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View Full Version : Pathfinder Paladin/Antipaladin Rework- Advice? thoughts?



Dronit
2015-12-03, 12:57 PM
I've liked the paladin for some time, but I've constantly fell onto the fact that they are impractical and they are niched to fight only certain enemies. The problem with that being is that they aren't very good at even doing their job, not unless heavily helped geared or etc (Maybe I've just been playing bare-boned gear).But i wanted to add a little to the Class, and it's counterpart, Suggestions are welcomed.


Hit Die: d10

Class Skills

The paladin's class skills are Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +2 Aura of good, divinity pool, Smite Evil
2nd +2 +3 +0 +3 lay on hands, Divinity pool ability
3rd +3 +3 +1 +3 Divine Grace,mercy
4th +4 +4 +1 +4 Channel energy, Divinity Pool ability
5th +5 +4 +1 +4 Divine bond pool ability
6th +6 +5 +2 +5 Mercy, Divinity pool ability
7th +7 +5 +2 +5 Divine Health
8th +8 +6 +2 +6 Divinity Pool Ability
9th +9 +6 +3 +6 Mercy
10th +10 +7 +3 +7 Greater Divinity Pool Ability
11th +11 +7 +3 +7 Loyalty Rewarded
12th +12 +8 +4 +8 Mercy, Divinity pool Ability
13th +13 +8 +4 +8 Faith Weapon
14th +14 +9 +4 +9 Divinity pool Ability
15th +15 +9 +5 +9 Mercy
16th +16 +10 +5 +10 Divinity Pool Ability
17th +17 +10 +5 +10 To Be Added?
18th +18 +11 +6 +11 Mercy, Divinity Pool Ability
19th +19 +11 +6 +11 To Be Added?
20th +20 +12 +6 +12 Capstone, Greatest Divinity Pool Ability


I'm not gonna be redundant with abilities everyone is familiar with, or at least i'd assume you are.
So Here goes.

At 1st level, the Paladin/Anti-paladin gains a reservoir of divine energy that he can draw upon to fuel his powers. This divine pool has a number of points equal to 2/3 his Paladin/Anti-paladin level (minimum 1) + his Charisma modifier. The pool refreshes points when the paladin prays(Rests for the day).

Smite Evil (SU)
Same as it was, except it cost 2 points of Divinity

Lay on Hands/Channel Energy
Same as it was but cost 1 point of divinity, Caveat I Tend to make Lay on Hands/Corruption Heal for 1/2 Paladin Level X Cha (Min 1) This makes it better without over shadowing the Cleric and gives more power to the Cha Stat. Also if using that form of lay on hands, it heals half the amount if you Channel

Divine Bond-Mount or Celestial/Demonic Partner using the Rules for Paladin/Anti-Paladin.

Faith Weapon
Weapon Counts as Good/Evil Law/Chaos for the purpose of DR.

Loyalty Rewarded
At 11th Level the Paladin/Anti-Paladin Divinity is increased from 3/4 to 1 Divinity per Paladin/Anti-Paladin level, and the Paladin gains DR/Good or Evil Respectively of 5+1 per 5 Divinity.

I got rid of Detect Evil, because it just seems gimmicky in concept.



Divine Pool Abilities

Extra Mercy
As the Feat

Talented Learning
instead of gaining 4+int Skill points per level, the Paladin gains 2+Cha Skill points a level (Effects are Retroactive).

Combat Training
Count as a Fighter of 3/4 of your paladin levels for Feats and also gain 1 Combat feat. If taken more then once you only get an additional combat feat. Must meet the prerequisites for the combat feats.

Mercy is for the weak.
When Smiting and spending 1 additional divinity you may apply the effects your Lay on hands/Corruption would cure or cause against the target of the smite
Divine Combat
When first taken the Paladin chooses one of the Combat styles of the ranger, With the exception that he may use the combat style in heavy armor. This can be taken multiple times but you can only take Combat style feats of the initial Combat style chosen.

Holy/Unholy Impact
Spend 4 points of Divinity to Smite gaining Cha to Hit and dealing Paladin Level X Cha on a single hit, If the attack misses the points are not spend if used on a target not deemed evil/Good (Or any form immune to your smite) the points are spent and your weapon bounces off the target not harming them.

Graceful Divinity
A Paladin gains the derring-do and opportune parry and riposte deeds from the swashbuckler's list of deeds (using Divinity as Panache)

Faith rewarded Level 4 Paladin/Anti-Paladin
May Give up a Spell to gain Divinity equal to the spell level lost, Cannot exceed Divinity greater then 2/3 Paladin Level+ Cha

Talented Tactician
May use Cha instead of Int for Combat Feats.

Explosive Smite
Spend 2 Extra points of Divinity when declaring a smite target, when striking this target the damage gained from paladin level radiates and hurts nearby enemies.

Word of Healing
Spend an Extra Point of Divinity to use Lay on Hands at a Distance (5ft Per Paladin Level)

Protect the Innocence
Redirect an Attack Made against an Ally to yourself Costs 1 Point of Divinity. (Ally Must be adjacent to you)

Divine Bond Weapon
Gain Weapon Focus with a weapon and can use 2 point from Divine Pool to enhance the weapon as the normal ability.

