A Bard for Every Occasion

[Larkas]

So, in a thoroughly stupid and futile conversation, this guy is arguing that a bard is always a useless party member and a waste of space. I try explaining that a bard can be a valuable character in pretty much any situation, coming out-of-the-box able to contribute almost always and, using some optimization, being able to fill any one or two roles perfectly. The guy argues that no, a Wizard is always a better proposition, and cites Treantmonk's GOD Wizard optimization guide, and that the Rogue is better than the Bard in most respects too (???). I explain that OF COURSE the Wizard is better, just that the Bard can also be good, and seeing as D&D is usually played with a party of characters, there can be space for both in a team. I go on to explain the Tier System, and the guy just say that he doesn't see the point in playing any character that's not T1/2, save if you're playing for fun. (Why would anyone play otherwise???)

Long story short, this isn't going anywhere. But I wanted to try something, if not to convince this guy (who doesn't seem like he's going to budge anyways), then to contribute to the Playground: make a compilation of "classic" Bard builds, indicating what they can do well (better than most every other characters). For example:

- Bardsader/Bardblade
Upsides: competent melee combatant, area buffing, battlefield controlling.
Downsides: almost useless spellcasting.
Basics: mix bard and a full BAB initiator class for fun and profit.

- IC/DFI optmized Bard
Upsides: awesome area buffing, low impact on build.
Downsides: none, might limit race choice.
Basics: Take Dragonfire Inspiration and don't ever look back.

And so on and so forth. I'm having a hard time classifying the Sublime Chord (I mean, it CAN do everything), and I can't quite remember any other build. :smallfrown: Could you guys help me out? I'm starting from scratch here, mind, and I don't have any emotional attachment to the examples or presentations above, so just give me all your opinions on how I should do this, and which information to present!

[Flickerdart]

There's always bardzilla (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?154326-3-5-quot-Bardzilla-quot).

[Âmesang]

What, no "Big Barda?" :smalltongue:

[paranoidbox]

You should tell him they're all good. Just pick a bard, any bard.

[Troacctid]

Sublime Chord is a caster. Stormsinger is a blaster. Urban Savant is a knowledge-monkey.

[Gabrosin]

My favorite bard build: Bard 4/Crusader 1/Bard 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Warblade 1/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Spellsword 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 8.

What does this get you?

- Early survivability. You can bump Crusader 1 to the front of the build if you're starting anywhere before level 5, and all you lose is level 2 maneuvers in your opening list. One level of Crusader goes a long way, with five points of delayed damage and the ability to take Martial Spirit for small amounts of healing on every attack.
- Inspire Courage is still strong, even if you only ever get to Bard 6. You can use the Eberron ACF to take Song of the Heart at Bard 6, and you can tack on DFI/WoC/Badge of Valor/masterwork horn/Inspirational Boost as you desire.
- Jade Phoenix Mage 2 amps up your ability to take a hit even further, letting you turn a daily spell slot into potent damage reduction, up to DR 10/- for a level 5 slot sacrificed...
- ...which you'll have starting at level 11, because Sublime Chord being advanced by JPM will get you all the way to 9ths at level 20.
- You get up to eighth level maneuvers (in Devoted Spirit, anyway), but instead of sticking them in the Crusader's random recovery method, you can add them to your Warblade list instead, which when taken at level 9 can get you some of the best maneuvers available, namely Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics. I also add Wall of Blades (swat a ray spell out of the air with your sword? Sure will!) and a White Raven stance for Song of the White Raven swift action inspire courage.

Are you going to be better than a Wizard 20? No. Better than a Sorcerer 20? You'll be comparable, though they get 9ths two levels before you do. You'll wind up with BAB +17 (or +18 if you're using fractional BAB) and reasonably strong saves. You'll get all the big advantages of a bard, like strong social skills and inspire courage, while souping up your martial and magic capabilities to be roughly equivalent to other classes who focus only on those aspects.

Will this convince a bard-hater that they're not a waste of space? Probably not. Will it be awesome to play at the table, strong in every situation while staying away from being broken? Definitely.

[Hiro Quester]

Person Man has built an awesome Fear Bard here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?67232-Fear-the-Bard!!!

[ManicOppressive]

I find that a great divide for newer players vs the ones who have figured out the basics of how to succeed in 3.5 is how they look at Bards. Newer, inexperienced players, the kind who think that fighters are super powerful and that Wizards who don't prepare Fireball in all of their slots are lame, tend to view Bards as dead weight since they don't get blasty spells or a great BAB. There's usually an uncomfortable click in every player's history when they realized how powerful Bards are.

My favorite Bard build is

Bard 7/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade 1/Eldritch Knight or whatever 1/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 2/Eldritch Knight or whatever again 1

It gives +16 BAB and 9th level spells and the Spelldancer dip allows for Persist Spell buffs. It's not the most efficient way to get BAB with spells, but it's a fun and flavorful way that gives you a character that sings and dances their way across the battlefield. Swap the Eldritch Knight level in the beginning for a Battle Dancer dip (and the one at the end for something that gives BAB and spell advancement, it really doesn't matter what) and you can dump quite a bit of extra durability into the mix.

[Telonius]

From this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12870476&postcount=4)post: Savage Bard8/Ur-Priest2/Sublime Chord2/Mystic Theurge 8. 9th level spells in both the Sorcerer/Wizard and Cleric list.

[daremetoidareyo]

From this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12870476&postcount=4)post: Savage Bard8/Ur-Priest2/Sublime Chord2/Mystic Theurge 8. 9th level spells in both the Sorcerer/Wizard and Cleric list.

True, this is a powerful build. It might even impress the eponymous dude from OP's post. But Ur-Priest is to builds what bacon is to recipes. It tastes good. But we all know bacon is kinda cheating.

[stanprollyright]

Core-only 3.5 Bard 20s are a bit weak, but outside of core they have a ton of amazing options. Need damage? DFI/WoC has you covered. Add Knowledge Devotion and/or Snowflake Wardance if you're doing the damage personally. High-level spells? Sublime Chord. No skill-monkey? Bardic Knack ACF with Jack-of-all trades feat. You want to debuff? Bards are great at stacking fear effects. The best part is you can combine all of these to a greater or lesser degree depending on your party. Even in core with no multiclassing, Bards are the best face characters, and I have yet to play a campaign where talking to NPCs wasn't required.

Bards are like Silent Image (and, of course, it's one of their best spells). While newer players are passing it up for Magic Missile, an experienced creative player can find tons of uses for no-save illusions, and the optimizers are making it OP with Shadowcraft Mage. The player that knows how to effectively use Silent Image is the same player that can make an awesome Bard.

[Socratov]

Also, don't forget Healing Hymn from Complete Champion. Now your bard is an effective healer.

also, go Sublime Chord, Lyrical Spell and Metamagic Song and we've got a Mailman light

[Mr Adventurer]

Bardic Knack + Jack of all Trades doesn't work sadly

[BWR]

*looks at a couple builds*

I'm not sure how builds with more non-bard(ish) levels than bard(ish) levels are supposed to prove that bards are good, especially when it seems as though the heavy lifting is being done by non-bardish classes.

