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dragonwings
2007-06-08, 05:55 PM
Alright, I'm a big fan of trying out new characters and expanding my horizon. I mean, come on. Could I really be justified in saying I hate paladins if I've never tried one? Personally, I don't think so. Anyway, I'm trying out a new class that, at first glance, seems to be opposite my favored sorcerer ways.

Cleric.

Of course, I quickly pounced on a Cleric of Wee Jas with all sorts of story line stuffs, some feats that I never thought I'd be able to use, and a deep affection for the undead. Now, for those of you who have played clerics in the past, what advice can you offer? I'm especially new to the whole "prepare the spells in advance" thing since I typically gravitate towards the spontaneous casters. I'm also considering leaning towards doing the whole prayer thing at midnight/dusk since that just seems spiffy. What sort of things should I try to keep in mind? Could I get some help with the turn/rebuke undead thing? I've read over it several times and I still don't know if I've got the math correct in my head. Any tips, advice, comments, spells, or other things I should know would be helpful. Thanks in advance!

ocato
2007-06-08, 06:12 PM
While I cannot comment much on undead liking clerics, I too have recently started my first cleric. Here's what I've gathered.

Charisma and Wisdom are your friends. Especially since turn/rebuke attempts can be used for a lot of lovely things. Divine Metamagic is not bad at all, but is costly in turn attempts. If you intend to be a front line mash and cast style cleric, you're going to have to be careful with your attributes, since they can get spread a little thin at lower levels. L4 spell, Divine Power, pretty much negates that problem, especially if you have Quicken/Divine Metamagic Quicken. Extra Turning is not bad. With clerics, it seems, full casting prcs are chief, since you don't get much from being a cleric but spells. Speaking of spells, your domains are going to be your most important choice by far. The beauty of divine casters is that you know all spells, pretty much, and if X spell doesn't work out very well today, don't prepare it tomorrow. Buffs are going to be useful, especially stuff that works en masse, if you plan to create loads of your undead buddies.

Shoyliguad
2007-06-08, 06:20 PM
Well if you like your undead then take 5 levels of wizard, specilize in necromancy and then take focused speicalist so you can cast animate dead alot. Then take extra turning to rebuke the undead whenever you exceed your limit. Finally take 14 levels of true necromancer. This will allow you to rebuke as a 14 level cleric, cast spells as a 19 level wizard for ultimate undead summoning abilities.

Brother_Franklin
2007-06-08, 07:04 PM
First of all, welcome to the fold of Divine Casters.

I've mostly played clerics (if you couldn't tell from the name) so I have a couple of tips.

1. Remember that you have armor, hp, and a full list of spells. Therefore, you should pretty much win DnD.

2. Look at the Trickery Domain. I can't even bring myself to play a cleric without this domain it rocks so hard. As an arcanist you can apreciate the spell list you see there. (just so you know the point of domains is to get arcane spells.) Looking at your outfit, I'd say look up Nerull. Not as sexy as Wee Jas, but he gets the job done.

3. Evil clerics are good. Good clerics are better. Neutral clerics that chanell positive energy are really really cool. Basiclly the ability to sponiatusly heal is a great way to pull your backside out of a fire and not having a moral duty to others is even better. However, I doubt I can convince a black soul to turn her back on evil. :smallbiggrin:

4. Scrolls, wands, ect. are your friends. This keeps your favorite spells at hand at all times and shoud act as a nicotine patch for your spontanous casting aditction. (Also if you stay an evil cleric, go for a wand of cures.)

5. Finally, if you take my advice about tricker look up Arcane Disicple in Complete Divine.

Hope this helps.

nows7
2007-06-08, 07:44 PM
First off, Weejas is a very cool diety. Magic, Death, and Beuty? HAWT! I always picture clerics of weejas as a bit of a Femme Fatal.

Second, Vecna is the god of killing and undeath, while Weejas is more a god of death (as in passing over) and a guardian of the afterlife.

Third, She is a LN deity with only slight LE tendencies, so the choice is your's as to what you want to do as far as turn/rebuke attempts. If you are wanting to have alot of undead servants, then I suggest that you Rebuke undead to cure/bolster them; though doing so will mean you can't spontaniously heal your own allies.

greenknight
2007-06-08, 07:56 PM
Clerics are one of the incredibly powerful classes in D&D, even more so if you choose the right Domains. From Core, the ones you should try for are Luck, Magic, Protection, Travel and/or Trickery. These are good because of their Domain power, and because they give you access to powerful spells you otherwise wouldn't be able to cast. Outside of Core, you can add Celerity, Domination, Fate, Spell and Time. If you really want to focus on undead, the Deathbound and Undeath Domains are also useful. Again, what you're looking for is Domain powers and spell access. All the non-Core Domains I've mentioned can be found in Spell Compendium.

In terms of prayer time, it's always best to pick a time just after your character sleeps/rests, because any spell slots you use up in the previous 8 hours won't be available to you. If you can, try to rest in an area where interruption is unlikely. If you have the Magic Domain, a Wand of Rope Trick created as a 9th level caster should solve the problem. Having a 9th level (or higher) Wizard in the party to cast the spell should also do the trick.

