognized because it's slang.)

[paranoidbox]

Oh yeah, now that I look at it most rays don't have the target line even if they affect a single target and thus eligible for Chain Spell. My bad. You got the gist of my point anyway.

And yes, if you start piling up metamagic feats on Scorching Ray it's definitely better than a boring Fireball! Are you a Wizard or a Sorcerer? Arcane Fusion could be an interesting addition to the mix.

(Mook probably isn't recognized because it's slang.)

This is for a Sorcerer. I forgot about Arcane Fusion! But I doubt I can put that into the mix somehow, seeing as I won't have access to Greater Arcane Fusion (spells go up to 5th level because magic is in its infancy or... teens, I guess), so that might put a crimp on things.

(Today I learned that mook is also a book with the look, design, and lay-out of a magazine.)

[Uncle Pine]

This is for a Sorcerer. I forgot about Arcane Fusion! But I doubt I can put that into the mix somehow, seeing as I won't have access to Greater Arcane Fusion (spells go up to 5th level because magic is in its infancy or... teens, I guess), so that might put a crimp on things.
Mind, I'm not saying you should, but assuming that your metamagic stacked Scorching Ray ends up occupying a 5th level spell (I'm too sleepy at the moment to look up the cost of the various feats you mentioned) you could put Sanctum on it and fit the following inside a single Arcane Fusion: [(Lesser metamagic rod of chain) sanctum Seeking Ray] + [sanctum "metamagic stacked" Scorching Ray].

No, I'm not even going to point out that pairing Sanctum Spell with Arcane Fusion can lead to nested Arcane Fusions and infinite spells routines. Because that's cheesy. But I will point out that preemptively telling your DM that you'll be a good boy and won't do anything like that is generally encouraged.

(A mook is also a foolish or contemptible person, at least according to the Free Dictionary.)

[paranoidbox]

Mind, I'm not saying you should, but assuming that your metamagic stacked Scorching Ray ends up occupying a 5th level spell (I'm too sleepy at the moment to look up the cost of the various feats you mentioned) you could put Sanctum on it and fit the following inside a single Arcane Fusion: [(Lesser metamagic rod of chain) sanctum Seeking Ray] + [sanctum "metamagic stacked" Scorching Ray].

No, I'm not even going to point out that pairing Sanctum Spell with Arcane Fusion can lead to nested Arcane Fusions and infinite spells routines. Because that's cheesy. But I will point out that preemptively telling your DM that you'll be a good boy and won't do anything like that is generally encouraged.

(A mook is also a foolish or contemptible person, at least according to the Free Dictionary.)

I'll likely not do that and not tell the DM I won't do it. That kind of thing only gives my group a headache just from trying to understand it.

[Chronos]

Quoth Uncle Pine:

I think chain Seeking Ray is exactly the kind of application the developers had in mind when they wrote the feat.
And I think that what they had in mind was a metamagic that would turn Lightning Bolt into Chain Lightning. Even though you can't use the Chain Spell metamagic on Lightning Bolt. Never assume that the developers knew what they were doing.

[paranoidbox]

And I think that what they had in mind was a metamagic that would turn Lightning Bolt into Chain Lightning. Even though you can't use the Chain Spell metamagic on Lightning Bolt. Never assume that the developers knew what they were doing.

Though, why would they have had that in mind? There's actually a Chain Lightning spell and it's 6th level, incidentally the level a Lightning Bolt would be if you'd Chain Spell it (without reducers). It would be an endlessly elegant magic system if there were only a handful of base spells that could be expanded on by a variety of metamagic options, but that's definitely not the case here.

[Uncle Pine]

And I think that what they had in mind was a metamagic that would turn Lightning Bolt into Chain Lightning. Even though you can't use the Chain Spell metamagic on Lightning Bolt. Never assume that the developers knew what they were doing.

I meant that chain Seeking Ray is pretty much on par in terms of power with many basic options. The fact that it works very well if paired with a twinned quickened split Scorching Ray tells more about the brokeness of latter than that of the former.
In other words, I think you'll be hard pressed to find a (non core) table where a DM will throw a book at you because of chain Seeking Ray's inherent cheesiness.

[ben-zayb]

IMO what they hand in mind is something closer to using Chain Spell (Dispel Magic), matching up in level with the 6th level spell equivalent, but takes up one less Spell Known.