[daremetoidareyo]

*looks at a couple builds*

I'm not sure how builds with more non-bard(ish) levels than bard(ish) levels are supposed to prove that bards are good, especially when it seems as though the heavy lifting is being done by non-bardish classes.

Bard is the necessary ingredient. There is a thread around here somewhere about using perform checks to do direct damage that is rules legal and cheesy and fun. The dwarven chanter iron chef is neat.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Bardic Knack + Jack of all Trades doesn't work sadly
Only if you read things in the stupidest, RAW-lawyerest way possible.

But I think BWR has a good point. If you want to convince someone that Bard is good, you need to have mostly Bard levels in your build-- or at least PrCs that progress the key Bard abilities. So, good tricks that work on a primarily-Bardic build:

Dragonfire Inspiration, obviously, and Inspire Courage more generally. (The basic Inspirational Boost + Badge of Valor + Song of the Heart (traded for Suggestion) combo is dead easy and requires little real investment; DFI and Words of Creation make it insane)
Snowflake Wardance and a Crystal Echoblade let you melee it up with the best of them. Slippers of Battledancing even moreso, though those are a bit harder to use effectively and aren't uniquely Bardic.
Metamagic Song is Divine Metamagic lite.

[stanprollyright]

*looks at a couple builds*

I'm not sure how builds with more non-bard(ish) levels than bard(ish) levels are supposed to prove that bards are good, especially when it seems as though the heavy lifting is being done by non-bardish classes.

Not true. They all progress Bard casting and/or Bardic Music.

Let's look at the basic bard chassis: 3/4 BAB, d6 HD, 6+int skill points, and spellcasting. Reliable party buffs that work on you too can make up the difference for your medium BAB and increase the whole party's damage output. Inspire Courage is easily optimized to provide ridiculously high damage. Better weapon proficiencies than any of the other core classes with medium BAB, 2 good saves and the ability to use light armor and a shield. Full caster level and a smattering of early-access spells, meaning that any spell you cast is just as powerful as a Wizard or Cleric casting the same spell. You're an armored arcane caster who can cast healing spells, but not as well as a divine caster (which is fine; healing is a bad in-combat role). Charisma-based with skill points to spare and UMD as a class skill for more castery goodness. Only 2 fewer skill points per level than a Rogue with a similar class list, plus Bardic Knowledge (or Bardic Knack) and utility spells that more than make up the difference. You've got some great control/debuffing options, especially of the mind-affecting and fear varieties. Proficiency with a whip, which, in addition to simply being cool, is great for tripping and disarming.

Basically, you can do everything. Specialize your build for damage or control or buffing or skill-monkery, and still be competent at everything else.

[ManicOppressive]

*looks at a couple builds*

I'm not sure how builds with more non-bard(ish) levels than bard(ish) levels are supposed to prove that bards are good, especially when it seems as though the heavy lifting is being done by non-bardish classes.

If you're single-class, all you need to do is grab Snowflake Wardance and you're a better martial class than the Fighter. An optimized Bard is still a better gish-in-a-can than a Duskblade in most circumstances.

[stanprollyright]

If you're single-class, all you need to do is grab Snowflake Wardance and you're a better martial class than the Fighter. An optimized Bard is still a better gish-in-a-can than a Duskblade in most circumstances.

Between DFI, Words of Creation, Song of the Heart, Snowflake Wardance, Knowledge Devotion, and spells like Haste, Heroism, and Alter Self, you can smash faces with the best of them.

[Mr Adventurer]

Only if you read things in the stupidest, RAW-lawyerest way possible.

... The feat says 1/2 rank, the ACF says 1 rank. There's no interpretation there - it's pretty ****in' straightforward.

[BWR]

Not true. They all progress Bard casting and/or Bardic Music.

That's hardly the point. The point is that some people are throwing a whole bunch of other non-bard stuff in there to show that bard is good. What's the most powerful bit of bard/Ur-priest mix, just to make it simple? The Ur-priest, obviously, and the bard is pretty much irrelevant. In order to show that a bard is good you have to go all Bard or only choose PrCs which are very specifically bardic, which Ur-priest, JPM, Abjurant Champion etc. most decidedly are not.

[ManicOppressive]

Yeah, and most of the (non Ur-priest) examples revolve around Sublime Chord, which is about as strictly Bardic as it gets. (I legitimately don't know any way into SC without Bard.)

As far as saying that PrCs advancing the Bard class features don't count... Well, that's most of optimization in 3.5. With the exception of full casters, pretty much everyone is better off dumping piles of PrCs on their base class, and even full casters usually benefit from it. Saying that Abjurant Champion and others don't count for making Bards good is silly because those builds work best with the Bard base. It's not just that they're going <Any class that can satisfy requirements> 1/Overpowered PrC 9, they're going for a build that is one of the optimal ways to achieve power with that prestige class.

But as mentioned, there are plenty of ways to be a super-powerful Bard with just Sublime Chord. Namely, by being a Sublime Chord. And as I mentioned before, single-class bards are perfectly capable of eclipsing any martial class other than those from the Book of Fightan Magic.

You're not wrong on Ur-Priest, it DOES pretty much make anyone it touches powerful just on its own merits. But things like Abjurant Champion definitely don't instantly elevate any class to nuclear threat, and, at least imo, Bard builds very concretely make the best Abjurant Champions.

[Grod_The_Giant]

... The feat says 1/2 rank, the ACF says 1 rank. There's no interpretation there - it's pretty ****in' straightforward.
The ACF is trying to reiterate the rules for untrained skills in the PHB. The feat says you can now use untrained skills. Your reading would have a jack-of-all-trades class feature making it HARDER to use skills, which is some straight ****. It's pedantry on the order of "monks aren't proficient with unarmed strikes" or drown-healing.

[stanprollyright]

That's hardly the point. The point is that some people are throwing a whole bunch of other non-bard stuff in there to show that bard is good. What's the most powerful bit of bard/Ur-priest mix, just to make it simple? The Ur-priest, obviously, and the bard is pretty much irrelevant. In order to show that a bard is good you have to go all Bard or only choose PrCs which are very specifically bardic, which Ur-priest, JPM, Abjurant Champion etc. most decidedly are not.

I'll give you Ur-Priest, but Abjurant Champion and JPM are both caster progression PrCs and this is D&D 3.5. Everybody already knows about Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 which is the optimized bard-flavored bard build. The fact that bards multiclass so well is a testament of its own.


The ACF is trying to reiterate the rules for untrained skills in the PHB. The feat says you can now use untrained skills. Your reading would have a jack-of-all-trades class feature making it HARDER to use skills, which is some straight ****. It's pedantry on the order of "monks aren't proficient with unarmed strikes" or drown-healing.

There is a 3.0 version of the feat that doesn't give 1/2 ranks, it just says "can use trained-only skills untrained."