Aura of Courage/Cowardice
Same before, but for every point in your pool of Divinity you add an additional foot to the aura. (minimum of 5 before any effect)

Aura of Resolve/Despair Min Paladin/Anti-paladin 8
Same before, but for every point in your pool of Divinity you add an additional foot to the aura. (minimum of 5 before any effect)

Advanced Divine Pool Abilities


More to Come still adding.

Ethereal Gears
2015-12-03, 01:40 PM
...the idea of a holy warrior imbued with divine magic utterly devoted to fighting evil and protecting innocents being able to use detect evil at will strikes you as...gimicky? ...oookay? Confused...

Also, not to harp on being negative here (I like the divine pool idea and am looking forward to seeing how this concept develops), but do you seriously think that the paladins' problem is that they are not good enough at killing evil creatures? Because I can think of a lot of issues the paladin and antipaladin have as classes, and this is not one of them.

Dronit
2015-12-03, 01:52 PM
It's gimmicky in the concept largely because i personally play in games none PFS and gods tend to be more ambiguous about their goals, While largely i find that in a Black and White System this works but lets say you are a Paladin of Lolth Me and You know She's a Evil God But does the Paladin? and Let's just say for the most part Lolth is a Healing Based God at that, You would never Really now except that she is Evil because the PHB says so. I Advertise Evil Paladin that arent Anti Paladins and AntiPaladins that are Good despite lets say they are working for a God of Blood and War (Righteous war but Still BLOOD AND WAR) who really isnt all about the healing and is more about the fight.

Ethereal Gears
2015-12-03, 03:16 PM
The idea of a paladin serving an evil god or an antipaladin serving a good god seems so utterly contrary to the entire concepts of these two classes to me. I really don't see a point of "fixing" them to allow that. Might as well create a wizard "fix" that removes all magic and gives them full BAB. It would just seem a lot easier to create an entirely new class at that point, in my book.

Dronit
2015-12-03, 06:22 PM
Sure there is that, but the problem is we view paladins differently and i actually dont even really like the arbitrary creation of an anti paladin. Considering a Paladin is a Champion of a Cause or God, not inherently one way or another and the creation of an Anti-Paladin was because of the alignment restriction that was imposed later past 2e. a Evil Paladin 2E was still a paladin, he just did the Evil things, he was generally LE cause he still had a Code but he fought his God's Enemies not necessarily good, Same with 2E Good Paladins they were Generally LG, though some were CG (Freedom, or CG Gods) and a few were NG. This Anti Paladin thing that came into being later in the editions was never really necessary as there was already Evil Paladins to begin with. Saying Anti Paladin to me honestly just means Anti-Champion of a God, Now the god in question is still the paladins choice. I like pathfinders but i feel this is just one of those things they decided to do that just didn't need to be. Now if Anti-Paladin was a Class that hunted Religions i would be more up for that over what it is now. Beside what happened to Blackguards?

Dusk Raven
2015-12-03, 08:47 PM
Well, for for some time Paladins have been specifically good, which I don't mind, and I have pondered loosening the alignment restrictions (although the only deities I have who'd want Paladins are all good, and on the flip side Antipaladins only have evil benefactors). I do like the idea of a martial, semi-supernatural divine warrior, and my problems with the Paladin are that the Cleric does that job way better.

Dronit
2015-12-06, 09:31 PM
I will keep adding more onto the Page, as i'm on a deployment and the internet is very terrible here i cant constantly update, and if any suggests are made i'd like to hear them. On that note as well i've ran into a block on what to make Advanced Divinity Pool abilities, or just to make more pool abilities.

Lanth Sor
2015-12-07, 06:54 PM
Basically all notable depictions of paladins are Noble good Knights, weather the real people were actually LG or they were more ambiguous is irrelevant when you arguing the fantasy of an experience fact is rarely paid any head. I tried and could find no reference to anything in regard to non "good" paladins. Also ties to religion are spotty at best, IE holy roman empire*scoffs*. I mean I can conjure neutral ish paladins but generically speaking its just a goodie two shoes thing. If you make a Divine Champion or some other shinanigree I have no issue.

I hate when people try to impose ambiguity on something defined to include everyone or inversely define something that is intentionally ambiguous. This feels alot like the first one and for me a lot like the naive attempt at paladins in 4E. Paladins are exemplars of society so if we really want to argue we should stop calling the class paladin and call it "Knights of Holier Than Thou Art" and call it a day.

Dronit
2015-12-08, 08:13 PM
No it's fine. I am imposing ambiguity into a class, but thats cause originally they were exactly that exemplars of their God/Society and yes while they were generally only noted if they were good but thats hardly the point. Being an Exemplar of PHB Drow would make you what? Evil? Good? a Paladin? And if you want the original names for the other Paladins Even though they had the same abilities as a Paladin and they were just given archtypes or what ever.

Paladin-Good
GreyGuard-Nuetral
BlackGuard-Evil

Now they all function the exact same way as a cleric of respective allignment Greyguards choose eithor Positive or Negative while Paladin/Blackguard are restricted to their allignment. And Yes i do believe a Paladin is more of a title then a class, and being Called "Holier then Thou Art I" sounds cooler anyway.