As your character gets to higher levels, you won't be able to Command the more powerful undead because you need twice the number of levels the Undead has, and that counts Turning Resistance. So if your Cleric were 20th level, you could only control undead with 10HD at most (unless you're using undead like Skeletons and Zombies), which by then is pretty weak. The best use of your ability IMO is to rebuke undead and then destroy them (which makes Rebuking better than Turning, IMO). The HD limit on control is why focusing on creating undead is probably not such a good idea, since you'll just waste resources when they attack you. In fact, your Turn Undead uses might be better used to power Divine Metamagic (from Complete Divine).

The Cleric's strengths are in healing/buffing the party, melee combat (at mid to high levels) and short range spellcasting. While having a few damage spells is handy, they shouldn't be your main focus. Instead, use spells which buff you or your companions up (the classic three self buffs being Divine Favor, Divine Power and Righteous Might). Having the Extend Spell and Quicken Spell metamagic feats is almost a must, especially past 10th level. That allows you to Extend Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon so you can concentrate your wealth elsewhere, and cast a Quickened Divine Favor and regular Divine Power to buff up in a single round. The Persistant Spell feat (from Complete Arcane) is also extremely useful in combination with Divine Metamagic and Nightsticks (a magical item from Libris Mortis).

As a Cleric, you can benefit from wearing heavy armor and shields, so make good use of it to improve your AC. If you want to use a two handed weapon, get an animated shield (a real bargain since it only adds a +2 bonus). It's probably best to Fortify your armor as well. At higher levels, it might be worth dropping all that in favor of getting Bracers of Armor and a Monk's Belt if your Wisdom is really high. If you have a spare Feat, consider taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, since it works very well with your melee capability.

Aside from the items I've already mentioned and the ones which should be obvious (such as an Amulet of Wisdom), get several Strands of Prayer Beads with the Bead of Smiting removed. The +4 Caster Level you can get from the Bead of Karma alone makes it worthwhile, and the Bead of Healing is a nice bonus. Also consider having someone cast Clone on your character once you get to the higher levels - it should only cost 2,200 gp, which is much cheaper (and more reliable) than getting raised/resurrected. Gentle Repose should keep the body fresh, and you should be able to store it in a friendly temple.

You don't have many really good spells at the lower levels except for healing, buffing and item enhancement, but the higher level spells are really good. If you've chosen powerful Domains, you should find some very good spells there, and spells like Freedom of Movement, Dimensional Anchor, Slay Living, Spell Resistance, Blasphemy, Destruction, Dictum, Holy Word, Word of Chaos, Greater Spell Immunity, Gate, Implosion and Miracle (which allows you to cast any spell of 7th level or lower for no XP cost unless the spell you duplicate requires it) make the Cleric quite formidable. If you are using the Spell Compendium, the list of powerful spells available to you grows considerably (Triadspell is so cheesy it should be banned).

Since Domains are the key to gaining even more power as a Cleric, you should try to get as many extra Domains as you can. Complete Divine gives you several PrCs with bonus Domains, the best being Contemplative (two bonus domains of choice), Divine Oracle (Oracle Domain) and Seeker of the Misty Isle (Elves and Half-Elves only). Generally speaking, it's best not to sacrifice caster levels, but it might be worth it to get the Magic Domain if you've taken the Seeker of the Misty Isle PrC (but the 10th level ability of this class isn't worth the Caster Level hit, so don't take it).

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-06-08, 09:01 PM
If you plan to channel negative energy and command the undead, yet still long for the sweet taste of spontaneous healing, be neutral (while channeling negative energy). There's a feat in Complete Divine that will let you get spontaneous healing if you're not evil (Spontaneous Healer, IIRC). Suddenly, you have the best of both worlds.

huyneo
2007-06-09, 12:09 AM
There is another good thing about the comtemplative in the complete divine. It accually doesn't specift what domains you get, it just says that any domain that is related to your deity or alignment. So i went on the cheap side and took a domain from Ehlonna i think and took the celerity domain.. really cheap.
Another thing you might want to get is if you are specificly a cleric of pelor you just can just get the radiant fire feat in the Races of Destiny. This gives you Scorching Ray.... a good spell. With the Divine Metamagic you probebly want to go for the higher level things like chain, twin or quicken. Just get one of these because you want to use them a decent amount. You should get a very high AC so you can say "Bring it!" like no ones business. Clerics in my opinion can be used to conquer the world. mostly due to the amount of evil plans i have man with my cleric. OH yeah... Zen Archery + Empowered Maximized Chain Scorching Ray= XP

Dhavaer
2007-06-09, 08:09 AM
Mmm... Wee Jas.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dd_gallery/dd1/Weejas_p96.jpg

Praying at dusk would be good (full spells if you get attacked at night!) except for that recent casting limit. It's a little odd, since divine casters are limited to restoring spells every 24 hours instead of every time they rest, but in any case it means you should either pray at dawn or be nocturnal.