[KellKheraptis]

Out of curiosity, would the OP's anti-bard troll be satisfied if I posted a build that could complete the Gish challenge (down a CR 57 Heca without shapechange abilities), the TBoS, and the 10^100 challenge? Because I can whip that up over the next few days, if that would get the point across to him/her :)

[Larkas]

*looks at a couple builds*

I'm not sure how builds with more non-bard(ish) levels than bard(ish) levels are supposed to prove that bards are good, especially when it seems as though the heavy lifting is being done by non-bardish classes.

I strongly disagree. While you could have a point regarding builds that call for "generic (arcane) caster", this isn't the case of any build presented here, save for maybe the Ur-Priest example. Even if Ur-Priest is doing the "heavy lifting" in the build, it's still pretty amazing that the Bard can pull it off as easily as any full caster, and still land double 9s with the help of a pretty Bard-specific PrC. Even if it's not the case of "look, the Bard can pull this off!", it's still the case of "look, the Bard can also pull this off easily!". It's not as if you're relying solely on the strength of another base class to shine. I mean, you can play a Persistomancer that has a level of Fighter thrown somewhere in the build, but there's no contest that the strength of the build lies on the caster part: the Fighter isn't really contributing significantly to the build. Besides, consider this: the Rainbow Warnsnake is an almost perfect combination of its component classes, but there's no question that the PrC is doing the "heavy lifting" in the build, skyrocketing the character from T4/3 straight into T1/0-land. Is it any less Warmage-y because of that? Certainly not.


Out of curiosity, would the OP's anti-bard troll be satisfied if I posted a build that could complete the Gish challenge (down a CR 57 Heca without shapechange abilities), the TBoS, and the 10^100 challenge? Because I can whip that up over the next few days, if that would get the point across to him/her :)

Oh, I'm not trying to convince the guy of anything anymore, really. But I'd really like to see that build! :smallwink:

[Talionis]

Probably be a good idea to find the "Joker Bard" that was supposed to rival Batman Wizard in here. I'm not at my PC or I'd help more and I'm not sure where the most optimized version is but it's worth looking at...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?99903-Batman-s-Bane-The-Joker

[stanprollyright]

Out of curiosity, would the OP's anti-bard troll be satisfied if I posted a build that could complete the Gish challenge (down a CR 57 Heca without shapechange abilities), the TBoS, and the 10^100 challenge? Because I can whip that up over the next few days, if that would get the point across to him/her :)

Please do this :D

[GreyBlack]

This friend knows not of what he speaks. For my money, the bard is potentially the single most potent class in the game, with one of the highest ceilings possible (IMHO higher than potentially any non-T1 spellcaster, though T2 does get ridiculous, please don't correct me there). I may or may not have broken a DM by playing a Chaotic Good bard, taking Leadership, then freeing all of the slaves from a tyrannical nation by sending my army to fight while I played my alphorn.

Show him Words of Creation, Dragonfire Inspiration, and the Alphorn. He will quickly recant.

[KellKheraptis]

While it seems the point has been made, I'll go ahead and get started on the uberbard. Once finished, I'll post a stub/table and breakdown of buffs.

[GreyBlack]

While it seems the point has been made, I'll go ahead and get started on the uberbard. Once finished, I'll post a stub/table and breakdown of buffs.

You are officially my new favorite person ever.

[illyahr]

The God of Bards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19127278&postcount=446) is pleased with this thread. May you all have good karma in the coming week.

That said, I've always been a fan of the Diplomancer bard. When you can talk drow into opening trade lines with elves and dwarves, you have broken something.

Bard/Crusader, Inspire Competence on self, Crusader aura to boost skill checks, a few feats to boost your diplomacy, sense motive, and bluff, a cloak to boost Charisma, glibness, and that one magic item that boosts all your Cha-based skill checks. I got my diplomacy up to a +45 before the wizard had 7th-level spells. :smallbiggrin:

[ManicOppressive]

I don't know a single DM who allows Diplomancer shenanigans. Most good DMs use alternative rules (Like Burlew's) and most bad DMs just say no to anything ridiculous regardless of what the dice say.

[illyahr]

It was a mid- to high-op group. I was allowed to do some silly things in order to compete with the field control wizard and a wildshaping battle druid. :smallbiggrin:

That beings said, it wasn't as if I was Diplomancing everything in sight. I would only use my nation-shaping powers for nation-shaping events. My talking a drow community into trade agreements prevented a war. And it was fun. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[Endarire]

Do you mean "one bard that can fit all occasions" or "an equal number of bards to occasions?"

[tiercel]

An additional piece of bard tastiness is that if you have a DM who won't give Bardic Knowledge or Bardic Knack much latitude--or if you're PrCing out of bard per se---BAM! Just kick it up a notch with Loresong ACF (Dungeonscape), because immediate-action +4 insight bonuses to saves won't get old.

[ben-zayb]

If you could also give me time to get on a desktop (few days), I can also post a nasty Bard 20-ish (18+) using the Bardiest of cheeses.

[BWR]

I'll give you Ur-Priest, but Abjurant Champion and JPM are both caster progression PrCs and this is D&D 3.5. Everybody already knows about Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 which is the optimized bard-flavored bard build. The fact that bards multiclass so well is a testament of its own.

Abjurant Champion and JPM are not bard classes or even vaguely bardlike. If you have to mix in non-bardlike things to show how good bardic things are you are not proving your point very well. Multiclassing out of bard doesn't do wonders to prove your point either.

[stanprollyright]

Abjurant Champion and JPM are not bard classes or even vaguely bardlike. If you have to mix in non-bardlike things to show how good bardic things are you are not proving your point very well. Multiclassing out of bard doesn't do wonders to prove your point either.

They're PrCs for arcane casters, which Bards definitely are. They have as much claim to those classes as any other arcane caster. More, potentially, because they're gishy PrCs and Bards are already gishy. I've seen more Bards go into JPM than any other base class. If the logic is "strong classes never multiclass" then druids are the only strong class in the game. If your Cleric only has 3 levels of Cleric and the rest are caster PrCs it's still a Cleric build. Same with Wizard and Sorcerer and Beguiler and Warmage and Dread Necro and Healer and Shaman and Shujenja and every other class there is.

[Flickerdart]

I would say that's not entirely true.

A cleric that takes 3 levels, pivots into Knight of the Raven or Contemplative or whatever, and never looks back is still just as much a cleric as his cleric 20 brother. They can both do the same things that mark them as clerics (cast cleric spells in armour, spontaneously cast cures, beat face with mace). The only thing the first cleric loses out on is turning power (but not capacity) and some domain powers that measure cleric level.

A sorcerer that takes 6 levels and then jumps into Incantatrix is still a sorcerer, by the same metric - aside from his familiar (which he probably traded away or took Obtain Familiar for) he does everything that a sorcerer 20 can do (and more, but that's besides the point).

A bard with only 8 levels of bard is a pretty bardy bard, but not as bardy as a bard 20, who has four more songs (greatness, freedom, heroics, mass suggestion) and 12 more uses, as well as better bardic knowledge, stronger inspire courage, and more fascinate targets with longer duration. Bards don't get as many class features as other classes such as monk or barbarian, but the ones they do get are pretty bard-defining, and taking a PrC that advances your casting but not your other, equally bardy abilities, makes you in some ways less of a bard.

[GreyBlack]

I would say that's not entirely true.

A cleric that takes 3 levels, pivots into Knight of the Raven or Contemplative or whatever, and never looks back is still just as much a cleric as his cleric 20 brother. They can both do the same things that mark them as clerics (cast cleric spells in armour, spontaneously cast cures, beat face with mace). The only thing the first cleric loses out on is turning power (but not capacity) and some domain powers that measure cleric level.

A sorcerer that takes 6 levels and then jumps into Incantatrix is still a sorcerer, by the same metric - aside from his familiar (which he probably traded away or took Obtain Familiar for) he does everything that a sorcerer 20 can do (and more, but that's besides the point).

A bard with only 8 levels of bard is a pretty bardy bard, but not as bardy as a bard 20, who has four more songs (greatness, freedom, heroics, mass suggestion) and 12 more uses, as well as better bardic knowledge, stronger inspire courage, and more fascinate targets with longer duration. Bards don't get as many class features as other classes such as monk or barbarian, but the ones they do get are pretty bard-defining, and taking a PrC that advances your casting but not your other, equally bardy abilities, makes you in some ways less of a bard.

The big problem with that is that Bard songs are tied specifically to the Bard chassis. There is no PrC that I know of that stacks for the purposes determining Bard songs. Comparatively, the Sorcerer who jumps into Incantrix still increases his major class feature (spells). As such, even jumping into a bard-like PrC kinda disqualifies itself as a "Bard," unless it boosts (for my money) Inspire Courage.

[chapel]

The big problem with that is that Bard songs are tied specifically to the Bard chassis. There is no PrC that I know of that stacks for the purposes determining Bard songs. Comparatively, the Sorcerer who jumps into Incantrix still increases his major class feature (spells). As such, even jumping into a bard-like PrC kinda disqualifies itself as a "Bard," unless it boosts (for my money) Inspire Courage.

Fochluchan Lyrist levels Bard songs like your are getting more "real" Bard Levels, but you are losing some levels to get into that PrC.
Virtuoso explicitly only stacks for Inspire Courage.

[Terrador]

Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8/Bard 3 is pretty simple mid-op and also very Bardy. If you don't care about getting Inspire Greatness late, you could get 5th-level spells at ECL 8 (suck it Tier 1), then keep pace with Wizard for the rest of your progression. Entirely free feats to turn this into pretty much whatever specialty you want (buffer, secondary melee, at mid-levels primary caster or even crafter), even if you can only get REALLY good at one or two in a single build. Not fantastic at melee (mostly d8/d6 Hit Dice with INT reliance for all those skills and Words of Creation; poor Fort and ending at +12 BAB), but still a character that contributes everywhere, all the time.


Spells per day, not counting bonus spells
0th: 3
1st: 3
2nd: 3
3rd: 2
4th: 0+5
5th: 4
6th: 4
7th: 3
8th: 3
9th: 2

Spells known
0th: 6
1st: 4
2nd: 4
3rd: 4
4th: 2+4
5th: 4
6th: 4
7th: 4
8th: 3
9th: 2


A very bardy non-Core Bard. No Song of Freedom, Inspire Heroics, or Mass Suggestion, and late Inspire Greatness, but near-max Inspire Courage and a pile of other very Bard-y abilities.

If you were to compare this stub to, say, Sorcerer 20, honestly I'd say this comes out on top at mid and high levels. Worse arcanist at early and late levels, yes, but wins HP, BAB, Reflex, skills, UMD utility, better familiar if you can take it, plus, y'know, Bard stuff.

I'd say Sorcerer is marginally better in the first quartile, loses its lead in the second (if it even has it after Bard dips into Sublime Chord; being a spell level ahead probably beats spells per day), and Bard oscillates between clearly better and marginally better until about 18th level, where the Bard stops really getting spells per day and the Sorcerer gets access to 9th-level casting.

Just one of many Bardy bards that is solidly Tier 2. Bard is good, you just have to get a little creative, then you have about as many resources to burn as other T2s to become godlike.

[stanprollyright]

Bard 7/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8/Bard 3 is pretty simple mid-op and also very Bardy. If you don't care about getting Inspire Greatness late, you could get 5th-level spells at ECL 8 (suck it Tier 1), then keep pace with Wizard for the rest of your progression. Entirely free feats to turn this into pretty much whatever specialty you want (buffer, secondary melee, at mid-levels primary caster or even crafter), even if you can only get REALLY good at one or two in a single build. Not fantastic at melee (mostly d8/d6 Hit Dice with INT reliance for all those skills and Words of Creation; poor Fort and ending at +12 BAB), but still a character that contributes everywhere, all the time.


Spells per day, not counting bonus spells
0th: 3
1st: 3
2nd: 3
3rd: 2
4th: 0+5
5th: 4
6th: 4
7th: 3
8th: 3
9th: 2

Spells known
0th: 6
1st: 4
2nd: 4
3rd: 4
4th: 2+4
5th: 4
6th: 4
7th: 4
8th: 3
9th: 2


A very bardy non-Core Bard. No Song of Freedom, Inspire Heroics, or Mass Suggestion, and late Inspire Greatness, but near-max Inspire Courage and a pile of other very Bard-y abilities.

If you were to compare this stub to, say, Sorcerer 20, honestly I'd say this comes out on top at mid and high levels. Worse arcanist at early and late levels, yes, but wins HP, BAB, Reflex, skills, UMD utility, better familiar if you can take it, plus, y'know, Bard stuff.

I'd say Sorcerer is marginally better in the first quartile, loses its lead in the second (if it even has it after Bard dips into Sublime Chord; being a spell level ahead probably beats spells per day), and Bard oscillates between clearly better and marginally better until about 18th level, where the Bard stops really getting spells per day and the Sorcerer gets access to 9th-level casting.

Just one of many Bardy bards that is solidly Tier 2. Bard is good, you just have to get a little creative, then you have about as many resources to burn as other T2s to become godlike.

Agree on everything, except: how did you get into Sublime Chord at level 8? It requires 13 ranks in both Listen and Knowledge (arcana).


I would say that's not entirely true.

A cleric that takes 3 levels, pivots into Knight of the Raven or Contemplative or whatever, and never looks back is still just as much a cleric as his cleric 20 brother. They can both do the same things that mark them as clerics (cast cleric spells in armour, spontaneously cast cures, beat face with mace). The only thing the first cleric loses out on is turning power (but not capacity) and some domain powers that measure cleric level.

A sorcerer that takes 6 levels and then jumps into Incantatrix is still a sorcerer, by the same metric - aside from his familiar (which he probably traded away or took Obtain Familiar for) he does everything that a sorcerer 20 can do (and more, but that's besides the point).