Turning/rebuking is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#turningChecks). It's a fairly odd mechanic, and the turning check table isn't hugely intuitive. Also, it's completely useless beyond very low levels because of how many hit dice high level undead have. Save it for things like vampires and liches. Getting a feat or something to use the turning checks would be a good idea.

Death and Magic make pretty good domains. With Magic you can use wizard wands and staves, and Death gives some very nice save or dies. The pearl-less Identify from Magic is handy, too.

Assuming you're starting at level 1, cause fear would be a decent pick. Taking an enemy out of the fight for a few rounds can be very helpful to the meatshield, who would much rather fight one goblin, then another goblin in a few rounds, instead of two goblins at once. Flanking and all that. The spontaneous healer feat should keep your friends healthy until you have the slots or gold to spare, inflict should take care of mindless things the meatshield doesn't and turning can handle undead, unless you'd prefer using magic stone. You could use a weapon, but maces aren't really very Jasite, are they? You might chip a nail.

In conclusion, here is a poem I once found somewhere in the vast, dark reaches of the internets. The title is 'A Mercenary's Love Song', but I've always associated it with the Stern Lady.


My lady sings with a sultry voice, of promises to be.
Of when she'll take me in her arms and set my spirit free.
My lady’s touch is ever near and yet so far away,
I've sought so long her sweet caress. It will be mine one day.
My lady’s eyes are watching me as I prepare for war.
She stands upon the battlefield, like so many times before.
The battle cries, a comrade dies, and falls to her embrace,
And in her arms she takes him now, unto his resting place.
Another time she'll come for me as I breathe my final breath,
And hold me for a little while; my mistress, Lady Death.

Tengu
2007-06-09, 08:23 AM
Remember, don't be a MMO-style healbot! Use your awesome buffs (and crowd control on lower levels, as Dhaevar suggested) to increase your and your party's combat abilities, and save their HP by defeating the opponents faster that way. Heal the wounds after the combat, in battle only when you see that someone's at risk of dying or falling into negatives.

If you are good or neutral, you can choose to spontaneously change any prepared spell into an appropriate Cure X Wounds spell, so you do not need to prepare those.

Dhavaer
2007-06-09, 08:26 AM
If you are good or neutral, you can choose to spontaneously change any prepared spell into an appropriate Cure X Wounds spell, so you do not need to prepare those.

Neutral clerics of Wee Jas must channel negative energy, so she'll need the Spontaneous Healer feat.
Also, *stab* for misspelling my name.

Tengu
2007-06-09, 08:30 AM
Neutral clerics of Wee Jas must channel negative energy, so she'll need the Spontaneous Healer feat.
Also, *stab* for misspelling my name.

Woah, I thought it's Dhaevar all the time!

Anyway, yeah, that's true what you said. I'm not familiar with Greyhawk a whole lot. Either take that feat then, be good (can clerics of Wee Jas be good?), or prepare them healing spell after all.

Kioran
2007-06-09, 08:44 AM
A Cleric is also a viable, If unsatisfying, option to save mediocre rolls, since as a healbot you only need one 16, a pulse and/or spellslots. Even better if you chose Pelor + Healing Domain + Augment Healing, later on chosing Extra turning and going into the Shining Example of disenfranchised Healbot Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC.
This build is veeeeeery effective at keeping my current party alive versus the DMs worst twinked out Psychic Warriors and such despite very mediocre rolls (15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 10).

Dhavaer
2007-06-09, 09:10 PM
Anyway, yeah, that's true what you said. I'm not familiar with Greyhawk a whole lot. Either take that feat then, be good (can clerics of Wee Jas be good?), or prepare them healing spell after all.

Yes, they can be good. dragonwings seems to want an undead-oriented cleric, though, so channelling negative would be most appropriate. The Death domain has some [Evil] spells, as well, which a Good Cleric couldn't use.

dragonwings
2007-06-10, 07:28 PM
Ack! I left the thread for a day and so many responses. Thankies for all who offered advice, but Dhavaer nailed it on the head. The main focus here (that I forgot to specify) is the fact that she's a LE Cleric of Wee Jas with Death and Law as her domains. I've actually got her on the hunt for her two NPC buddies who are also Clerics of Wee Jas: a LN guy with Law and Magic as domains and a LG gal with Magic and Death as her domains. Pretty much the character concept here is a desire to find the balance she has with her buddies. This character is evil and she knows it... but it drives her nuts. To get her balance back, she needs her buddies (or at least that's why she's not back at the temple doing stuff for the clergy).

It was a perfectly pretty little triangle until I read complete Divine and they handed Wee Jas more domains. Oh well.

Anyway, I should have been more specific. I need tips on -playing- a cleric, not building one.

Thanks to all who responded and I will most certainly -not- be playing a healbot. More like a hurtbot. ^.^

P.S. I'm totally putting those spine thingies in the picture of Wee Jas on her armor. Huzzah awesomeness!

Matthew
2007-06-11, 07:10 PM
So, are you in need of any more advice or is everything fine now?

dragonwings
2007-06-11, 10:01 PM
Everything is looking peachy. Though, if there are any spells that are tons of awesome that aren't in the PhB that you know off the top of your head, those would be nice. Happy casting stuff is always useful.