A bard with only 8 levels of bard is a pretty bardy bard, but not as bardy as a bard 20, who has four more songs (greatness, freedom, heroics, mass suggestion) and 12 more uses, as well as better bardic knowledge, stronger inspire courage, and more fascinate targets with longer duration. Bards don't get as many class features as other classes such as monk or barbarian, but the ones they do get are pretty bard-defining, and taking a PrC that advances your casting but not your other, equally bardy abilities, makes you in some ways less of a bard.


The big problem with that is that Bard songs are tied specifically to the Bard chassis. There is no PrC that I know of that stacks for the purposes determining Bard songs. Comparatively, the Sorcerer who jumps into Incantrix still increases his major class feature (spells). As such, even jumping into a bard-like PrC kinda disqualifies itself as a "Bard," unless it boosts (for my money) Inspire Courage.

I would argue that "more, better Bardic Musics" is (excuse the pun) a variation on a theme, the theme being Bardic Music and the chorus being Inspire Courage. PrCs that only a Bard can enter without shenanigans are very bardy, but even they don't grant you those other songs (with the noted exception of Fochluchan Lyrist, which is a theurge class that requires multiclassing into both Druid and a class that grants evasion - not very bardy at all). Many ACFs and substitution levels replace one or more of these songs - these don't make you any less bardy, unless the requirement is "as close to straight-classed vanilla bard as possible" which I think is a silly requirement on an optimization board. Virtuoso, Seeker of the Song, Sublime Chord, and War Singer are all very bardy and give you a different set of Bardic Music abilities while advancing Inspire Courage and continuing to grant uses. Some of them lose out on spells or BAB or skill points, but it just represents a shift in focus. Losing Bard casting is definitely a blow to your bardy-ness, but one might argue that Bardic Music is the single unique defining feature of the Bard, and that Seeker of the Song is just as bardy as Virtuoso, much like a Master of Many forms is still druid-y (but less so, as the animal companion and full spellcasting are more core to what a druid is than spells to a bard. They're certainly an important part of what makes a bard, but they're also easier to part with in favor of progressing other things that are just as bardy. Paladins and Rangers who give up their spellcasting might be a bit less ranger-y or paladin-y, but not significantly so). It's interesting to note that of the four bardiest PrCs, only Sublime Chord advances Bardic Knowledge. However, not stacking it doesn't remove the ability, it just makes it comparatively weaker while still allowing you to make the check whenever appropriate. In that way, having bardic knowledge is more important than having bardic knowledge +20. It's like saying a Cleric who focuses more on Str and less on Wis is a less cleric-y Cleric because he'll have crappier DCs and fewer spells per day. You could make the same argument for Bardic Music, but I'm of the position that you do, in fact, lose some bardy-ness by not at least advancing Inspire Courage. It really just comes down to the fact that Bards are their own little special dancing snowflakes (see what I did there?) who can fill any role they want. They're a caster/warrior/gish/face/buffer/skillmonkey/controller/sage that can specialize in any three of those areas to great effect, while still being decent-ish at the rest. When optimizing a jack-of-all-trades you've got to sacrifice efficacy at some trades in favor of others.

[Endarire]

I know it's possible to enter Sublime Chord a level early due to Favored and skill reqs, but entering it at level 8? How?

[Troacctid]

I know it's possible to enter Sublime Chord a level early due to Favored and skill reqs, but entering it at level 8? How?

Become a wereboar, then later have your lycanthrope removed.

[Larkas]

Become a wereboar, then later have your lycanthrope removed.

How does that even work? :smallconfused: I'm not doubting it works, but I thought you lost skill points/ranks when you lost a level/HD?

[Gabrosin]

Abjurant Champion and JPM are not bard classes or even vaguely bardlike. If you have to mix in non-bardlike things to show how good bardic things are you are not proving your point very well. Multiclassing out of bard doesn't do wonders to prove your point either.

This isn't true at all either. A bard is both a warrior and an arcanist. Gishy PrCs that advance and improve both aspects absolutely should be considered bardlike. Saying a prestige class isn't "bardlike" if it doesn't advance music is like saying Cavalier isn't a paladin PrC because it doesn't advance smiting, or that Beastmaster isn't a druid PrC because it doesn't advance wild shape.

It's already been demonstrated that you can build a very strong high-level character using Bard 20 or Bard 10/Virtuoso 10. But the fact that you can take a bard chassis in so many different directions is an asset, not a liability. In fact, small amounts of bard are more likely to define the flavor of a player than most other classes. A character with just a few levels of bard (e.g. Crusader 16/Bard 4) is still going to feel very bard-y, because you're going to be regularly using inspire courage and all the social skills bard enables for you. By contrast, plenty of optimized characters dip for small amounts of barbarian (for pounce), monk (for the AC bonus), fighter (for bonus feats), ranger (for fighting styles), and cleric (for domains) and then let themselves be defined by the remainder of their build. But even a small amount of bard is always a bard.

[Troacctid]

How does that even work? :smallconfused: I'm not doubting it works, but I thought you lost skill points/ranks when you lost a level/HD?

Become afflicted at level 7, so you now meet the prerequisites (although your ECL goes up to 12). Take three more class levels (up to ECL 15) before having the curse removed (back down to ECL 10). You lose the extra skill points, but you now have additional class levels to make them up.

[Terrador]

...reading why. Why do I do this. Why did I find the one bad print that says you need only 10 ranks of Listen/Know(Arcana).

Eh, Bard 10/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 still works, just not quite as well.

[Grod_The_Giant]

...reading why. Why do I do this. Why did I find the one bad print that says you need only 10 ranks of Listen/Know(Arcana).

Eh, Bard 10/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 8 still works, just not quite as well.
Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8?

[ben-zayb]

Become afflicted at level 7, so you now meet the prerequisites (although your ECL goes up to 12). Take three more class levels (up to ECL 15) before having the curse removed (back down to ECL 10). You lose the extra skill points, but you now have additional class levels to make them up.

Considering your ECL will blow up the wazoo after doing that, it'd take a eidiculous amount of time to gain even one class level. Meanwhile, your non-Master-of-None party gets even better at what they really do best.

[Troacctid]

Considering your ECL will blow up the wazoo after doing that, it'd take a eidiculous amount of time to gain even one class level. Meanwhile, your non-Master-of-None party gets even better at what they really do best.

Yes, I don't recommend it. It's very inefficient.

[Larkas]

Become afflicted at level 7, so you now meet the prerequisites (although your ECL goes up to 12). Take three more class levels (up to ECL 15) before having the curse removed (back down to ECL 10). You lose the extra skill points, but you now have additional class levels to make them up.

Wow, now THAT'S convoluted. Okay, not nearly as convoluted as many other TO tricks, but still, you won't be able to pull this off in most games that do not start at 10 (or most likely, 15). Still, fun times!

[stanprollyright]

Bard 8/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8?

I like Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. Inspire Greatness at 9 is better IMO than the Virtuoso capstone.

[Hiro Quester]

I like Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. Inspire Greatness at 9 is better IMO than the Virtuoso capstone.

I agree. I got a lot of good use out of Inspire Greatness. Especially if you get a horn of resilience (one recipient gets another 50 bonus HP). Our party tank loved that one, though as a melee bard, I often used that benefit on myself, too.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I like Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8. Inspire Greatness at 9 is better IMO than the Virtuoso capstone.
Ooh, forgot about Greatness. I've been doing a bunch of IC stuff recently and got the level 8 breakpoint stuck in my head.

[Edgar Snow]

Rogue 2, Bard 2, Druid 1, Green Whisperer 5, Fochlucan Lyrist for the rest.

I've always wanted to play this character, and a Dragonwrought Kobold with DFI, with some IC and CL boosts. Buffer/BFC with added summons. I'd also want UA variant classes, like the Hunter Druid and perhaps Feat Rogue.

Wizard? No. Optimization? Low. But a non-cheese, non-dismissable prereq Fochlucan Lyrist is a long time goal of mine. And Kobolds with perform is great for RP moments. I suggest changing popular songs with words like dragon, Kobold, lizard, etc.

"Seven a.m., waking up in the morning
Gotta be fresh, gotta go get spells,
Gotta have my bowl, gotta have my squirrel stew...
It's Kobold, Kobold, gotta get down with Koboo-oo-old!"

[Grod_The_Giant]

So your goal is to be the Lizard King?

[Edgar Snow]

So your goal is to be the Lizard King?

"I can do anything".

Sounds like a jack of all trades. And that sounds like a FL.

So... Yes. Absolutely.

[Waazraath]

So, in a thoroughly stupid and futile conversation, this guy is arguing that a bard is always a useless party member and a waste of space. I try explaining that a bard can be a valuable character in pretty much any situation, coming out-of-the-box able to contribute almost always and, using some optimization, being able to fill any one or two roles perfectly. The guy argues that no, a Wizard is always a better proposition, and cites Treantmonk's GOD Wizard optimization guide, and that the Rogue is better than the Bard in most respects too (???). I explain that OF COURSE the Wizard is better, just that the Bard can also be good, and seeing as D&D is usually played with a party of characters, there can be space for both in a team. I go on to explain the Tier System, and the guy just say that he doesn't see the point in playing any character that's not T1/2, save if you're playing for fun. (Why would anyone play otherwise???)

Long story short, this isn't going anywhere. But I wanted to try something, if not to convince this guy (who doesn't seem like he's going to budge anyways), then to contribute to the Playground: make a compilation of "classic" Bard builds, indicating what they can do well (better than most every other characters). For example:

- Bardsader/Bardblade
Upsides: competent melee combatant, area buffing, battlefield controlling.
Downsides: almost useless spellcasting.
Basics: mix bard and a full BAB initiator class for fun and profit.

- IC/DFI optmized Bard
Upsides: awesome area buffing, low impact on build.
Downsides: none, might limit race choice.
Basics: Take Dragonfire Inspiration and don't ever look back.

And so on and so forth. I'm having a hard time classifying the Sublime Chord (I mean, it CAN do everything), and I can't quite remember any other build. :smallfrown: Could you guys help me out? I'm starting from scratch here, mind, and I don't have any emotional attachment to the examples or presentations above, so just give me all your opinions on how I should do this, and which information to present!

As for the conversation: weird, and seems futile indeed. Yes, an optimized wizard can do something better. Big deal, we know for over a decade that that's a pretty void argument in 3.5. As for the rogue being better then the bard: that's utterly nonsense, and a sign that the person who's arguing a) doesn't have a clue or b) is arguing for the arguing. Rogue has aprox the same (meh) chasis as the bard, with low HD, even worse saves, few more skill points. It has some interesting class features, but so has the bard, and the bard has spells as well. Spells > other stuff in 3.5. That's hardly news either.

In core 3.5, I always considered the bard to be pretty horrible class. "Can do everything a little bit" in practice often meant "can't do anything really good". And I've seen many a bard fall to his/her death, believing the flavour text that suggested it could fill (temporarely) for the fighter or barbarian. Charging to the front line, with his d6 hp, lowly AC and average constitution (because MAD).

As for the builds: I have to agree that for me, builds that include a lot of prestige classes that aren't bard-specific (JPM, abjurant champion, ur-priest) don't strike me as the best argument for the class. What I like is that with all the splat support, a bard can totally specialize in an area and do that really good (even melee), and still do other stuff. Or it can be played to be quite good in everything. A single class bard that picks good feats and spells can be a good and not too squichy combatant, a great party bufffer with even moderately optimized IC, have relevant BFC-options, and be a great skill monkey with spells that synergize well with skills (wether stealth or social stuff). That's the bard how I like to think it was intended, and that one is a good addition to almost every party.

[GreyBlack]

As for the conversation: weird, and seems futile indeed. Yes, an optimized wizard can do something better. Big deal, we know for over a decade that that's a pretty void argument in 3.5. As for the rogue being better then the bard: that's utterly nonsense, and a sign that the person who's arguing a) doesn't have a clue or b) is arguing for the arguing. Rogue has aprox the same (meh) chasis as the bard, with low HD, even worse saves, few more skill points. It has some interesting class features, but so has the bard, and the bard has spells as well. Spells > other stuff in 3.5. That's hardly news either.

In core 3.5, I always considered the bard to be pretty horrible class. "Can do everything a little bit" in practice often meant "can't do anything really good". And I've seen many a bard fall to his/her death, believing the flavour text that suggested it could fill (temporarely) for the fighter or barbarian. Charging to the front line, with his d6 hp, lowly AC and average constitution (because MAD).

As for the builds: I have to agree that for me, builds that include a lot of prestige classes that aren't bard-specific (JPM, abjurant champion, ur-priest) don't strike me as the best argument for the class. What I like is that with all the splat support, a bard can totally specialize in an area and do that really good (even melee), and still do other stuff. Or it can be played to be quite good in everything. A single class bard that picks good feats and spells can be a good and not too squichy combatant, a great party bufffer with even moderately optimized IC, have relevant BFC-options, and be a great skill monkey with spells that synergize well with skills (wether stealth or social stuff). That's the bard how I like to think it was intended, and that one is a good addition to almost every party.

Bards are the supreme buff specialists of 3.5. Taking non-bard-specific PrCs mute the power. More than anything, bards boil down to feat selection. In that way, one can create a specialist that can still contribute (see diplomancer or Inspire Courage builds). Unless you find some way to keep their strengths up when multiclassing out (e.g. Song of the White Raven), then it is generally best to keep to not splash for bard, but some other arcane spellcaster or skill monkey. However, for my money, I've been banned from the Bard. Something about the DM saying, "you can't just sit on a hill 5 miles away playing an alphorn to give your personal army an extra 4d6 fire damage."

[Hiro Quester]

In core 3.5, I always considered the bard to be pretty horrible class. "Can do everything a little bit" in practice often meant "can't do anything really good". And I've seen many a bard fall to his/her death, believing the flavour text that suggested it could fill (temporarely) for the fighter or barbarian. Charging to the front line, with his d6 hp, lowly AC and average constitution (because MAD).


Not that MAD. Maxed out Cha, then dex and con is enough. Though a str boost item doesn't hurt.

Playing a bard Sublime chord, I had a better AC than the party tank (thanks to Sirine's Grace buffing dex and Cha and adding CHA as a deflection bonus to AC).

And I could use inspire greatness played on my horn of resilience to add 3d10 plus another 50 temporary hit points. Those d6s didn't hurt much.

And thanks to inspire courage, inspire greatness, snowflake wardance, gauntlets of heartfelt blows and a few buff spells, I could have a to-hit bonus equal to the barbarian's. Doing almost as much damage as him, too, except for the fact that my dragonfire inspiration also increased his to-hit and damage.

Plus I had a wand of heroics to add on whatever fighter feats might help me or others.

Plus having greater blink active gave a 50% miss chance to every attack aimed at me.

So I may have been entering melee a couple of rounds behind the barbarian and paladin (because hanging back to sing IC, IG, and DFI, and cast Haste, and a BFC spell, or a buff spell for allies. But I wasn't a liability at the front lines.

And when the barbarian went down, I was in the front lines right next to him, casting the in-combat heal that saved his life.

So in melee a well designed and well buffed bard can totally hold his own. It's not always the best use of his skills.

But a bard beside you at the front lines, dancing and slicing enemies, while singing a battle hymn, is often just what is needed.

Edit: oh. You said in core. Yes, in core a lot of the bard goodies are missing. But as soon as you get out of core, the bard gets a lot of loving from book designers.

[Waazraath]

@Hiro Quester - Yes, core only I meant! I´m playing a non-core bard atm, lvl 12 with 10 levels bard and 2 1 level dips (warblade and cloistered cleric). I'm using partly the same stuff you mention, and indeed, then it works fine. Alter self is a pre combat long duration buff that greatly boosts my AC, in combat I can do something like use IC as a swift action and cast mirror image, or use protection devotion as a swift action and IC as a standard one, with words of creation. Generally my party is quite happy with a +5 to AC and +6 to hit an damage :smallsmile: Later rounds, it's just looking what is most neccesary: more buffs, some BFC, running up front and hitting stuff, etc.

But in core, IC is meh, a lot of other great combat options (feats, spells, etc.) aren't there... still, can be an ok skill monkey and secondary caster, as long as you don't believe the flavour text and wade into the fray.

[Doctor Despair]

Something fun that I found is that with 18 levels in Bard, 3 levels in whatever you like, and the right build, one could not just easily but consistently fascinate and subsequently cast mass suggestion on eight greater deities at once. Of course, what happens in the aftermath is much up to roleplay, but I don't think it would be unreasonable to expect you could emerge from that encounter as a replacement to one such greater deity via multiple suggestions. Just one more way bards can do great things at epic levels! Of course, a melee pump optimization could (depending on how divinity works in the DM's world) accomplish the same thing by raw damage, and a mage could do all sorts of magely shenanigans to make divine ranks obsolete, but the point stands. :p

[BWR]

This isn't true at all either. A bard is both a warrior and an arcanist. Gishy PrCs that advance and improve both aspects absolutely should be considered bardlike. Saying a prestige class isn't "bardlike" if it doesn't advance music is like saying Cavalier isn't a paladin PrC because it doesn't advance smiting, or that Beastmaster isn't a druid PrC because it doesn't advance wild shape.

It's already been demonstrated that you can build a very strong high-level character using Bard 20 or Bard 10/Virtuoso 10. But the fact that you can take a bard chassis in so many different directions is an asset, not a liability. In fact, small amounts of bard are more likely to define the flavor of a player than most other classes. A character with just a few levels of bard (e.g. Crusader 16/Bard 4) is still going to feel very bard-y, because you're going to be regularly using inspire courage and all the social skills bard enables for you. By contrast, plenty of optimized characters dip for small amounts of barbarian (for pounce), monk (for the AC bonus), fighter (for bonus feats), ranger (for fighting styles), and cleric (for domains) and then let themselves be defined by the remainder of their build. But even a small amount of bard is always a bard.

Bards are not fighter-mages, they are rogue-mages. Is an eldritch-knight suddenly a bard because it does the fighter-mage thing? Or Spellsword? Might as well say the Duskblade is the same a Bard because you get fighting and casting in one base class.
The core of the Bard is skills, magic and (most importantly) Music/Performance, not ability to hit things with a sword.
I am not arguing the fact that Bards and associated PrCs can be good, I am arguing that people trying to prove Bards are good by using non-Bard stuff are not doing a good job of åroving their point.
Using a Bard dip to prove that it is a good class doesn't work. You are only proving it is good for dipping, not on its own. Frankly, the idea of 'a small amount of bard is always a bard' is puzzling to me. You can either say that about anything, at which point it becomes meaningless, or you can say that only about the Bard in which case I would be very interested to hear your reasoning for that conclusion.
The important thing is what does the heavy lifting of the build. In your example of the Crusader/bard, what is the most important aspect of the build? What gives the most abilities and the strongest abilities? I'm guessing it's the 16 levels of Crusader, not the 4 levels of Bard
You might as well argue that Mr. Fighter 1/Wizard 19 is really a Fighter and shows the Fighter is a good class.

[Socratov]

also, for a great glass cannon build You'd do well to check out builds with Swiftblade in it. Bard is especially suited to using swiftblade.

On the bardness of bard builds, some PrC's add to bard abilities, or enforce bard as an entry (incorporating music or something). those are bardic in my book and using those diminishes nothing in terms of bardiness. then there is the mixing of classes and form there on it pretty much boils down to the following:

what makes the build work? What makes the build succesful and what tools are used to play the build? If the bard entry is the lynchpin of the build with in total more dips in other classes then levels of bard, but the bard abilities are used as the core of the character then I'd say it's a bard. If the build has more bard then anything else, but rarely uses its features but rather for its chassis to use other classes/feats tricks, then I'd say it's not (or barely) a bard. I'd say the fact that a class features a certain class in greater or lesser fashion does not make that build like the class, or unlike the class. that's the differnece between building a character to the class, or to a concept. The first will yield a lot simpleler build, and the latter will look like a monstrosity as if someone ahd scrapped 3 cars to make one. Both builds might reach the same tools, but from a greatly different perspective.

tl;dr: when judging if a build qualifies as an [insert class], apply Occam's razor: if it looks like duck, acts like a duck and quacks like a duck, odds are, it's a duck.

[tiercel]

A modestly optimized bard can serve pretty creditably in melee, at least for one or two critical fights per day, while being a solid party buffer for the others.

Consider, say, a human Bard 8.

Vanilla IC with Inspirational Boost and a Badge of Valor is popping out +4 hit / +4 damage for the whole party, which is nothing to sneer at for a party that makes attack rolls.

Alter Self to even take Troglodyte form for +6 natural armor (and other things we care about less) lasts for 80 minutes (160 minutes with a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell), so is a reasonable pre-combat buff.

On round 2, this guy can be Snowflake Wardancing with his Crystal Echoblade for 6 (BAB) + 4 (IC) + Str mod + Cha mod (SW) + 1 (weapon) to hit [+4 more as an immediate action, if he needs it, from Dungeonscape's Loresong ACF] for d8 + 4 (IC) + Str mod +1 +4 sonic (weapon). By round 3 he could swift-action-cast Bladeweave and be forcing Will saves vs dazed every round, atop damage.

And his AC is better than full plate, and he's got two good saves (Savage Bard) that he can potentially add +4 from Loresong to.

This doesn't include Song of the Heart, DFI, or being freaking Exalted; it doesn't assume Dragonball Z indefinite powerup OVER 9000 buffing periods in combat, nor abusing Alter Self for forms bettter than Troglodyte, nor does it include shenanigans like using metamagic-rod-extended Charm Monster (duration: 16 days) minions from former enemy brutes and just buffing them up with the rest of the party (and keeping charmed minions under control with Charisma checks won by high Cha, Circlet of Persuasion, and even Loresong and/or Improvisation).

And it doesn't include a single level of PrC. (Much less most of his feats.)

[Socratov]

A modestly optimized bard can serve pretty creditably in melee, at least for one or two critical fights per day, while being a solid party buffer for the others.

Consider, say, a human Bard 8.

Vanilla IC with Inspirational Boost and a Badge of Valor is popping out +4 hit / +4 damage for the whole party, which is nothing to sneer at for a party that makes attack rolls.

Alter Self to even take Troglodyte form for +6 natural armor (and other things we care about less) lasts for 80 minutes (160 minutes with a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell), so is a reasonable pre-combat buff.

On round 2, this guy can be Snowflake Wardancing with his Crystal Echoblade for 6 (BAB) + 4 (IC) + Str mod + Cha mod (SW) + 1 (weapon) to hit [+4 more as an immediate action, if he needs it, from Dungeonscape's Loresong ACF] for d8 + 4 (IC) + Str mod +1 +4 sonic (weapon). By round 3 he could swift-action-cast Bladeweave and forcing Will saves vs dazed every round.

And his AC is better than full plate, and he's got two good saves (Savage Bard) that he can potentially add +4 from Loresong to.

This doesn't include Song of the Heart, DFI, or being freaking Exalted; it doesn't assume Dragonball Z indefinite powerup OVER 9000 buffing periods in combat, nor abusing Alter Self for forms bettter than Troglodyte, nor does it include shenanigans like using metamagic-rod-extended Charm Monster (duration: 16 days) minions from former enemy brutes and just buffing them up with the rest of the party (and keeping charmed minions under control with Charisma checks won by high Cha, Circlet of Persuasion, and even Loresong and/or Improvisation).

And it doesn't include a single level of PrC. (Much less most of his feats.)

ehm, you know that badge of valour and inspirational boost aren't exactly usable in conjunction? They both require a swift action to use and since you only get 1 swift action per roundyou are bettter off using either of them instead of both.

[Grod_The_Giant]

ehm, you know that badge of valour and inspirational boost aren't exactly usable in conjunction? They both require a swift action to use and since you only get 1 swift action per roundyou are bettter off using either of them instead of both.
Badge of Valor doesn't have to be activated at the same time you start your music. It works whenever.

[Socratov]

Badge of Valor doesn't have to be activated at the same time you start your music. It works whenever.

to be fair, if you are going to use bard and start the song and not drop it while using lingering song, or using the fade out of 5 rounds. I guess it's you can't use it the next turn to strenghten a fading/lingering song? or are you planning on starting a song and keeping it up for the next round? because then you're using a full turn to only apply another +1 to the song. In that case you could start a whole different song or move or spell or anything really which would have made a better use of actions.

So, sure you can add the badge of valour's +1, but it will take an extra turn during which you can't attack, cast a spell or start another song.

Edit:

you coudl of course use them on the same turn (since badge is immedeate action), but next turn you can'tuse either of them for your next song, or any kind of swift action. I tink it's better to use DFI and IC on following turns, without the badge, but both with Inspriational boost (which beucase of its timing gets doubled by WoC) then to use the badge.

[tiercel]

you coudl of course use them on the same turn (since badge is immedeate action), but next turn you can'tuse either of them for your next song, or any kind of swift action. I tink it's better to use DFI and IC on following turns, without the badge, but both with Inspriational boost (which beucase of its timing gets doubled by WoC) then to use the badge.

I didn't touch on full IC optimization in part because of the timing mess, in part because standard DFI usually means commiting hard to the party buffer role (dedicating more feats plus at least the first two rounds of every combat), in part because, personally I've found the whole "IC stacks with itself" thing a little hinky (especially if you are talking about the Power Rangers edition, where five bards, all with different draconic heritages, stack their Nd6 damage because they are all using different energy types), and in part because of Words of Creation issues in play (because your DM may not even use/allow BoED, because in actual play your DM may not be fully liberal about what "doubles" entails, and because Exalted, by RAW, involves a Code of Conduct that makes "paladin falling" issues look lightweight).

If we are going down the rabbit hole of liberal reading of RAW, I suppose it is interesting to consider whether the immediate mental action to activate Badge of Valor actually interrupts singing (since IC doesn't require concentration per se, just continued singing). I'd always thought it did, but...

In any case, Lingering Song (but not Melodic Casting, as written) would take care of it if you feel 5 rounds is not enough -- but this is also true for DFI stacking or any other bardsong stacking (e.g. IC and IG).

The Badge of Valor is less usable if you are going for DFI stacking or if you want to use Song of the White Raven as a Bardblade/Bardsader.

The point of my vanilla example was to throw out a partial chassis that could personally enter most combats early and still had enough feats usable that you could focus on combat a bit, if that's the aim of your build.

With DFI, you're either a Silverbrow Human who doesn't mind DFI being fire, and you've taken DFI and Lingering Song (and are Exalted and have taken Words of Creation, presumably), or if you are almost any other race or want a less commonly resisted energy type you've taken Dragontouched, DFI, Draconic Heritage, and Lingering Song (and, again presumably, Words of Creation). --Probably also Extra Music, if you can fit it: if you have to play through any of the levels less than 8 or so, or if you are PrCing out of the bard class.

Also, in play every time combat starts you just go get some snacks, bathroom run, whatever because your first two rounds are usually pretty much unvarying (the only variance being in whether you think your party might want a to-hit bonus first or bonus damage dice first).

[illyahr]

Something about the DM saying, "you can't just sit on a hill 5 miles away playing an alphorn to give your personal army an extra 4d6 fire damage."

What? That's totally how it works. What does the DM think those big horns on battlements are for? :smallbiggrin: